U.S. Foreign Policy

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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: U.S. Foreign Policy

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2 American Illusions : Being Special & World Leadership

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I came across Alex Haley the author of the Roots
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One of the most important books and television series ever to appear, Roots, galvanized the nation, and created an extraordinary political, racial, social and cultural dialogue that hadn’t been seen since the publication of Uncle Tom’s Cabin. The book sold over one million copies in the first year, and the miniseries was watched by an astonishing 130 million people. It also won both the Pulitzer Prize and the National Book Award. Roots opened up the minds of Americans of all colors and faiths to one of the darkest and most painful parts of America’s past.

Over the years, both Roots and Alex Haley have attracted controversy, which comes with the territory for trailblazing, iconic books, particularly on the topic of race. Some of the criticism results from whether Roots is fact or fiction and whether Alex Haley confused these two issues, a subject he addresses directly in the book. There is also the fact that Haley was sued for plagiarism when it was discovered that several dozen paragraphs in Roots were taken directly from a novel, The African, by Harold Courlander, who ultimately received a substantial financial settlement at the end of the case.

But none of the controversy affects the basic issue. Roots fostered a remarkable dialogue about not just the past, but the then present day 1970s and how America had fared since the days portrayed in Roots. Vanguard Press feels that it is important to publish Roots: The 30th Anniversary Edition to remind the generation that originally read it that there are issues that still need to be discussed and debated, and to introduce to a new and younger generation, a book that will help them understand, perhaps for the first time, the reality of what took place during the time of Roots.

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In what respects is the book interesting ?


There is an ongoing illusion as to the centrality of the western world. 20 or 25 countries designated as the West among the world’s 193 countries.

The public may assume that we should catch the West, which is a false assumption, when we reach west, our identities are victimized. I most favor a Chinese saying that ‘let flourish thousands of flowers; a garden with only a single flower would not be a garden’. The mentality emerged out of the crusade, in fact it was rooted in ancient Greece which assumed that they were different. Following that, colonialism came; the spirit of conquest was quite high among Europeans. The kings had embarked on conquest of faraway lands before, but they had nothing to do with the identity of the defeated lands and only demanded tributes. Colonialism though, constructed the defeated countries in a way they favored. For example, in India local people was cotton farmers, the British colonialism forced them not to cultivate cotton. They imposed on the locals inhumane practices. Colonialism is a dark chapter of humanity, which continued in the form of imperialism.


How are these two (slavery and capitalism) related?

Slavery was rather an old phenomenon, with long history behind. Capitalism is a recent phenomenon, about 300 years of age. In ancient Rome, slaves were part of the Roman Empire, working in mines of salt. However, we should admit that slavery was also practiced in northern Africa by Arabs, but in small scales. But the US has extended the slavery into a profitable trade. With the rise of capitalism slavery dwindled and instead, now workers from the laity received daily wages. Slaves of course had had no rights ever. When a slave family borne children they were also treated as slaves owned by their master. During the feudal age in Europe, the slavery was practiced, and when capitalism came, workers, weekly holidays, working hours, and .etc, were created. A feature of slavery is fostering slaves. An objection often raised against the modern period is that they educate people and they steal them, brain drain. For example in India, or in Iran, elites and geniuses are the good examples. Now, a mentality in the US has been finding popularity that the young age was better for self-indulgence. They would ask why they would waste time in education. They would recruit employees from other countries for example from India and other countries, which is called by many a type of slavery. Other types of slavery were also practiced such as prostitution in eastern European countries (Albania).

What changes have been wrought in the cruelties by Dominance against the public in poor countries?

The people in the US have two illusions, which of course may not be irrelevant. First is that they are special. Second the mentality governing part of public and the government is that they could take into their own hands the fate of other people of the world. In fact, they are right, since they provide the world with great technologies and industries. The US has created an imaginary enemy as Islam to keep this mentality alive and in other countries; it would call other people for accepting US support. This is also an illusion.

Many revolutions have taken place such as French Revolution, but Islamic Revolution in Iran was greater revolution, in terms of the popularity, and it reverberated in faraway lands from Indonesia to Mauritania. The pre-Revolution system of government had been extirpated. The future events indicated that Revolution in Iran was in harmony with the future, that is, the end of the Cold War and also end of bipolar world.

