Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Heracleum Persicum » Sat Jan 16, 2016 5:09 pm

Typhoon wrote:.

Image

.



Zero doubt people we encounter in daily life, on the street, in restaurant, in office, shopping etc etc, many of those people are for one or other reason "deranged", or have issues .. and, imagine they are armed .. imagine you eating in a restaurant and people sitting next tables are armed. :lol:

What's use to me when dead if the guy goes to jail .. no use to me

Better stay away

.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Typhoon » Sat Jan 16, 2016 5:13 pm

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Typhoon wrote:.

Image

.



Zero doubt people we encounter in daily life, on the street, in restaurant, in office, shopping etc etc, many of those people are for one or other reason "deranged", or have issues .. and, imagine they are armed .. imagine you eating in a restaurant and people sitting next tables are armed. :lol:

What's use to me when dead if the guy goes to jail .. no use to me

Better stay away

.


Quite.

I'm not sufficiently interested in the issue to risk my well being to investigate.

Far from it.

The world is a big and interesting place. Lot's of places to visit.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Zack Morris » Sat Jan 16, 2016 5:51 pm

Mr. Perfect wrote:The issue is why do gun control districts lead the country in murder and crime.


It doesn't. You've got correlation and causation backwards. A rookie mistake.

Also gun rights are written into the Constitution, it's not a "Culture War". It's plain written language.


Strong regulation is written in there, too. It's plain written language.

We already have these restrictions and they already don't work. Straw purchase is already illegal and it already doesn't deter or prevent crime. So it's not reasonable, even as a compromise.


No we don't. The restrictions are nominal at best and the fact that those opposed to Obama's baby step moves often invoke national gun databases as a next step they fear is telling. Making something illegal, like straw purchases, is pointless if there aren't means to detect such illegal behavior. You have to bring your car in for a smog inspection every few years. No reason why you shouldn't bring your guns in every year or two, either.

As we discovered in the other thread, gun control doesn't work, even in Europe. So instead we should look at what causes murder in these Democrat districts.


Gun control works fabulously well in Europe. Europe is a vastly safer place than the US. One of your favorite talking points used to be that outside of high-crime urban outliers, US crime levels were "comparable" to Western Europe's. You are more likely to be murdered in the US than in Europe. East Asia, where gun ownership is virtually unheard of, is on an even higher plane of safety, one that Americans and Western Europeans alike cannot even fathom until they go live there.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Doc » Sat Jan 16, 2016 6:34 pm

Zack Morris wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:The issue is why do gun control districts lead the country in murder and crime.


It doesn't. You've got correlation and causation backwards. A rookie mistake.


It is more of a question than an answer.

Also gun rights are written into the Constitution, it's not a "Culture War". It's plain written language.


Strong regulation is written in there, too. It's plain written language.


"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


You are right Militias "well regulated" "right of the people to keep and bear arms" Shall not be infringed.

Government is regulated not to infringe on the right of people to bear arms. It could not be more clear.

We already have these restrictions and they already don't work. Straw purchase is already illegal and it already doesn't deter or prevent crime. So it's not reasonable, even as a compromise.


No we don't. The restrictions are nominal at best and the fact that those opposed to Obama's baby step moves often invoke national gun databases as a next step they fear is telling. Making something illegal, like straw purchases, is pointless if there aren't means to detect such illegal behavior. You have to bring your car in for a smog inspection every few years. No reason why you shouldn't bring your guns in every year or two, either.
{/quote]

You mean like: "If you like your guns you can keep your guns"
As we discovered in the other thread, gun control doesn't work, even in Europe. So instead we should look at what causes murder in these Democrat districts.


Gun control works fabulously well in Europe. Europe is a vastly safer place than the US. One of your favorite talking points used to be that outside of high-crime urban outliers, US crime levels were "comparable" to Western Europe's. You are more likely to be murdered in the US than in Europe. East Asia, where gun ownership is virtually unheard of, is on an even higher plane of safety, one that Americans and Western Europeans alike cannot even fathom until they go live there.



