The Case for Reparations

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Zack Morris
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The Case for Reparations

Post by Zack Morris »

EDIT: Link to article.

An unexpectedly powerful piece by Ta-Nehisi Coates on the subject of the United States' brutalization and institutionalized subjugation of blacks. Rather than becoming mired in the technicalities of reparations and what form they would take, Mr. Coates attempts to make a powerful moral case for it. Most Americans are of course unaware of the extent of the systematic persecution of blacks and the extent to which it aided white prosperity. Conservatives would like to forget it and, in Coates' words, believe "that if you stab a black person 10 times, the bleeding stops and the healing begins the moment the assailant drops the knife."

Image
The state’s regime partnered robbery of the franchise with robbery of the purse. Many of Mississippi’s black farmers lived in debt peonage, under the sway of cotton kings who were at once their landlords, their employers, and their primary merchants. Tools and necessities were advanced against the return on the crop, which was determined by the employer. When farmers were deemed to be in debt—and they often were—the negative balance was then carried over to the next season. A man or woman who protested this arrangement did so at the risk of grave injury or death. Refusing to work meant arrest under vagrancy laws and forced labor under the state’s penal system.

Well into the 20th century, black people spoke of their flight from Mississippi in much the same manner as their runagate ancestors had. In her 2010 book, The Warmth of Other Suns, Isabel Wilkerson tells the story of Eddie Earvin, a spinach picker who fled Mississippi in 1963, after being made to work at gunpoint. “You didn’t talk about it or tell nobody,” Earvin said. “You had to sneak away.”

When Clyde Ross was still a child, Mississippi authorities claimed his father owed $3,000 in back taxes. The elder Ross could not read. He did not have a lawyer. He did not know anyone at the local courthouse. He could not expect the police to be impartial. Effectively, the Ross family had no way to contest the claim and no protection under the law. The authorities seized the land. They seized the buggy. They took the cows, hogs, and mules. And so for the upkeep of separate but equal, the entire Ross family was reduced to sharecropping.

This was hardly unusual. In 2001, the Associated Press published a three-part investigation into the theft of black-owned land stretching back to the antebellum period. The series documented some 406 victims and 24,000 acres of land valued at tens of millions of dollars. The land was taken through means ranging from legal chicanery to terrorism. “Some of the land taken from black families has become a country club in Virginia,” the AP reported, as well as “oil fields in Mississippi” and “a baseball spring training facility in Florida.”

Clyde Ross was a smart child. His teacher thought he should attend a more challenging school. There was very little support for educating black people in Mississippi. But Julius Rosenwald, a part owner of Sears, Roebuck, had begun an ambitious effort to build schools for black children throughout the South. Ross’s teacher believed he should attend the local Rosenwald school. It was too far for Ross to walk and get back in time to work in the fields. Local white children had a school bus. Clyde Ross did not, and thus lost the chance to better his education.

Then, when Ross was 10 years old, a group of white men demanded his only childhood possession—the horse with the red coat. “You can’t have this horse. We want it,” one of the white men said. They gave Ross’s father $17.

“I did everything for that horse,” Ross told me. “Everything. And they took him. Put him on the racetrack. I never did know what happened to him after that, but I know they didn’t bring him back. So that’s just one of my losses.”

The losses mounted. As sharecroppers, the Ross family saw their wages treated as the landlord’s slush fund. Landowners were supposed to split the profits from the cotton fields with sharecroppers. But bales would often disappear during the count, or the split might be altered on a whim. If cotton was selling for 50 cents a pound, the Ross family might get 15 cents, or only five. One year Ross’s mother promised to buy him a $7 suit for a summer program at their church. She ordered the suit by mail. But that year Ross’s family was paid only five cents a pound for cotton. The mailman arrived with the suit. The Rosses could not pay. The suit was sent back. Clyde Ross did not go to the church program.
The article goes on to detail the life experience of Clyde Ross. He served in WWII and moved to Chicago after the war, where although life was markedly better, blacks still fell victim to nefarious discrimination whose effects are still felt observed today in segregated neighbors and the vastly lower wealth possessed by blacks in the US.
The American real-estate industry believed segregation to be a moral principle. As late as 1950, the National Association of Real Estate Boards’ code of ethics warned that “a Realtor should never be instrumental in introducing into a neighborhood … any race or nationality, or any individuals whose presence will clearly be detrimental to property values.” A 1943 brochure specified that such potential undesirables might include madams, bootleggers, gangsters—and “a colored man of means who was giving his children a college education and thought they were entitled to live among whites.”

The federal government concurred. It was the Home Owners’ Loan Corporation, not a private trade association, that pioneered the practice of redlining, selectively granting loans and insisting that any property it insured be covered by a restrictive covenant—a clause in the deed forbidding the sale of the property to anyone other than whites. Millions of dollars flowed from tax coffers into segregated white neighborhoods.
White Americans of course have no problem associating themselves with selective aspects of America's history, especially the war-time sacrifice of earlier generations. To this day, pension benefits are paid out to the descendants of veterans. No one today is upset at the leg-up they have received through GI Bill funding awarded to their grandparents. But raise the issue of reparations for slavery, terror, and discrimination that afflicted a huge number of Americans for most of this country's history and the outrage is almost palpable.
Last edited by Zack Morris on Fri May 23, 2014 4:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Give to the United Negro College Fund.......

Post by monster_gardener »

Zack Morris wrote:An unexpectedly powerful piece by Ta-Nehisi Coates on the subject of the United States' brutalization and institutionalized subjugation of blacks. Rather than becoming mired in the technicalities of reparations and what form they would take, Mr. Coates attempts to make a powerful moral case for it. Most Americans are of course unaware of the extent of the systematic persecution of blacks and the extent to which it aided white prosperity. Conservatives would like to forget it and, in Coates' words, believe "that if you stab a black person 10 times, the bleeding stops and the healing begins the moment the assailant drops the knife."

