The Healthcare Debate

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Typhoon
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Re: The Healthcare Debate

Post by Typhoon »

A bit of history.

Standford Med | Insurance policy
How an industry shifted from protecting patients to seeking profit.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
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Doc
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Re: The Healthcare Debate

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Colonel Sun wrote:A bit of history.

Standford Med | Insurance policy
How an industry shifted from protecting patients to seeking profit.
Yeah health insurance was originally advertised as non profit. What it really is today, is a pre-payment plan that charges a large negative interest rate.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Miss_Faucie_Fishtits
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Re: The Healthcare Debate

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Doc wrote:
Colonel Sun wrote:A bit of history.

Standford Med | Insurance policy
How an industry shifted from protecting patients to seeking profit.
Yeah health insurance was originally advertised as non profit. What it really is today, is a pre-payment plan that charges a large negative interest rate.
And the so-called account holders (Medicare especially) have payments made on their behalf by personal and corporate taxpayers, deferred payments based on projected future medical and fiduciary assets, and scattershot IOU's based on hopefully, maybe and...... that's a problem for Future Homer, glad I'm not that guy......'>.......
She irons her jeans, she's evil.........
Mr. Perfect
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Re: The Healthcare Debate

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Colonel Sun wrote:A bit of history.

Standford Med | Insurance policy
How an industry shifted from protecting patients to seeking profit.
What a terrible article.
Censorship isn't necessary
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Typhoon
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Re: The Healthcare Debate

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Mr. Perfect wrote:
Colonel Sun wrote:A bit of history.

Standford Med | Insurance policy
How an industry shifted from protecting patients to seeking profit.
What a terrible article.
What an insightful comment.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
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Nonc Hilaire
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Re: The Healthcare Debate

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

We need to get off this monolithic concept of heathcare. There are a thousand independent issues to address, and we could make progress if they were addressed independently.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

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Re: The Healthcare Debate

Post by Simple Minded »

Colonel Sun wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:
Colonel Sun wrote:A bit of history.

Standford Med | Insurance policy
How an industry shifted from protecting patients to seeking profit.
What a terrible article.
What an insightful comment.
I suspect the comment was meant to be inciteful.
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Doc
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Re: The Healthcare Debate

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Nonc Hilaire wrote:We need to get off this monolithic concept of heathcare. There are a thousand independent issues to address, and we could make progress if they were addressed independently.
Actually there are billions of issues to address and they all relate to government in health care.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Re: The Healthcare Debate

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Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote:
Doc wrote:
Colonel Sun wrote:A bit of history.

Standford Med | Insurance policy
How an industry shifted from protecting patients to seeking profit.
Yeah health insurance was originally advertised as non profit. What it really is today, is a pre-payment plan that charges a large negative interest rate.
And the so-called account holders (Medicare especially) have payments made on their behalf by personal and corporate taxpayers, deferred payments based on projected future medical and fiduciary assets, and scattershot IOU's based on hopefully, maybe and...... that's a problem for Future Homer, glad I'm not that guy......'>.......
Then don't be that guy :P
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Typhoon
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Re: The Healthcare Debate

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CIty J | Correlation Without Causation
Why expanding social services won’t do much to cut America’s health-care costs
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Nonc Hilaire
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Re: The Healthcare Debate

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Colonel Sun wrote:CIty J | Correlation Without Causation
Why expanding social services won’t do much to cut America’s health-care costs
The view from the Ivory Tower is idyllic.
Homeless shelters are far cheaper than hospitals and prisons.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

Teresa of Ávila
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Re: The Healthcare Debate

Post by Simple Minded »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:
Colonel Sun wrote:CIty J | Correlation Without Causation
Why expanding social services won’t do much to cut America’s health-care costs
The view from the Ivory Tower is idyllic.
Homeless shelters are far cheaper than hospitals and prisons.
Always tough to separate the "politics" from the "science." So much of health care costs in the US are the result of voluntary life style choices. "Oink Oink, too many donuts!"

" The U.S. exemplifies this affluence—and excess—though the country’s high rates of obesity, diabetes, and cardiovascular disease (double those in Europe) illustrate the limits of the “social determinants of health” argument. "

Then there is the contradicting goals. Good health care = lower health care costs + longer life = increased social security costs.

Easy to measure in terms of dollars and cents, but attaining the goal of lower costs to society might not mesh with the moral arguments.
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Nonc Hilaire
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Re: The Healthcare Debate

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

My money is on the primary cause of obesity and diabetes ending up being endocrine disruptors, primarily sugar.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

Teresa of Ávila
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Doc
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Re: The Healthcare Debate

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Simple Minded wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote:
Colonel Sun wrote:CIty J | Correlation Without Causation
Why expanding social services won’t do much to cut America’s health-care costs
The view from the Ivory Tower is idyllic.
Homeless shelters are far cheaper than hospitals and prisons.
Always tough to separate the "politics" from the "science." So much of health care costs in the US are the result of voluntary life style choices. "Oink Oink, too many donuts!"