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:lol: :lol:


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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: U.S. Foreign Policy

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Doc wrote:.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

Khomeini throw a monkey wrench into all this

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There is no way the US did not know what Khomeini was up too.

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:lol: :lol: .. shows either how naive America, one way or other .. either trusting Khameini, or thinking Iranians idio*ts

Doc wrote:.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.
Khomeini, Iran, only delayed western plan

After things stabilized with Iranian Ayatollahs, Bush continued with the plan .. all was prepared during Clinton time, military was equipped to that kind of warfare and positioned, pulling an inside Job 9/11 fell to W.Bush watch .. Bush had to supervise 9/11 inside job .. Iraq, Afghanistan followed .. Libya, Syria and and and .. Turkey participated in that game, Kemalist generals sitting in Jail now ( :lol: ) on phony charges (CIA delivered the info)

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AZ if this is going to turn into a idiotic conspiracy theory debate save the electronics I am not going to continue.

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Would have you believed if a yr ago Azari had said all what is now known re "Snowden" and NSA ? ? ?

Matter of fact, 2 yrs ago, after I watched a clip in uTube an Iranians revolutionary General saying (in farsi) "exactly" what now Snowden saying, I posted here in this fora all .. was ridiculed and transferred to "conspiracy Thread"

Well,

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Re: U.S. Foreign Policy

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Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Doc wrote:.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

Khomeini throw a monkey wrench into all this

.
There is no way the US did not know what Khomeini was up too.

.

:lol: :lol: .. shows either how naive America, one way or other .. either trusting Khameini, or thinking Iranians idio*ts
actually I was referring to the Carter admin :D

Doc wrote:.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.
Khomeini, Iran, only delayed western plan

After things stabilized with Iranian Ayatollahs, Bush continued with the plan .. all was prepared during Clinton time, military was equipped to that kind of warfare and positioned, pulling an inside Job 9/11 fell to W.Bush watch .. Bush had to supervise 9/11 inside job .. Iraq, Afghanistan followed .. Libya, Syria and and and .. Turkey participated in that game, Kemalist generals sitting in Jail now ( :lol: ) on phony charges (CIA delivered the info)

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AZ if this is going to turn into a idiotic conspiracy theory debate save the electronics I am not going to continue.

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Would have you believed if a yr ago Azari had said all what is now known re "Snowden" and NSA ? ? ?[/quote]

Would you believe that I knew what someone like Snowden could say 10 years ago simply by knowing what could be done?
Matter of fact, 2 yrs ago, after I watched a clip in uTube an Iranians revolutionary General saying (in farsi) "exactly" what now Snowden saying, I posted here in this fora all .. was ridiculed and transferred to "conspiracy Thread"

Well,

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Again there is nothing that Snowden said that surprises me. Big Data companies have been doing most of this for years. What Snowden has described used to be called echelon. National governments will do whatever then can do and very many can do.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: U.S. Foreign Policy

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Doc wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Doc wrote:.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

Khomeini throw a monkey wrench into all this

.
There is no way the US did not know what Khomeini was up too.

.

:lol: :lol: .. shows either how naive America, one way or other .. either trusting Khomeini, or thinking Iranians idio*ts



actually I was referring to the Carter admin :D


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I meant carter administration too .. they either (2B polite) too naive trusting Khomeini, or thinking Iranians idio*ts

Doc wrote:.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

Again there is nothing that Snowden said that surprises me. Big Data companies have been doing most of this for years. What Snowden has described used to be called echelon. National governments will do whatever then can do and very many can do.

.

Importance of Snowden revelation is not that NSA listening to your phone or reading your mail

Importance is NSA hacking Petrobras server copying positions of offshore oil fields and passing it to Exxon

and

Brits stabbing Germans and French in the back, Waterloo again .. Brits now not part of Europe anymore .. and .. German public turning away from America-UK-Canada-Australia .. Europe decoupling from you guys, leaning east

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Re: U.S. Foreign Policy

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From Tehran to Tokyo, U.S. Geo-Strategic Shifts in Motion

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WASHINGTON, Nov 29 2013 (IPS) – From the Middle East to the East China Sea, the last week’s events have offered a particularly vivid example of the much-heralded shift in foreign policy priorities under the administration of President Barack Obama.

