Healthcare in the USA

[Doc]

Republicans fail to pass a Obamacare replacement and ......

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/08 ... e-fix.html

Dems suddenly scrambling to come up with ObamaCare fix
Brooke Singman

[Mr. Perfect]

Is this going to be an obamacare thread? If so I have some things to say.

obamacare is in the death spiral. The percentage of uninsured barely dropped, meaning the heavy penalties are in place, and premiums are skyrocketing as insurers pull out. It's always been self repealing. There is no fix, the self destruct was built into the foundation.

obamacare is one bad headline from repeal

What was not reported in the fake news MSM is that the GOP is 1 vote short of repeal. At any time one of those guys changes their mind in the next 18 months the sucker is going away. The odds of it happening in the next 18 months? Over 90%

[Heracleum Persicum]

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Is this going to be an obamacare thread? If so I have some things to say.

obamacare is in the death spiral. The percentage of uninsured barely dropped, meaning the heavy penalties are in place, and premiums are skyrocketing as insurers pull out. It's always been self repealing. There is no fix, the self destruct was built into the foundation.

obamacare is one bad headline from repeal

What was not reported in the fake news MSM is that the GOP is 1 vote short of repeal. At any time one of those guys changes their mind in the next 18 months the sucker is going away. The odds of it happening in the next 18 months? Over 90%

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1 ) NO .. this not ObamaCare thread .. this "Single Payer" thread

2 ) ObamaCare will stay until a better one is introduced .. so-long this not the case, ObamaCare stays


FullStop

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[Mr. Perfect]

Obamacare is one vote from repeal. Single payer will never happen.

Full stop.

[Nonc Hilaire]

ACA will fail into single payer. No other possible solution. This was the plan all along.

[Heracleum Persicum]

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ACA will fail into single payer. No other possible solution. This was the plan all along.

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Yes .. GOP will come to conclusion "Single Pay" the best, ONLY, way to go.

There was a very interesting article saying GOP marching in that direction, will find and post.

AFAIK Mr. Perfect not working for insurance lobby or Ambulance chaser lobby, why he so against "Single Pay" beats meee.

Those Americans who are against "Canada Model" are misinformed by stake holders .. They should inform themselves .. easy in every information on one's fingertip.

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[Heracleum Persicum]

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NewsWeek
WHY ARE REPUBLICANS BACKING SINGLE-PAYER HEALTH CARE?

Republicans are about to make Medicare-for-all much more likely
If Republicans strike down Obamacare, the “Medicare for all” movement will become more powerful

WP
Republicans are accidentally paving the way for single-payer health care

NYT
Republicans for Single-Payer Health Care

ChicagoTribune
How Republicans are paving the way for single-payer health care


Within 5 yrs, Single Pay will be reality

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[Nonc Hilaire]

US healthcare was excellent and genuinely non-profit before Nixon/Erlichman allowed the HMO's to come in as for-profit. Their strategy was to take money for premiums and then deny care. The steady decline in care and increase in price is directly linked to that fundamental change.

The US will go single payer because when things collapse they fall to the lowest common denominator, which is ER treatment and public health for communicable disease. Single payer does not mean everybody gets medicaid/medicare. It means everybody gets ER Tx then they are referred to outpatient care on their own dime.

[Heracleum Persicum]

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Living in Vancouver since 1982 .. had many medical issues, quite few major surgeries and more .. know many friends who had cancer and and.

Excellent system and medical system, excellent .. and .. now , newly , there are also private clinics that one can pay if not wanting to waitfor anything elective etc etc.

Americans can not understand how one feels in Canada re medical issue .. medical is a "non issue" for a Canadian citizen, it does not occupy our mind for a second .. our GP decides what next if there is problem .. many I know had cancer and they got best of the best treatment, immediately, highest world quality, free .. in fact, Canadian Cancer agency in Vancouver is among the best in the world.

And

Doctors make very good money in Canada .. a friend, cardiologist, said, specialist make around $ 500K, no need of insurance (no such thing as malpractice .. most complains to medical board is "sexual" stuff ) .. no paper work involved, everything is in central computer .. the computer knows if one has low income and (automatically) in pharmacy prescription cost can be ZERO .. there is no paperwork .. many US doctors moving to Canada.

