The myth

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Heracleum Persicum
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The myth

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

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Don’t Whitewash the Hiroshima Bombing

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The myth, the one kneaded into public consciousness, is that the bombs were dropped out of grudging military necessity, to hasten the end of the war, to avoid a land invasion of Japan, maybe to give the Soviets a good pre-Cold War scare.

Nasty work, but such is war.

As a result, the attacks need not provoke anything akin to introspection or national reflection.

The possibility, however remote, that the bombs were tools of revenge or malice, immoral acts, was defined away. They were merely necessary.

That is the evolved myth, but it was not the way the atomic bombings were first presented to the American people.

Harry Truman, in his 1945 announcement of the bomb, focused on vengeance, and on the new power to destroy at a button push—“We are now prepared to obliterate more rapidly and completely every productive enterprise the Japanese have above ground in any city,” said Mr. Truman. The plan put into play on August 6—to force the Japanese government to surrender by making it watch mass casualties of innocents—speaks to a scale of cruelty previously unseen. It was fair; they’d started it after all, and they deserved the pain.

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Nonc Hilaire
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Re: The myth

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

The myth I heard is the bombings were done to scare off a Chinese invasion before the US could secure the country.
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Re: The myth

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Democrat operation, front to back.
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noddy
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Re: The myth

Post by noddy »

if this was being driven by the japanese, on mass, then maybe it might be interesting but the japanese have alot of baggage about prison camps and mass slaughters of their own to myth away so its all going to stay in the horrors of war basket until many more generations have passed.

once again, its a group of political whites self flagellating for internal political reasons and the "others" arent included.

every time i turn on the tv their is a bunch of middle class whites earnestly whining over some tedious detail and never is the "other" they are crying crocodile tears over at the table.

myth's hold all societies together, reality is an ugly place that eats up optimism and pride , no culture is honest with itself.
Last edited by noddy on Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The myth

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Az likes to post anti American content. normally that comes from white leftists, but occasionally you get a Buchananite who throws a tantrum. Nothing of substance going on.
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Re: The myth

Post by Typhoon »

EsCyC1dZiN8

Otherwise, no comment.
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: The myth

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Mr. Perfect wrote:.

Az likes to post anti American content. normally that comes from white leftists, but occasionally you get a Buchananite who throws a tantrum. Nothing of substance going on.

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That makes me sad, very sad

I value MP opinion, read his posts .. him saying "Az likes to post anti American content" makes me really sad .. that means he considers my constructive criticizing as putting America down, far from truth .. Azari does not post anything "ANTI America" .. just meant as constructive critics

Back to Hiroshima and Truman issue .. this not going away .. this will be a "Black mark" in American file .. historians know all the truth and the more time passes the more they will table the facts .. so, MP, better accept the critic and look why that Genocide happened, it would help to not repeating it again.

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Re: The myth

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Lol bro, friends criticize someone said. If so, then I have to criticize you from time to time. If you get to do it you have to do it to others. If you get constructive criticism, then I need to do it to.

Fact is, Colonel Sun is from Japan, Colonel Sun moved on, Mr Perfect moved on, Japan moved on, United States moved on, only people not moved on is white leftist and turncoat right wing, and of course ANTI AMERICANS.
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: The myth

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Mr. Perfect wrote:Lol bro, friends criticize someone said. If so, then I have to criticize you from time to time. If you get to do it you have to do it to others. If you get constructive criticism, then I need to do it to.

Fact is, Colonel Sun is from Japan, Colonel Sun moved on, Mr Perfect moved on, Japan moved on, United States moved on, only people not moved on is white leftist and turncoat right wing, and of course ANTI AMERICANS.

This nothing to do with japan .. this is "world opinion court" .. greatness, leadership, moral high ground , high civilization and and

Truman could have dropped the bomb just 1 mile further on the water and have the same political message .. but he dropped on the head of all those civilian .. this is not from Azari, this is what I watched on TV Ted Turner saying , and I have the greatest respect for Ted Turner.