Just four days ago, the U.S. and its P5+1 partners (U.S., Britain, France, Russia, and China plus Germany) announced a historic agreement with Iran on its nuclear programme, an accord that many analysts believe could pave the way for an eventual strategic rapprochement between Washington and Tehran.

Predictably, the accord came under sharp criticism from Washington’s closest Mideast allies, especially Israel and its hawkish supporters here, as the latest and most worrisome example of Obama’s “weakness” and “appeasement” in dealing with Washington’s deadliest foes.

Just two days later, the administration sent two B-52 bombers over disputed islands in the East China Sea to demonstrate its solidarity with its East Asian allies in defiance of Beijing’s declaration earlier in the week of a new “air defence identification zone” (ADIZ) over the area.

That show of force drew praise from, among others, the ultra-hawkish Wall Street Journal which two days before had led the chorus of criticism against the Iran deal.

In the meantime, Obama’s national security adviser, Susan Rice, flew to Kabul to personally warn President Hamid Karzai that Washington was prepared to abandon Afghanistan to its fate after 2014 unless he signs a just-concluded long-term bilateral security agreement by Dec. 31 that would keep as many as 10,000 U.S. troops to train and advise the Afghan army and carry out missions against Al-Qaeda and its affiliates.

Taken together, the three events dramatised Washington’s eagerness to extricate itself militarily from more than a decade of war in the Greater Middle East and “pivot” its strategic focus and resources more toward the Asia/Pacific and its highly complex relationships with China and key U.S. allies there.

Because of Washington’s status as the world’s sole military superpower, such a shift necessarily reverberates strongly throughout the affect regions, forcing lesser powers to adjust their stance as the tectonic plates if geo-politics shift beneath them.

Those reverberations were most clearly audible in the Middle East where Iran’s 1979 revolution re-inforced pre-existing U.S. alliances with Israel and Saudi Arabia, in particular, and transformed Tehran from erstwhile strategic partner to the region’s Public Enemy Number One.

For the succeeding 34 years, Israel and the Sunni-led Gulf states enjoyed virtually unconditional U.S. support, even when their policies and actions actually undermined Washington interests – be it Israel’s settlements in the Occupied Territories or aggressive Saudi export of Wahabism – in the region. With Washington’s superpower status tipping the scales, the balance of power weighed heavily in their favour.

The accord struck between the P5+1 and Iran, however tentative, could alter that balance in fundamental ways, particularly if it develops into closer cooperation between Washington and Tehran on key issues extending from the eastern Mediterranean to the South Asian subcontinent.

For Saudi Arabia, whose government offered faint praise for the agreement but whose media has been filled with fear and trembling, the accord is particularly ominous.

“The Saudis are not merely concerned about Iran’s nuclear ambitions,” wrote Gregory Gause, a Saudi expert at the University of Vermont, in The New Yorker Tuesday. “They have a more profound fear: that geopolitical trends in the Middle East are aligning against them, threatening both their regional stature and their domestic security.

“The Saudis see an Iran that is dominant in Iraq and Lebanon, holding onto its ally in Syria, and now forging a new relationship with Washington – a rival, in short, without any obstacles to regional dominance,” according to Gause.

As for Israel, its military primacy – particularly if the interim accord blossoms into a comprehensive agreement that would effectively preclude Tehran from obtaining a nuclear weapon – is assured for the foreseeable future.

But it, too, could be negatively affected by any rapprochement between the U.S. and Iran, if for no other reason than the defusing of longstanding tensions over Tehran’s nuclear programme could refocus international attention on Israel’s occupation of Palestinian territory.

Moreover, given its relatively well-educated population of 80 million, as well as its abundant oil and gas reserves, Iran “has far more power potential than any of the other states in the region,” noted Stephen Walt, a top international relations expert at HarvardUniversity, on his foreign-policy.com blog.

Israel and Saudi Arabia are “worried that a powerful Iran would over time exert greater influence in the region, in all the ways that major powers do,” he wrote. “From the perspective of Tel Aviv and Riyadh, the goal is to try to keep Iran in a box for as long as possible – isolated, friendless, and artificially weakened.”

