Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Simple Minded » Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:04 pm

manolo wrote:
Simple Minded wrote: Oh well, my culture is different from theirs.


SM,

Fact. :)

Alex


;) and the days of celebrating diversity are long gone...... :(

To some, gun owners are the new niggers, to others it is motorcycle owners.

I think that not only is the gun issue highly localized, it is very much a rich vs. poor issue. Like the crossbow before it, guns are equalizers. The rich had armored trained knights on armored trained horses, POTUS has the Secret Service, the Kennedy have compounds with paid armed security, the poor person buys a cheap pistol. It would be interesting to poll gun sentiment and filter it by both income/net worth and location. I'll bet the high dollar zip codes are elitist.

As we have discussed before the "we" vs. "me" controversy is eternal (& entertaining, to me). And in the name of "the common good," almost any stomping of an individual who just doesn't get it and therefore doesn't conform, can be justified. IE: your motorcycle accident and banning motorcycles outright, or just forbidding old-farts from owning motorcycles.

Localized culture is why all politics is local. Fascinating to hear opinions from the non-locals regarding the culture with which they are not familiar.

Back on the home planet, in grade school we recited the old Indian poem about not judging others until we have walked a mile in their moccasins. Corny huh? Now micro-aggressions are proof of one's chic elitism...... :P
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Simple Minded » Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:08 pm

kmich wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:
kmich wrote:
Obviously an assault rifle and a riot shotgun have no practical application at a restaurant other than for paranoid screwballs. Most likely, these are just people wanting to drawing attention to themselves by making a statement about what gun-toting, 2nd Amendment badasses they are. A blindingly stupid and inconsiderate gesture, but there are a lot of people out there whose sense of citizenship is rather crude and primitive. I cannot see how openly demonstrating and celebrating citizens arming themselves against each other is at all conducive to a civil society.

Unless you are in the security or police profession, live in a particularly bad neighborhood, or hunt for food or sport, firearms are risky and impractical for most people. A disclaimer – I grew up with firearms and have owned them for years. I have dealt with more than my share of people with gunshot injuries who would have been much better off without them. I am starting to wonder why I am still keeping mine around.


kmich,

Stereotypes, projections, and prejudices are fascinating. Tell a Nurse or doctor you own a motorcycle, and don't be surprised to hear "You know what we call motorcyclists at the hospital? Organ donors!"

I spent about 10 or 12 years as a member of the board of directors of a local Humane Society/Animal Shelter. Tell someone you own a Rottweiler attack dog, and at least 75% of that crowd will consider you to be a paranoid misanthrope/drug dealer one step about child molester and one step below a gun owner.

I know, I know, to you it is not an attack dog, just like to some people an AR-15 is a semi-automatic rifle and to others it is an assault weapon. it is the privilege of the observer to determine the labels.

Personally, I think good for you. I like that breed. Bold. My neighbor's Rottie jumped thru the screen and out the second story window one day when the owner was running an errand. Some of my neighbors would have shot it (cause they felt they or their children were threatened, similarly to how some feel whenever they see a gun), and some others would have called animal control. I got some treats and a leash and brought it over to my house till the owner got home.

Whatever it takes for you to feel secure is no one's business but your own. You probably spent more on that dog and liability insurance than a poor person spends on a pistol. Am I right? Want to share the cost of the dog, training, and insurance?

Live and let live is getting rare in the US these days. I own guns, dogs, and motorcycles. Always strikes me as strange that people fear or dislike any of the three. Oh well, my culture is different from theirs.


So what? I wouldn't bring my dog into a restaurant.


Of course you don't bring your "attack dog" ;) into a restaurant. It's illegal. Only service animals are allowed in restaurants. :P

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Re: Home Defense.....

Postby Typhoon » Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:04 pm

monster_gardener wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
manolo wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
manolo wrote:
The gun show’s owner, Bob Templeton, is a Utah resident. He explained to the Times that the huge crowd in attendance was there “for two reasons — the safety of their family and President Obama’s call for more gun control.”


Folks,

I won't try to understand the first reason. I understand the words, but the sentence eludes.

Alex.


Every nation has it's irrational fears, myths, and beliefs.

I would simply find it odd, unsettling, and unappealing to live in a society wherein carrying a firearm in an urban setting,
for supposed personal protection, would be the norm.
Also the trouble to going through commando level training in the use of firearms to learn properly how to kill other firearm carrying people.
I would consider this obligatory for myself, if the purpose of the firearm was indeed so-called self-defense,
as there is no greater fool than an untrained fool with a firearm.
And the hassle of keeping of keeping one's skills up, as unlike with a driving license, one presumably does not get into firearm fights on a daily basis.

