Bernie Sanders

manolo
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Post by manolo »

Mr. Perfect wrote:
manolo wrote: the notion 'this is right for me' is very easily transposed into 'this is right'. Too easily?

Alex.
Genius. I had thought you had outlived your usefulness.
Mr P,

I was thinking the same about you. Backaways we have both put in some good work (I remember your detailed exposition on global MMGW and historical CO2 levels) but recently I think we have become a bit 'direct' (your words).

Maybe, in the end it comes down to keystrokes.

Alex.
Mr. Perfect
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Well, keystrokes and election returns. :)

With the immolation of Labor and the Democrat Party, fortunately those on my side no longer have to do expositions on CO2 and MMGW. It's more common knowledge these days and the middle has moved decidedly to my side, both in my country and yours. Looking to be permanent.

So the conversation changes. A superminority has to play by different rules, and Labor and the Democrats refuse to play by them. Eg, when I was in the superminority, we had to come to terms with our failures and realize that the deciding middle had to be persuaded by reasoned argument and an acknowledgement of our shortcomings and failures. Which we did.

Labor and Democrats appear to have no idea that is their role now, and they refuse to acknowledge that failures even happened, let alone what they are and how they will remedy them, if they can. As such, I expect them (Labor and Democrats) to fade into extinction as political concerns. If the GOP wins this election the Democrats are finished as a national party, just as Labor appears to be now. And is often the case, Labor and Democrats have no one to blame but themselves.
Censorship isn't necessary
manolo
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Post by manolo »

Mr. Perfect wrote:Well, keystrokes and election returns. :)

With the immolation of Labor and the Democrat Party, fortunately those on my side no longer have to do expositions on CO2 and MMGW. It's more common knowledge these days and the middle has moved decidedly to my side, both in my country and yours. Looking to be permanent.

So the conversation changes. A superminority has to play by different rules, and Labor and the Democrats refuse to play by them. Eg, when I was in the superminority, we had to come to terms with our failures and realize that the deciding middle had to be persuaded by reasoned argument and an acknowledgement of our shortcomings and failures. Which we did.

Labor and Democrats appear to have no idea that is their role now, and they refuse to acknowledge that failures even happened, let alone what they are and how they will remedy them, if they can. As such, I expect them (Labor and Democrats) to fade into extinction as political concerns. If the GOP wins this election the Democrats are finished as a national party, just as Labor appears to be now. And is often the case, Labor and Democrats have no one to blame but themselves.
Mr P,

I'm not so sure of your UK analysis, but you will know US politics better than I ever could.

Regarding election returns this side of the pond. My own country, Scotland, has moved further to the left. We have gradually removed conservative politicians from our soil and now have only one to go. Labour failed up here because they were increasingly seen as Tory 'lite'. My feeling is that SNP control in Scotland is likely to be long term. If the SNP delivers on anti austerity promises then Scotland may well succeed in breaking the UK and coming out of the union. However, if the SNP (Greece wise) fails to deliver then a genuine labour alternative has a good chance of winning Scotland back. A strong Labour leader, such as Jeremy Corbyn, could make inroads into the SNP vote. If I had to bet on an outcome I would say that Scotland is likely to become independent within a generation, and there will not be a conservative in our politics for a very long time. Unlike yourself, I would never say never though.

In England the conservatives won 24% of the voting electorate. This means of course that 76% didn't vote for them. An old Tory stager, Ken Clarke, predicts that the Tories will be more unpopular than this low number by the end of another parliament. I am betting that they will overreach in their policies and a left of centre coalition, including Labour,the Greens, Liberals, Plaid Cymru (plus good relations with the SNP) will see them off. The signs are good, with membership of both Liberal and Labour parties rising fast. Labour now has more members than under Blair at his best. In the meantime the Conservatives have only a 12 seat majority in the House of Commons and no majority in our upper house.

http://constitution-unit.com/2015/05/11 ... the-lords/

I am a Labour party donor, but not a member. At the moment I am considering membership of the SNP but will wait until the anti austerity policies are seen in action, before committing.