U.S. rapprochement with Iran and Tehran’s integration into a revised regional security structure, on the other hand, could greatly benefit Washington’s own foreign policy objectives at both the regional and global level.

Regionally, not only would such moves eliminate the possibility of yet another U.S. war against a Muslim country. Properly handled – meaning in close consultation with Washington’s current allies – they could also help quell the broader Sunni-Shia conflict that has wrought disaster in Syria and increasingly threatens to destabilise the entire region.

Over the last year – and especially since it became clear that Syrian President Bashar al-Assad had, with Tehran’s support, far more staying power than previously thought – the administration appears to have concluded that it actually needs Iran’s co-operation to stabilise the region (a conclusion seemingly shared by its ally, Turkey, which has moved quickly in recent weeks toward its own rapprochement with Iran).

Indeed, an intensification and spread of the Sunni-Shia conflict seriously threatens Obama’s strategy of extricating the U.S. from the region – or, more precisely, resuming the role of “off-shore balancer” that it played with considerable success from 1945 to 1990, according to Walt. As the civil war in Syria has shown, Iran, despite its isolation and weakened economy, remains influential enough to spoil those hopes.

But cooperation with Iran as part of a larger off-shore balancing strategy at the regional level is also critical to Obama’s larger strategy of implementing his Asian “pivot”. Its urgency was demonstrated by this week’s Chinese ADIZ declaration, the latest escalation of tensions between Beijing and its neighbours, most importantly an increasingly nationalistic Japan with which Washington has a mutual defence treaty.

Since the pivot – or “rebalancing” – was first announced by then-Secretary of State Hillary Clinton two years ago, its credibility has suffered from the perception, particularly among Asian analysts themselves, that Washington remained too preoccupied with the Greater Middle East – including Afghanistan, the pressure to intervene in Syria, and, above all, the threat of war with Iran – to be taken seriously.

But, taken in combination, September’s last-minute U.S.-Russian accord that effectively averted a U.S. strike against Syria, last week’s nuclear agreement with Iran, and Rice’s message to Karzai clearly convey the message Obama is indeed determined to minimise U.S. military commitments and resources in the region to free them up for use elsewhere.

In that context, Tuesday’s B-52 flights over the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands appeared designed to highlight that impression.

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Doc
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Re: U.S. Foreign Policy

Post by Doc »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Doc wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Doc wrote:.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

Khomeini throw a monkey wrench into all this

.
There is no way the US did not know what Khomeini was up too.

.

:lol: :lol: .. shows either how naive America, one way or other .. either trusting Khomeini, or thinking Iranians idio*ts



actually I was referring to the Carter admin :D


.

I meant carter administration too .. they either (2B polite) too naive trusting Khomeini, or thinking Iranians idio*ts
Go with the former rather than the latter

Doc wrote:.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

Again there is nothing that Snowden said that surprises me. Big Data companies have been doing most of this for years. What Snowden has described used to be called echelon. National governments will do whatever then can do and very many can do.

.

Importance of Snowden revelation is not that NSA listening to your phone or reading your mail

Importance is NSA hacking Petrobras server copying positions of offshore oil fields and passing it to Exxon

and

Brits stabbing Germans and French in the back, Waterloo again .. Brits now not part of Europe anymore .. and .. German public turning away from America-UK-Canada-Australia .. Europe decoupling from you guys, leaning east

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Again AZ None of this surprises me. It doesn't surprise anyone that has been paying attention. With the communications revolution there has been a revolution in spying. Whether it is spying on other nations or much worse spying on the lives of others within nations
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Re: U.S. Foreign Policy

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Poor (American) Joe , poor Joe



Olmert says, Israel tells American President what to do :


" It is possible to stand on every platform and tell the president of the United States 'you do what we think since if not, we will do all sorts of things.'
Is there one president who can accept these warnings that came from Jerusalem ?
Is this seriou s? "



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Olmert also claimed that Netanyahu openly intervened against Obama in the U.S. presidential elections last year, a move he termed a "historic mistake." He also attacked Netanyahu's wooing of Russia, and asked rhetorically: "Will Putin give us $3 billion in military aid a year?"