Image
The state’s regime partnered robbery of the franchise with robbery of the purse. Many of Mississippi’s black farmers lived in debt peonage, under the sway of cotton kings who were at once their landlords, their employers, and their primary merchants. Tools and necessities were advanced against the return on the crop, which was determined by the employer. When farmers were deemed to be in debt—and they often were—the negative balance was then carried over to the next season. A man or woman who protested this arrangement did so at the risk of grave injury or death. Refusing to work meant arrest under vagrancy laws and forced labor under the state’s penal system.

Well into the 20th century, black people spoke of their flight from Mississippi in much the same manner as their runagate ancestors had. In her 2010 book, The Warmth of Other Suns, Isabel Wilkerson tells the story of Eddie Earvin, a spinach picker who fled Mississippi in 1963, after being made to work at gunpoint. “You didn’t talk about it or tell nobody,” Earvin said. “You had to sneak away.”

When Clyde Ross was still a child, Mississippi authorities claimed his father owed $3,000 in back taxes. The elder Ross could not read. He did not have a lawyer. He did not know anyone at the local courthouse. He could not expect the police to be impartial. Effectively, the Ross family had no way to contest the claim and no protection under the law. The authorities seized the land. They seized the buggy. They took the cows, hogs, and mules. And so for the upkeep of separate but equal, the entire Ross family was reduced to sharecropping.

This was hardly unusual. In 2001, the Associated Press published a three-part investigation into the theft of black-owned land stretching back to the antebellum period. The series documented some 406 victims and 24,000 acres of land valued at tens of millions of dollars. The land was taken through means ranging from legal chicanery to terrorism. “Some of the land taken from black families has become a country club in Virginia,” the AP reported, as well as “oil fields in Mississippi” and “a baseball spring training facility in Florida.”

Clyde Ross was a smart child. His teacher thought he should attend a more challenging school. There was very little support for educating black people in Mississippi. But Julius Rosenwald, a part owner of Sears, Roebuck, had begun an ambitious effort to build schools for black children throughout the South. Ross’s teacher believed he should attend the local Rosenwald school. It was too far for Ross to walk and get back in time to work in the fields. Local white children had a school bus. Clyde Ross did not, and thus lost the chance to better his education.

Then, when Ross was 10 years old, a group of white men demanded his only childhood possession—the horse with the red coat. “You can’t have this horse. We want it,” one of the white men said. They gave Ross’s father $17.

“I did everything for that horse,” Ross told me. “Everything. And they took him. Put him on the racetrack. I never did know what happened to him after that, but I know they didn’t bring him back. So that’s just one of my losses.”

The losses mounted. As sharecroppers, the Ross family saw their wages treated as the landlord’s slush fund. Landowners were supposed to split the profits from the cotton fields with sharecroppers. But bales would often disappear during the count, or the split might be altered on a whim. If cotton was selling for 50 cents a pound, the Ross family might get 15 cents, or only five. One year Ross’s mother promised to buy him a $7 suit for a summer program at their church. She ordered the suit by mail. But that year Ross’s family was paid only five cents a pound for cotton. The mailman arrived with the suit. The Rosses could not pay. The suit was sent back. Clyde Ross did not go to the church program.
The article goes on to detail the life experience of Clyde Ross. He served in WWII and moved to Chicago after the war, where although life was markedly better, blacks still fell victim to nefarious discrimination whose effects are still felt observed today in segregated neighbors and the vastly lower wealth possessed by blacks in the US.
The American real-estate industry believed segregation to be a moral principle. As late as 1950, the National Association of Real Estate Boards’ code of ethics warned that “a Realtor should never be instrumental in introducing into a neighborhood … any race or nationality, or any individuals whose presence will clearly be detrimental to property values.” A 1943 brochure specified that such potential undesirables might include madams, bootleggers, gangsters—and “a colored man of means who was giving his children a college education and thought they were entitled to live among whites.”

The federal government concurred. It was the Home Owners’ Loan Corporation, not a private trade association, that pioneered the practice of redlining, selectively granting loans and insisting that any property it insured be covered by a restrictive covenant—a clause in the deed forbidding the sale of the property to anyone other than whites. Millions of dollars flowed from tax coffers into segregated white neighborhoods.
White Americans of course have no problem associating themselves with selective aspects of America's history, especially the war-time sacrifice of earlier generations. To this day, pension benefits are paid out to the descendants of veterans. No one today is upset at the leg-up they have received through GI Bill funding awarded to their grandparents. But raise the issue of reparations for slavery, terror, and discrimination that afflicted a huge number of Americans for most of this country's history and the outrage is almost palpable.
Thank You Very MUCH for your post, Zack Morris.

I encourage you to donate generously to the United Negro College fund....

Especially through automatic deduction... :idea:

https://secure2.convio.net/uncf/site/SP ... =main_page

You may help some of my favorite relatives..... ;)
The United Negro College Fund, or UNCF, is an American philanthropic organization that funds scholarships for black students and general scholarship funds for 39 private historically black colleges and universities. The UNCF was incorporated on April 25, 1944 by Frederick D. Patterson (then president of what is now Tuskegee University), Mary McLeod Bethune, and others. The UNCF is headquartered at 1805 7th Street, NW in Washington, DC [1] In 2005, the UNCF supported approximately 65,000 students at over 900 colleges and universities with approximately $113 million in grants and scholarships. About 60% of these students are the first in their families to attend college, and 62% have annual family incomes of less than $25,000. UNCF also administers over 450 named scholarships. This is in contrast with the Thurgood Marshall College Fund that raises money for the public historically black colleges and universities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Negro_College_Fund

No one today is upset at the leg-up they have received through GI Bill funding
Because GI Benefits are seen as a proper reward for military veterans/heroes black, white, brown, red, yellow or whatever who have fought for the US.....

