The prophesied demise of the Democrat Party

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Enki
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Re: The end of the Democrat Party

Post by Enki »

Simple Minded

Two flaws

1) It is impossible to accurately budget for something speculative. Even businesses with well understood business models have budget overruns when they are starting up.

2) The American voter is simply incapable of systems thinking. This is why the daft metaphor of comparing the US Government debt to household debt won't die.

Go out and ask your friends what fractional reserve banking is. Let us know what percentage know.
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Re: The end of the Democrat Party

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Enki wrote:Mr. Perfect is spot on about triangulation.
I'll never forget Cincinnatus, one day we were discussing impeaching obama for the NSA spy program, his response was you can't impeach obama today because other Presidents will will commit crimes and get away with it in the future, so it wouldnt be fair to obama in the present.

:shock:

I pointed out the lunacy of his position and he never posted again. If you look up his account it is literally the last posts he made. The mental gymnastics of the triangulator.

Triangulation is morally reprehensible because it equally blames the perp and the victim (both sides do it, a pox on both houses) and it's intellectually lazy because you have to investigate claims and decide who is right and wrong and allow for complexity. Also triangulators like to make false claims to a false high ground.

Luckily they don't get into power very often.
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Re: The end of the Democrat Party

Post by Simple Minded »

Enki wrote:Simple Minded

Two flaws

1) It is impossible to accurately budget for something speculative. Even businesses with well understood business models have budget overruns when they are starting up.

2) The American voter is simply incapable of systems thinking. This is why the daft metaphor of comparing the US Government debt to household debt won't die.

Go out and ask your friends what fractional reserve banking is. Let us know what percentage know.
Probably a better justification for not explaining calculus to your three year old son or your dog, but I do see your point.

True, but a business in a free market has a Darwinistic control of going bankrupt for those business leaders who confuse reality with ideology.

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits."

I do agree that appeal to the Lowest Common Denominator does win elections. But the failure to present a coherent plan logically, should not be confused with the idea that the person who fails to present the plan, actually knows what they are doing, and that they are smarter than the observer. If so, they could take a chance and actually present a plan.......

"I have a dream....."
"Shut up!" he explained.

Mr. Perfect's argument that "democrats are rapists and republicans are rape victims," or Zack's argument of "republicans are rapists, and democrats are rape victims" both seem equally valid to me. My failure to recognize one of them as intellectually & morally superior to the other, somehow gets taken as an personal insult. Me no understand.

Fascinating that the idea that "all blacks think alike is racist," "that all women think alike is sexist," "all Muslims think alike is islamophobic," but that democrats and republicans are two separate, static, monolithic herds is considered intellectually superior.

Damn my inferior mentality. I've been intellectually raped by smart people! ;)

I remember when my intellectual & moral inferiority would cause people to promise to help me, in an attempt to gain my vote, rather than the current state where I am deemed so deplorable or morally repugnant that they don't want me to vote for their team. Always fascinating when both the self-styled right wing Christians and left wing altruists decide you are too much of a sub-human to be helped. If I was a democrat, I'd blame Darwin, if I was a republican, I'd blame God.

but hey, discussions where people agree aren't any fun at all! "Disagreeing with someone on politics or religion is interpreted as saying their wife is ugly and their children are stupid." :D
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Re: The end of the Democrat Party

Post by Doc »

dailycaller.com/2017/03/09/suspect-in-house-it-security-probe-also-had-access-to-dnc-emails
Suspect In House IT Security Probe Also Had Access To DNC Emails
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Luke Rosiak
Which bring us to the point:

Image
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Enki
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Re: The end of the Democrat Party

Post by Enki »

Mr. Perfect wrote:
Enki wrote:Mr. Perfect is spot on about triangulation.
I'll never forget Cincinnatus, one day we were discussing impeaching obama for the NSA spy program, his response was you can't impeach obama today because other Presidents will will commit crimes and get away with it in the future, so it wouldnt be fair to obama in the present.