One interesting point .. my cardiology friend said, if a doctor "opts out" of the insurance, he will have no clients , Canadians do not want to pay, they want it for free .. meaning, opting out for any doctor means going broke.


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[Mr. Perfect]

There will never be single payer in the United States. Obamacare ensured that. The only chance was if Hillary had won in 2008. But now single payer will never happen because of obamacare.

[Mr. Perfect]

And azari all of your links are fake news.

[Nonc Hilaire]

There will never be single payer in the United States. Obamacare ensured that. The only chance was if Hillary had won in 2008. But now single payer will never happen because of obamacare.

We have basic single payer through ETALA/ERISA and USPHS now. ACA collapses into that existing framework without changing a thing.

However, the single payer the socialists have been proposing is not the single payer we are going to get. ER care will be like a third branch of care/caid but anything non-ER (now hospital or outpatient care) will be private pay. When people start dying we will see a waiver system arise to fill the gap.

[Mr. Perfect]

Single payer is government insurance. Thanks to obamacare we will never have government insurance.

[Nonc Hilaire]

Single payer is government insurance. Thanks to obamacare we will never have government insurance.

We will have government direct payments, just like we do now for fire and police. The taxpayer will take the hit. There is no other option.

[Mr. Perfect]

No we won't and we have plenty of options.

[Nonc Hilaire]

No we won't and we have plenty of options.

Elucidate, please. Why not and what are the plentiful options?

[Simple Minded]

Single payer is government insurance. Thanks to obamacare we will never have government insurance.

We will have government direct payments, just like we do now for fire and police. The taxpayer will take the hit. There is no other option.

I think you are right. People love not paying at the time of service or receiving benefits they perceive as "free." But are psychologically devastated by sudden large, unexpected costs, such as an auto accident, a tree falling on your house or car, etc. I think the concept of saving for a rainy day became uncommon, as agriculture as a major source of employment declined.

Bury the costs of health care in staples such as food, energy, housing, clothing, etc. and for a short period (less than 20 years or one generation), people will bitch about the everyday increase in cost of living, but it will eventually become viewed as the norm. Roads are another example. The average person perceives roads as free because there is not a personal bill to pay to allow their use of roads at the time of use or on monthly basis.

Better or worse can be argued until the cows come home. I know many Canadians, and Brits who think the American system of cheaper cost of daily living, but more expensive occasional health care is the better system. As one would expect, they are young. As to be expected, Peter and Paul will always argue opposite positions in the "Robin Hood ideology is best, most fair form of government" argument.

[Simple Minded]

It would be interesting to see the Republicans grow a set, change tactics by announcing:

"We realize we are wrong. the dems have been saying for years that Obamacare is great, and just to be fair, and ensure bi-partisan cooperation, we plain to pass legislation that will eliminate anything other than Obamacare for all federal workers, including the Supreme Court, Congress, the Senate, and POTUS.

Starting October 1st, we, and all of our families will be on Obamacare. It is time for the DC elites to start eating their own cooking."

They could have been proposing this each quarter since 2010.

[Typhoon]

US healthcare was excellent and genuinely non-profit before Nixon/Erlichman allowed the HMO's to come in as for-profit. Their strategy was to take money for premiums and then deny care. The steady decline in care and increase in price is directly linked to that fundamental change.

That is unfortunate.

Health care system in Japan

The US will go single payer because when things collapse they fall to the lowest common denominator, which is ER treatment and public health for communicable disease. Single payer does not mean everybody gets medicaid/medicare. It means everybody gets ER Tx then they are referred to outpatient care on their own dime.

Going to the ER for anything other than a medical emergency is a very inefficient use of resources.

Don't know how SP might be implemented in the US, but that is not how it works in Japan.
ER is solely for medical emergencies. Otherwise one goes to a hospital or clinic to be seen by a general physician or specialist depending on the ailment.

LDC3Lhq0LBA

[Tokyo Medical University in Nishi-Shinjuku]

[Mr. Perfect]

No we won't and we have plenty of options.

Elucidate, please. Why not and what are the plentiful options?

This is a difficult question to answer. The reason is you should already know all the answers.

The HC debate, like the gun debate and many other topics, illuminates the liberal/Democrat "mind", that is ignorance.

