Ukraine

[monster_gardener]

Would not be surprising if it will take many months before an independent body of investigators can say what happened with MH17. Everything now is info-war and finger pointing. Those who actually did it will do all they can to cover it up.

Of course Putin is responsible for pushing the East of Ukraine into a civil war by annexing Crimea and infiltrating with Russian agents, fighters, surface to air missiles and other military resources to help those separatists. You only have to come from Portugal or Iran to be in denial. But who shot the plain down is another question. Putin blew it already. If the Ukrainian government downed MH17 on purpose... well then you have two who blew it and the rest of Europe can then happily let these morons figuring it all out alone and among each other.

Thank You VERY MUCH for your post, Rhapsody Parodite....

Largely Seconded....

Except that it will likely be unhappy anyway in most outcomes: Get Ready for Refugees....

[Endovelico]

Would not be surprising if it will take many months before an independent body of investigators can say what happened with MH17. Everything now is info-war and finger pointing. Those who actually did it will do all they can to cover it up.

Of course Putin is responsible for pushing the East of Ukraine into a civil war by annexing Crimea and infiltrating with Russian agents, fighters, surface to air missiles and other military resources to help those separatists. You only have to come from Portugal or Iran to be in denial. But who shot the plain down is another question. Putin blew it already. If the Ukrainian government downed MH17 on purpose... well then you have two who blew it and the rest of Europe can then happily let these morons figuring it all out alone and among each other.

Let's suppose that the Walloons in Belgium were strong enough to try and reimpose the French language in Flanders, and reimpose an unitarian state dominated by them. And suppose all that was done with the use of force. Wouldn't the Netherlands feel they should assist their Flemish brethren in their struggle for liberty? Is it so strange that Russia assists their fellow Russians in the Ukraine gain some measure of autonomy and respect for the Russian language and traditions? Russia did reintegrate Crimea in Russia, but it never showed any interest in doing the same in Eastern Ukraine. Or else they would have done so a long time ago. What surprises me is that Russia hasn't yet imposed a cease-fire by means of a localized and limited invasion of Eastern Ukraine. Seeing the way Ukrainians have been treating civilians is Eastern Ukraine, Russia would be more than justified in intervening militarily. In a similar situation I assure you that the US would have already invaded the Ukraine.

[Doc]

Would not be surprising if it will take many months before an independent body of investigators can say what happened with MH17. Everything now is info-war and finger pointing. Those who actually did it will do all they can to cover it up.

Of course Putin is responsible for pushing the East of Ukraine into a civil war by annexing Crimea and infiltrating with Russian agents, fighters, surface to air missiles and other military resources to help those separatists. You only have to come from Portugal or Iran to be in denial. But who shot the plain down is another question. Putin blew it already. If the Ukrainian government downed MH17 on purpose... well then you have two who blew it and the rest of Europe can then happily let these morons figuring it all out alone and among each other.

Let's suppose that the Walloons in Belgium were strong enough to try and reimpose the French language in Flanders, and reimpose an unitarian state dominated by them. And suppose all that was done with the use of force. Wouldn't the Netherlands feel they should assist their Flemish brethren in their struggle for liberty? Is it so strange that Russia assists their fellow Russians in the Ukraine gain some measure of autonomy and respect for the Russian language and traditions? Russia did reintegrate Crimea in Russia, but it never showed any interest in doing the same in Eastern Ukraine. Or else they would have done so a long time ago. What surprises me is that Russia hasn't yet imposed a cease-fire by means of a localized and limited invasion of Eastern Ukraine. Seeing the way Ukrainians have been treating civilians is Eastern Ukraine, Russia would be more than justified in intervening militarily. In a similar situation I assure you that the US would have already invaded the Ukraine.

OK what about all the Russians living in the Baltic states? What about all the Chinese living in Tibet? Are they reason for Russia and China to attack and occupy them?

[monster_gardener]

Would not be surprising if it will take many months before an independent body of investigators can say what happened with MH17. Everything now is info-war and finger pointing. Those who actually did it will do all they can to cover it up.

Of course Putin is responsible for pushing the East of Ukraine into a civil war by annexing Crimea and infiltrating with Russian agents, fighters, surface to air missiles and other military resources to help those separatists. You only have to come from Portugal or Iran to be in denial. But who shot the plain down is another question. Putin blew it already. If the Ukrainian government downed MH17 on purpose... well then you have two who blew it and the rest of Europe can then happily let these morons figuring it all out alone and among each other.