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Re: The myth

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Ted Turner is a liberal Democrat. Truman was a liberal Democrat. It's not really my concern. I love Japan and her people either way.
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Re: The myth

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Mr. Perfect wrote:.

Ted Turner is a liberal Democrat. Truman was a liberal Democrat. It's not really my concern. I love Japan and her people either way.

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Colonel Sun post Japanese girls in "Beautiful Woman" thread .. at the beginning I was not so much attracted to Japanese girls .. but . recently, for some reason, HP craves Japanese girls .. :lol: :lol:

I too like Japan ..

but this nothing to do with Japan .. you facing the world opinion

and

Liberal and Democrat just "cliche" , buzz word .. Ted Turner is one of grates Americans , he invented building up a phantastic enterprise, CNN, with JUNK BOND .. an American hero .. and .. a real American patriot .. I look up to him (and Jane Fonda) .. they real America, America that we all look up to.

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Re: The myth

Post by Mr. Perfect »

In America td Turner is a punch line with Jane Fonda. Nobody cares about the atomic bomb except people who hate America.
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Re: The myth

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

Our dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan was morally reprehensible and one of many indefensible actions which occurred during that war.

At the same time, everyone in a decision making capacity of the time has long since passed- people who were babies at the time are old men and women, now.

There comes a point where litigating a war 80 years after is not only futile but malicious in intention. The opinion of the "world"-- whoever defines that-- amounts to a hill of beans, as they do not have the ability or standing for adjudication all these years later.

The matter of punishment&retribution is now squarely in God's hands and one I believe (and would argue) we are already facing.
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Re: The myth

Post by Mr. Perfect »

The use of nuclear weapons in that war was the single biggest contributor to the outbreak of peace afterward. A deeply moral decision. Thankfully history looks at it that way and the world has moved on.

However people have forgotten about the fire, and what it can do. Might be time to light the roman candle again.
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Re: The myth

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

The biggest contributor was no one wanting Soviet "liberation" of their lands, leaving the Americans the better party to deal with.

The goal of the Pacific war was ostensibly to limit Japanese expansion. As they were driven back to Japan, the moral course of action would've been a full blockade until surrender was negotiated.

The policy of obliterating cities was a visibly wicked course of action and one done out of hatred.

The consequence has been a time bomb where more and more of our "elites" developed a morbidity to dealing with life, warts and all. They justify this by turning every past action and event into a case-study for their supposed guilt and a growing list of 'never agains' that have nothing to do with the object (or in this case- people) wronged but a display of anxieties about living and the human condition.
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Re: The myth

Post by Zack Morris »

The first bomb was arguably justifiable, the second one less so. In any case, it was certainly not a morally clear-cut decision, and to pretend so reflects moral immaturity and petty tribalism. But it's not just the bombing that was disgusting, the internment camps were a grave moral failure, especially considering that the government at the time knew Japanese-Americans posed no threat and instituted the program only to appease the racist public.
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Re: The myth

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Could be. But the internment camps and the bomb was built and used by 2 Democrats so it's just more sin on your head.
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Re: The myth

Post by Typhoon »

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: . . .

The policy of obliterating cities was a visibly wicked course of action and one done out of hatred.

. . .
WWI: millions of soldiers died on the front lines for the sake of a family feud between inbreed aristocrats while civilian populations remained relatively unscathed*

WWII: a return to total war with civilian populations actively targeted.

All participants behaved barbarically in this regard.

When it comes to war, I have yet to read of a civil way to mass murder civilians.

As participants, Canada and the US were fortunate in that their cities and civilian populations did not experience WWII directly.

*Until the flu pandemic of 1918 to 1920 killed more people that WWI and WWII combined.
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Re: The myth

Post by Mr. Perfect »

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:The policy of obliterating cities was a visibly wicked course of action and one done out of hatred.
You say that like it's bad.

