Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

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NapLajoieonSteroids
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

noddy wrote:
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
noddy wrote:that argument only makes sense in murkia.

in my country we just dont have the same levels of violence to make it work - our criminals nearly always only kill other criminals and when they cockup and kill joe pulbic the police swat teams swat them

not freedom (tm) and yes, if we had a megalomaniac takeover it might be of concern, however we havent had one of those, so its not.

im not convinced me owning a gun would make that big a difference and im also not convinced i couldnt get one if and when i felt like i actually needed/wanted one.

the other argument americans like is if guns are banned only criminals have guns, well, thats true, and megalomaniac takeover makes criminals of us all.
What is the cop reach per square foot like there? How long would you wait for some kind of emergency service to get from Point A to the Point You're At?

'Round here, it would take an half and hour to 45 minutes for an ambulance to arrive. It'd probably take the police about an hour to get here.

How much does that effect the gun debate?
they would take forever, it would be over long before they arrived but it doesnt effect the debate because its so rare - my area is quite violent and on the edge of the middle class belt, i might get a home invasion, without guns and i might end up beaten up on the floor - it happens.

i also have a big meat cleaver (aka battle axe) and cast iron frypan (aka war hammer) hanging in the kitchen, for when im not liking whats knocking at the door.

Image

the murder rate is very low and once you get rid of the crimes of passion and the criminal upon criminal stats, its almost irrelevant.

how does your country count homicides statistically?

What I mean by that is: is every charge of homicide counted in the stats or do they simply count those attached to a guilty conviction in a court of law?
noddy
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Post by noddy »

its the count of victims.

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf ... tures82013

its really not a day to day issue for us, i cant relate to american fears.

our drug gangs are well integrated into our police forces, they use devil you know, containment policies that occasionally make it to the news papers as corruption allegations :)
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noddy
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Post by noddy »

if i lived in merkia, im sure id happily have a gun if i lived in an area which worshipped them.

i wear clothes in australia for simmilar reasons.
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NapLajoieonSteroids
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

noddy wrote:i wear clothes in australia for simmilar reasons.
And what do you wear on those occasions you are not in Australia? :)
noddy
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Post by noddy »

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
noddy wrote:i wear clothes in australia for simmilar reasons.
And what do you wear on those occasions you are not in Australia? :)
south pacific rules are lower in requirements than western offices, a tasteful covering of the sticky bits is sufficient.
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Simple Minded

Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote:its the count of victims.

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf ... tures82013

its really not a day to day issue for us, i cant relate to american fears.
Amen Bro! I can't relate to "American" fears either. I suspect fear is a local, not a national symptom.

Telling Mom or Gramma to give up her gun in the interest of community safety is liable to get the response of:

"Oh really? And I suppose that if I give up my fire extinguisher that'll make us safer too?"

Asking a specific "me" to sacrifice for the vague "we" always gets weird..... and personal, oddly enough.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Post by noddy »

Simple Minded wrote:
noddy wrote:its the count of victims.

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf ... tures82013

its really not a day to day issue for us, i cant relate to american fears.
Amen Bro! I can't relate to "American" fears either. I suspect fear is a local, not a national symptom.

Telling Mom or Gramma to give up her gun in the interest of community safety is liable to get the response of:

"Oh really? And I suppose that if I give up my fire extinguisher that'll make us safer too?"

Asking a specific "me" to sacrifice for the vague "we" always gets weird..... and personal, oddly enough.
the granny that lives next to me is mostly blind and too frail to operate a telephone, a gun wouldnt help her at all.

for me personally, im currently larger and uglier than the skinny little speed junkie types, its not in my interest to level the playing field with guns, id much rather it stayed with crude club weapons in the hallway and me with the advantage of weight and reach.

heh.

damn those venn diagrams!
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Simple Minded

Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:
noddy wrote:its the count of victims.

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf ... tures82013

its really not a day to day issue for us, i cant relate to american fears.
Amen Bro! I can't relate to "American" fears either. I suspect fear is a local, not a national symptom.

Telling Mom or Gramma to give up her gun in the interest of community safety is liable to get the response of:

"Oh really? And I suppose that if I give up my fire extinguisher that'll make us safer too?"