Let's suppose that the Walloons in Belgium were strong enough to try and reimpose the French language in Flanders, and reimpose an unitarian state dominated by them. And suppose all that was done with the use of force. Wouldn't the Netherlands feel they should assist their Flemish brethren in their struggle for liberty? Is it so strange that Russia assists their fellow Russians in the Ukraine gain some measure of autonomy and respect for the Russian language and traditions? Russia did reintegrate Crimea in Russia, but it never showed any interest in doing the same in Eastern Ukraine. Or else they would have done so a long time ago. What surprises me is that Russia hasn't yet imposed a cease-fire by means of a localized and limited invasion of Eastern Ukraine. Seeing the way Ukrainians have been treating civilians is Eastern Ukraine, Russia would be more than justified in intervening militarily. In a similar situation I assure you that the US would have already invaded the Ukraine.

Thank You Very Much for Your Post, Endovelico,

Let's suppose that the Walloons in Belgium were strong enough to try and reimpose the French language in Flanders, and reimpose an unitarian state dominated by them. And suppose all that was done with the use of force. Wouldn't the Netherlands feel they should assist their Flemish brethren in their struggle for liberty?

Need to tweak the analogy just a little...

That in this hypothetical timeline, Belgium had been the junior partner/abused wife of the Dam AmsterDammers who not so long ago were ruled by a Tyrant named Joseph Van Stalinvelt who as part of an insane Socialist scheme had shot and starved to death millions of Belgians ESPECIALLY the French speaking Walloons (some of whom adopted the Dam AmsterDammer language & culture to survive) and then largely replaced the shot or starved to death Walloons with Dam AmsterDammer colonists.

Under Joseph Van Stalinvelt (unlike the culture of Holland & AmsterDam in our time line) the culture of the Dam AmsterDammers had NOTHING to do with liberty and very little liberty under his sucessors until near the end of the EVIL Socialist Dynasty when the Belgium finally got its independence but also a slew of problems especially that in the North were a lot of ethnic Dam AmsterDammers and Walloons who had effectively become Dam AmsterDammers plus the Dam AmsterDammers still wanted to dominate Belgium.

Right now since that hasn't been working too well it looks like the Dam AmsterDammers are intent on biting off the parts of Belgium that are filled with Dam AmsterDammer colonists and ASSimilated Dam AmsterDammer Walloons which also happen to be the most industrialized parts of Belgium.

Even though some call the Walloons criminal Mafia Organized Crime types, the Walloons should be allowed to laugh both heartily & hysterically when outsiders mention Dam AmsterDammers and liberty in the same sentence

It is possible that it was the Walloons who shot down a Portuguese Airliner that was stupid enough to fly into an active warzone because the Walloons thought it was the official Dam AmsterDammer Jet carrying their hated enemy the Talented Mr. Van Putinvelt , President Prince Vladimir the Imprisoner of Holland back from a CEMENT conference in the Nutty Land of Brazil

Looks like a real mess for Western Europe which may cause a flood of refugees to Eastern Europe especially prosperous Russia governed as a Democratic Constitutional Monarchical Republic by Empress Anastasia , His Gay Honor Prime Minister Pym Fortuyn assisted by His Holiness Rhapsody Rasputin the Arch-Parodite and Bartok , his Magical Pet Albino White Bat who is an accomplished Musician ....

Theodore Van Gogh reporting.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastasia_%281997_film%29

C68SkzGb6Ww

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C68SkzGb6Ww

8kIwkqORGaE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kIwkqORGaE

[Heracleum Persicum]

.


Western governments directly target Russia's economic prospects, notably its energy industry.


This article confirms what I'm saying .. West wants to slow down Russia (and China and Iran)

West was sticking to Russia by advancing NATO and encircling Russia .. same happening with China .. Same encircling with Iran

Idea is, to economically weaken Russia & China & Iran

Will not work

Russia & China & Iran can inflict pain on west costing same size they takin

Main loser could be Europe .. probably that is what US wants, a "dependent" Europe

Dollar could rise .. Euro drop, British pound for sure headed for a massive haircut

West does not care about Ukraine (Ukraine headed to "Syrian" circumstances) .. Latvia Estonia etc will be destabilized, EX Eastern Europeans will follow (paying the price for their folly)

All this Western plan .. why this plan ? ?