..

etanyahu responded to Olmert on Sunday night saying he will not "remain silent" in the face of threats against Israel only to "get a pat on the back by the international community."

"In contrast to the past, we have a clear voice among the nations, and we will raise it in order to warn of the danger in time," Netanyahu said during his visit to Rome, Italy.

Netanyahu warned that the international sanctions regime on Iran is starting to fall apart "rapidly" in the wake of the deal with world powers in Geneva.

"If nothing is done swiftly, the sanctions regime might collapse, and years of efforts will be wasted without anything in return," he said.

Geneva deal is a 'moral defeat'

Responding to Olmert's criticism of Netanyahu, Former minister MK Tzachi Hanegbi (Likud), who also took part in the panel, said Olmert's speech "is more fitting for a party meeting than for a research institute. It was a political attack. We forgot that [Iranian President Hassan] Rohani exists, and Netanyahu is the enemy." Hanegbi and Olmert were at odds as to whether Israel is aware of all the details of the Geneva deal. Olmert said that there are secret understandings between the sides that Israel isn't aware of, while Hanegbi said that Israel is familiar with the full picture.

Hanegbi accused the West of surrendering and termed the Geneva deal a "moral defeat," as it allows Iran to continue enriching uranium. "Iran did not give in on any single issue that has any value or long term significance," Hanegbi added.

"According to the agreement it would take only several weeks in order to re-accumulate the necessary amount of uranium needed for non-military needs. These agreements do not alter Iran's ability to rush forward and produce a nuclear bomb when it decides to do so. Iran wasn't required to demolish even one of the sites it established secretly, and won the West's recognition of its right to enrich uranium. Indeed, Iran halted its drive to achieve nuclear weapons for six months, but this has no significance, since it already covered most of the distance and is only a small step away from nuclear capability."

Hanegbi said that "according to estimates in Israel, easing sanctions will benefit Iran's economy twice as much than estimated by the U.S. administration. The only move that worked, the sanctions, have been significantly weakened by the Geneva deal.

"At present, we must carry out a double move: To see to it that existing sanctions are observed, and that the U.S. Congress will adopt a decision supporting further sanctions to be leveled if Iran violates the agreement or if it collapses. Israel must make its voice clearly heard. Ours is not a lone voice in the wilderness. Our position has wide support in Congress, am

..

ong European powers and with our neighboring countries."

The head of the hosting institute, Maj. Gen. (res.) Amos Yadlin said that "Several years ago, Iran became a state on the verge of nuclear ability. It developed abilities for a decade without anyone stopping it. It is only a decision and short time period away from [nuclear ability]. This is a sad, problematic fact, but the Geneva agreement shouldn't carry the blame for that."

The former Military Intelligence chief said that "Israel must have prepared itself for the possibility of a strike on Iran," differing from Olmert's opinion that huge funds were wasted on the project. Yadlin said that the investment could serve other security needs.

..

Olmert also said Netanyahu's Iran policy put an undue financial strain on Israel, criticizing the NIS 10 Billion spent on preparations for a possible attack on Iran.

"This is money that was wasted," Olmert said. "If the State of Israel ever decidedact on its threats this money will not change anything, but it has great significance as to the state's budget."

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:lol:



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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: U.S. Foreign Policy

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CNN : It's not like we had a whole lot of good choices

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"We have accepted Iranian uranium enrichment," Hayden said ..

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"It's not like we had a whole lot of good choices," Hayden told Chris Wallace on "Fox News Sunday."

While Hayden said the accord with Tehran changed "the redline that we used to have," he admitted the agreement does give the world an opportunity to prevent Iran from producing nuclear weapons. The former National Security Agency chief added that, although Iranian President Hassan Rouhani and Foreign Minister Javad Zarif may not be moderates, the pair might still be "the best deal we can get in terms of interlocutors within the Islamic Republic."

"We have hit the pause button," Hayden said. "Now we've got to negotiate hitting the delete button."

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Folks , "Grand Bargain" is the price for the "delete button"

A compresensive understadning, BARGAIN, with West .. if so, it's smoooooth sailin


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Re: U.S. Foreign Policy

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Doc wrote:
manolo wrote:Folks,

There are some people who complain about Obama continuing a Bush foreign policy that they didn't complain about.