:shock:

I pointed out the lunacy of his position and he never posted again. If you look up his account it is literally the last posts he made. The mental gymnastics of the triangulator.

Triangulation is morally reprehensible because it equally blames the perp and the victim (both sides do it, a pox on both houses) and it's intellectually lazy because you have to investigate claims and decide who is right and wrong and allow for complexity. Also triangulators like to make false claims to a false high ground.

Luckily they don't get into power very often.
Yes, in America we are seeing the death of principle because no on takes a principled stand due to the constant fear of pointing out hypocrisy and showcasing your own hypocrisy in the process.

I have thought about this in terms of how easy it was to think because I did something that I regret I should be more lenient and less judgmental against people doing things that are regrettable. And it really easy to see it that way.

It's much harder to point out hypocrisy and then self-examine when it reflects back upon oneself.

However, to me the election of Trump is the ultimate failure of the Conservative movement. The Conservative movement gave up all of its ethical principles to elect a man who was the opposite of everything they held dear. A man who has all of the flaws of Bill Clinton and then some.

So in the end we're all triangulators who have come to acquiesce to power, either we compromise our most cherished values to obtain power, or we throw up our hands apathetically and say, "power is always corrupt, so I am not going to support either side.", though by siding with corruption you end up allowing corruption to take root.

I didn't vote for Hillary or Ttump and caught a lot of lavender from all sides for it, because to both sides the other side was Satan incarnate. I think both of them are supremely awful. But that doesn't mean that I believe that we can equivocate and say that it's all equal all the time.

I would prefer a principled Conservative at the end of the day. Hell, I would prefer Pence to Trump. He's a much better man. But given the opportunity to pick Bernie over Pence, I think my leanings on that one are pretty obvious.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Enki
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Re: The end of the Democrat Party

Post by Enki »

Doc wrote:dailycaller.com/2017/03/09/suspect-in-house-it-security-probe-also-had-access-to-dnc-emails
Suspect In House IT Security Probe Also Had Access To DNC Emails
Photo of Luke Rosiak
Luke Rosiak
Which bring us to the point:

Image
Al Qaeda? Because her IT guy is Muslim? I don't get it. What does Al Qaeda have to do with it?
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
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Enki
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Re: The end of the Democrat Party

Post by Enki »

Simple Minded wrote:
Enki wrote:Simple Minded

Two flaws

1) It is impossible to accurately budget for something speculative. Even businesses with well understood business models have budget overruns when they are starting up.

2) The American voter is simply incapable of systems thinking. This is why the daft metaphor of comparing the US Government debt to household debt won't die.

Go out and ask your friends what fractional reserve banking is. Let us know what percentage know.
Probably a better justification for not explaining calculus to your three year old son or your dog, but I do see your point.

True, but a business in a free market has a Darwinistic control of going bankrupt for those business leaders who confuse reality with ideology.

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits."

I do agree that appeal to the Lowest Common Denominator does win elections. But the failure to present a coherent plan logically, should not be confused with the idea that the person who fails to present the plan, actually knows what they are doing, and that they are smarter than the observer. If so, they could take a chance and actually present a plan.......

"I have a dream....."
"Shut up!" he explained.

Mr. Perfect's argument that "democrats are rapists and republicans are rape victims," or Zack's argument of "republicans are rapists, and democrats are rape victims" both seem equally valid to me. My failure to recognize one of them as intellectually & morally superior to the other, somehow gets taken as an personal insult. Me no understand.

Fascinating that the idea that "all blacks think alike is racist," "that all women think alike is sexist," "all Muslims think alike is islamophobic," but that democrats and republicans are two separate, static, monolithic herds is considered intellectually superior.