Reason is, not enough "Natural Resources" for 3.5 Billion new consumers that would enter market if "OTHERS" (meaning not WEST) start eating and driving and and .. WEST would have to cut dramatically living habits & standard .. Bush & Baker & Chaney said this openly .. Necons sayin this openly

Thinking in the above sense, shooting down Malaysian Airliner makes perfect sense, WEST "manufacturing" a dramatic excuse to start the ball rolling, standard procedure start with dramatic WESTERN civilian casualty, exactly same with than "false flag" 9/11 game

Joe fooled again into next disaster

This same situation that lead to WW 1 and later to WW 2

Germany wanted their fair share of "free" natural resources that Brits had all in their hand .. same as now West controls pretty much all natural resources (controlling the technology to extract those natural resources, in western hand, is same as Brits having colonies with those resources) .. Brits said NO to Germany, WW1&2 followed .. West saying NO to Russia & China & Iran (to provide technology to extract those natural resources "economically" same NO as Brits said to Germany .. in Iranian case things go even further as confiscating Iranian money and sanctioning food and medicine, all act of wars in UN charta)

We basically in 1910 .. same situation

IMVVHO .. WEST now as Brits 1910 , CHINA now as Germany 1910

The coming clash will be between CHINA (that needs all kind of natural resources to grow as Germany of 1910 did) .. and .. WEST that controls those natural resources (controlling the technology to extract them same as controlling them)

Russia not end target but China

Many "circumstantial evidence" points to the above

Everybody knows game played .. that is why nobody saying anything

And .. Mr. Perfect .. Mosche smart guy, he moving away from you guys .. West probably will lose the game as Brits lost the game to Germany .. look where Germany is today and where Britain


.

[Endovelico]

OK what about all the Russians living in the Baltic states? What about all the Chinese living in Tibet? Are they reason for Russia and China to attack and occupy them?

I don't think that Russians in the Baltic states or the Chinese in Tibet are or were in any way threatened. Besides, Russians are strangers in the Baltic states, which is not the case in what we call the Ukraine. Kiev is very much the birthplace of Russia and eastern Ukraine - just like Crimea - are/were part of Ukraine only because the Soviet Union decided so. Even so I don't think Russia would interfere in Ukraine if the Ukrainian government granted some form of autonomy to eastern Ukraine.

[Parodite]

Would not be surprising if it will take many months before an independent body of investigators can say what happened with MH17. Everything now is info-war and finger pointing. Those who actually did it will do all they can to cover it up.

Of course Putin is responsible for pushing the East of Ukraine into a civil war by annexing Crimea and infiltrating with Russian agents, fighters, surface to air missiles and other military resources to help those separatists. You only have to come from Portugal or Iran to be in denial. But who shot the plain down is another question. Putin blew it already. If the Ukrainian government downed MH17 on purpose... well then you have two who blew it and the rest of Europe can then happily let these morons figuring it all out alone and among each other.

Thank You VERY MUCH for your post, Rhapsody Parodite....

Largely Seconded....

Except that it will likely be unhappy anyway in most outcomes: Get Ready for Refugees....

Wars.. civil wars... are always terrible with loads of refugees. It's only human to help them.

[Parodite]

Let's suppose that the Walloons in Belgium were strong enough to try and reimpose the French language in Flanders, and reimpose an unitarian state dominated by them. And suppose all that was done with the use of force. Wouldn't the Netherlands feel they should assist their Flemish brethren in their struggle for liberty? Is it so strange that Russia assists their fellow Russians in the Ukraine gain some measure of autonomy and respect for the Russian language and traditions? Russia did reintegrate Crimea in Russia, but it never showed any interest in doing the same in Eastern Ukraine. Or else they would have done so a long time ago. What surprises me is that Russia hasn't yet imposed a cease-fire by means of a localized and limited invasion of Eastern Ukraine. Seeing the way Ukrainians have been treating civilians is Eastern Ukraine, Russia would be more than justified in intervening militarily. In a similar situation I assure you that the US would have already invaded the Ukraine.

Whatever the legitimate concerns about the Ukraine's fragile internal situation (the way minorities are treated is indeed the perfect measure of how civilized a society is...) in my view there is one simple red line that Putin crossed; annexing the Crimea and now fueling the civil war by supporting the separatists with fighters, agents and military equipment against their own government. He might have chosen to urge, together with the rest of Europe, people to calm down and engage in dialogue instead of bullets, resolve the issue of possible separation of parts of the Ukraine into Russia in a civil manner democratically and take a lot of time... some years.. for that discussion. There is no hurry! He could have reacted without the usual paranoia on the wish of the Ukrainian gvt to have closer ties with Western Europe.. which would not harm Russia in any way, on the contrary. I think you underestimate the toddlerish nature of little Putin.

