Trump loses!

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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: Trump loses!

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:D

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Typhoon
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Re: Trump loses!

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NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:It's anecdotes but the funniest horror stories come from "white guy dealing with Chinese hospitals" where the doctors ignore you totally or stop treating you dead in your tracks when you run out of money to feed them--sort of like a vending machine. :D

I read one where this one guy brought his very sick roommate to a Shanghai hospital after he collapsed and they ended up waiting hours before anyone even acknowledged he existed. Then, as the roommate was finally going to get some help, in comes this emergency patient who was hit by a car and in really bad shape. The hospital staff ran up to the guy to ask him to translate for the patient as they were both general white guys. Luckily, the guy was Swedish so he spoke good-er English than our protagonist; and unluckily for our protagonist, the hospital forced him to totally abandon his friend and hop into a waiting ambulance to rush the guy to another hospital.

When they get there, they make him fill out the paperwork and they start billing him upfront for everything...the ambulance, tests and so on....then the doctor meets with him and says something like, "I'm afraid if we don't operate now, he will not make it through the night- it'll be X amount" So, the guy reaches his wallet, and notices he's run dry and he tells the doctor he can't cover the cost at that moment and the doctor doesn't even look up and says, "I'm sure he'll be fine." He hands him his release papers and promptly leaves the room. The staff comes in right away to pressure them to leave.

So he does the only thing he can do, takes this dying stranger back to his apartment and hopes he can make it through the night. Luckily he did, but the guy never got reimbursed for any of it.

There is something refreshing about being honestly screwed as opposed to being made to jump through hoops just to get screwed. :D
As China and its healthcare system are still rapidly evolving from a very low starting point, not the best example to use.
Although it is one example of close-to-free-market healthcare.
As the foreigners experienced, competition between for-profit hospitals has been brutal.

For example, on a certain Caribbean island, being woken up by an all-natural alarm clock, a rooster perched on the end of the bed, gives one remarkable motivation to recover quickly.

Do you have experience with the healthcare systems of Japan, France, Singapore, or Canada?

I'll reply to your read anecdote with a personal one.
A US colleague was visiting Japan and start to feel quite unwell. Recommended a English speaking walk-in clinic to him.
He was concerned about the cost and wait.
The unrushed consultation cost him ¥3000, about US $30. Was seen within 10 minutes. Under US $50 including prescription.

His summary of the experience, "Can you now recommend a shrink? I think I am experiencing shock."
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
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Typhoon
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Re: Trump loses!

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Nonc Hilaire wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:No.
I don't like it anymore than you do, but that's what he's going to go for. He's always been (and always will be) a single-payer man.
Single payer will never happen.
It's coming and you voted for it :D
No it's not. obamacare will be repealed.
Obamacare will blow out and everybody will go on Medicaid. I think this was the original plan.

Remember people may not own assets above $2k to receive Medicaid. There is a three year lookback at any disposal of assets: sale of car, house, cash withdrawals etc. IMHO, moving the forced collapse of estates into government Medicaid pools was a planned objective and why the cost of care issue remains unmentioned.
I don't know if it is a planned objective, but it certainly is a consequence. This is consistent with a conversation I had with a senior exec in a capital-intensive part of the US healthcare industry. This was back when Obamacare was being debated and I asked him to explain it to me. He didn't think Obamacare was a solution, more of a bandage with unintended consequences. He comment was along the lines of "I don't think Obamacare is the solution, but we do need to change as our current healthcare system is nuts, it drives families into bankruptcy".
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: Trump loses!

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Simple Minded

Re: Trump loses!

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Typhoon wrote:
I don't know if it is a planned objective, but it certainly is a consequence. This is consistent with a conversation I had with a senior exec in a capital-intensive part of the US healthcare industry. This was back when Obamacare was being debated and I asked him to explain it to me. He didn't think Obamacare was a solution, more of a bandage with unintended consequences. He comment was along the lines of "I don't think Obamacare is the solution, but we do need to change as our current healthcare system is nuts, it drives families into bankruptcy".
IIRC, our very own Tinker, who was a yuge Obama fan, and yuge fan of single payer, stated that thru his plugged in political contacts, he knew Obamacare was designed to bankrupt the insurance companies and force single payer as the only option. Did he know, or was he bullshitting?