Damn my inferior mentality. I've been intellectually raped by smart people! ;)

I remember when my intellectual & moral inferiority would cause people to promise to help me, in an attempt to gain my vote, rather than the current state where I am deemed so deplorable or morally repugnant that they don't want me to vote for their team. Always fascinating when both the self-styled right wing Christians and left wing altruists decide you are too much of a sub-human to be helped. If I was a democrat, I'd blame Darwin, if I was a republican, I'd blame God.

but hey, discussions where people agree aren't any fun at all! "Disagreeing with someone on politics or religion is interpreted as saying their wife is ugly and their children are stupid." :D
I think that both Republicans and Democrats have an ethical basis that they have abandoned in order to hold up Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton as the best that each party has to offer. That isn't the same as one being the rapist and the other being a rape victim. It's much more Hatfields and McCoys at that level, that both sides in their constant retaliation have plenty of dirt on the other. And of course the rhetorical flourish that we love to indulge. "The Democrats are the party of Jim Crow! No, don't you know the Southern Strategy won the South for the Republican Party? Now Republicans own Jim Crow and Slavery!", meanwhile the people who committed those sins are long dead, and neither their genetic nor ideological descendants should be required to own it unless they are still trying to implement that ideology today.

But the way you have always presented it, is that there is some moral purity in equivocation. As Mr. Perfect rightly points out, your, "A Plague on both their houses.", rhetoric allows you to never take a stand.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Re: The end of the Democrat Party

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Enki wrote: However, to me the election of Trump is the ultimate failure of the Conservative movement. The Conservative movement gave up all of its ethical principles to elect a man who was the opposite of everything they held dear. A man who has all of the flaws of Bill Clinton and then some.
I think you missed the story on Trump. Briefly, we enthusiastically got behind him because he is a ball breaker. Principled conservatives seem to have a principle of caving at the first sign being called a name by the Democrat/MSM complex. It just gets Trump riled up.

As it is, Trump has delivered more conservatism already than any conservative since Reagan. The modern voting GOP is voting for results now.
Last edited by Mr. Perfect on Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The end of the Democrat Party

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Simple Minded wrote: Mr. Perfect's argument that "democrats are rapists and republicans are rape victims," or Zack's argument of "republicans are rapists, and democrats are rape victims" both seem equally valid to me.
Except nobody said that.
My failure to recognize one of them as intellectually & morally superior to the other, somehow gets taken as an personal insult. Me no understand.
I'm not insulted by you. You are just one of a number of people between me and my freedom.
Fascinating that the idea that "all blacks think alike is racist," "that all women think alike is sexist," "all Muslims think alike is islamophobic," but that democrats and republicans are two separate, static, monolithic herds is considered intellectually superior.
Lol I see what you did there you little binoid you. Somewhere between "All muslims think alike" and "everyone is totally different and unique" is a huge middle ground, like "maybe Muslims(fill in the blank) have some serious things in common". And boy do they.
Damn my inferior mentality. I've been intellectually raped by smart people! ;)

I remember when my intellectual & moral inferiority would cause people to promise to help me, in an attempt to gain my vote, rather than the current state where I am deemed so deplorable or morally repugnant that they don't want me to vote for their team.
Lol you must be sweating up a storm building all those strawmen. If you are in the way of my goal what exactly am I supposed to do.
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Re: The end of the Democrat Party

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Enki wrote:
Al Qaeda? Because her IT guy is Muslim? I don't get it. What does Al Qaeda have to do with it?
I think he's pointing out how thin and conspiratorial the Russia thing is.
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Re: The end of the Democrat Party

Post by Simple Minded »

Enki wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:
I think that both Republicans and Democrats have an ethical basis that they have abandoned in order to hold up Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton as the best that each party has to offer. That isn't the same as one being the rapist and the other being a rape victim. It's much more Hatfields and McCoys at that level, that both sides in their constant retaliation have plenty of dirt on the other. And of course the rhetorical flourish that we love to indulge. "The Democrats are the party of Jim Crow! No, don't you know the Southern Strategy won the South for the Republican Party? Now Republicans own Jim Crow and Slavery!", meanwhile the people who committed those sins are long dead, and neither their genetic nor ideological descendants should be required to own it unless they are still trying to implement that ideology today.