Now those economic sanctions by the EU/US are stupid IMO, they don't do a thing and only escalate things.

NATO and Russia best move in together and work with the Ukrainian gvt to stabilize the situation, round up all outlaws and protect civilians from further escalation of this totally needless display of Full HD brainstem separated Baboonism. Given that we all care about human lives a lot, especially civilians.. this shouldn't be a very difficult thing to do, right?

[monster_gardener]

Let's suppose that the Walloons in Belgium were strong enough to try and reimpose the French language in Flanders, and reimpose an unitarian state dominated by them. And suppose all that was done with the use of force. Wouldn't the Netherlands feel they should assist their Flemish brethren in their struggle for liberty? Is it so strange that Russia assists their fellow Russians in the Ukraine gain some measure of autonomy and respect for the Russian language and traditions? Russia did reintegrate Crimea in Russia, but it never showed any interest in doing the same in Eastern Ukraine. Or else they would have done so a long time ago. What surprises me is that Russia hasn't yet imposed a cease-fire by means of a localized and limited invasion of Eastern Ukraine. Seeing the way Ukrainians have been treating civilians is Eastern Ukraine, Russia would be more than justified in intervening militarily. In a similar situation I assure you that the US would have already invaded the Ukraine.

Whatever the legitimate concerns about the Ukraine's fragile internal situation (the way minorities are treated is indeed the perfect measure of how civilized a society is...) in my view there is one simple red line that Putin crossed; annexing the Crimea and now fueling the civil war by supporting the separatists with fighters, agents and military equipment against their own government. He might have chosen to urge, together with the rest of Europe, people to calm down and engage in dialogue instead of bullets, resolve the issue of possible separation of parts of the Ukraine into Russia in a civil manner democratically and take a lot of time... some years.. for that discussion. There is no hurry! He could have reacted without the usual paranoia on the wish of the Ukrainian gvt to have closer ties with Western Europe.. which would not harm Russia in any way, on the contrary. I think you underestimate the toddlerish nature of little Putin.

Now those economic sanctions by the EU/US are stupid IMO, they don't do a thing and only escalate things.

NATO and Russia best move in together and work with the Ukrainian gvt to stabilize the situation, round up all outlaws and protect civilians from further escalation of this totally needless display of Full HD brainstem separated Baboonism. Given that we all care about human lives a lot, especially civilians.. this shouldn't be a very difficult thing to do, right?

Thank You VERY Much for your post, Rhapsody Parodite.

Now those economic sanctions by the EU/US are stupid IMO, they don't do a thing and only escalate things.

Yep...... Just enough to annoy and escalate.....

Given that we all care about human lives a lot, especially civilians..

Not sure......

Evidence is often to the contrary.....

Even if true.....

I suspect many often love other things or particular groups more.....

Which may be deadlier than hating.........

(Hat tip to the late Poul Anderson).....

this shouldn't be a very difficult thing to do, right?

Suspect it might be as bad or worse than Kosovo......

Keep types like US General Wesley Clark as far away as possible....

Based on their records, put British General Sir Mike Jackson & Captain James Blount in charge......

And PRAY....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incident_a ... t#Incident

[kmich]

AP Analysis: Putin cornered over Ukraine

MOSCOW — For Russian President Vladimir Putin, there are few options left in the Ukraine crisis and they all look bad.

He is caught between a determined West demanding that he disavow the pro-Russian insurgents in Ukraine and increasingly assertive nationalists at home urging him to champion the mutiny and send in the Russian army.

The Malaysian plane disaster this week triggered another round of U.S. and EU sanctions, which for the first time targeted entire sectors of the Russian economy, severely limiting Putin’s room for maneuver. He may be eager to sever ties with the rebels, but he would need to find a way to do so that would allow him to save face — an exceedingly hard task amid growing Western pressure.

Bowing to Western demands would potentially spell political suicide for the Russian leader, who has built his popularity on standing up to the West. Under pressure, he may choose instead to escalate the crisis and risk an all-out confrontation.

Putin didn’t plan for it to happen this way.

Last fall, he used a combination of pressure and subsidies to prevent Ukraine from signing an association agreement with the EU and lure it into a Moscow-led alliance. When mass protests chased the Russian-leaning Ukrainian president from power in February, Putin saw it as a Western plot against Russia and quickly moved to annex Ukraine’s Black Sea peninsula of Crimea to head off what he said was the imminent threat of Ukraine joining NATO.