Healthcare seems yugely subjective, personal, and anecdotal. Determining the "best" system is much the same as determining the "best" wife. Only the receiver can be the final arbitrator. "Me" vs. "we" yet again. If only society could get past all the selfish individuals who comprise society..... :?

My Brit, Canadian, and European friends like the American system better than their own by about 2:1. I suspect their views may be very short term views, and that they are really saying they like not paying for their potential future healthcare needs, or someone else's current healthcare needs, when they buy consumer items today. Or they have become infected with the American disease. If only they/we had better healthcare......

Which, IMSMO, raises the question, where is the honest politician, or single payer healthcare advocate who wants to throw out real numbers for the rational members of the public to consider? IIRC correctly, the healthcare industry is about 15% of GDP, and the government is about 50% efficient in getting taxed dollars to end users.

Free healthcare, how about a 30% healthcare tax on every purchase to pay the bill? Sure, it will be yugely upsetting to the status quo, but, after an adjustment period of a few years......

Perhaps the overlords do not believe rational members of the public exist. "Hell, they elected me! How smart can they be?"

I blame George Carlin.
Simple Minded

Re: Trump loses!

Post by Simple Minded »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
IMG_5241.JPG
HP,

and yet.... you voted for him. When ya gonna wake up bro? Whether it is electing the wrong people, or scarring immigrants into braving frostbite to flee to Canada, yer part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Stay off the internet and don't vote no more. Please, society is begging you! ;)

do it for the children! :D
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Re: Trump loses!

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Nonc Hilaire wrote: Obamacare will blow out and everybody will go on Medicaid.
No.
I think this was the original plan.
No.
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Re: Trump loses!

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Simple Minded wrote: IIRC, our very own Tinker, who was a yuge Obama fan, and yuge fan of single payer, stated that thru his plugged in political contacts, he knew Obamacare was designed to bankrupt the insurance companies and force single payer as the only option.
This is not what will happen.
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Re: Trump loses!

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Typhoon wrote: I don't know if it is a planned objective, but it certainly is a consequence. This is consistent with a conversation I had with a senior exec in a capital-intensive part of the US healthcare industry. This was back when Obamacare was being debated and I asked him to explain it to me. He didn't think Obamacare was a solution, more of a bandage with unintended consequences. He comment was along the lines of "I don't think Obamacare is the solution, but we do need to change as our current healthcare system is nuts, it drives families into bankruptcy".
Government single payer programs are bankrupting nations.
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Re: Trump loses!

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Simple Minded wrote: Free healthcare, how about a 30% healthcare tax on every purchase to pay the bill? Sure, it will be yugely upsetting to the status quo, but, after an adjustment period of a few years......
We could cut the Pentagon's budget in half and remain vastly mightier than any potential adversary. There's your universal system.
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Re: Trump loses!

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Mr. Perfect wrote:
Typhoon wrote: I don't know if it is a planned objective, but it certainly is a consequence. This is consistent with a conversation I had with a senior exec in a capital-intensive part of the US healthcare industry. This was back when Obamacare was being debated and I asked him to explain it to me. He didn't think Obamacare was a solution, more of a bandage with unintended consequences. He comment was along the lines of "I don't think Obamacare is the solution, but we do need to change as our current healthcare system is nuts, it drives families into bankruptcy".
Government single payer programs are bankrupting nations.
Nobody's going bankrupt. Rates are at all time lows.
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Re: Trump loses!

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Just FYI, a lot of lo info news being pumped out there. Repeal did not fail, the replacement did. This was a procedural error by Paul Ryan. Paul Ryan should go, and I think will at the first opportunity.

The problems of obamacare will remain. Almost 30 million people are paying a penalty equal to 1 month's rent, and very few of them will ever buy insurance. Those buying through the government exchanges will continue to face skyrocketing premiums and deductibles as insurers continue to leave the industry. It is still in the death spiral.

Nothing has gone away, but obamacare will be repealed piecemeal over 2-3 years.
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Re: Trump loses!

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Zack Morris wrote:
Simple Minded wrote: Free healthcare, how about a 30% healthcare tax on every purchase to pay the bill? Sure, it will be yugely upsetting to the status quo, but, after an adjustment period of a few years......
We could cut the Pentagon's budget in half and remain vastly mightier than any potential adversary. There's your universal system.
You had 8 years and didn't do it. You had one chance at single payer and blew it because you elected a greenhorn. Hillary would've got it done.
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Re: Trump loses!