Ah no... Paris had more people murdered in mass shootings this year alone than the US had since Obama took office.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Typhoon » Sat Jan 16, 2016 6:38 pm

Image
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Doc » Sat Jan 16, 2016 7:35 pm

Typhoon wrote:Image


Homicide-rates-across-all-countries.jpeg
Homicide-rates-across-all-countries.jpeg (651.71 KiB) Viewed 278 times


[Mod: please post using 1/ hosting site and scaled so that the entire image may be viewed or 2/ the attachment system for very large images]
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Typhoon » Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:09 pm

Mr. Perfect wrote:Image


Image

[Correlation: -0.93]

Image

[Correlation: 0.97]
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Typhoon » Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:22 pm

Well, I was only going to compare the US to developed countries, but as you insist on comparing the US to Uganda, then so be it.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby kmich » Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:57 pm

Image


Image
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Zack Morris » Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:42 am

Typhoon wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:Image


Image

[Correlation: -0.93]

Image

[Correlation: 0.97]



The drop in US crime rates is these days largely attributed to an increase in incarceration (although the precise drivers of crime are not fully understood). The policies that led to this have their roots going back earlier than the plot, so it seems quite reasonable that crime rates would be a lagging indicator of this (you first have to take criminals off the street in order for the crime rate to subsequently drop).

We'd have to see this plot extended further back in time but it's not hard to propose a couple of hypotheses for how gun ownership could have been affected by crime rates: 1) as crime approached a peak, skittish people took interest in guns for self defense, and 2) more focus on gun control in response to high crime rates provoked a backlash among the NRA and ammosexuals. Indeed, the culture war over guns has only increased.

But what I find most hilarious about this plot is that it completely contradicts Mr. Perfect's position that gun control leads to higher crime. As Mr. Perfect himself is quick to point out, urban areas responsible for the vast majority of these crime statistics restrict legal gun ownership. The vast majority of legally-purchased weapons these statistics track exist outside of the high-crime areas where crime has been falling. Mr. Perfect is unwittingly arguing that the increase in guns outside of cities is reducing crime inside cities, which is patent nonsense.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Zack Morris » Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:44 am

Typhoon wrote:Well, I was only going to compare the US to developed countries, but as you insist on comparing the US to Uganda, then so be it.


That's the 21st century American spirit: AT LEAST WE'RE NOT UGANDA (YET)!!!

Whatever happened to being #1?
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:56 am

ImageImageImageImage

Etc.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:58 am

Zack Morris wrote:That's the 21st century American spirit: AT LEAST WE'RE NOT UGANDA (YET)!!!

Whatever happened to being #1?

Democrats happened to being #1.

But in terms of low murder rates in the US, almost all of those states have no gun laws, at all, and are on par with the white countries you guys like so much.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:12 am

Zack Morris wrote:It doesn't. You've got correlation and causation backwards. A rookie mistake.

As always you have the market cornered on rookie mistakes. You guys are claiming a correlation between guns and crime/murder (the foundational priniciple of gun control), and my charts of course turn your argument into particles.

As gun freedoms and ownership have risen crime has dropped. Your argument is as false as the flat earth.
Strong regulation is written in there, too. It's plain written language.

The militia was instructed to be regulated, but the militia is a non government entity so the regulation (walking in straight lines and having a chain of command, etc) would have to be self regulation.

The guns were to be kept and borne by the citizens without infringement, which means no regulation. No background checks, no magazine bans, no feature bans, no waiting lists. Without infringement.

Anybody reading the language in it's simplicity will know that automatically. It's so simple. One wonders how you could have reached High School and have managed to never read the 2nd amendment, or any commentary from the Founders on it.

No we don't.

Yes we do. Straw purchases are already illegal.

The restrictions are nominal at best and the fact that those opposed to Obama's baby step moves often invoke national gun databases as a next step they fear is telling.

It tells nothing. We already have registration, background checks, we have already every form of gun control there is in various states, cities, counties and Federal and they don't deter any crime.

Making something illegal, like straw purchases, is pointless if there aren't means to detect such illegal behavior.

That's your problem. You keep making laws that don't work. We already have all the gun control liberals ask for and the result is those districts have the highest crime and murder problems.
'
Your laws already don't work.

You have to bring your car in for a smog inspection every few years. No reason why you shouldn't bring your guns in every year or two, either.

And the goal posts shift.

And, how would that prevent a single crime.

Gun control works fabulously well in Europe.

No we did a thread on it. Gun control does not work in Europe.

Europe is a vastly safer place than the US. One of your favorite talking points used to be that outside of high-crime urban outliers, US crime levels were "comparable" to Western Europe's.

They are.

You are more likely to be murdered in the US than in Europe.

Yeah we covered that. But only in certain places in the US, where we already have gun control which already doesn't work.

East Asia, where gun ownership is virtually unheard of, is on an even higher plane of safety, one that Americans and Western Europeans alike cannot even fathom until they go live there.