Putin then sought to maintain pressure on the West by fomenting a pro-Russian insurgency that flared up in Ukraine’s mostly Russian-speaking industrial east in April, apparently hoping that a slow-burning conflict would help persuade the West to strike a compromise that would allow Russia to keep Ukraine in its orbit.

That strategy has failed. The West, especially Europe, long showed unwillingness to take a strong punitive stand against Putin. But the downing of the Malaysian passenger plane was the unforeseen event that overturned the dynamic, and compelled the West to act.

It appears that the Russian leader now is desperately looking for a way out from the crisis in hopes of containing the gravest threat to his rule to date. Here are some possible scenarios that may play out:

RUSSIA STRIKES COMPROMISE

From the start, Putin wanted to a deal with a West that would allow Russia to maintain its leverage over Ukraine, and he has steadily tempered his ambitions.

At the onset of the turmoil, Putin hoped that Ukraine would join a Russia-dominated economic alliance. When such hopes evaporated with the ouster of President Viktor Yanukovych, Moscow began pushing for a “federalization” of Ukraine that would give broad powers to its provinces and allow them to deal directly with Moscow. Rebels later backed those demands by conducting independence referendums that both Ukraine and the West declared a sham.

The Kremlin then softened its rhetoric and started calling vaguely for a “dialogue” between the central government and the regions that would give the provinces a bigger say over local issues.

Now with his hand weakened by the plane disaster, Putin may be eager to accept any vague deal that would allow Moscow to maintain just a symbolic degree of influence. Such a deal, however, would have to involve concessions by both parties, something that is hard to achieve amid continuing fighting and growing distrust.

The West has demanded that the Kremlin disown the rebellion in eastern Ukraine. While Putin may despise the ragtag band of retired Russian officers and Moscow political consultants that have helped foment the mutiny, it would be hard for him to distance himself from them without denting his support base.

The Malaysian plane disaster, however, could offer a face-saving way of publicly condemning the rebel leadership. If an international investigation confirms that the missile that downed the plane on July 17 was launched by the rebels, Putin may say that Russia can’t support those who were responsible for the tragic death of nearly 300 innocent people. Such a statement could pave the way for talks.

MORE SANCTIONS PROVOKE TOUGH RESPONSE

Putin possibly fears that any concessions would only lead to more Western pressure and may choose to remain defiant. If he keeps refusing to distance himself from the rebels, the West will remain reluctant to engage in any talks. Fighting in the east, which already involves heavy artillery and rockets pummeling residential areas, will raise the pressure on Putin to intervene militarily.

Putin is already facing scathing criticism in Russian nationalist publications and online forums for betraying Russian speakers in Ukraine by failing to send in the army.

At some point, fearing that the damage to his popularity could become irreparable, Putin may send more weapons to the rebels. More Western sanctions will not stop his hand, but rather may push him into a situation where any compromise would look like kowtowing to the West.

Pressed against the wall, Putin may even decide to send troops into Ukraine. They would likely crush the weak and disorganized Ukrainian military within days. The West would be unlikely to intervene militarily, but it would freeze virtually all ties with Moscow, sending the Russian economy into a tailspin. Living standards will plummet quickly, possibly spawning social unrest.

GROWING TURMOIL, UNPREDICTABLE CONSEQUENCES

Some in the West may hope that the sanctions will encourage members of the Russian elites as well as the broad public to demand a change of course.

However, the tightly controlled Russian political system leaves little room for dissent. Billionaire tycoons, some of whom have close personal links to Putin, stand to lose a lot from Western sanctions and would like Putin to soften his policy. But hopes that they may somehow persuade the president to pull out of confrontation seem futile, as the oligarchs are too scared to form any kind of united group, and official loyalties are closely controlled by Putin’s fellow KGB veterans who dominate the officialdom.

Many in Washington expected Putin’s businessmen friends who were hit by U.S. sanctions in March to push him toward de-escalation. The opposite has happened. Instead of encouraging a pro-Western opposition, more sanctions will likely further strengthen the Kremlin hawks, who may push Putin toward an even more confrontational and isolationist course.

In a sense, the Russian leader has become hostage to his own propaganda that has cast the West as an enemy of Russia.

Putin’s approval ratings so far have remained high, but if the economy starts collapsing under the brunt of Western sanctions his popularity would dwindle quickly. It doesn’t mean, though, that pro-Western democratic forces would have any chance to expand their presence on Russia’s political scene.

Amid the war in Ukraine and Western sanctions, the weak and disorganized Russian liberals have become increasingly marginalized, while extreme nationalist forces have strengthened considerably.