Liberals/Democrats have lost the gun/HC and other debates dozens of times, logically, ethically and politically. Democrats have been destroyed at the ballot box dozens of times over these issues.

Yet liberals/Democrats return to the flame as moths to die over and over in an eternal cycle.

The cycle is interesting. What happens is my side presents crushing arguments destroying your side over and over again, and when the topic comes up again, liberals/Democrats totally forget the previous devastating loss and trot out the same tired talking points that were obliterated previously.

What happens normally, is if you lose a debate you look at what happened and improve your responses. You learn why the other side one. You anticipate what they are going to say. you know their arguments in advance.

Liberals/Democrats don't do that. They tend to dehumanize their opposition and pretend they don't exist. This has a downside though which we'll get to, but in my case I know your arguments before you make them.

I know your arguments better than you know your arguments. I know what liberals will say long before they say it.

This is part of why I always win. I always win every single debate on here (and elsewhere) because I know what you will say before you say it. I NEVER lose in part because of this.

Liberals and Democrats almost never know what the conservative argument is before getting into a debate. This is why they almost always lose.

So. It's fun and everything but there are a few consequences.

[Mr. Perfect]

So we have debated socialized medicine dozens of times in America, and your side always loses.

Part of that is I have answered these questions hundreds of times, and liberals never listened and never remembered.

Because liberals are intellectually dishonest. They don't want a debate, they just have a naked agenda of state slavery.

As a result, my attitude on some issues is to treat liberals differently.

You should already know what the conservative response is. In part the tactics of your side are disingenuous to my side and an insult. It's not really in my interest to waste time answering questions for the hundredth time that you have heard 100 times before and never listened to. If you didn't listen for 100 times then you won't on the 101st time.

Rather, it is in my interest for you to roam around in public making arguments that horrifies 60-80% of the public, while I sit back and enjoy the election returns that puts me in the supermajority status.

You see if you had studied the issue at all you would have found that over long periods of time the US public has stated that they want to keep their private insurance over government insurance by margins of 60-80% and voted accordingly. If any of you had studied this issue you would already know that.

You would already know that you have never won and never will win. And it would be in your interest to study the basic arguments my side uses to win.

But it is not in my interest to help you in that regard.

[Nonc Hilaire]

That was a lot of words just to avoid the question. What will happen to healthcare when Obamacare fails?

Just list your options. Option 1, option 2 etc.

So far we have ACA insurers closing, young and healthy people avoiding ACA and people who are covered by ACA for free not using it because the deductables are too high. It isn't hard to see this is inevitably going to end up as some form of single payer. Frankly, I think it was planned that way.

[Mr. Perfect]

That was a lot of words just to avoid the question. What will happen to healthcare when Obamacare fails?

It will get repealed.

EDT: misread the questions. When obamacare fails it will repealed and healthcare will go on being healthcare afterward.

Just list your options. Option 1, option 2 etc.

So far we have ACA insurers closing, young and healthy people avoiding ACA and people who are covered by ACA for free not using it because the deductables are too high. It isn't hard to see this is inevitably going to end up as some form of single payer. Frankly, I think it was planned that way.

Just a quick review of the facts shows otherwise. After obama lost the Ted Kennedy seat to a Republican their plan was derailed and they had to concoct a Frankenstein through reconcilation.

It will simply collapse and be forgotten about.

[Doc]

That was a lot of words just to avoid the question. What will happen to healthcare when Obamacare fails?

It will get repealed.

Just list your options. Option 1, option 2 etc.

So far we have ACA insurers closing, young and healthy people avoiding ACA and people who are covered by ACA for free not using it because the deductables are too high. It isn't hard to see this is inevitably going to end up as some form of single payer. Frankly, I think it was planned that way.

Just a quick review of the facts shows otherwise. After obama lost the Ted Kennedy seat to a Republican their plan was derailed and they had to concoct a Frankenstein through reconcilation.

It will simply collapse and be forgotten about.

And the sooner the better.

[Nonc Hilaire]

No, healthcare is not a capitalist enterprise. It depends on cartelization, and the system cannot run on a cash basis. Without support from the public the hospitals would close for everyone.

What will happen is care/caid will remain and new waiver systems will implemented.

The systemic collapse is assured. There will be an emergency national assistance program which will quickly default to the care/caid CMS accounting system simply because that is all we have.