Alex.

PS - Apologies for digression and back to Bernie. :)
Mr. Perfect
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Post by Mr. Perfect »

So the Tories don't have a majority government?
Censorship isn't necessary
Simple Minded

Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Post by Simple Minded »

manolo wrote:
Simple Minded wrote: This could take a while to distill down into simplemindedness, seems kinda like intuition, or listening to the small still voice within.
SM,

I think this stuff is up your alley. Emotivists are subjective, they argue that morality is not about what is right objectively but about what a person feels is right for them. It is a view which is not without merit; however the notion 'this is right for me' is very easily transposed into 'this is right'. Too easily?

Alex.
Alex,

I think I've got it distilled down.

Fred: "I'm not an emotivist, you are!"
Joe: "No. I'm not an emotivist, you are!"
Fred: "No, you are!"
Joe: "No, you are!"
.....

In the old days, it might have been called, denial, rationalization, or projection. ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9FJiDFVoOo
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Parodite
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Post by Parodite »

SM, allz right Bro. :) Was thinking of something... but it got lost in the morning fog.
Deep down I'm very superficial
Simple Minded

Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Post by Simple Minded »

Parodite wrote:SM, allz right Bro. :) Was thinking of something... but it got lost in the morning fog.
I have the same disease Bro!

Thoughts are like those inspirational posters from the 60's:

"If you love something, set it free! If it's yours, it will come back, if it doesn't, it never was!" :)

From what I have been able to gather, internet discourse is based on about 1/4 accurate reading compression, 1/2 imagination, and 1/4 ?.

Those who get worked up about differences of opinion..... are funny ducks! ;)
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Parodite
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Post by Parodite »

Simple Minded wrote:
Parodite wrote:SM, allz right Bro. :) Was thinking of something... but it got lost in the morning fog.
I have the same disease Bro!

Thoughts are like those inspirational posters from the 60's:

"If you love something, set it free! If it's yours, it will come back, if it doesn't, it never was!" :)

From what I have been able to gather, internet discourse is based on about 1/4 accurate reading compression, 1/2 imagination, and 1/4 ?.

Those who get worked up about differences of opinion..... are funny ducks! ;)
I think it is in our male genes Bro... we like to compete and playfully train for the kill. ;)
Deep down I'm very superficial
manolo
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Post by manolo »

Simple Minded wrote:
I think I've got it distilled down.

Fred: "I'm not an emotivist, you are!"
Joe: "No. I'm not an emotivist, you are!"
Fred: "No, you are!"
Joe: "No, you are!"
.....

In the old days, it might have been called, denial, rationalization, or projection. ;)
SM,

An emotivist cannot project moral judgement onto another person, because emotivism holds that we each judge according to our own feelings on an issue. This, of course, is a failing when we are trying to make moral judgements that will affect others, such as formulating laws.

OTOH emotivism does have a convincing grounding. We might hear the argument from (A) 'social healthcare is wrong - reason, reason, reason' and another person (B) says 'social healthcare is right - reason, reason, reason'. The emotivist will hear from (A) 'I don't like social healthcare'; from (B) 'I like social healthcare'.

I think there is truth in this. The emotivist cannot deny, rationalize or project. They have to come clean on the feelings which drive all that cover up baloney.

Alex.
manolo
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Post by manolo »

Mr. Perfect wrote:So the Tories don't have a majority government?
Mr P,

The Tories have a 12 seat majority in the House of Commons, but they received votes from only 24% of the electorate. The other 76% either voted for other parties or didn't vote.

Alex.
Mr. Perfect
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Post by Mr. Perfect »

What percentage voted against SNP.
Censorship isn't necessary
Simple Minded

Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Post by Simple Minded »

Parodite wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:
Parodite wrote:SM, allz right Bro. :) Was thinking of something... but it got lost in the morning fog.
I have the same disease Bro!