Economic meltdown would further allow nationalist groups to expand their sway, and Russian volunteers now fighting in eastern Ukraine may become an explosive element in a changing political equation.

The prospect of potential unrest could re-ignite fears that accompanied the 1991 Soviet collapse. Thousands of nuclear warheads, smoldering conflicts between a myriad of ethnic groups, separatist movements and crumbling industrial infrastructure that could lead to technological disasters make any instability in Russia deadly dangerous for the rest of the world.

[Endovelico]

American and European leaders (?) may be repeating the idiocies that led to WWI. Americans can't be seen to lose face against Russia, and European leaders are pathetic. They are pushing Russia towards intervening militarily in the Ukraine, and what will the US and Europe gain from that? They can make life harder for Russians for a while, but Russia will eventually replace their dependence on the West with greater ties and trade with China and the other BRICS countries. I only hope the US is not so stupid as to send troops to the Ukraine if Russia intervenes. Unfortunately the present US Administration is of such low quality that anything is possible.

[Doc]

American and European leaders (?) may be repeating the idiocies that led to WWI. Americans can't be seen to lose face against Russia, and European leaders are pathetic. They are pushing Russia towards intervening militarily in the Ukraine, and what will the US and Europe gain from that? They can make life harder for Russians for a while, but Russia will eventually replace their dependence on the West with greater ties and trade with China and the other BRICS countries. I only hope the US is not so stupid as to send troops to the Ukraine if Russia intervenes. Unfortunately the present US Administration is of such low quality that anything is possible.

Seems more like Putin is the one that miscalculated. He wants more money to enrich himself and his cronies. So he does not want Europe independence from Russian natural gas. That is what this is really about. What comes after Putin will likely be worse as well. The nationalize he has stoked up is going to eat him alive.

[Endovelico]

American and European leaders (?) may be repeating the idiocies that led to WWI. Americans can't be seen to lose face against Russia, and European leaders are pathetic. They are pushing Russia towards intervening militarily in the Ukraine, and what will the US and Europe gain from that? They can make life harder for Russians for a while, but Russia will eventually replace their dependence on the West with greater ties and trade with China and the other BRICS countries. I only hope the US is not so stupid as to send troops to the Ukraine if Russia intervenes. Unfortunately the present US Administration is of such low quality that anything is possible.

Seems more like Putin is the one that miscalculated. He wants more money to enrich himself and his cronies. So he does not want Europe independence from Russian natural gas. That is what this is really about. What comes after Putin will likely be worse as well. The nationalize he has stoked up is going to eat him alive.

Putin has more money already than he could ever need or spend. The fact is that Putin is an old style Russian nationalist who is moved by the desire to make Russia strong and independent. His number one enemy is the US, not Europe, and Europe could easily find an accommodation with Russia to their mutual advantage. Unfortunately Europe is led by morons who fail to see the advantage of cooperating with Russia.

[Doc]

American and European leaders (?) may be repeating the idiocies that led to WWI. Americans can't be seen to lose face against Russia, and European leaders are pathetic. They are pushing Russia towards intervening militarily in the Ukraine, and what will the US and Europe gain from that? They can make life harder for Russians for a while, but Russia will eventually replace their dependence on the West with greater ties and trade with China and the other BRICS countries. I only hope the US is not so stupid as to send troops to the Ukraine if Russia intervenes. Unfortunately the present US Administration is of such low quality that anything is possible.

Seems more like Putin is the one that miscalculated. He wants more money to enrich himself and his cronies. So he does not want Europe independence from Russian natural gas. That is what this is really about. What comes after Putin will likely be worse as well. The nationalize he has stoked up is going to eat him alive.

Putin has more money already than he could ever need or spend. The fact is that Putin is an old style Russian nationalist who is moved by the desire to make Russia strong and independent. His number one enemy is the US, not Europe, and Europe could easily find an accommodation with Russia to their mutual advantage. Unfortunately Europe is led by morons who fail to see the advantage of cooperating with Russia.

I get the feeling that he would not give much of a hoot about Russia if he were not the Czar

[Endovelico]

Too long to post here, but please read. It is worth your while:

The West's Reckless Rush Towards War with Russia

http://www.peakprosperity.com/blog/8641 ... war-russia

[YMix]

Too long to post here, but please read. It is worth your while:

The West's Reckless Rush Towards War with Russia

http://www.peakprosperity.com/blog/8641 ... war-russia

Excellent article.

[Heracleum Persicum]

Too long to post here, but please read. It is worth your while:

The West's Reckless Rush Towards War with Russia

http://www.peakprosperity.com/blog/8641 ... war-russia

Excellent article.

seconded


.