In the end, too much effort and trouble over low probability events. I think my time is better spent in other pursuits.

Note that, to me, this is completely different than the rural setting with the farmer or rancher with a multi-generation old rifle or shotgun in the pickup.
To be used to, say, defend livestock from predators or supplement the family meal with some fresh game.
That's just a way of life.


Typhoon,

The odd thing is, that I can understand someone wanting a gun because they like them. My guess is that 'I like them' is the real reason under the skin of most gun enthusiasts.


That's the purpose of firearm clubs and ranges.
No issue with such activities either.

[ Years ago having fired pistol, rifle, sawed off shotgun, submachine gun and machine gun I found the experiences interesting,
although not interesting enough to continue either as a hobby or as a career. ]

manolo wrote:The stuff about home defence is weird to me.


It is irrational.
I simply would not want to be sitting in a MacDonald's in downtown Chicago surrounded by a bunch of incompetent make-believe militia types openly carrying firearms. Same with concealed carry, for that matter.

manolo wrote:I can certainly understand the Obama thing. It was like that here with smoking; lots of people complained about losing their right to smoke in bars. Same issue with booze too. I know a girl who visited the US at aged 19 and was miffed when she couldn't buy a glass of wine! Too many government rules and regulations is a turn off for many people, including me.

Alex.


An infantilized population is a docile population.


Thank You Very Much for your post, Typhoon,

Typhoon wrote:
manolo wrote:The stuff about home defence is weird to me.

The stuff about home defence is weird to me.
It is irrational.
I simply would not want to be sitting in a MacDonald's in downtown Chicago surrounded by a bunch of incompetent make-believe militia types openly carrying firearms. Same with concealed carry, for that matter.


Being armed in McDonald's can be self defense but it is not home defense.........

And there is nothing weird about wanting to have an equalizer in the house for use against home invaders........*


Don't want to have to shoot a home invader but...........

Even more so I don't want to get into a knife/club fight or go hand to hand with such a perp inside my home........

Telling him or her "Leave NOW! I have a gun! Police are on their way!"

With the force of conviction that the truth gives and being able to back the threat with that truth........

Is a GOOD thing...........


* Also remembering Ye Olde English ;-) tradition of having a blunderbuss at hand on the wall to deal with such creatures/"things that go bump in the night".......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blunderbuss


Not so sure about the home defense argument:

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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Typhoon » Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:07 pm

Simple Minded wrote:
Doc wrote:
kmich wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Typhoon wrote: . . .

manolo wrote:The stuff about home defence is weird to me.


It is irrational.
I simply would not want to be sitting in a MacDonald's in downtown Chicago surrounded by a bunch of incompetent make-believe militia types openly carrying firearms. Same with concealed carry, for that matter.

. . .


Image

Having to walk around everywhere with a semi-automatic assault rifle and a shotgun just in order "to be safe"?

Even to order a cheeseburger?

Seriously?


Obviously an assault rifle and a riot shotgun have no practical application at a restaurant other than for paranoid screwballs. .


That would depend on how fresh the food is.

:lol:


Very good.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Simple Minded » Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:10 pm

Typhoon wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:
Doc wrote:
kmich wrote:
Obviously an assault rifle and a riot shotgun have no practical application at a restaurant other than for paranoid screwballs. .


That would depend on how fresh the food is.

:lol:


Very good.


Don't forget employee and customer safety. Imagine you're in one of those fancy restaurants with the tank full of live lobsters. One jumps out and charges towards the dining room...... It would be good to know that one of the waitress is a Katana Girl or Annie Oakley wannna be......
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby kmich » Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:18 pm

Simple Minded wrote:
kmich wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:
kmich wrote:
Obviously an assault rifle and a riot shotgun have no practical application at a restaurant other than for paranoid screwballs. Most likely, these are just people wanting to drawing attention to themselves by making a statement about what gun-toting, 2nd Amendment badasses they are. A blindingly stupid and inconsiderate gesture, but there are a lot of people out there whose sense of citizenship is rather crude and primitive. I cannot see how openly demonstrating and celebrating citizens arming themselves against each other is at all conducive to a civil society.

Unless you are in the security or police profession, live in a particularly bad neighborhood, or hunt for food or sport, firearms are risky and impractical for most people. A disclaimer – I grew up with firearms and have owned them for years. I have dealt with more than my share of people with gunshot injuries who would have been much better off without them. I am starting to wonder why I am still keeping mine around.


kmich,

Stereotypes, projections, and prejudices are fascinating. Tell a Nurse or doctor you own a motorcycle, and don't be surprised to hear "You know what we call motorcyclists at the hospital? Organ donors!"