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Zack Morris wrote: Nobody's going bankrupt. Rates are at all time lows.
Lol you want to become 30% of government? Be my guest.
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Re: Trump loses!

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Nonc Hilaire wrote: Non-profit status only disallows the distribution of dividends to shareholders and alters taxation. Non-profits are still businesses like any other. The bottom line usually labeled "profit" is renamed "revenue in excess of expenses".
For profit Private insurance usually nets 2-3% profit. There is nothing there.
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Re: Trump loses!

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Heracleum Persicum wrote:
G.O.P. Better Off Politically
with Health Bill Not Passed


America won .. If Trump "America First", than Trump too WON .. America won

Forget about "ObamaCare" and put time and energy into building up America

All fuss about "ObamaCare" is about MONEY, cost .. pay the cost and forget about it .. ObamaCare does not benefit Iranians or Mexicans or North Koreans, it is about "Poor Americans" who have no other venues.
No, obamacare is a net loss for 95% of the country. obamacare reduced the uninsured rates by 3-4%, at a cost to everyone else. It broke all the rules of socialism. Socialism works politically if the people who benefit outnumber the people who bear the cost. With obamacare, few benefit at a cost to everyone else.

The GOP will benefit politically. In 2018 we will have 62 Senators and will be able to repeal the whole thing.

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.
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Re: Trump loses!

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:G.O.P. Better Off Politically
with Health Bill Not Passed


America won .. If Trump "America First", than Trump too WON .. America won

Forget about "ObamaCare" and put time and energy into building up America

All fuss about "ObamaCare" is about MONEY, cost .. pay the cost and forget about it .. ObamaCare does not benefit Iranians or Mexicans or North Koreans, it is about "Poor Americans" who have no other venues. .
.
No, obamacare is a net loss for 95% of the country. obamacare reduced the uninsured rates by 3-4%, at a cost to everyone else. It broke all the rules of socialism. Socialism works politically if the people who benefit outnumber the people who bear the cost. With obamacare, few benefit at a cost to everyone else.

The GOP will benefit politically. In 2018 we will have 62 Senators and will be able to repeal the whole thing.
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Re: Trump loses!

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Simple Minded wrote:.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:
IMG_5241.JPG


HP,

and yet.... you voted for him. When ya gonna wake up bro? Whether it is electing the wrong people, or scarring immigrants into braving frostbite to flee to Canada, yer part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Stay off the internet and don't vote no more. Please, society is begging you! ;)

do it for the children! :D

.


My wife beating me on that too :lol: , each time I say Trump this/that, she hits back you voted for him .. and .. imagine, even day B4 when I said I voting for Donald, Mr. Perfect said Trump will not be elected .. I think I was the only one on this fora who said with certainty he will be elected.

He's going to learn (on the Job) .. hopefully he learns B4 ruining America :lol:

changing the subject :

Seems, he looking for a fight with mad mullahs, mad mullahs could have put a "Trap" for Donald .. he for sure no military brain, first was that Yemen fiasco, now 200 civilian dead by American bombs .. Trump did a lot of sable rattling against mad mullahs, if Trump steps in Mullah's "bear trap", either must put up or close shop and leave .. Russia, China, India, Pakistan, Turkey watching.

Iran denied on Saturday U.S. accusations that its fast-attack boats were "harassing" warships at the mouth of the Gulf, and said Washington would be responsible for any clashes in the key oil shipping route.

U.S. Navy commanders earlier accused Iran of jeopardizing international navigation by "harassing" warships passing through the Strait of Hormuz and said future incidents could result in miscalculation and lead to an armed clash.

They spoke after the U.S. aircraft carrier George H.W. Bush confronted what one of the commanding officers described as two sets of Iranian Navy fast-attack boats that had approached a U.S.-led, five-vessel flotilla as it entered the Strait on Tuesday on a journey from the Indian Ocean into the Gulf.

Argument could be made, this no Mullah's trap, this could be Putin laid Trap.

If things go bad, Trump will leave and take the Sheikhs with him .. that could be what Putin and China want.

Russia and China would be the new "Arbiter" in that space.


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Simple Minded

Re: Trump loses!

Post by Simple Minded »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
If things go bad, Trump will leave and take the Sheikhs with him .. that could be what Putin and China want.