[monster_gardener]

American and European leaders (?) may be repeating the idiocies that led to WWI. Americans can't be seen to lose face against Russia, and European leaders are pathetic. They are pushing Russia towards intervening militarily in the Ukraine, and what will the US and Europe gain from that? They can make life harder for Russians for a while, but Russia will eventually replace their dependence on the West with greater ties and trade with China and the other BRICS countries. I only hope the US is not so stupid as to send troops to the Ukraine if Russia intervenes. Unfortunately the present US Administration is of such low quality that anything is possible.

Thank You Very MUCH for your post, Endovelico....

Americans can't be seen to lose face against Russia,

IMHO not so much......

Because that Arrogant Globalist INCOMPETENT Lazy LYING Son of a Bitch Eating Socialist Statist Traitor Darth obama really doesn't have any face to lose....

obama has already discredited him self with his LYING & Redlining etc....

So obama may to a degree save the Talented Mr. Putin, President Prince Vlad the Imprisoner of Russia from himself if Kmich's article is correct....

Speaking for myself and I believe other Americans of varying political persuasion, I believe America has little enthusiasm for intervening in the Ukraine* with that Arrogant Globalist INCOMPETENT Lazy LYING Son of a Bitch Eating Socialist Statist Traitor Darth obama who seem to have a dung touch unless it involves electioneering or golfing or other vacationing....

Even DemocRATs like Diane Feinstein are getting sick of the Arrogant Globalist INCOMPETENT Lazy LYING Son of a Bitch Eating Socialist Statist Traitor Darth obama ....

Note that Kmich's article said likely no intervention.....

They are pushing Russia towards intervening militarily in the Ukraine,

Hello! Kmich's article said that it is Russian nationalists who are pushing the Talented Mr. Putin toward intervention...

IIRC Alexis posted a video link which likely was made by/for Putin telling the Rabid Russian Nationalists to back off on pressuring him to invade the Ukraine unless they are willing to enlist and put their Bare Bear Behinds on the front lines.... Trouble is, I suspect some of them are willing to do that...

I only hope the US is not so stupid as to send troops to the Ukraine if Russia intervenes.

I agree.....

Especially with that Arrogant Globalist INCOMPETENT Lazy LYING Son of a Bitch Eating Socialist Statist Traitor Darth obama in charge....

Likewise that Uncaring Incompetent Even With An Easy Button "What Difference Does it Make" Giggling About Getting Rapists Off Careless B!tch Hillary Clinton and her wife Bill who missed so many shots at killing Bin Ladin when President

Unfortunately the present US Administration is of such low quality that anything is possible.

Seconded......

That said, I wonder how you would feel if the plane had been Portuguese and you had family members on it....

If the plane had been American & likewise I might be tempted to be more militant on the subject...

But maybe not....

This has happened before..... KAL007.....
Having Nukes usually means Never Having to Say You're Sorry and mean it....

And Russia has nukes
Not the Ukes....

*other than maybe with some sanctions and non lethal aid to the Ukes and even that is predicated on them not being the Killer Klowns who shot down that stupidly piloted air liner

[Endovelico]

Who shot the plane down? A view from the BBC:

zUvK5m2vxro

[YMix]

For better or worse, the formation of NATO in the late 1940′s involved what were perceived to be vital national security interests against a Stalinist policy that by the lights of the hawks and militarists of the day amounted to a violation of his Yalta obligations. Accordingly, NATO constituted an alliance of real nations—England, France, Italy and West Germany—-that could make a meaningful contribution to collective security against the perceived Soviet threat of the times.

But Albania, Bulgaria, Latvia, Slovakia and Slovenia? And that is not to forget Moldova, Georgia, Macedonia and the Ukraine—all of which are still coveted for membership by the NATO apparatchiks. What could these micro-states possibly contribute to American security? That’s especially the case since the Warsaw pact had been dissolved; the Soviet Empire has erased from the pages of history; and the Russian successor was left with an Italian sized GDP encumbered with the destructive legacy of a state-dominated economy that had been appropriated by a passel of thieves, opportunists and oligarchs.

In short, today’s Ukrainian crisis is the outcome of the mindless 20-year drive of the Warfare State to push an obsolete NATO to the very doorstep of Russia, and into the messy remnants of the Soviet disintegration. Stated differently, Putin has been in power for 15 years, yet during 13 of those years there was no hue and cry from Washington, London and Brussels that he was an incipient Hitler bent on sweeping conquest. Even the so-called invasion of Georgia in 2008 was a tempest in a teapot provoked by local pro-Russian separatists who did not want to be ruled by a de facto American interloper in Tbilisi.