I spent about 10 or 12 years as a member of the board of directors of a local Humane Society/Animal Shelter. Tell someone you own a Rottweiler attack dog, and at least 75% of that crowd will consider you to be a paranoid misanthrope/drug dealer one step about child molester and one step below a gun owner.

I know, I know, to you it is not an attack dog, just like to some people an AR-15 is a semi-automatic rifle and to others it is an assault weapon. it is the privilege of the observer to determine the labels.

Personally, I think good for you. I like that breed. Bold. My neighbor's Rottie jumped thru the screen and out the second story window one day when the owner was running an errand. Some of my neighbors would have shot it (cause they felt they or their children were threatened, similarly to how some feel whenever they see a gun), and some others would have called animal control. I got some treats and a leash and brought it over to my house till the owner got home.

Whatever it takes for you to feel secure is no one's business but your own. You probably spent more on that dog and liability insurance than a poor person spends on a pistol. Am I right? Want to share the cost of the dog, training, and insurance?

Live and let live is getting rare in the US these days. I own guns, dogs, and motorcycles. Always strikes me as strange that people fear or dislike any of the three. Oh well, my culture is different from theirs.


So what? I wouldn't bring my dog into a restaurant.


Of course you don't bring your "attack dog" ;) into a restaurant. It's illegal. Only service animals are allowed in restaurants. :P

Internet pictures are inkblots. Fascinating when the observer describes what they read into the picture. Says more about the observer, than about the picture. Nothing more.


More psychobabble to avoid dealing with the issue and to stay "above it all." ;)
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Nonc Hilaire » Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:28 pm

Simple Minded wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:
Doc wrote:
kmich wrote:
Obviously an assault rifle and a riot shotgun have no practical application at a restaurant other than for paranoid screwballs. .


That would depend on how fresh the food is.
:lol:


Very good.


Don't forget employee and customer safety. Imagine you're in one of those fancy restaurants with the tank full of live lobsters. One jumps out and charges towards the dining room...... It would be good to know that one of the waitress is a Katana Girl or Annie Oakley wannna be......

Possible. Those lobsters train by running marathons. They still have their little wristbands on.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Simple Minded » Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:34 pm

kmich wrote:
More psychobabble to avoid dealing with the issue and to stay "above it all." ;)


:D That's what makes this topic so much fun.

Imagination rules our perspectives and no one is above preaching their own preferred brand of psychobabble, or how they can read the minds of people they don't know and have never met. Makes it really tough to take the opinions of the far away crowd seriously.

If you want to state "the issue," I promise I'll listen.

In the meantime, give the maneater a belly rub for me. ;) But for God's sake, unload him first, and engage the safety! :P
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby kmich » Sat Jan 16, 2016 12:57 am

Simple Minded wrote:
kmich wrote:
More psychobabble to avoid dealing with the issue and to stay "above it all." ;)


:D That's what makes this topic so much fun.

Imagination rules our perspectives and no one is above preaching their own preferred brand of psychobabble, or how they can read the minds of people they don't know and have never met. Makes it really tough to take the opinions of the far away crowd seriously.

Speak for yourself.

Simple Minded wrote:If you want to state "the issue," I promise I'll listen.


I doubt it. Maybe listen to some elements and then obfuscate with assorted, characteristic evasive musings in response most likely.

Simple Minded wrote:In the meantime, give the maneater a belly rub for me. ;) But for God's sake, unload him first, and engage the safety! :P

Sure will, he is a great companion and great with the grandkids in spite of people's '"maneater" stereotypes. ;)
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sat Jan 16, 2016 1:59 am

When 2 triangulators clash...
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sat Jan 16, 2016 2:01 am

Typhoon wrote:Having to walk around everywhere with a semi-automatic assault rifle and a shotgun just in order "to be safe"?

Even to order a cheeseburger?

Seriously?

Sure, why not.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sat Jan 16, 2016 2:05 am

manolo wrote:Typhoon,

The odd thing is, that I can understand someone wanting a gun because they like them. My guess is that 'I like them' is the real reason under the skin of most gun enthusiasts. The stuff about home defence is weird to me.

In many ways yes.

I can certainly understand the Obama thing. It was like that here with smoking; lots of people complained about losing their right to smoke in bars. Same issue with booze too. I know a girl who visited the US at aged 19 and was miffed when she couldn't buy a glass of wine! Too many government rules and regulations is a turn off for many people, including me.

Alex.