As opposed to a penalty to be exacted on people who may have had nothing to do with the outrages detailed above.....

IMO.... a non-starter
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Simple Minded

Re: The Case for Reparations

Post by Simple Minded »

The self-loathing of those who are slaves to their personal concepts of group identity and define themselves only in terms of their own “blackness” or “whiteness” never fails to amaze me.

Thankfully, mentally, they live in little Hells of their own creation.

Thomas Sowell is right, the self-styled intellectuals can always rationalize their racism.

The bad old days of one drop of black blood defining a person may be coming back, this time under the guise of compassion.
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Re: The Case for Reparations

Post by Zack Morris »

Simple Minded wrote:The self-loathing of those who are slaves to their personal concepts of group identity and define themselves only in terms of their own “blackness” or “whiteness” never fails to amaze me.
Of course it amazes you: you are a white man who has benefited all his life from these very same discriminatory policies. Real estate associations have not explicitly barred you from any neighborhoods or worked to devalue your home. The justice system does not presume you are a criminal. Employers do not make judgments about your work ethic or intellectual competence solely on the base of your skin color. You are willfully ignorant of the privileges of being part of the default culture, of having benefited personally from growing up in a country that enriched itself by enslaving blacks, and the social freedoms you enjoy in a white-dominated society (especially if you live in the South, midwest, or a rural area, where blacks are openly despised).
Thankfully, mentally, they live in little Hells of their own creation.
The article provides ample evidence that this is a Hell of white people's creation.
Thomas Sowell is right, the self-styled intellectuals can always rationalize their racism.
Thomas Sowell is right because you feel he absolves you of the uncomfortable responsibility of coming to terms with your country's past and paying due reparations for it.
The bad old days of one drop of black blood defining a person may be coming back, this time under the guise of compassion.
They never disappeared. Anyone who is not white or a foreigner can testify to deeply-seated American prejudices and racism. Americans -- especially in certain parts of the country -- will treat you very differently depending on where you are from and are astonishingly candid about their views when you are perceived as being part of the in-group.
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Re: Give to the United Negro College Fund.......

Post by Zack Morris »

monster_gardener wrote: As opposed to a penalty to be exacted on people who may have had nothing to do with the outrages detailed above.....

IMO.... a non-starter
Why are reparations a "penalty"? You are already framing this in hostile terms. Regardless of when you arrived here, slavery and discrimination are a part of your national heritage now. Just as Americans commemorate and give thanks for the sacrifices of previous generations, so too should the nation make amends for the immense destruction it has inflicted on its own people. Americans tend to believe that the nation is something greater than a collection of individuals, after all.

It is awfully telling that some millionaire rancher's grievance against a Federal policy imposed generations ago will stir white Americans to take up arms and travel across the country to stand together against "tyranny", but any discussion about the far more serious problems affecting black people are met with denial, indignation, and condescending lectures about the perils of "victimhood". Awfully telling, indeed.
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Re: The Case for Reparations

Post by Typhoon »

Speaking of reparations, Mongolia owes much of rest of the world big time.

The problem I see with reparations is the the people directly involved are typically long dead and the circumstances of their descendants are quite different.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
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Re: The Case for Reparations

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Typhoon wrote:Speaking of reparations, Mongolia owes much of rest of the world big time.

The problem I see with reparations is the the people directly involved are typically long dead and the circumstances of their descendants are quite different.
Often, the above argument is made most by nations who are the bad guys

If only those people who physically did what they did where responsible for their doing, and not the nation and their children, if so, one could argue, one does all the crimes against humanity, if it goes well, fine, if not, all will be washed away in a few yrs when next generation takes over .. and .. any crime against humanity done by a nation is not an individual doing but the nations .. Not the Nazi killed those Jews but the Germans, same with Spaniards & Inquisition, same with American and Black (and Chinese) Slaves and and .. not the "Anglo Iranian" Oil company was stealing Iranian oil but the British .. Johnson and Nixon were not spraying Vietnam with Agent Orange but America

A Nation must know they will pay through the nose for generations for atrocities inflicted on innocent humans, for generations .. if so, it might hinder that nation doing those crimes

.
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Zack Morris
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Re: The Case for Reparations

Post by Zack Morris »

Is the Mongolian khanate still in existence and is there an aggrieved population living under its control? If so, reparations are certainly warranted.

A nation's liabilities do not expire with its victims. America's past (and ongoing, in the case of the criminal justice system) actions have put one group of people on less equal footing than others. Can you argue why this injustice should not be addresses? Note that reparations need not be in the form of direct payments. More comprehensive solutions are possible.
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Re: The Case for Reparations

Post by Typhoon »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Typhoon wrote:Speaking of reparations, Mongolia owes much of rest of the world big time.

The problem I see with reparations is the the people directly involved are typically long dead and the circumstances of their descendants are quite different.
Often, the above argument is made most by nations who are the bad guys

If only those people who physically did what they did where responsible for their doing, and not the nation and their children, if so, one could argue, one does all the crimes against humanity, if it goes well, fine, if not, all will be washed away in a few yrs when next generation takes over .. and .. any crime against humanity done by a nation is not an individual doing but the nations .. Not the Nazi killed those Jews but the Germans, same with Spaniards & Inquisition, same with American and Black (and Chinese) Slaves and and .. not the "Anglo Iranian" Oil company was stealing Iranian oil but the British .. Johnson and Nixon were not spraying Vietnam with Agent Orange but America

A Nation must know they will pay through the nose for generations for atrocities inflicted on innocent humans, for generations .. if so, it might hinder that nation doing those crimes

.
Doubtful.