Lol, or you say that like you are sitting in total comfort behind a modern keyboard enjoying air conditioning and every modern convenience with zero skin or relatives in the game.
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Re: The myth

Post by Miss_Faucie_Fishtits »

Making an example of Imperial Japan to the Soviets seems a more likely idea, though not very......'>..........

Even more likely is that American invasion of the Homeland was not really in the cards nor even necessary. A naval blockade would have been sufficient to accomplish what needed to be done, but the obstinance of the War Party in the face of defeat was beyond imagination. A Soviet invasion of Japan was far more likely and imminent. The puppet state in Manchukuo was annihilated and an invasion force was mustering on Sakhalin Island. Now, this is going to be the hard part to imagine; but two nuclear bombs did far less damage to Japanese culture and civilisation than what a Soviet invasion would've done. Hey..... these are the Gulag people, you don't mess with them.......

Given the psychology of the War Party and the people, the destruction of two cities by an instrument of godlike destruction made accepting defeat without loss of face possible and it was possible to negotiate with western allied forces to preserve vital institutions. Thus, it was done:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2 ... War_(1945)

http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/05/30/the ... talin-did/

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/readersr ... story.html
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Re: The myth

Post by Typhoon »

Yes, the primary reason for Imperial Japan's decision to surrender was the imminent possibility of a Soviet-Russian invasion and inevitable occupation.
For various reasons, this was regarded as unthinkable.

Japan did not surrender after the firebombings of Tokyo, Nagoya, Osaka, and other cities, in which more civilians died in firestorms than did from nuclear blast effects.

In 1945, it was clear that Imperial Japan would eventually lose.
Surrendering to the US at that specific point in time was a strategic "between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea" decision.

However, almost everyone who was involved in those events is now dead.

It is beneficial to study and learn from history. To obsess about the past, not so much.
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Re: The myth

Post by Zack Morris »

It's interesting indeed to think about what could have been if the Japanese people had been liberated from their emperor by the Soviets. The leadership would have been executed and shipped off to Gulags. But what fate would have befallen Japan? It is often said that the Japanese are the world's most natural communists. Certainly the Soviet sphere would have benefited from their engineering and artistic prowess. Japan may actually have blossomed even greater than under US rule. One could imagine the country becoming so prosperous and powerful as to reverse colonize the USSR itself and inspiring a globally successful socialist revolution.

But that's the thing about speculative history. We'll never really know.
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Re: The myth

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Zack Morris wrote:It's interesting indeed to think about what could have been if the Japanese people had been liberated from their emperor by the Soviets. The leadership would have been executed and shipped off to Gulags. But what fate would have befallen Japan? It is often said that the Japanese are the world's most natural communists.
By people who know bupkes about Japan.
Zack Morris wrote:Certainly the Soviet sphere would have benefited from their engineering and artistic prowess. Japan may actually have blossomed even greater than under US rule. One could imagine the country becoming so prosperous and powerful as to reverse colonize the USSR itself and inspiring a globally successful socialist revolution.

But that's the thing about speculative history. We'll never really know.
Eastern Europe is still recovering from Soviet-Russian exploitation. Ironically, it may be that Russia never will.

Speculative is far too kind a adjective.
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Re: The myth

Post by Zack Morris »

Typhoon wrote: Eastern Europe is still recovering from Soviet-Russian exploitation. Ironically, it may be that Russia never will.
One could also say that Africa is still recovering from capitalist exploitation. So what?
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Re: The myth

Post by Typhoon »

Zack Morris wrote:
Typhoon wrote: Eastern Europe is still recovering from Soviet-Russian exploitation. Ironically, it may be that Russia never will.
One could also say that Africa is still recovering from capitalist exploitation. So what?
One could, but one would be wrong. Just as there are politicians in India who blame any and all current problems on the British.

Colonial exploitation in Africa ended between 1945 and 1960.
Enough time has passed that Africa's, if one stereotypes an entire diverse continent, current problems are their own responsibility.

As Marx* observed,
If we had some eggs we could have some eggs and ham, if we had some ham.
*Groucho, not Karl.
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