Asking a specific "me" to sacrifice for the vague "we" always gets weird..... and personal, oddly enough.
the granny that lives next to me is mostly blind and too frail to operate a telephone, a gun wouldnt help her at all.

for me personally, im currently larger and uglier than the skinny little speed junkie types, its not in my interest to level the playing field with guns, id much rather it stayed with crude club weapons in the hallway and me with the advantage of weight and reach.

heh.

damn those venn diagrams!
Still thinking about "me" and not "we," eh? Wot's the strine term for selfish bastard? :)

Don't feel bad bout the circles in Stralia not intersecting with the circles in Merika. Neither do the circles in Yurope. Or for that matter the circles in upstate New York and the greater metropolitan area of NYC.

As long as they watch Deliverance, and we watch Escape from New York....... we're all happy living in the separate worlds of imagination.

The Catskills make a good fence.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Post by noddy »

im just arguing for the sake of it :)

its no concern to me how the laws on guns pan out.
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NapLajoieonSteroids
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

Simple Minded wrote:The Catskills make a good fence.
It's true, rugged individuals possess good cat skills in general.

But are we really happy to live in 'different circles of imagination'?

Isn't half this argument a failure to bring bubbles together?
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Post by noddy »

mix deliverance and escape from new york and gone with the wind into the one movie ?

snake escapes the psycho gang ghettos only to find himself trussed like a pig in the forest while the slave owning, one percenter dandy watches it from the elysium low orbiting satellite.

---

more seriously, i think are heading towards that things which are together can only fall apart stage of the game were the cut the baby in half point of view is beating out the moderation one.

woot, i managed to combine chinese and jewish cultural bumper stickers in one handy sound bite of intellectually lazy drivel.
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Simple Minded

Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote:im just arguing for the sake of it :)

its no concern to me how the laws on guns pan out.
That has been both obvious to me, and most appreciated for a long time Bro. Arguing for the sake of arguing, and exposing our personal beliefs, prejudices, and humor is far more interesting (to me anyway) than the proselytizing of those who believe in their own superiority.

That's why I like the video Number One with a Bullet, it exposes a lot of myths. But discussing problems as local phenomena or as a matter of personal responsibility gets too sticky for many. Better to discuss the nebulous we or nation.

"Personal Responsibility" is the WMD of micro aggression!
Simple Minded

Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Post by Simple Minded »

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:The Catskills make a good fence.
It's true, rugged individuals possess good cat skills in general.

But are we really happy to live in 'different circles of imagination'?
In general, I would say yes, most are happy where they are, otherwise they would move or change their thinking.

On the other hand, as Gurdjieff noted "The last thing a man wants to give up is the cause of his suffering!" It creates that all important sense of "noble suffering."

"If I don't find fault with the world (or the others), how can I fix it (or them)?"

On a more philosophical level, "we" can never be happy since it is a personal, internal state of mind.


NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: Isn't half this argument a failure to bring bubbles together?
Suddenly "we" should not celebrate diversity? :shock:

RASCIST! MISOGYNIST! ELITEST! MICRO-AGGRESSOR! (dumping philosophy for politics!) :)
Last edited by Simple Minded on Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Simple Minded

Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote:mix deliverance and escape from new york and gone with the wind into the one movie ?

snake escapes the psycho gang ghettos only to find himself trussed like a pig in the forest while the slave owning, one percenter dandy watches it from the elysium low orbiting satellite.

---
:lol: That may be the Hollywood movie that FINALLY solves the immigration problem and allows the Non-Amero snobs to feel better about themselves and their own countries.
noddy wrote: more seriously, i think are heading towards that things which are together can only fall apart stage of the game were the cut the baby in half point of view is beating out the moderation one.
---
Perhaps, but when hasn't "humanity" been both the source of the problem, and the ideal solution?
noddy wrote: woot, i managed to combine chinese and jewish cultural bumper stickers in one handy sound bite of intellectually lazy drivel.

You are the wisest among us OTNOT gods. Get out of programming and into political advising. Big $$$$ await you!
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Post by Typhoon »

Typhoon wrote: . . .
manolo wrote:The stuff about home defence is weird to me.
It is irrational.
I simply would not want to be sitting in a MacDonald's in downtown Chicago surrounded by a bunch of incompetent make-believe militia types openly carrying firearms. Same with concealed carry, for that matter.

. . .
Image

Having to walk around everywhere with a semi-automatic assault rifle and a shotgun just in order "to be safe"?