Crushing reparation conditions against Germany after WWI set the stage for the collapse of democracy, the rise of a dictatorship, and WWII.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
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Re: The Case for Reparations

Post by Doc »

Doc wrote: . . .

Those personally responsible should be held accountable. Otherwise how about starting with the Muslims that captured Africans and sold them into slavery? Do you think Muslims should pay reparations?
Good point.

That's the other aspect that bothers me, the concept of collective guilt based on nation, race, religion, gender, or whatever vs personal accountability.
Not sure who wrote the above reply. It said Zack wrote what I wrote. But fixed that.
Last edited by Doc on Fri May 23, 2014 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Get Busy Get Respect Or Leave/Blacks in the Clan Get Respect

Post by monster_gardener »

Zack Morris wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:The self-loathing of those who are slaves to their personal concepts of group identity and define themselves only in terms of their own “blackness” or “whiteness” never fails to amaze me.
Of course it amazes you: you are a white man who has benefited all his life from these very same discriminatory policies. Real estate associations have not explicitly barred you from any neighborhoods or worked to devalue your home. The justice system does not presume you are a criminal. Employers do not make judgments about your work ethic or intellectual competence solely on the base of your skin color. You are willfully ignorant of the privileges of being part of the default culture, of having benefited personally from growing up in a country that enriched itself by enslaving blacks, and the social freedoms you enjoy in a white-dominated society (especially if you live in the South, midwest, or a rural area, where blacks are openly despised).
Thankfully, mentally, they live in little Hells of their own creation.
The article provides ample evidence that this is a Hell of white people's creation.
Thomas Sowell is right, the self-styled intellectuals can always rationalize their racism.
Thomas Sowell is right because you feel he absolves you of the uncomfortable responsibility of coming to terms with your country's past and paying due reparations for it.
The bad old days of one drop of black blood defining a person may be coming back, this time under the guise of compassion.
They never disappeared. Anyone who is not white or a foreigner can testify to deeply-seated American prejudices and racism. Americans -- especially in certain parts of the country -- will treat you very differently depending on where you are from and are astonishingly candid about their views when you are perceived as being part of the in-group.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Zack Morris,

AIUI most/pretty near anyone not under indictment/in prison, can legally leave the US if they so choose.

This isn't the old Soviet Union etc.......

And I would encourage people whether white, black, brown, red, yellow, green ;) etc. who feel so aggrieved to leave....

Lot's of people trying to get in........ :idea:

Or one can get busy taking advantage of the opportunity here.....

Such as.........

Join the military if you can qualify and get that GI Bill.... :idea:

And Get Respect when people say "Thank You For Your Service to our Country" when they see you wearing your uniform or cap or other indicators that you are a Vet.

This has been a way for Blacks in the Clan ;) to get ahead...

Also Whites.... And Browns....... etc.

Oops I mean my Clan.... :lol:


BTW some people do leave the US .........

Like that Brazilian Facebook Klown who came here, became a citizen and then left & renounced his citizenship to save money on taxes... :shock:

Eduardo Saverin was born in São Paulo, Brazil, to a wealthy Jewish Brazilian family,[11][12][13][14] and his family later moved to Rio de Janeiro. Eduardo's father was an industrialist working in export, clothing, shipping, and real estate.[15]

In 1993, due to his father's wealth, it was discovered that his son Eduardo's name had been placed on a list of potential kidnapping victims by gangs specializing in kidnapping for ransom. As a result, the family emigrated to the United States to find a safer place to live, and settled in Miami, Florida. Saverin attended Gulliver Preparatory School in Miami, and went on to Harvard University, where he was a member of the Phoenix S.K. Club as well as president of the Harvard Investment Association. While an undergraduate at Harvard, Saverin took advantage of Brazil's lax insider trading regulations and made $300,000 via strategic investments in the oil industry.[15][16][17] In 2006, Saverin graduated magna cum laude from Harvard University with a bachelor's degree in economics. He is a member of the Alpha Epsilon Pi fraternity (Eta Psi chapter of Harvard University).

Saverin has lived in Singapore since 2009.[18][19] In September 2011, he renounced his U.S. citizenship; the citizenship change may have reduced the capital gains taxes Saverin would have paid after the Facebook IPO.[7][20] In response, Senator Chuck Schumer introduced the Ex-PATRIOT Act, which could have prevented Saverin from ever entering the U.S. again, but the bill died in committee.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eduardo_Saverin

Good Riddance....

Same applies to others native born or immigrant who do likewise....

Or try to extort what they have not earned from people who do not owe them....
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Re: The Case for Reparations

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Typhoon wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Typhoon wrote:Speaking of reparations, Mongolia owes much of rest of the world big time.

The problem I see with reparations is the the people directly involved are typically long dead and the circumstances of their descendants are quite different.
Often, the above argument is made most by nations who are the bad guys

If only those people who physically did what they did where responsible for their doing, and not the nation and their children, if so, one could argue, one does all the crimes against humanity, if it goes well, fine, if not, all will be washed away in a few yrs when next generation takes over .. and .. any crime against humanity done by a nation is not an individual doing but the nations .. Not the Nazi killed those Jews but the Germans, same with Spaniards & Inquisition, same with American and Black (and Chinese) Slaves and and .. not the "Anglo Iranian" Oil company was stealing Iranian oil but the British .. Johnson and Nixon were not spraying Vietnam with Agent Orange but America

A Nation must know they will pay through the nose for generations for atrocities inflicted on innocent humans, for generations .. if so, it might hinder that nation doing those crimes

.
Doubtful.