But the way you have always presented it, is that there is some moral purity in equivocation. As Mr. Perfect rightly points out, your, "A Plague on both their houses.", rhetoric allows you to never take a stand.
You did note correctly that it was Mr. P who said "A Plague on both their houses." and not I. That is the fascinating aspect (IMSMO) of how people read what they wish, rather than what is printed in front of them, especially in light of your previous post.

When you voted for neither Hilary nor Trump, did the people who gave you grief assume your actions were based on your presumption of your moral superiority over them? Did you not vote for either because of your desire to prove moral superiority? Did you not know that they would interpret your actions as such? Did you apologize for your insensitivity? Did your peers ostracize you for not being a true Democrat or a good Democrat? Or did the lunch special just not appeal to you that day?

Asked which party is the better party, by those who are obsessed with binoid group identity, and who persistently see one party as the embodiment of good, and the other as the embodiment of evil, I am flabbergasted by their assertion that both parties are not very similar in ideology and tactics. Very similar behavior exists in both when in the majority, or when attempting to regain the majority.

Not that I don’t appreciate the zeal of a rabid republican or democrat trying to save my political soul, but when the best sales pitch they can come up with is “Vote with us, and we will keep the other party from sodomizing you!” It just does not seem valid a valid claim, similar as paying protection money to both the Gambini twins to keep the other one from kneecapping you. But it is an interesting point in the cycle, when both parties say vote for us or we will socially label you as deplorable, morally repugnant, etc.

As stated previously, thinking democrats or republicans are separate monolithic entities, and that they don’t have a lot in common, seems as ignorant as saying the blacks and whites are separate monolithic entities, and that they don’t have a lot in common. But maybe in some parts of the US, there is a big difference between dems and repubs. I live in Hicksville.

Pick the church you want to join, Catholic or Protestant. If you join neither, is it because you view yourself as superior to all the parishioners of both? Only a Catholic or a Protestant extremist thinks that one is all-good and the other is all-bad to be a reasonable assertion.

That said, all my previous opinions were based on my ignorance of my own group identity. Now that I know my group identity is that of a Morally Repugnant Deplorable (MRD), and confirmed by the brightest light in each of the two parties, the first party that funds an advocacy group to stop the oppression of MRD’s has my voting loyalty.

After all, we are an oppressed minority, and any who say otherwise are MRD-o-phobes!

Whew, problem solved! I'm no longer the oppressor, but the oppressee!

Thankfully, no one gets to determine their own group identity, only the observer can do that. No wonder self-esteem is in such short supply these days! How to control their filters....
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Re: The end of the Democrat Party

Post by Mr. Perfect »

I think someone got triggered.
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Re: The end of the Democrat Party

Post by Enki »

No one cares about your political soul. It is just that for years now I have been watching you turn every thread into a meditation on relativism.

Mr. Perfect is my moral enemy and in many ways you're right I can relate more to him. Not that I cannot relate to you, merely that I see it as a cliche at this point to hover above the fray looking down on people who actually care.

Pointing out that the two halves of the American political spectrum are similar in some ways is not so interesting. It is about as meaningful as saying that a 747 and a Catamaran are similar because they are both vehicles. Yes, they are both political parties in America and they deal with the same policy problems because they are America's policy problems.

But beyond that... What?
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Re: The end of the Democrat Party

Post by Doc »

Why the Democrats are failing The Establishment is failing Brexit happened and the EU is breaking up in general

It is the leftwing religion of the god "Greater Good" that is breaking down Which Brexit and the PIGS economic crisis people are questioning what in the hell the greater good actually is

jNhony_Xl4U
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Enki
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Re: The end of the Democrat Party

Post by Enki »

Doc

That's good, glad we don't have be countrymen anymore. There being no greater good.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Re: The end of the Democrat Party

Post by noddy »

triangulating is good skill if your a real human trying to stablise borderline tourettes family members in an effort to maintain a tolerable living conditions.