Yeah.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sat Jan 16, 2016 2:06 am

Heracleum Persicum wrote:Agree, really funny .. or .. soooo sad

What kind of people go to "gun-show" ? ?

What is there intellectually to see or enjoy ? ?

Really sad

.

I go to gun shows. A lot of fun. Think of a car show, or a boat show. Same thing.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sat Jan 16, 2016 2:09 am

Typhoon wrote:It is irrational.
I simply would not want to be sitting in a MacDonald's in downtown Chicago surrounded by a bunch of incompetent make-believe militia types openly carrying firearms. Same with concealed carry, for that matter.

Other than a phobia, why not.

An infantilized population is a docile population.

Hard to find anyone more infantile than a gun controller.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sat Jan 16, 2016 2:13 am

kmich wrote:
:roll:

What an overblown straw man; I never said or implied that. Implicit privileges and responsibilities have their embodiment in rule of law. It is probably too much to ask, but it might help to read and reflect before reacting.

The original Bill of Rights were designed to protect the states from the encroachment of federal power.

No, they were an enumeration of individual rights all governments had to respect.

Obviously, our legal and social contexts around the 2nd Amendment have evolved substantially since that time as reflected in the various court rulings, but none of those have ever revised the constitutional precedents to make gun ownership free of regulation.

Maybe, maybe not, but recent court action says we're almost there.

The lowest murder rate states have no gun control at the state level, at all, and there is no evidence, at all, that Federal gun control regs prevent one murder or crime.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sat Jan 16, 2016 2:50 am

YMix wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:Once one gets past the megalomaniacal stage of imposing national law in an attempt to solve local problems, all the friction goes away.


Actually, this is the heart of the problem, not guns. Two interested parties take opposite sides on an issue and an inelastic piece of legislation prevents a reasonable compromise.

The Constitution was the reasonable compromise.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sat Jan 16, 2016 2:52 am

YMix wrote:The piece of legislation is the Second Amendment. A reasonable compromise would allow the rurals to keep their weapons and the cities to ban them.

Actually we already have that and the cities have the murder problem as a result.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sat Jan 16, 2016 3:15 am

Prohibition for me and not for thee is what this comes down to.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Typhoon » Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:04 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:
Typhoon wrote:Having to walk around everywhere with a semi-automatic assault rifle and a shotgun just in order "to be safe"?

Even to order a cheeseburger?

Seriously?

Sure, why not.


Same reason I don't want amateurs wannabes around me bringing radioactive materials or biohazards to a MacDonalds,

it serve no purpose and exposes me to completely unnecessary risk.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Zack Morris » Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:52 am

Simple Minded wrote:
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
I can't argue with updating the bill of rights or party system because whether I agree or not with you there, those are huge undertakings that open up a whole lot more than just 'issue x, y and z'.

But when it comes to the 'culture wars' about guns, I don't see why the non-aggressive side (the pro-gun nuts) have to compromise here. They are supposed to give in because a group of people hold conflicting values with them? And on top of that, dropping all pretenses, that same group will not stop advocating for their position (nothing wrong with that) until they completely eliminate their opponents. They are not interested in compromises here- and the gun nuts are supposed to work with them?



amen Bro, the anti-guns nuts and the anti-abortion nuts are the aggressors.

If the Dems ever decide to not pay attention to guns, they will become the dominant party. If the Repubs ever decide to not pay attention to abortion, they will become the dominant party. Both are held captive by their bases, and the fact that both issues are excellent fundraising vehicles.


This is about "values" in the same way that vehicle licensing policy is about "values". Restrictions are rarely celebrated, especially when it concerns something that a large number of people have come to possess, and doubly so when one side of the "culture wars" has decided to plant their flag on it. Guns are a national problem because of the way they are trafficked. Of course high crime areas are going to have disproportionately higher gun crime as well. Duh!

A reasonable compromise is to introduce stringent, nation-wide licensing and tracking requirements. No need to grab anyone's guns (unless they fail to adhere to the rules), and a huge barrier is erected for would-be straw purchasers, who would either be linked to weapons that turn up in criminals' hands later or, better yet, appear on law enforcement radar when guns are mysteriously "lost" or cannot be produced at a mandatory check-in.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Typhoon » Sat Jan 16, 2016 5:12 am

Simple Minded wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Typhoon wrote: . . .

manolo wrote:The stuff about home defence is weird to me.


It is irrational.
I simply would not want to be sitting in a MacDonald's in downtown Chicago surrounded by a bunch of incompetent make-believe militia types openly carrying firearms. Same with concealed carry, for that matter.

. . .