Crushing reparation conditions against Germany after WWI set the stage for the collapse of democracy, the rise of a dictatorship, and WWII.

agree .. compensation must be scaled

Moral for compensation is

A) punishment, that things do not happen again

B) material compensation for damage inflicted

Meaning compensation must be scaled so that the perpetrator can pay and digest

WWI case was wrong 2 fold .. Germans were not at fault and compensation was unjustified

.
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Re: The Case for Reparations

Post by Doc »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Typhoon wrote:Speaking of reparations, Mongolia owes much of rest of the world big time.

The problem I see with reparations is the the people directly involved are typically long dead and the circumstances of their descendants are quite different.
Often, the above argument is made most by nations who are the bad guys

If only those people who physically did what they did where responsible for their doing, and not the nation and their children, if so, one could argue, one does all the crimes against humanity, if it goes well, fine, if not, all will be washed away in a few yrs when next generation takes over .. and .. any crime against humanity done by a nation is not an individual doing but the nations .. Not the Nazi killed those Jews but the Germans, same with Spaniards & Inquisition, same with American and Black (and Chinese) Slaves and and .. not the "Anglo Iranian" Oil company was stealing Iranian oil but the British .. Johnson and Nixon were not spraying Vietnam with Agent Orange but America

A Nation must know they will pay through the nose for generations for atrocities inflicted on innocent humans, for generations .. if so, it might hinder that nation doing those crimes

.
Doubtful.

Crushing reparation conditions against Germany after WWI set the stage for the collapse of democracy, the rise of a dictatorship, and WWII.

agree .. compensation must be scaled

Moral for compensation is

A) punishment, that things do not happen again

B) material compensation for damage inflicted

Meaning compensation must be scaled so that the perpetrator can pay and digest

WWI case was wrong 2 fold .. Germans were not at fault and compensation was unjustified

.
Then woujd you agree that Barrack Hussein Obama be held accountable. He was neither the son of a slave or did he suffer in the old south from the racism we are talking about He is half white and his father was Muslim. Therefore shouldn't he have to pay?
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: The Case for Reparations

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Doc wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Typhoon wrote:Speaking of reparations, Mongolia owes much of rest of the world big time.

The problem I see with reparations is the the people directly involved are typically long dead and the circumstances of their descendants are quite different.
Often, the above argument is made most by nations who are the bad guys

If only those people who physically did what they did where responsible for their doing, and not the nation and their children, if so, one could argue, one does all the crimes against humanity, if it goes well, fine, if not, all will be washed away in a few yrs when next generation takes over .. and .. any crime against humanity done by a nation is not an individual doing but the nations .. Not the Nazi killed those Jews but the Germans, same with Spaniards & Inquisition, same with American and Black (and Chinese) Slaves and and .. not the "Anglo Iranian" Oil company was stealing Iranian oil but the British .. Johnson and Nixon were not spraying Vietnam with Agent Orange but America

A Nation must know they will pay through the nose for generations for atrocities inflicted on innocent humans, for generations .. if so, it might hinder that nation doing those crimes

.
Doubtful.

Crushing reparation conditions against Germany after WWI set the stage for the collapse of democracy, the rise of a dictatorship, and WWII.

agree .. compensation must be scaled

Moral for compensation is

A) punishment, that things do not happen again

B) material compensation for damage inflicted

Meaning compensation must be scaled so that the perpetrator can pay and digest

WWI case was wrong 2 fold .. Germans were not at fault and compensation was unjustified

.

Then woujd you agree that Barrack Hussein Obama be held accountable. He was neither the son of a slave or did he suffer in the old south from the racism we are talking about He is half white and his father was Muslim. Therefore shouldn't he have to pay ?

True , father was Kenyan free man, mom a white lady .. in that sense, Obama has no "slave" ancestory .. Muslim a religion (a school of thinking) nothing to do with race

Obama an ORIO, in reality white, Farrakhan said so :lol: :lol:

Michelle, not familiar of her ancestor, but looks to me she real African lady

Both Obamas the most intelligent president and first lady America had since half a century

Real disaster, IMO, was Bill & Hillary

.
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Re: The Case for Reparations

Post by Doc »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Doc wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Typhoon wrote:Speaking of reparations, Mongolia owes much of rest of the world big time.

The problem I see with reparations is the the people directly involved are typically long dead and the circumstances of their descendants are quite different.
Often, the above argument is made most by nations who are the bad guys

If only those people who physically did what they did where responsible for their doing, and not the nation and their children, if so, one could argue, one does all the crimes against humanity, if it goes well, fine, if not, all will be washed away in a few yrs when next generation takes over .. and .. any crime against humanity done by a nation is not an individual doing but the nations .. Not the Nazi killed those Jews but the Germans, same with Spaniards & Inquisition, same with American and Black (and Chinese) Slaves and and .. not the "Anglo Iranian" Oil company was stealing Iranian oil but the British .. Johnson and Nixon were not spraying Vietnam with Agent Orange but America

A Nation must know they will pay through the nose for generations for atrocities inflicted on innocent humans, for generations .. if so, it might hinder that nation doing those crimes

.
Doubtful.

Crushing reparation conditions against Germany after WWI set the stage for the collapse of democracy, the rise of a dictatorship, and WWII.

agree .. compensation must be scaled

Moral for compensation is

A) punishment, that things do not happen again

B) material compensation for damage inflicted

Meaning compensation must be scaled so that the perpetrator can pay and digest

WWI case was wrong 2 fold .. Germans were not at fault and compensation was unjustified

.