" The U.S. exemplifies this affluence—and excess—though the country’s high rates of obesity, diabetes, and cardiovascular disease (double those in Europe) illustrate the limits of the “social determinants of health” argument. "

Then there is the contradicting goals. Good health care = lower health care costs + longer life = increased social security costs.

Easy to measure in terms of dollars and cents, but attaining the goal of lower costs to society might not mesh with the moral arguments.
In the early 1960's the Ivory tower of medicine decided that with more doctors graduating from Medical school that Medicine needed more money. They said (their excuse) was even more doctors were needed because of the threat of nuclear war with the Soviet Union. More doctors were needed to assure that enough would survive a nuclear war to treat the survivors. So they pushed for several things. Like Doctors specializing in specific types of medicine. And Medicare. The result is that the average bill for giving birth to a child for but one example went from $100 to $25,000. Medicare pays doctors who buy specialized machines a payment every time that machine is used. Even long after the machine has been paid for.

When the above was not "enough" money generated Health insurance went from non profit to for profit. Doctors were required to give a 50% discount to health insurance companies in exchange for a monthly payment for each patient covered that the given doctor had as a patient. The health insurance companies encouraged the doctors to double what they charged non insured patients. Which meant that the health insurance companies were paying exactly what patients would have paid if there never had been health insurance.

So of course health insurance became all that more important to have since health care double in cost overnight. So major medical get carried over to all medicine no matter how trivial.

This system also was of great benefit to doctors just out of medical school with large debts as it took time to build up a sufficient number of patients to make enough money to pay the costs.

But then the lawyers got involved with malpractice law suits and the doctors had to have ever larger and more expensive malpractice insurance.

It just keeps going and going, and like the Mexican border, no one in power ever does anything about fixing it(Except Trump).
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Re: The Healthcare Debate

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Nonc Hilaire wrote:My money is on the primary cause of obesity and diabetes ending up being endocrine disruptors, primarily sugar.
It's almost any processed food. The only way out is to grow your own heirloom foods.
Censorship isn't necessary
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Re: The Healthcare Debate

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Mr. Perfect wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote:My money is on the primary cause of obesity and diabetes ending up being endocrine disruptors, primarily sugar.
It's almost any processed food. The only way out is to grow your own heirloom foods.
I blame medicine for the obesity and diabetes epidemic.

U8VHc49ZdP4
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Re: The Healthcare Debate

Post by Simple Minded »

Doc wrote:
I blame medicine for the obesity and diabetes epidemic.

U8VHc49ZdP4
Doc, obviously you have learned nothing from the gun control crowd, spoons are to blame for all human health problems.

imagine the health care savings possible if we had national "common sense spoon control" laws.
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Doc
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Re: The Healthcare Debate

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Simple Minded wrote:
Doc wrote:
I blame medicine for the obesity and diabetes epidemic.

U8VHc49ZdP4
Doc, obviously you have learned nothing from the gun control crowd, spoons are to blame for all human health problems.

imagine the health care savings possible if we had national "common sense spoon control" laws.
If spoons are outlawed only the MSM will have spoons to feed people "the News".
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Typhoon
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Re: The Healthcare Debate

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JAMA | Life Expectancy and Mortality Rates in the United States, 1959-2017
Abstract
Importance US life expectancy has not kept pace with that of other wealthy countries and is now decreasing.

Objective
To examine vital statistics and review the history of changes in US life expectancy and increasing mortality rates; and to identify potential contributing factors, drawing insights from current literature and an analysis of state-level trends.

Evidence
Life expectancy data for 1959-2016 and cause-specific mortality rates for 1999-2017 were obtained from the US Mortality Database and CDC WONDER, respectively. The analysis focused on midlife deaths (ages 25-64 years), stratified by sex, race/ethnicity, socioeconomic status, and geography (including the 50 states). Published research from January 1990 through August 2019 that examined relevant mortality trends and potential contributory factors was examined.

Findings
Between 1959 and 2016, US life expectancy increased from 69.9 years to 78.9 years but declined for 3 consecutive years after 2014. The recent decrease in US life expectancy culminated a period of increasing cause-specific mortality among adults aged 25 to 64 years that began in the 1990s, ultimately producing an increase in all-cause mortality that began in 2010. During 2010-2017, midlife all-cause mortality rates increased from 328.5 deaths/100 000 to 348.2 deaths/100 000. By 2014, midlife mortality was increasing across all racial groups, caused by drug overdoses, alcohol abuse, suicides, and a diverse list of organ system diseases. The largest relative increases in midlife mortality rates occurred in New England (New Hampshire, 23.3%; Maine, 20.7%; Vermont, 19.9%) and the Ohio Valley (West Virginia, 23.0%; Ohio, 21.6%; Indiana, 14.8%; Kentucky, 14.7%). The increase in midlife mortality during 2010-2017 was associated with an estimated 33 307 excess US deaths, 32.8% of which occurred in 4 Ohio Valley states.