Even to order a cheeseburger?

Seriously?
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Post by kmich »

Typhoon wrote:
Typhoon wrote: . . .
manolo wrote:The stuff about home defence is weird to me.
It is irrational.
I simply would not want to be sitting in a MacDonald's in downtown Chicago surrounded by a bunch of incompetent make-believe militia types openly carrying firearms. Same with concealed carry, for that matter.

. . .
Image

Having to walk around everywhere with a semi-automatic assault rifle and a shotgun just in order "to be safe"?

Even to order a cheeseburger?

Seriously?
Obviously an assault rifle and a riot shotgun have no practical application at a restaurant other than for paranoid screwballs. Most likely, these are just people wanting to drawing attention to themselves by making a statement about what gun-toting, 2nd Amendment badasses they are. A blindingly stupid and inconsiderate gesture, but there are a lot of people out there whose sense of citizenship is rather crude and primitive. I cannot see how openly demonstrating and celebrating citizens arming themselves against each other is at all conducive to a civil society.

Unless you are in the security or police profession, live in a particularly bad neighborhood, or hunt for food or sport, firearms are risky and impractical for most people. A disclaimer – I grew up with firearms and have owned them for years. I have dealt with more than my share of people with gunshot injuries who would have been much better off without them. I am starting to wonder why I am still keeping mine around.
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Home Defense.....

Post by monster_gardener »

Typhoon wrote:
manolo wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
manolo wrote:
The gun show’s owner, Bob Templeton, is a Utah resident. He explained to the Times that the huge crowd in attendance was there “for two reasons — the safety of their family and President Obama’s call for more gun control.”
Folks,

I won't try to understand the first reason. I understand the words, but the sentence eludes.

Alex.
Every nation has it's irrational fears, myths, and beliefs.

I would simply find it odd, unsettling, and unappealing to live in a society wherein carrying a firearm in an urban setting,
for supposed personal protection, would be the norm.
Also the trouble to going through commando level training in the use of firearms to learn properly how to kill other firearm carrying people.
I would consider this obligatory for myself, if the purpose of the firearm was indeed so-called self-defense,
as there is no greater fool than an untrained fool with a firearm.
And the hassle of keeping of keeping one's skills up, as unlike with a driving license, one presumably does not get into firearm fights on a daily basis.

In the end, too much effort and trouble over low probability events. I think my time is better spent in other pursuits.

Note that, to me, this is completely different than the rural setting with the farmer or rancher with a multi-generation old rifle or shotgun in the pickup.
To be used to, say, defend livestock from predators or supplement the family meal with some fresh game.
That's just a way of life.
Typhoon,

The odd thing is, that I can understand someone wanting a gun because they like them. My guess is that 'I like them' is the real reason under the skin of most gun enthusiasts.
That's the purpose of firearm clubs and ranges.
No issue with such activities either.

[ Years ago having fired pistol, rifle, sawed off shotgun, submachine gun and machine gun I found the experiences interesting,
although not interesting enough to continue either as a hobby or as a career. ]
manolo wrote:The stuff about home defence is weird to me.
It is irrational.
I simply would not want to be sitting in a MacDonald's in downtown Chicago surrounded by a bunch of incompetent make-believe militia types openly carrying firearms. Same with concealed carry, for that matter.
manolo wrote:I can certainly understand the Obama thing. It was like that here with smoking; lots of people complained about losing their right to smoke in bars. Same issue with booze too. I know a girl who visited the US at aged 19 and was miffed when she couldn't buy a glass of wine! Too many government rules and regulations is a turn off for many people, including me.

Alex.
An infantilized population is a docile population.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Typhoon,
Typhoon wrote:
manolo wrote:The stuff about home defence is weird to me.
The stuff about home defence is weird to me.
It is irrational.
I simply would not want to be sitting in a MacDonald's in downtown Chicago surrounded by a bunch of incompetent make-believe militia types openly carrying firearms. Same with concealed carry, for that matter.
Being armed in McDonald's can be self defense but it is not home defense.........

And there is nothing weird about wanting to have an equalizer in the house for use against home invaders........*


Don't want to have to shoot a home invader but...........

Even more so I don't want to get into a knife/club fight or go hand to hand with such a perp inside my home........