Then would you agree that Barrack Hussein Obama be held accountable. He was neither the son of a slave or did he suffer in the old south from the racism we are talking about He is half white and his father was Muslim. Therefore shouldn't he have to pay ?

True , father was Kenyan free man, mom a white lady .. in that sense, Obama has no "slave" ancestory .. Muslim a religion (a school of thinking) nothing to do with race
[/quoteBut everything to do with the slave trade that captured the slaves that were sent to the new world. The point stands. As A muslim how much do you think you should paty in reparations to African Americans? I would think it should be quite a lot.
Obama an ORIO, in reality white, Farrakhan said so :lol: :lol:

Michelle, not familiar of her ancestor, but looks to me she real African lady
Almost all decedents of slaves are bi racial including Michelle.
Both Obamas the most intelligent president and first lady America had since half a century
Then It sure;y does not take much to impress you.
Real disaster, IMO, was Bill & Hillary

.
They were out for themselves no more than the Obama's maybe less so. I don't remember Hillary taken all the vacations that Michelle has taken in few years of her husband being in office.
Last edited by Doc on Fri May 23, 2014 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Case for Reparations

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This is a thread about reparations not about US 1st ladies.

Let's keep it that way.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
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Re: The Case for Reparations

Post by Simple Minded »

Zack Morris wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:The self-loathing of those who are slaves to their personal concepts of group identity and define themselves only in terms of their own “blackness” or “whiteness” never fails to amaze me.
Of course it amazes you: you are a white man who has benefited all his life from these very same discriminatory policies. Real estate associations have not explicitly barred you from any neighborhoods or worked to devalue your home. The justice system does not presume you are a criminal. Employers do not make judgments about your work ethic or intellectual competence solely on the base of your skin color. You are willfully ignorant of the privileges of being part of the default culture, of having benefited personally from growing up in a country that enriched itself by enslaving blacks, and the social freedoms you enjoy in a white-dominated society (especially if you live in the South, midwest, or a rural area, where blacks are openly despised).
Thankfully, mentally, they live in little Hells of their own creation.
The article provides ample evidence that this is a Hell of white people's creation.
Thomas Sowell is right, the self-styled intellectuals can always rationalize their racism.
Thomas Sowell is right because you feel he absolves you of the uncomfortable responsibility of coming to terms with your country's past and paying due reparations for it.
The bad old days of one drop of black blood defining a person may be coming back, this time under the guise of compassion.
They never disappeared. Anyone who is not white or a foreigner can testify to deeply-seated American prejudices and racism. Americans -- especially in certain parts of the country -- will treat you very differently depending on where you are from and are astonishingly candid about their views when you are perceived as being part of the in-group.
Zack,

The accuracy of your amazing Carnac psychic abilities are horrible. Just admit you don’t know a damn thing about me. If you think you do know anything about me, please provide my race makeup by percentage, job descriptions, employer names, and past addresses.

You sound like a friend of mine who lives in Palo Alto and who is riddled with “white guilt” over her success. Which, I suspect, has more to do with her lack of generosity regarding the less fortunate than it does with the cosmic unfairness of life.

Based on past conversations, she agrees that the concept of white privilege exists more in exclusive zip code areas (where it is possible to rub shoulders with both billionaires and the homeless in the space of a few minutes and a couple miles) than it does in the less prosperous area in which we both grew up.

I suspect you may be projecting your own racism, prejudice, and bigotry, or the racism, prejudice, and bigotry of the people you have associated with, on to a very large percentage of the population that you have never met.

I think you missed Endo’s two great philosophical questions.
How do YOU explain what I witnessed? Is it real?

I will grant you expert status regarding things you have witnessed in the zip codes in which you have lived, if you do the same for me. ;)
Last edited by Simple Minded on Sat May 24, 2014 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Simple Minded

Re: The Case for Reparations

Post by Simple Minded »

Typhoon wrote:Speaking of reparations, Mongolia owes much of rest of the world big time.

The problem I see with reparations is the the people directly involved are typically long dead and the circumstances of their descendants are quite different.
Amen. I want the job of chief apparatchik who decides the tax rate or payment amount for each person based on the race percentage of their ancestors, where their ancestors settled in America, when their ancestors settled in America, whether their ancestors were actually slave owners or slaves, and whether they lost any life or property in the Civil War!

Fill out the 100 page form, file it, and I'll send you a check as soon as I verify the details. If you don't hear back from me in ten years call this 800 number.

Unfortunately, I am probably too late to become the Paul Erlich or the David Suzuki of the Man Made Global Reparations movement.

The phenomena of those who feel guilty, proud, or entitled due to something that someone of their race, nation, or geographic location did decades before their birth is an amazing phenomena. The personal Hell of identifying oneself as a subunit of a race, nation, location, religion, political movement, etc....

Interesting mental disease. I suspect POS parents play a huge factor.
Last edited by Simple Minded on Fri May 23, 2014 9:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Case for Reparations

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Typhoon wrote:This is a thread about reparations not about US 1st ladies.

Let's keep it that way.
But it is also about who should pay the reparations. Which is my point.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/17/us/dn ... d=all&_r=0
Meet Your Cousin, the First Lady: A Family Story, Long Hidden
I have a somewhat usual last name. I have no known relatives from the old south. Even with several relatives that as a hobby look into such things. But there are both white and black persons with the same name as mine.