I wonder why?

Alex.
Obama has gone far beyond Bush, IE Obama takes no prisoners.
Obama has caused far fewer civilian deaths, fewer US military casualties, and fewer deaths overall, than Bush II. The Obama administration also doesn't openly promote torture, though I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out torture was still employed in certain cases. But the Obama administration ramped up the drone program to unprecedented levels, and introduced the alarming practices of 1) killing its own citizens, and 2) declaring that all victims of US attacks within a certain age group were automatically "militants" and guilty of something that required their obliteration, no additional evidence required.

So there are pros and cons on both sides, but both are war criminals.
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Re: U.S. Foreign Policy

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Doc wrote:Again there is nothing that Snowden said that surprises me.
Me either. Are you happy about it? Or do you just feel powerless to do anything to prevent it via your democratic or legal systems?
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Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:Again there is nothing that Snowden said that surprises me.
Me either. Are you happy about it? Or do you just feel powerless to do anything to prevent it via your democratic or legal systems?
My feelings are very mixed. No one elected Snowden I consider him a traitor. However I have been pro-privacy as long as I can remember. I am not so worried about international spying as I am about intranational spying on a countries own citizens. That is the surest path to totalitarianism there is. Just watch the film "The lives of others to understand what I mean.

When a democratic government broadly spies on its own citizens it nearly inherent that that democracy cannot survive long term. There end up being no checks and balances No one to watch the watchers, Not to mention Big Data companies being in a gold rush to dig up every detail they can about the lives of of others.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Re: U.S. Foreign Policy

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Doc wrote:.

No one elected Snowden I consider him a traitor.

.

Something " WRONG " is happening .. somebody reports it .. why should that somebody be a traitor ? ?

You said Snowden had signed a confidentiality clause

Yes, he had signed

but

that confidentiality clause not valid for "WRONG" things

All German SS officers had signed confidentiality clause, would they reporting those bad things consitutute they being a traitor ? ? ?

Traitor is only when one publicize "RIGHT" secrets .. "WRONG" secrets have no right for confidentiality .. otherwise, a nation, exactly what America now doing, can stamp everything "confidential" or "top secret", and, even if "wrong" or "war crime" or "against human right" and and, and nobody could report on them as they "top secret" .. if that would hold, all Waffen-SS officers could have said what they did was "classified top secret" and could not report or even disobey

Doc, first you must decide whether what Snowden did was morally right or wrong .. after that you can say he traitor or hero

Snowden not elected !!! what has this to do whether he elected ? ?

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Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Doc wrote:.

No one elected Snowden I consider him a traitor.

.

Something " WRONG " is happening .. somebody reports it .. why should that somebody be a traitor ? ?

You said Snowden had signed a confidentiality clause

Yes, he had signed

but
But nothing he signed it knowing full well he was going to break it.
that confidentiality clause not valid for "WRONG" things
Who elected him judge of "WRONG" things for everyone else?[/quote]


All German SS officers had signed confidentiality clause, would they reporting those bad things consitutute they being a traitor ? ? ?[/quote]

I seriously doubt any German SS officers signed confidentiality agreements. your further justifications are moot propaganda as far as I am concerned
Traitor is only when one publicize "RIGHT" secrets .. "WRONG" secrets have no right for confidentiality .. otherwise, a nation, exactly what America now doing, can stamp everything "confidential" or "top secret", and, even if "wrong" or "war crime" or "against human right" and and, and nobody could report on them as they "top secret" .. if that would hold, all Waffen-SS officers could have said what they did was "classified top secret" and could not report or even disobey

Doc, first you must decide whether what Snowden did was morally right or wrong .. after that you can say traitor or hero

Snowden not elected !!! what has this to do whether he elected ? ? .
The elected represent by consent. The self appointed represent only their own view. Jack Ruby thought he would be hailed as a hero for killing Oswald. He like Snowden was nothing but a vigilante.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Re: U.S. Foreign Policy

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Doc wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.
that confidentiality clause not valid for "WRONG" things
Who elected him judge of "WRONG" things for everyone else?
.