Telling him or her "Leave NOW! I have a gun! Police are on their way!"

With the force of conviction that the truth gives and being able to back the threat with that truth........

Is a GOOD thing...........


* Also remembering Ye Olde English ;-) tradition of having a blunderbuss at hand on the wall to deal with such creatures/"things that go bump in the night".......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blunderbuss
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Post by Simple Minded »

Typhoon wrote:
Typhoon wrote: . . .
manolo wrote:The stuff about home defence is weird to me.
It is irrational.
I simply would not want to be sitting in a MacDonald's in downtown Chicago surrounded by a bunch of incompetent make-believe militia types openly carrying firearms. Same with concealed carry, for that matter.

. . .
Image

Having to walk around everywhere with a semi-automatic assault rifle and a shotgun just in order "to be safe"?

Even to order a cheeseburger?

Seriously?
Typhoon & Alex,

The discomfort with a foreign culture is perfectly understandable. Warm beer and chopsticks are irrational to most Americans.

Pictures on the internet turn even the best of us into lawn chair psychics. Sad, but true.

Travel broadens the mind. Go to an open carry state, sit in a restaurant, and buy a cup of coffee for the next 4 people who are open carrying. Ask them why. You might find out they are not nuts.

Virginia is an open carry state (Don't even think about going near DC), someone walks into a restaurant with a gun on their hip, and no one cares.

Did you notice the mounted head in the upper right of the picture? Lunch counter at a big hunting camp or range?
Simple Minded

Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Post by Simple Minded »

kmich wrote:
Obviously an assault rifle and a riot shotgun have no practical application at a restaurant other than for paranoid screwballs. Most likely, these are just people wanting to drawing attention to themselves by making a statement about what gun-toting, 2nd Amendment badasses they are. A blindingly stupid and inconsiderate gesture, but there are a lot of people out there whose sense of citizenship is rather crude and primitive. I cannot see how openly demonstrating and celebrating citizens arming themselves against each other is at all conducive to a civil society.

Unless you are in the security or police profession, live in a particularly bad neighborhood, or hunt for food or sport, firearms are risky and impractical for most people. A disclaimer – I grew up with firearms and have owned them for years. I have dealt with more than my share of people with gunshot injuries who would have been much better off without them. I am starting to wonder why I am still keeping mine around.
kmich,

Stereotypes, projections, and prejudices are fascinating. Tell a Nurse or doctor you own a motorcycle, and don't be surprised to hear "You know what we call motorcyclists at the hospital? Organ donors!"

I spent about 10 or 12 years as a member of the board of directors of a local Humane Society/Animal Shelter. Tell someone you own a Rottweiler attack dog, and at least 75% of that crowd will consider you to be a paranoid misanthrope/drug dealer one step about child molester and one step below a gun owner.

I know, I know, to you it is not an attack dog, just like to some people an AR-15 is a semi-automatic rifle and to others it is an assault weapon. it is the privilege of the observer to determine the labels.

Personally, I think good for you. I like that breed. Bold. My neighbor's Rottie jumped thru the screen and out the second story window one day when the owner was running an errand. Some of my neighbors would have shot it (cause they felt they or their children were threatened, similarly to how some feel whenever they see a gun), and some others would have called animal control. I got some treats and a leash and brought it over to my house till the owner got home.

Whatever it takes for you to feel secure is no one's business but your own. You probably spent more on that dog and liability insurance than a poor person spends on a pistol. Am I right? Want to share the cost of the dog, training, and insurance?

Live and let live is getting rare in the US these days. I own guns, dogs, and motorcycles. Always strikes me as strange that people fear or dislike any of the three. Oh well, my culture is different from theirs.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Post by Doc »

kmich wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Typhoon wrote: . . .
manolo wrote:The stuff about home defence is weird to me.
It is irrational.
I simply would not want to be sitting in a MacDonald's in downtown Chicago surrounded by a bunch of incompetent make-believe militia types openly carrying firearms. Same with concealed carry, for that matter.

. . .
Image

Having to walk around everywhere with a semi-automatic assault rifle and a shotgun just in order "to be safe"?

Even to order a cheeseburger?