Thoughts are like those inspirational posters from the 60's:

"If you love something, set it free! If it's yours, it will come back, if it doesn't, it never was!" :)

From what I have been able to gather, internet discourse is based on about 1/4 accurate reading compression, 1/2 imagination, and 1/4 ?.

Those who get worked up about differences of opinion..... are funny ducks! ;)
I think it is in our male genes Bro... we like to compete and playfully train for the kill. ;)
You may be right. I have often noticed how cats and dogs are constantly on the lookout for something to focus their imagination upon, and practice predatory skills and techniques.

Those humans who have many internal demons will always be the most efficient predators and persecutors.

Cosmic justice?
Simple Minded

Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Post by Simple Minded »

manolo wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:
I think I've got it distilled down.

Fred: "I'm not an emotivist, you are!"
Joe: "No. I'm not an emotivist, you are!"
Fred: "No, you are!"
Joe: "No, you are!"
.....

In the old days, it might have been called, denial, rationalization, or projection. ;)
SM,

An emotivist cannot project moral judgement onto another person, because emotivism holds that we each judge according to our own feelings on an issue. This, of course, is a failing when we are trying to make moral judgements that will affect others, such as formulating laws.

OTOH emotivism does have a convincing grounding. We might hear the argument from (A) 'social healthcare is wrong - reason, reason, reason' and another person (B) says 'social healthcare is right - reason, reason, reason'. The emotivist will hear from (A) 'I don't like social healthcare'; from (B) 'I like social healthcare'.

I think there is truth in this. The emotivist cannot deny, rationalize or project. They have to come clean on the feelings which drive all that cover up baloney.

Alex.
Alex,

If you say so, I will defer to your expertise.

Based on what you say, I would expect emotivists to default to herding more often than non-emotivists.

The Elliott Wavers have speculated that humans outside their area of expertise, and with a dearth of knowledge, will turn to their emotions as to the arbiter of whether their decisions/behavior are correct/appropriate. Due to evolutionary process (?), humans find a sense of being right when herding (safety in numbers).

All kinds of manias have existed for eons, financial, fashion, doomer porn, hobbies, housing, religion, etc.
noddy
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Post by noddy »

Simple Minded wrote:
manolo wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:
I think I've got it distilled down.

Fred: "I'm not an emotivist, you are!"
Joe: "No. I'm not an emotivist, you are!"
Fred: "No, you are!"
Joe: "No, you are!"
.....

In the old days, it might have been called, denial, rationalization, or projection. ;)
SM,

An emotivist cannot project moral judgement onto another person, because emotivism holds that we each judge according to our own feelings on an issue. This, of course, is a failing when we are trying to make moral judgements that will affect others, such as formulating laws.

OTOH emotivism does have a convincing grounding. We might hear the argument from (A) 'social healthcare is wrong - reason, reason, reason' and another person (B) says 'social healthcare is right - reason, reason, reason'. The emotivist will hear from (A) 'I don't like social healthcare'; from (B) 'I like social healthcare'.

I think there is truth in this. The emotivist cannot deny, rationalize or project. They have to come clean on the feelings which drive all that cover up baloney.

Alex.
Alex,

If you say so, I will defer to your expertise.

Based on what you say, I would expect emotivists to default to herding more often than non-emotivists.

The Elliott Wavers have speculated that humans outside their area of expertise, and with a dearth of knowledge, will turn to their emotions as to the arbiter of whether their decisions/behavior are correct/appropriate. Due to evolutionary process (?), humans find a sense of being right when herding (safety in numbers).

All kinds of manias have existed for eons, financial, fashion, doomer porn, hobbies, housing, religion, etc.
emotions go up and down for their own reasons constantly - the people around you, your diet, your health and many more besides.

the people that cant take a deep breath and think but instead base their opinions on emotions are downright scary, its best to smile and nod and walk backwards slowly.
ultracrepidarian
Simple Minded

Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote:
emotions go up and down for their own reasons constantly - the people around you, your diet, your health and many more besides.

the people that cant take a deep breath and think but instead base their opinions on emotions are downright scary, its best to smile and nod and walk backwards slowly.
Amen.