We, the world public opinion, we the people, we are the judge

If we judge those things Snowden publicized are "WRONG", if "We the people" decide this, than he is HERO

If "we the people" judge those things he publicized are "RIGHT" than Snowden is a traitor

you can not have the cake and eat it too

Either those things are WRONG, than Snowden is an Hero .. or they "RIGHT", in that case he a traitor as you say

make your choice

and

re Waffen-SS officers, FYI, all those bad things were top top secret, Germans could rightly argue they did not know .. so , if an SS-officer would come out and say those bad things happen, would he be a traitor, seems you saying yes

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Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Doc wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.
that confidentiality clause not valid for "WRONG" things
Who elected him judge of "WRONG" things for everyone else?
.



We, the world public opinion, we the people, we are the judge

If we judge those things Snowden publicized are "WRONG", if "We the people" decide this, than he is HERO

If "we the people" judge those things he publicized are "RIGHT" than Snowden is a traitor

you can not have the cake and eat it too

Either those things are WRONG, than Snowden is an Hero .. or they "RIGHT", in that case he a traitor as you say

make your choice

and
And nothing. Snowden stole American secrets not world secrets. If you can show that every nation that has the ability to spy is not spying then you have something to talk about. But you can't because for no other reason than it is not true that they are not spying.
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Over Hyped Lying Son of a Bitch Eating Nobel Prize Winner...

Post by monster_gardener »

manolo wrote:Folks,

There are some people who complain about Obama continuing a Bush foreign policy that they didn't complain about.

I wonder why?

Alex.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Alex Manolo the ethinker.
There are some people who complain about Obama continuing a Bush foreign policy that they didn't complain about.

I wonder why?
Payback for Hype, Hubris & Overkill play a large role.....

IIRC no one claimed that George W.W. the Bush ;) was St. George, St. Augustine or St. Francis........ :roll: *


While obama, the Lying Creature from the Chicago Lagoon, was hyped like he was the Messiah :shock: : the UNDESERVED Nobel Peace Prize & much more.

Liberal/Progressives loved to chant that "Bush Lied & People Died"..........

And complained how awful it was that prisoners were being kept at Gitmo......


So it is delicious to confront them with the fact that their Hope & Change Boy is a more Blatant liar than Bush and is much more intimately A Killer who DOES NOT TAKE PRISONERS! ;) :twisted:

Seems that the policies are NOT necessarily the same........ ;)
Officials Confirm: Obama Decides Who Lives and Who Dies. President Has Personally Ordered Every Single Drone Strike
http://news.antiwar.com/2012/05/29/offi ... -who-dies/


*Recalling with amusement the numbskulls in the Main Stream Media gushing that they were so glad that Vice President Dick Cheny had "gravitas" :lol: :lol:
only to later hate & fear him more than Bush as "Darth Cheny" :twisted: :lol:
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: U.S. Foreign Policy

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Doc wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Doc wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.
that confidentiality clause not valid for "WRONG" things
Who elected him judge of "WRONG" things for everyone else?
.



We, the world public opinion, we the people, we are the judge

If we judge those things Snowden publicized are "WRONG", if "We the people" decide this, than he is HERO

If "we the people" judge those things he publicized are "RIGHT" than Snowden is a traitor

you can not have the cake and eat it too

Either those things are WRONG, than Snowden is an Hero .. or they "RIGHT", in that case he a traitor as you say

make your choice

and
And nothing. Snowden stole American secrets not world secrets. If you can show that every nation that has the ability to spy is not spying then you have something to talk about. But you can't because for no other reason than it is not true that they are not spying.

.

You basically saying American government doing nothing wrong therefore those things Snowden lay open were "RIGHT".

NSA braking into Petrobrass server copying files and passing to Exxon is OK in your view because French might do it too (if they could)

And

Germans should get used to it whether they like or not

well,

fair enough, that clear things

.
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Re: Over Hyped Lying Son of a Bitch Eating Nobel Prize Winne

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

monster_gardener wrote:
manolo wrote:

Officials Confirm: Obama Decides Who Lives and Who Dies. President Has Personally Ordered Every Single Drone Strike

.