not everyones worldview is 100% focused on federal politics.
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Re: The end of the Democrat Party

Post by Enki »

Mr. Perfect

I hope your deal with the devil works out in your favor.
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Re: The end of the Democrat Party

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Thanks, every day has been like Christmas. It's like almost all my dreams coming true.
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Re: The end of the Democrat Party

Post by Typhoon »

Enki wrote:
Doc wrote:dailycaller.com/2017/03/09/suspect-in-house-it-security-probe-also-had-access-to-dnc-emails
Suspect In House IT Security Probe Also Had Access To DNC Emails
Photo of Luke Rosiak
Luke Rosiak
Which bring us to the point:

Image
Al Qaeda? Because her IT guy is Muslim? I don't get it. What does Al Qaeda have to do with it?
Bupkes. Snopes | Did The Federal Bureau of Investigation Seize Smashed Hard Drives From Rep. Wasserman-Schultz's Home?
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
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Re: The end of the Democrat Party

Post by Mr. Perfect »

I don't think you guys were following doc. Also Snopes has gone rather left leaning.
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Re: The end of the Democrat Party

Post by Simple Minded »

Enki wrote:No one cares about your political soul. It is just that for years now I have been watching you turn every thread into a meditation on relativism.

Mr. Perfect is my moral enemy and in many ways you're right I can relate more to him. Not that I cannot relate to you, merely that I see it as a cliche at this point to hover above the fray looking down on people who actually care.

Pointing out that the two halves of the American political spectrum are similar in some ways is not so interesting. It is about as meaningful as saying that a 747 and a Catamaran are similar because they are both vehicles. Yes, they are both political parties in America and they deal with the same policy problems because they are America's policy problems.

But beyond that... What?
That's that part that fascinates me Tinker, the insistence that anyone who does not prefer my church over their church is "wrong," and anyone who sees similarities in the two churches is "looking down on people who actually care." Was that your intent when you did not vote for either Trump or Hilary? And did your friends perceive that as your intent? You avoided dealing with all of those questions. Please explain your thought process on election day.

I have even seen you fly the banner of "Anyone who does not agree with Obama is a racist " and then morph into "Obama has become corrupted by the system and has betrayed us." (paraphrased)

All that said, the determination of beauty, offense, and the willingness to allay with one's moral enemy to define good guys, bad guys, and write-off MRD's is always the prerogative of the receiver not the transmitter.

Trump winning the repub primary was a yuge FU to the republican party establishment. The same can be said for Obama and the dems in 2008. The democrats decision to rig their 2016 primary to ensure Hilary's nomination, to prevent what they saw happening on the republican side (and what happened in 2008) probably cost them the general election in 2016.

Add in how half the repubs view Trump as an outsider who must be destroyed, even if it means their "moral enemy" gains power, and it seems like two churches threatening to put their members in the dunking chair if they dare to break ranks. Two Catholic churches defending how pedophile priests are treating their parishioners.

Both Bernie and Trump as candidates were the closest thing to a third party candidate becoming POTUS since Ross Perot. The dems aborted Bernie in the primary, the repubs are doing the same to Trump right now.

Me against my brother. My and my brother against my cousin. Repubs and dems against anyone who is not mindlessly allied with either party (MRD's). One size fits all bad, two sizes fits all optimum. No need for evolution or change here, thank you. No one needs to drink anything other than Coca Cola or Pepsi Cola. The insistence of two and only two group herd identities in such a diverse nation is bizarre IMSMO. Might as well eliminate the 50 states and have one red one and one blue one.

Always Interests me to see how information is interpreted, regardless of what it is intended to convey. But that is what keeps it all from becoming boring. How else do we get to see inside the mind of another?
Last edited by Simple Minded on Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The end of the Democrat Party

Post by Simple Minded »

Enki wrote:There is pretty much no one worth voting for in either party anymore.

Republicans actually elected someone who built his career on wage theft on the premise that he was for the common man.