The way thing are going I suppose in the future we will all be Elizabeth Warren claiming kinship dubious or not.
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Re: The Case for Reparations

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Doc wrote:Otherwise how about starting with the Muslims that captured Africans and sold them into slavery? Do you think Muslims should pay reparations?
Can you identify a nation that captured Africans, sold them into slavery, and created an underclass among its own ethnic African citizens thereafter? If so, sure, those citizens deserve reparations from their nation.
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Re: The Case for Reparations

Post by Zack Morris »

Typhoon wrote: Crushing reparation conditions against Germany after WWI set the stage for the collapse of democracy, the rise of a dictatorship, and WWII.
Germany paid reparations to Israel, including for Jews killed who had no surviving relatives.
Despite the protests, the agreement was signed in September 1952, and West Germany paid Israel a sum of 3 billion marks over the next fourteen years; 450 million marks were paid to the World Jewish Congress. The payments were made to the State of Israel as the heir to those victims who had no surviving family. The money was invested in the country's infrastructure, and played an important role in establishing the economy of the new state. The reparations would become a decisive part of Israel's income, comprising as high as 87.5% of the state income in 1956.[3][verification needed] Israel at the time faced a deep economic crisis and was heavily dependent on donations by foreign Jews, and the reparations, along with these donations, would help turn Israel into an economically viable country.
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Re: The Case for Reparations

Post by Zack Morris »

Simple Minded wrote: The accuracy of your amazing Carnac psychic abilities are horrible. Just admit you don’t know a damn thing about me. If you think you do know anything about me, please provide my race makeup by percentage, job descriptions, employer names, and past addresses.
Are you trying to tell me that you are not identified as "white"?
Based on past conversations, she agrees that the concept of white privilege exists more in exclusive zip code areas (where it is possible to rub shoulders with both billionaires and the homeless in the space of a few minutes and a couple miles) than it does in the less prosperous area in which we both grew up.
Do you know what white privilege is? Because I don't think you do. White people can be dirt poor but still enjoy white privilege. White privilege denotes advantages that whites of any status enjoy relative to their non-white peers. White privilege confers greater economic and social mobility because whites in America generally do not suffer systemic prejudice based on their skin color from people in positions of power. Whites benefit from being the cultural norm and assuming their experiences are universal whereas others (blacks, Hispanics, etc.) are the exception. White interests are far better represented among political and economic decision makers. Even the poorest white criminals are likely to receive better treatment from the criminal justice system, which hands down harsher sentences to non-whites who commit equivalent crimes.

You should read the article. It talks about how all of this is not the result of happenstance but often part of a centuries-long coordinated effort to preserve white supremacy. The country has made great progress in attempting to atone for its sins but this progress is hampered by the enormous resistance from people like you who want to preserve a filtered, whitewashed view of American history.
I suspect you may be projecting your own racism, prejudice, and bigotry, or the racism, prejudice, and bigotry of the people you have associated with, on to a very large percentage of the population that you have never met.
I've been fortunate enough to grow up exposed to a lot of diversity. My parents weren't born in this country and most of my friends and work colleagues happen to be foreigners. I understand American culture as well any native-born American but enjoy the benefit of being able to step outside of it.
How do YOU explain what I witnessed? Is it real?
First, you have tell us what you witnessed. Because I have no clue what you're talking about.
I will grant you expert status regarding things you have witnessed in the zip codes in which you have lived, if you do the same for me. ;)
Ah, so you believe that anecdotal evidence trumps data?
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Re: The Case for Reparations

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Simple Minded wrote: Amen. I want the job of chief apparatchik who decides the tax rate or payment amount for each person based on the race percentage of their ancestors, where their ancestors settled in America, when their ancestors settled in America, whether their ancestors were actually slave owners or slaves, and whether they lost any life or property in the Civil War!
Why do you seem reparations would be handled like this? At this point, it's not even clear that any payments would be necessary. Reparations could come in many different forms, including legislation that addresses systemic discrimination (in the justice system, for example) and unequal access to public resources. But first, Americans have to want to address the issue, and it isn't clear that they do.
The phenomena of those who feel guilty, proud, or entitled due to something that someone of their race, nation, or geographic location did decades before their birth is an amazing phenomena. The personal Hell of identifying oneself as a subunit of a race, nation, location, religion, political movement, etc....
That's very easy to say when you're not a member of the underclass.
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Re: Get Busy Get Respect Or Leave/Blacks in the Clan Get Res

Post by Zack Morris »

monster_gardener wrote: AIUI most/pretty near anyone not under indictment/in prison, can legally leave the US if they so choose.

This isn't the old Soviet Union etc.......

And I would encourage people whether white, black, brown, red, yellow, green ;) etc. who feel so aggrieved to leave....
Another example of white privilege: the assumption that whites are normal Americans and blacks are somehow alien to the culture. Whites regret that Africans ever set foot in the New World not because of how they were treated but because they're somehow different and make white people feel uncomfortable having to think about the unpleasant issues they face. Let's just send them back!

Sorry, dude. Black people are as American as apple pie. Remember that white people took up arms and revolted against their former government for perceived slights that nobody honestly remembers -- let alone empathizes with -- anymore. Those white people are still honored for standing up for their universal, God-given rights. But if blacks are unhappy at having been terrorized for the past few centuries, well they should pack up and go back to Africa!