That is continuation of Bush presidential directive .. any bombing, whether by planes or drones, that could cause civilian casualty must be approved case by case by president, Bush or Obama .. continuation of same policy

Only different was Bush had put a "tolerance" level, xx number of civilian for each terrorist was OK , more than xx number Bush had to sign .. seems Obama lowered that x and has to sign all of them
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Ibrahim
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Re: U.S. Foreign Policy

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:Again there is nothing that Snowden said that surprises me.
Me either. Are you happy about it? Or do you just feel powerless to do anything to prevent it via your democratic or legal systems?
My feelings are very mixed. No one elected Snowden I consider him a traitor. However I have been pro-privacy as long as I can remember.
Who elected the NSA to spy on their Internet habits and listen to their phone calls? Who did Snowden "betray" the US to?
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Re: U.S. Foreign Policy

Post by Doc »

Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:Again there is nothing that Snowden said that surprises me.
Me either. Are you happy about it? Or do you just feel powerless to do anything to prevent it via your democratic or legal systems?
My feelings are very mixed. No one elected Snowden I consider him a traitor. However I have been pro-privacy as long as I can remember.
Who elected the NSA to spy on their Internet habits and listen to their phone calls? Who did Snowden "betray" the US to?
Elected official representatives. Snowden is a vigilante. He could have made his compliant know to his congressman for example But instead he ran away to China then Russia. Someone compared him to MartinLuther King. But King went to jail in his protest. Snowden wanted to be a rock star. Can't do that from jail.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: U.S. Foreign Policy

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Doc wrote:.

Snowden is a vigilante. He could have made his compliant know to his congressman for example But instead he ran away to China then Russia. Someone compared him to MartinLuther King. But King went to jail in his protest. Snowden wanted to be a rock star. Can't do that from jail.

.

Yes, true, Snowden could have done what he did but stayed in US .. would have been very difficult as he would have been silenced immediately and nobody would have heard from him anymore, under pretext of national security .. his court and everything else would be "classified" .. result would be we would not know even 1% of what we know now and will know more in coming months and years .. all his data would have been confiscated

Snowden is a HERO and villain is the American Congress and Senate that approved such things and classified as top secret .. How could Congress and Senate representing "We the People" approve such wide spread spying worldwide, breaking into Petrobras servers and German research institutions and listening to Merkel cell phone and and and .. The congress and Senate intelligence comity neglected their fiduciary duty to the American people


.
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Doc
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Re: U.S. Foreign Policy

Post by Doc »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Doc wrote:.

Snowden is a vigilante. He could have made his compliant know to his congressman for example But instead he ran away to China then Russia. Someone compared him to MartinLuther King. But King went to jail in his protest. Snowden wanted to be a rock star. Can't do that from jail.

.

Yes, true, Snowden could have done what he did but stayed in US .. would have been very difficult as he would have been silenced immediately and nobody would have heard from him anymore, under pretext of national security .. his court and everything else would be "classified" .. result would be we would not know even 1% of what we know now and will know more in coming months and years .. all his data would have been confiscated
I already knew what they were capable of knowing because it is mostly already being done and has been done for decadesfame
Snowden is a HERO and villain is the American Congress and Senate that approves such things and classified as top secret .. How could Congress and Senate representing "We the People" approve such wide spread spying worldwide, breaking into Petrobras servers and German research institutions and listening to Merkel cell phone and and and .. The congress and Senate intelligence comity neglected their fiduciary duty to the American people
.
He could have very easily gone to a congressman that objects to the government surveillance. No Snowden is a self aggrandizing vigilante. He only wants fame to be viewed a hero y adoring throgs of people
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Re: U.S. Foreign Policy

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Truth is never criminal.

Falsity is always criminal. An oath under God to support falsity is blasphemy.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: U.S. Foreign Policy

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:.

Truth is never criminal.

Falsity is always criminal. An oath under God to support falsity is blasphemy.

.

Bravo ,


seconded


.
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Doc
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Re: U.S. Foreign Policy

Post by Doc »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:Truth is never criminal.

Falsity is always criminal. An oath under God to support falsity is blasphemy.
OK then the truth was that Saddam tortured children to coerse their parents into submission to his will, Therefore those that were against his over throw by Bush are criminal in their denials of the truth.

IE it is all in the eye of the beholder PERIOD. :D
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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