And Democrats are doubling down on McCarthyism.

Ahh well...if I can just stop thinking about politics, I'll free up so much brain space.
tinker,

Like I told my niece who was living in NYC when she got frustrated "Why don't you stop working on arranging $20,000 a plate fundraisers, and actually spend some time in a food kitchen or a homeless shelter helping people face to face? You just might learn something and also get a sense of satisfaction out of your efforts!"

She responded with "You triangulating MRD's just don't get it.... do you?" ;)

everyone wants to change the world, no one wants to take out the garbage.......
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Re: The end of the Democrat Party

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Typhoon wrote:
Enki wrote:
Doc wrote:dailycaller.com/2017/03/09/suspect-in-house-it-security-probe-also-had-access-to-dnc-emails
Suspect In House IT Security Probe Also Had Access To DNC Emails
Photo of Luke Rosiak
Luke Rosiak
Which bring us to the point:

[Unsupported Image Claim]
Al Qaeda? Because her IT guy is Muslim? I don't get it. What does Al Qaeda have to do with it?
Bupkes. Snopes | Did The Federal Bureau of Investigation Seize Smashed Hard Drives From Rep. Wasserman-Schultz's Home?
Snopes itself has been debunked. A failed attempt to form a government sponsored ministry of truth run by a con man and sex addict. Now bankrupt and begging on GoFundMe as ministry of truth functions are moving to Google and Facebook directly.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

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Re: The end of the Democrat Party

Post by Typhoon »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Enki wrote:
Doc wrote:dailycaller.com/2017/03/09/suspect-in-house-it-security-probe-also-had-access-to-dnc-emails
Suspect In House IT Security Probe Also Had Access To DNC Emails
Photo of Luke Rosiak
Luke Rosiak
Which bring us to the point:

[Unsupported Image Claim]
Al Qaeda? Because her IT guy is Muslim? I don't get it. What does Al Qaeda have to do with it?
Bupkes. Snopes | Did The Federal Bureau of Investigation Seize Smashed Hard Drives From Rep. Wasserman-Schultz's Home?
Snopes itself has been debunked. A failed attempt to form a government sponsored ministry of truth run by a con man and sex addict. Now bankrupt and begging on GoFundMe as ministry of truth functions are moving to Google and Facebook directly.
Perhaps. Perhaps not.

However, more corroborating evidence is required than a single article at "FreedomDaily",
which reads like the World Weekly News for conspiracy obsessed conservatives,
written by someone who calls herself "Liberty Belle".
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
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Nonc Hilaire
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Re: The end of the Democrat Party

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Typhoon wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Enki wrote:
Doc wrote:dailycaller.com/2017/03/09/suspect-in-house-it-security-probe-also-had-access-to-dnc-emails
Suspect In House IT Security Probe Also Had Access To DNC Emails
Photo of Luke Rosiak
Luke Rosiak
Which bring us to the point:

[Looney Image Claim]
Al Qaeda? Because her IT guy is Muslim? I don't get it. What does Al Qaeda have to do with it?
Bupkes. Snopes | Did The Federal Bureau of Investigation Seize Smashed Hard Drives From Rep. Wasserman-Schultz's Home?
Snopes itself has been debunked. A failed attempt to form a government sponsored ministry of truth run by a con man and sex addict. Now bankrupt and begging on GoFundMe as ministry of truth functions are moving to Google and Facebook directly.
Perhaps. Perhaps not.

However, more corroborating evidence is required than a single article at "FreedomDaily",
which reads like the World Weekly News for conspiracy obsessed conservatives,
written by someone who calls herself "Liberty Belle".
Agreed. Snopes is the inverse of World Weekly News. They have someone google about until they find a few points which support the position of government propaganda. You don't find Snopes interviewing people, reading books, or even using public databases.

Snopes is of far lower quality than InfoWars. Alex Jones is a clown, but he does interview real people and those interviews are often primary or secondary sources.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

Teresa of Ávila
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