Conclusions and Relevance
US life expectancy increased for most of the past 60 years, but the rate of increase slowed over time and life expectancy decreased after 2014. A major contributor has been an increase in mortality from specific causes (eg, drug overdoses, suicides, organ system diseases) among young and middle-aged adults of all racial groups, with an onset as early as the 1990s and with the largest relative increases occurring in the Ohio Valley and New England. The implications for public health and the economy are substantial, making it vital to understand the underlying causes.
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Miss_Faucie_Fishtits
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Re: The Healthcare Debate

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Might be related to this attitude in regards to anything social services and personal responsibility:

Image
She irons her jeans, she's evil.........
Simple Minded

Re: The Healthcare Debate

Post by Simple Minded »

Colonel Sun wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:08 pm JAMA | Life Expectancy and Mortality Rates in the United States, 1959-2017
Abstract
Importance US life expectancy has not kept pace with that of other wealthy countries and is now decreasing.

Objective
To examine vital statistics and review the history of changes in US life expectancy and increasing mortality rates; and to identify potential contributing factors, drawing insights from current literature and an analysis of state-level trends.

Evidence
Life expectancy data for 1959-2016 and cause-specific mortality rates for 1999-2017 were obtained from the US Mortality Database and CDC WONDER, respectively. The analysis focused on midlife deaths (ages 25-64 years), stratified by sex, race/ethnicity, socioeconomic status, and geography (including the 50 states). Published research from January 1990 through August 2019 that examined relevant mortality trends and potential contributory factors was examined.

Findings
Between 1959 and 2016, US life expectancy increased from 69.9 years to 78.9 years but declined for 3 consecutive years after 2014. The recent decrease in US life expectancy culminated a period of increasing cause-specific mortality among adults aged 25 to 64 years that began in the 1990s, ultimately producing an increase in all-cause mortality that began in 2010. During 2010-2017, midlife all-cause mortality rates increased from 328.5 deaths/100 000 to 348.2 deaths/100 000. By 2014, midlife mortality was increasing across all racial groups, caused by drug overdoses, alcohol abuse, suicides, and a diverse list of organ system diseases. The largest relative increases in midlife mortality rates occurred in New England (New Hampshire, 23.3%; Maine, 20.7%; Vermont, 19.9%) and the Ohio Valley (West Virginia, 23.0%; Ohio, 21.6%; Indiana, 14.8%; Kentucky, 14.7%). The increase in midlife mortality during 2010-2017 was associated with an estimated 33 307 excess US deaths, 32.8% of which occurred in 4 Ohio Valley states.

Conclusions and Relevance
US life expectancy increased for most of the past 60 years, but the rate of increase slowed over time and life expectancy decreased after 2014. A major contributor has been an increase in mortality from specific causes (eg, drug overdoses, suicides, organ system diseases) among young and middle-aged adults of all racial groups, with an onset as early as the 1990s and with the largest relative increases occurring in the Ohio Valley and New England. The implications for public health and the economy are substantial, making it vital to understand the underlying causes.
My first thought on this, no doubt true, we're a much fatter herd now than a few decades ago.
Second thought, good luck solving on a national scale. The sense of individual freedom means I can abuse myself as much as I want.

A low cost start to a solution is promotion of a national body shaming culture that demonizes fat people!
"Fat people are driving up the cost of health care for all!"
"Fat people create more green house gases and cause more climate change! They're the SUV's of the human race! Save the planet! Eat a fat person!"
"Fat people are Nazi's! Be a member of ANTI-FAT!"
"Woke people ain't fat!"
"Fat people taste like chicken!"

Hmmm...... this might actually be a really fun problem to sovle. Kinda surprising the idea of a FAT TAX has not already been floated.
Last edited by Simple Minded on Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:54 am, edited 5 times in total.
Simple Minded

Re: The Healthcare Debate

Post by Simple Minded »

Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:02 am Might be related to this attitude in regards to anything social services and personal responsibility:

Image
And cats are willing to kill those who disagree with them also......
Simple Minded

Re: The Healthcare Debate

Post by Simple Minded »

Crap, somebody is beating me to the punch:
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noddy
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Re: The Healthcare Debate

Post by noddy »

Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:02 am Might be related to this attitude in regards to anything social services and personal responsibility:

Image
rather ironically, cats are the perfect example - they sponge off humans if its available and quickly revert to wild type when its not.

self suffiicient, pragmatic survivors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_cat

heh.
ultracrepidarian
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