Nope, not going to happen. Citizens victimized by their country should force their country to change.
Join the military if you can qualify and get that GI Bill.... :idea:
Did you know that blacks were denied GI Bill benefits they earned? :idea:
So what now?
And Get Respect when people say "Thank You For Your Service to our Country" when they see you wearing your uniform or cap or other indicators that you are a Vet.
That respect was usually only afforded to whites. Blacks were barred from marching in annual parades. White people did everything in their power to ensure that nobody knew they served.
Like that Brazilian Facebook Klown who came here, became a citizen and then left & renounced his citizenship to save money on taxes... :shock:
I wish more right wingers would get up and leave the country instead of whining about taxes. If, as you said, black people should leave for being discriminated against, then surely Mr. Perfect and those like him should just leave instead of being un-American about it and complaining.
Simple Minded

Re: The Case for Reparations

Post by Simple Minded »

Zack Morris wrote:
Simple Minded wrote: The accuracy of your amazing Carnac psychic abilities are horrible. Just admit you don’t know a damn thing about me. If you think you do know anything about me, please provide my race makeup by percentage, job descriptions, employer names, and past addresses.
Are you trying to tell me that you are not identified as "white"?
Based on past conversations, she agrees that the concept of white privilege exists more in exclusive zip code areas (where it is possible to rub shoulders with both billionaires and the homeless in the space of a few minutes and a couple miles) than it does in the less prosperous area in which we both grew up.
Do you know what white privilege is? Because I don't think you do. White people can be dirt poor but still enjoy white privilege. White privilege denotes advantages that whites of any status enjoy relative to their non-white peers. White privilege confers greater economic and social mobility because whites in America generally do not suffer systemic prejudice based on their skin color from people in positions of power. Whites benefit from being the cultural norm and assuming their experiences are universal whereas others (blacks, Hispanics, etc.) are the exception. White interests are far better represented among political and economic decision makers. Even the poorest white criminals are likely to receive better treatment from the criminal justice system, which hands down harsher sentences to non-whites who commit equivalent crimes.

You should read the article. It talks about how all of this is not the result of happenstance but often part of a centuries-long coordinated effort to preserve white supremacy. The country has made great progress in attempting to atone for its sins but this progress is hampered by the enormous resistance from people like you who want to preserve a filtered, whitewashed view of American history.
I suspect you may be projecting your own racism, prejudice, and bigotry, or the racism, prejudice, and bigotry of the people you have associated with, on to a very large percentage of the population that you have never met.
I've been fortunate enough to grow up exposed to a lot of diversity. My parents weren't born in this country and most of my friends and work colleagues happen to be foreigners. I understand American culture as well any native-born American but enjoy the benefit of being able to step outside of it.
How do YOU explain what I witnessed? Is it real?
First, you have tell us what you witnessed. Because I have no clue what you're talking about.
I will grant you expert status regarding things you have witnessed in the zip codes in which you have lived, if you do the same for me. ;)
Ah, so you believe that anecdotal evidence trumps data?
Now we’re talking. The entire game falls apart if Fred can define how white or black he is. Only the observer can define Fred’s whiteness or blackness.
No one knows better than you that I can’t define my “whiteness.” You have already defined my whiteness without even so much as a photograph. You just won’t give me the grey scale number.

How white do I look? While I don’t think I (or Obama for that matter) look black at all, I have been called a nigger in the past. Oddly enough sometimes as a compliment, other times as an insult. I guess some would say I am blacker than Condolezza Rice, Bill Cosby or Clarence Thomas, but not as black as Bill Clinton or Vanilla Ice.

Data? Thank you Jesus! Data is what I am asking you for. When I got job X working for company Y competing against applicants A, B, and C. What was the skin tone grey scale number of each of the applicants? What were the names of the other applicants? Who had the best resume? Who had the most experience? Who was willing to work for the lowest wage, or accommodate the most demanding schedule? Regarding renting apartments or buying houses who was willing to cough up the required deposit and pay the rent/mortgage? Who had the best references?

Names, dates, places, companies, zip codes, and skin tone grey scales are all I’m asking for Zack. Either supply the missing information or admit you don’t know jack about what is beyond your personal experience. Then we will go back to our previous standing of you accurately observe what happens around you, I accurately observe what happens around me, and anything else we spule is at best, second-hand, here say, BS.

Good rule for all of life: Always beware the person who demands you shut off your brain and deny your sensory input in favour of believing their “data.”


If you and I were candidates for the same job, I would expect you to get the job if the important criteria were vocabulary and articulateness, and if logical thought and reading comprehension were more important, I would expect to get the job. Only the interviewer would know for sure if skin tone grey scale was a factor.

I don’t deny that group identity privilege exists locally and in organizations (KKK, Black Student Unions, La Raza, NOW), I think Sanda Fluke (who expects poor black people to pay for her birth control) might be a great example. But I have not met her, but she may merely be in favor of female privilege instead, or perhaps she is just disgruntled. The black & brown migrant workers I used to work with in the fields thought America a less oppressive place than a white, female Gergetwon law student!

When the black dude says to the white dude “You don’t know what it is like to be black in America!” He is right. But it is equally true that the black dude does not know what it is like to be white in America. All both have is their “feelings.” Unless, of course, we have “data.”

To ignore so many variables, in so many complex, unique, and extremely personal situations, which can be interpreted by the actual participants in an almost infinite number of ways, and to focus only on skin color……hmmm…… is that not the very definition of racism?

Yeah, yeah, I know….. among the currently chic self-professed, self-promoting, sensitive intellectuals, to focus on anything other than skin color is the mark of a racist…….. or at the very least, you put your paycheck at risk... :shock:

Like I said, the self-created mental hell of those who cling to their group identity….. you almost feel sorry for them…. Nah, not even a little bit.

“My attitude is proof of _______.” Feelings & perceptions are fascinating things. Anyone looking at a sufficiently large population can find "data" to support any conclusion.

The person who can’t get a date to the prom has a variety of opinions on the cosmic unfairness of life!”

Thanks for playing along Zack, it makes this forum fun.
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