Russia and China would be the new "Arbiter" in that space.
amen. I would support a turn toward isolationism regarding the US meddling in the Middle East.
Simple Minded

Re: Trump loses!

Post by Simple Minded »

Zack Morris wrote:
Simple Minded wrote: Free healthcare, how about a 30% healthcare tax on every purchase to pay the bill? Sure, it will be yugely upsetting to the status quo, but, after an adjustment period of a few years......
We could cut the Pentagon's budget in half and remain vastly mightier than any potential adversary. There's your universal system.
so...... Which, IMSMO, raises the question, where is the honest politician, or single payer healthcare advocate who wants to throw out real numbers for the rational members of the public to consider?

Tough to choose between the nebulous "we" and the payer whose ox gets gored. "Special interests" is every one with a pulse and a nickel in their pocket.

If only the concept of the common good were more common....... how to sell?
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Re: Trump loses!

Post by noddy »

it depends on if you empathise with the old or poor needing the healthcare or the young and debt laden who are paying for it.

one things for certain is that the mobile rich arent involved.
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Re: Trump loses!

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.

Fiery G.O.P. Civil War


President Trump ignites a lot of fights, but his failure to repeal the Affordable Care Act, the biggest defeat in his short time in the White House, was the result of something else: a long-running Republican civil war that humbled a generation of party leaders before he ever came to Washington.

A precedent-flouting president who believes that Washington’s usual rules do not apply to him, Mr. Trump now finds himself shackled by them.

Means, Trump will have difficulty delivering quick results, thanks to his own party

Markets will tank, MP



G.O.P. Members Who Backed Bill Are Left in the Lurch
In running for re-election next year,
some Republican lawmakers may have to defend their support for a politically explosive bill that many backed only reluctantly.




They went to unusual, even dangerous lengths to support President Trump’s unpopular health care bill, facing down protesters at home and begging for special accommodation from House leaders in Washington. John Faso of New York negotiated a side deal for his state in exchange for backing it. Mike Coffman was the lone Colorado lawmaker to endorse the bill, while his Republican neighbors agonized and stalled.

But with the collapse of the legislation on Friday, such Republican representatives now have nothing to show for their trouble. They ventured far out on a political limb, only to watch it disintegrate behind them. And when they run for re-election next year, they may have to defend their support for a politically explosive bill that many Republicans backed only reluctantly, and that never came close to reaching the president’s desk.

The fiasco in Washington is already rippling at home: Back in their districts, there are early signs of backlash against these lawmakers, including from constituents who voted Republican last November.

Many voters’ complaints echo the criticism they leveled against the passage of the Affordable Care Act, commonly known as Obamacare: that it was passed too quickly, with too many back-room deals and too much potential to destabilize the insurance system. Even voters supportive of Mr. Trump said the process had unfolded in a slapdash way, without sufficient attention to explaining the bill to people whom it might affect directly.

makes thing more difficult for Trump, to pass unpopular legislation.


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Typhoon
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Re: Trump loses!

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Mr. Perfect wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote: Non-profit status only disallows the distribution of dividends to shareholders and alters taxation. Non-profits are still businesses like any other. The bottom line usually labeled "profit" is renamed "revenue in excess of expenses".
For profit Private insurance usually nets 2-3% profit. There is nothing there.
So where does the money go?
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Re: Trump loses!

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Azari, don't know how to tell you, but NYT is fake news.

Democrats lost elections in 2010, 2014 almost solely on obamacare, people who voted based on obamacare in 2016 went Trump almost 3 to 1.

Democrat party died for good in 2016, and if one issue killed them it was obamacare. 30 of the 60 Democrat Senators who voted for it are no longer in office.

obamacare will be repealed. It only generates bad headlines from here on out. Almost 30 million people paying penalties, while premiums and deductibles skyrocketed as insurers left market. None of that will change.

The replacement bill failed, not the repeal part. It will be repealed.
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Re: Trump loses!

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Typhoon wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote: Non-profit status only disallows the distribution of dividends to shareholders and alters taxation. Non-profits are still businesses like any other. The bottom line usually labeled "profit" is renamed "revenue in excess of expenses".
For profit Private insurance usually nets 2-3% profit. There is nothing there.
So where does the money go?
To pay medical bills.
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