Image

Having to walk around everywhere with a semi-automatic assault rifle and a shotgun just in order "to be safe"?

Even to order a cheeseburger?

Seriously?


Typhoon & Alex,

The discomfort with a foreign culture is perfectly understandable. Warm beer and chopsticks are irrational to most Americans.



Well, I've learn to prefer drinking Guiness warm.

As for chopsticks, unless you're Bruce Lee or Jackie Chan they hardly qualify as an offensive assault weapon.

Simple Minded wrote:Pictures on the internet turn even the best of us into lawn chair psychics. Sad, but true.

Travel broadens the mind. Go to an open carry state, sit in a restaurant, and buy a cup of coffee for the next 4 people who are open carrying. Ask them why. You might find out they are not nuts.


I did not claim that they are all nuts, although the one's that are proactive aggressive about open carry most probably are.

Most happen to strongly believe in a particular culture specific myth.

As for travel, a few years ago I counted the number of countries I'd traveled to and came up with 48.
Still have lots of countries on my bucket list. Never been to Africa.

Also, I counted a number of good old boys amongst the friends I made in the US Midwest.
Skilled techs were I worked who thought nothing of working to 1/100,000 of an inch* accuracy be it surveying or machining.
Harley riding, honky tonk drinking, country and western, gun owning, blue collar, git er done types.
Among my colleagues I was an anomaly in this regard. One thing I learned was how class segregated the US is.

Actually preferred their company to the senior people in my group who were precious West Coast types.
I'd rather chew off my arm than attend another dinner meeting only to listen to them go on and on about some restaurant in California that I'd never heard of.

*Learning the US customary system of units was a challenge.

Simple Minded wrote:Virginia is an open carry state (Don't even think about going near DC), someone walks into a restaurant with a gun on their hip, and no one cares.

Did you notice the mounted head in the upper right of the picture? Lunch counter at a big hunting camp or range?


I've been to Washington, DC a number of times. What I learned is that it, like many US cities including Chicago, is highly segregated in terms of risk of violence.
Just like nearby Baltimore.

I haven't been to Viriginia for over 10 years now. Don't recall seeing open carry back then.

The image was one of many. It's generic.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sat Jan 16, 2016 6:13 am

Typhoon wrote:Same reason I don't want amateurs wannabes around me bringing radioactive materials or biohazards to a MacDonalds,

But firearms are inert while radioactive materials and biohazards are not. It's apples and oranges.

it serve no purpose and exposes me to completely unnecessary risk.

We have good numbers on murders and accidental deaths, and there are thousands of things that will kill you before open carry militia members. And of course people that have concealed carry licenses are far less likely to murder people than those of you who do not.

It's an irrational fear that should not be the basis for prohibitions.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sat Jan 16, 2016 6:21 am

Zack Morris wrote:
This is about "values" in the same way that vehicle licensing policy is about "values". Restrictions are rarely celebrated, especially when it concerns something that a large number of people have come to possess, and doubly so when one side of the "culture wars" has decided to plant their flag on it. Guns are a national problem because of the way they are trafficked. Of course high crime areas are going to have disproportionately higher gun crime as well. Duh!

The issue is why do gun control districts lead the country in murder and crime.

The answer is because gun control doesn't work.

Also gun rights are written into the Constitution, it's not a "Culture War". It's plain written language.

A reasonable compromise is to introduce stringent, nation-wide licensing and tracking requirements. No need to grab anyone's guns (unless they fail to adhere to the rules), and a huge barrier is erected for would-be straw purchasers, who would either be linked to weapons that turn up in criminals' hands later or, better yet, appear on law enforcement radar when guns are mysteriously "lost" or cannot be produced at a mandatory check-in.

We already have these restrictions and they already don't work. Straw purchase is already illegal and it already doesn't deter or prevent crime. So it's not reasonable, even as a compromise.

As we discovered in the other thread, gun control doesn't work, even in Europe. So instead we should look at what causes murder in these Democrat districts.

But we won't, because if you want to find the root cause of murder in Democrat districts guns don't come up, and since Democrats have no interest in solving their murder problems but simply want to ban guns it's going to be just another case of Democrats being jackals as they head for the political grave.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sat Jan 16, 2016 7:07 am

Typhoon wrote:I did not claim that they are all nuts,

I know a lot of them, and none of them are nuts.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Typhoon » Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:54 pm

Mr. Perfect wrote:
Typhoon wrote:I did not claim that they are all nuts,

I know a lot of them, and none of them are nuts.


Your NRA colleagues think otherwise:

Typhoon wrote:OC in Texas

The new from Texas ain't quite so good.
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