Useful idiots are often used as cannon fodder. Both religious/political kind and the gunpowder kind.
manolo
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Post by manolo »

Simple Minded wrote: Based on what you say, I would expect emotivists to default to herding more often than non-emotivists.

The Elliott Wavers have speculated that humans outside their area of expertise, and with a dearth of knowledge, will turn to their emotions as to the arbiter of whether their decisions/behavior are correct/appropriate. Due to evolutionary process (?), humans find a sense of being right when herding (safety in numbers).

All kinds of manias have existed for eons, financial, fashion, doomer porn, hobbies, housing, religion, etc.
SM,

You have made a good move. The idea that our emotions are governed by others' emotions could compromise the emotivist theory, if the emotivist theory was individualist.

I will have to peruse this for an answer:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Book

Alex.
Simple Minded

Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Post by Simple Minded »

Alex,

Just a few days ago, I did not know "emotivists" even existed. Now that they are categorized as a species, I am expert. :o

I am proposing that, as a species, they are endangered by AGW, racism, wealth inequality, transgender hatred, and a lack of gun control.

There outa be some federal funded teats on those subjects that I can suckle for at least a couple years.

I'm gonna need at least a staff of three to get coffee, help with statistics, remind me to roll up my car windows if it looks like rain, and spell check my Word documents......
manolo
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Post by manolo »

Simple Minded wrote:Alex,

Just a few days ago, I did not know "emotivists" even existed. Now that they are categorized as a species, I am expert. :o

I am proposing that, as a species, they are endangered by AGW, racism, wealth inequality, transgender hatred, and a lack of gun control.

There outa be some federal funded teats on those subjects that I can suckle for at least a couple years.

I'm gonna need at least a staff of three to get coffee, help with statistics, remind me to roll up my car windows if it looks like rain, and spell check my Word documents......
SM,

Emotivism is a philosophical term, rather than a sociological one. The idea is about examining one's own conscience. It is a kind of Cartesian analysis, requiring us to pare down to a basic experience. It is a subjective theory, relying on a reduction, such as 'I like sugar' works in perception.

For example, on the 'death sentence' issue we hear all kinds of arguments for and against. The emotivist will claim that differing arguments tend to be chosen by folks who already prefer a death penalty or don't prefer a death penalty.

Regarding cultural schools of thought, emotivism is a good test of our honesty with ourselves. For example, I believe that abortion is wrong, and having listened to all the arguments this way and that I still believe that abortion is wrong. I don't have an argument to justify that belief, I just feel it in my waters, so to speak. That's emotive.

Alex.
noddy
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Post by noddy »

i would call those instincts and put them in a different grouping to emotions.
ultracrepidarian
manolo
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Post by manolo »

noddy wrote:i would call those instincts and put them in a different grouping to emotions.
noddy,

'Instinctivism' doesn't have quite the same ring, but I see your point.

Alex.
Simple Minded

Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Post by Simple Minded »

manolo wrote:
SM,

Emotivism is a philosophical term, rather than a sociological one. The idea is about examining one's own conscience. It is a kind of Cartesian analysis, requiring us to pare down to a basic experience. It is a subjective theory, relying on a reduction, such as 'I like sugar' works in perception.

For example, on the 'death sentence' issue we hear all kinds of arguments for and against. The emotivist will claim that differing arguments tend to be chosen by folks who already prefer a death penalty or don't prefer a death penalty.

Regarding cultural schools of thought, emotivism is a good test of our honesty with ourselves. For example, I believe that abortion is wrong, and having listened to all the arguments this way and that I still believe that abortion is wrong. I don't have an argument to justify that belief, I just feel it in my waters, so to speak. That's emotive.