And the goal posts shift.

Bottom line is we already have gun control and it already doesn't work.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:13 am

Typhoon wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:
Typhoon wrote:I did not claim that they are all nuts,

I know a lot of them, and none of them are nuts.


Your NRA colleagues think otherwise:

Typhoon wrote:OC in Texas

The new from Texas ain't quite so good.
Things didn't turn out like they thought they would.

I don't read offsite links. They are usually bogus and don't support the point you are trying to make.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:23 am

Thanks for more patent nonsense Zack Morris.

We already have gun control and it already doesn't work. Our lowest murder rate states have no gun control at all at the state level, and those states have murder rates on par with Europe. The white countries you guys like so much.

Conversely, we have many states, counties and cities with European style gun control, equal or worse in many cases, and they have murder rates often 10 times higher than the white countries.

And thank you for wildly misinterpreting those charts. It makes for so many more months of merriment as I drive the chainsaw deeper into the forehead, but for now we'll say that crime has dropped everywhere while gun ownership and freedoms have increased everywhere for 30 years.

Except the gun control districts have 4-10 times higher murder rates, still, than the white countries you guys like so much, using the same laws.

Why is that I wonder.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:36 am

Zack Morris wrote: (although the precise drivers of crime are not fully understood)

Yeah. On that, how come you then propose gun control that we already have as a "Solution" when you can't even divine the problem.

Just so you know, the precise drivers of crime are immorality and evil.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Parodite » Sun Jan 17, 2016 10:44 am

When the 2nd amendment causes controversy where people interprete differently why not change it? 3rd amendement...4th... Every constitution can be changed. Thank Gawd they are man-made and not holybooks.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:02 am

Great question. The answer is the liberals can't get it changed. Americans love the 2nd amendment and we'll keep it forever.

There is no controversy regarding the 2A and what it means. If you google "Founders Second Amendment" then read it there is no possible misunderstanding.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Parodite » Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:17 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:Great question. The answer is the liberals can't get it changed. Americans love the 2nd amendment and we'll keep it forever.

There is no controversy regarding the 2A and what it means. If you google "Founders Second Amendment" then read it there is no possible misunderstanding.


Maybe for now.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:21 am

Support for gun rights has been increasing for 30 years, and accelerated once the media started sensationalizing individual episodes.

After Sandy Hook Democrats said they would win on gun control. They went on to lose in 2014 in historic fashion.

Current polls show that 3% of the public think gun control is an important issue worth voting on.

Your liberal friends created an alternate reality for you and you swallowed it gullibly. Gun control as they are selling it will never, ever happen. Ever.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:26 am

these are the same things over and over again.

Mr. P, what is your source for that 3% rate?
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:36 am

Yes. The Democrats have lost this debate over and over again because they don't show any evidence of cognating even the most basic data relating to the issue, and trot out the same easy targets over and over again.

It's in my interest to keep this going, the more Democrats talk about guns the more Republicans get elected. You can even tell them this to their face and it doesn't stop them. Moths to the flames.

I can't find the most recent one, it flashed on the news the other day. The poll is worded differently depending on who does it, but it is one of only 4 things to pay attention to in politics. Generic ballot, exit poll issue rankings, election results and then current issue rankings. Nothing else really matters.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/185504/gover ... blems.aspx

This is what matters most to people. As you can see guns aren't even on the list. People don't vote on guns, except in rare local elections. As a result if Democrats run on guns they will lose.

The other issue rankings that matter is if you prefer a Dem or Repub on any issue. Eg, in 2014 Republican had record preference over obama/Democrats on the issues people vote on, resulting in one of the largest wins in American history for the GOP.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:55 am

The battle isn't with your Republican Party.

Most of it is signalling to other Democratic members to create a situation where pro-gun Democrats are either forced to shut up about it or leave the party.

Because, as you point out, 'issue' voters are very hard to organize into a political force, but getting 'partyers' to support or associate with certain issues is much easier.

The goal is to create a situation where the party with a D is totally anti-gun and the party with a R is pro-gun, with the payoff being an inflation of 'supporter' number, regardless of passion for the issue.

When that happens, and gun ownership actually a polarizing, political issue (and not a media/sensation issue) I don't know what pro-gun advocates will do.
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Re: Guns in the USA | Shooting the news

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:02 pm

We don't have to do anything. The issue is already settled. Gun ownership is never going to be polarizing, it will always be popular.
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