Seriously?
Obviously an assault rifle and a riot shotgun have no practical application at a restaurant other than for paranoid screwballs. .
That would depend on how fresh the food is.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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kmich
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Post by kmich »

Simple Minded wrote:
kmich wrote:
Obviously an assault rifle and a riot shotgun have no practical application at a restaurant other than for paranoid screwballs. Most likely, these are just people wanting to drawing attention to themselves by making a statement about what gun-toting, 2nd Amendment badasses they are. A blindingly stupid and inconsiderate gesture, but there are a lot of people out there whose sense of citizenship is rather crude and primitive. I cannot see how openly demonstrating and celebrating citizens arming themselves against each other is at all conducive to a civil society.

Unless you are in the security or police profession, live in a particularly bad neighborhood, or hunt for food or sport, firearms are risky and impractical for most people. A disclaimer – I grew up with firearms and have owned them for years. I have dealt with more than my share of people with gunshot injuries who would have been much better off without them. I am starting to wonder why I am still keeping mine around.
kmich,

Stereotypes, projections, and prejudices are fascinating. Tell a Nurse or doctor you own a motorcycle, and don't be surprised to hear "You know what we call motorcyclists at the hospital? Organ donors!"

I spent about 10 or 12 years as a member of the board of directors of a local Humane Society/Animal Shelter. Tell someone you own a Rottweiler attack dog, and at least 75% of that crowd will consider you to be a paranoid misanthrope/drug dealer one step about child molester and one step below a gun owner.

I know, I know, to you it is not an attack dog, just like to some people an AR-15 is a semi-automatic rifle and to others it is an assault weapon. it is the privilege of the observer to determine the labels.

Personally, I think good for you. I like that breed. Bold. My neighbor's Rottie jumped thru the screen and out the second story window one day when the owner was running an errand. Some of my neighbors would have shot it (cause they felt they or their children were threatened, similarly to how some feel whenever they see a gun), and some others would have called animal control. I got some treats and a leash and brought it over to my house till the owner got home.

Whatever it takes for you to feel secure is no one's business but your own. You probably spent more on that dog and liability insurance than a poor person spends on a pistol. Am I right? Want to share the cost of the dog, training, and insurance?

Live and let live is getting rare in the US these days. I own guns, dogs, and motorcycles. Always strikes me as strange that people fear or dislike any of the three. Oh well, my culture is different from theirs.
So what? I wouldn't bring my dog into a restaurant.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Post by Parodite »

Signs saying "Smoking allowed in here" or "Smoking not allowed in here" at the entry of a restaurant should IMO be a choice of the owner of a restaurant. Each will naturally attract the "right" kind of customers. Free to choose. Same for carrying fire arms in restaurants? Why not.. would also make it easier for the police to check licences and do background checks. In fact, every police office should have a restaurant like that where all gun carriers can check out each other and compare dicks.
Deep down I'm very superficial
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Post by manolo »

Simple Minded wrote: Oh well, my culture is different from theirs.
SM,

Fact. :)

Alex
Simple Minded

Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Post by Simple Minded »

Doc wrote:
kmich wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Typhoon wrote: . . .
manolo wrote:The stuff about home defence is weird to me.
It is irrational.
I simply would not want to be sitting in a MacDonald's in downtown Chicago surrounded by a bunch of incompetent make-believe militia types openly carrying firearms. Same with concealed carry, for that matter.

. . .
Image

Having to walk around everywhere with a semi-automatic assault rifle and a shotgun just in order "to be safe"?

Even to order a cheeseburger?

Seriously?
Obviously an assault rifle and a riot shotgun have no practical application at a restaurant other than for paranoid screwballs. .
That would depend on how fresh the food is.

:lol:
Simple Minded

Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Post by Simple Minded »

Parodite wrote:Signs saying "Smoking allowed in here" or "Smoking not allowed in here" at the entry of a restaurant should IMO be a choice of the owner of a restaurant. Each will naturally attract the "right" kind of customers. Free to choose. Same for carrying fire arms in restaurants? Why not.. would also make it easier for the police to check licences and do background checks. In fact, every police office should have a restaurant like that where all gun carriers can check out each other and compare dicks.
That is exactly the law here Bro. All private business owners/managers can post any variation of "No Guns Allowed" or "Guns Welcome" signs they want as they see fit, and many do. Not unusual to see either.

Did you think that gun rights trump property rights in the US?

I think the checking out dicks part would violate the search and seizure clause (4th Amendment?) of the Constitution. ;)
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