Alex.
Alex,

That is pretty easy to agree with, almost self-evident. There are many issues in which "right" or "wrong" are impossible to "prove." The very definition of those three terms are subjective. Therefore, most if not all humans will default to "according to my experience," or "according to my belief system" or "these are the sacrifices or costs I am willing to endure to live in consistent accordance with my ideals" as the final arbiter.

Why? Cause my ideals are right. Or, because I don't want to pay for the Ferrari.

Of course, this is all in reference to a single individual. When one tries to account for "the good of society," actual program costs & benefits, time frames, and who gives, who takes, and who gets to wield the weapons of enforcement to ensure compliance, it gets even more contentious.

One of the things I am constantly reminded of, by OTNOT posters, by the talking heads of the MSM, and by all who preach/proselytize/broadcast........is that IMSMO, the differing opinions are interesting, the banter and insults are amusing, but the endless parsing of who is the divine keeper who gets to define what the meaning of ______ is, gets tedious.

I think that is why all broadcasters and posters have a very limited shelf life, after a few months or years, the terminology in the chic lexicon needs to be changed.
manolo
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Post by manolo »

Simple Minded wrote: Of course, this is all in reference to a single individual.
SM,

Quite so, and in a democracy that single individual has a vote. It's a blunt instrument, but all we've got.

Alex.
Simple Minded

Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Post by Simple Minded »

manolo wrote:
Simple Minded wrote: Of course, this is all in reference to a single individual.
SM,

Quite so, and in a democracy that single individual has a vote. It's a blunt instrument, but all we've got.

Alex.
True nuff, it is less a broadsword and more a bush hog. And that is even before we get involved with candidates and incumbents who know that unless they preach magic and alchemy to the lowest common denominator, in order to build the biggest tent, they will be thrown out of the game.

Between the extremes of the good news is we get the govt. we deserve, and the bad news is we get the govt. we deserve, there is something for everyone to enjoy or bemoan.

What's not to like? ;)
manolo
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Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Post by manolo »

Simple Minded wrote: True nuff, it is less a broadsword and more a bush hog. And that is even before we get involved with candidates and incumbents who know that unless they preach magic and alchemy to the lowest common denominator, in order to build the biggest tent, they will be thrown out of the game.

Between the extremes of the good news is we get the govt. we deserve, and the bad news is we get the govt. we deserve, there is something for everyone to enjoy or bemoan.

What's not to like? ;)
SM,

Getting back to the emotive. To some extent folks will vote according to their backgrounds and social positions. I've often heard people say 'I'm making some money now so best vote conservative'. As the self is what conservatism is about I can see the sense in that. However, in the social issues (abortion, death penalty etc) I still think that we can turn inward to our guts and vote what we feel on the issue. If that doesn't happen then moral philosophy is just sociology? Maybe it is for the person who it doesn't happen for.

Alex.
Simple Minded

Re: Bernie Sanders for president

Post by Simple Minded »

manolo wrote:
Simple Minded wrote: True nuff, it is less a broadsword and more a bush hog. And that is even before we get involved with candidates and incumbents who know that unless they preach magic and alchemy to the lowest common denominator, in order to build the biggest tent, they will be thrown out of the game.

Between the extremes of the good news is we get the govt. we deserve, and the bad news is we get the govt. we deserve, there is something for everyone to enjoy or bemoan.

What's not to like? ;)
SM,

Getting back to the emotive. To some extent folks will vote according to their backgrounds and social positions. I've often heard people say 'I'm making some money now so best vote conservative'. As the self is what conservatism is about I can see the sense in that. However, in the social issues (abortion, death penalty etc) I still think that we can turn inward to our guts and vote what we feel on the issue. If that doesn't happen then moral philosophy is just sociology? Maybe it is for the person who it doesn't happen for.

Alex.
Read the red sentence and the blue sentence again. The interesting aspect, to me, is how we can't get away from our selves. Neither red nor blue have achieved a split from self.

What type of person would want to or claim to be able to divorce themselves from a sense of self?

Someone having an OBE or an NDE?
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