In any event, it was the $5 billion that Washington spent during the last decade meddling in Ukrainian politics, and finally inciting and financing the February overthrow of the country’s constitutionally elected government that precipitated the current civil war. It brought to power a new gang of crooks and thugs who could not govern for a day without tapping the Washington/Western financial lifeline. Indeed, the civil war now raging, the brutal military attacks on civilian populations and the hundreds of thousands of refugees now streaming out of the eastern regions are the result of a crisis made in Washington, not the Kremlin.

http://davidstockmanscontracorner.com/o ... r-big-lie/

[Doc]

Who shot the plane down? A view from the BBC:

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Oh Brother. This is the kind of crap that starts world wars. Sure they are honest witnesses in a rebel held zone

[Endovelico]

Oh Brother. This is the kind of crap that starts world wars. Sure they are honest witnesses in a rebel held zone

And who, in your opinion, are honest witnesses? The Ukrainian government? The Ukrainian armed forces? Obama? John Kerry?...

[Doc]

Oh Brother. This is the kind of crap that starts world wars. Sure they are honest witnesses in a rebel held zone

And who, in your opinion, are honest witnesses? The Ukrainian government? The Ukrainian armed forces? Obama? John Kerry?...

I look at teh source of the video

http://slavyangrad.org/

You might note that it is clearly a rabidly pro Russian blog.

Repeating the same lies over and over again are not evidence. 298 people that had nothing to do with Putin's war of conquest were killed. So far we have seen looting of the bodies Removal of parts of the aircraft before it was investigated. And some of th ewilest propaganda coming out of official russian news outlets in history. These stories would make the North Korean leaders blush

I have not seen one person here or anywhere that believes the Russian version of events respond to this NOT ONE.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/20 ... picks=true

Russian Media Goes Far Out to Explain Malaysia Airlines Disaster
By Carol Matlack July 18, 2014
A piece of wreckage from Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 is pictured on July 18 in Shaktarsk, the day after it crashed

Photograph by Dominique Faget/AFP via Getty Images

A piece of wreckage from Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 is pictured on July 18 in Shaktarsk, the day after it crashed

Russians awoke on Friday to news reports that bumbling Ukrainian troops had shot down a Malaysia Airlines (MAS:MK) jet after mistaking it for President Vladimir Putin’s official plane. Another theory: The Ukrainians intentionally shot down the jet at close range as a “planned provocation.” Or maybe there wasn’t a crash at all, and the bodies were those of passengers from Malaysia Air flight M370, which disappeared in March.

Most of these weird news reports aren’t coming from tabloids or fringe websites. They’re coming from Russia’s leading news outlets], which are almost entirely under state control.[/b The report on the mistaken identification of Putin’s plane, for example, aired on Channel One, the country’s most popular TV network. The journalists never explained why the Ukrainians might have thought Putin was in the neighborhood, since he was attending a well-publicized summit in Brazil on the day of the crash.

State-owned news agency ITAR-TASS, meanwhile, put out a report disputing suggestions that separatist rebels may have hit the plane with a Buk surface-to-air missile. It quoted a spokesman for the rebels as saying they had no weapons capable of shooting down an airliner at 33,000 feet—overlooking that ITAR-TASS itself had previously reported that the rebels had seized Buk missiles from a Ukrainian military installation.
Story: The Malaysia Air Crash: The Finger-Pointing Doesn't Stop

Someone at state-run All-Russia State Television & Radio Broadcasting even appears to have edited a Russian-language Wikipedia article on plane crashes today, to say that the plane “was shot down by Ukrainian soldiers.”

And Sara Firth, a London-based correspondent for Russia’s international TV network RT, said today that she was quitting because RT was spreading “shockingly obvious misinformation.” She’s the second RT journalist to leave this year while accusing the Kremlin of shaping the network’s news coverage.


To outsiders, Russian media coverage of the Ukraine crisis may seem far-fetched, conspiracy-laden, and contradictory. But it’s effectively convinced Russians that the Ukrainian rebels need their help to fight brutal repression by Kiev. “Aggressive and deceptive propaganda, worse than anything I witnessed in the Soviet Union,” is how Lev Gudkov, director of the Levada polling group, described it to the BBC last month. Indeed, Levada surveys show that most Russians think their country should be doing more to support the rebels, including direct military intervention in Ukraine.

Until now, this has helped Putin withstand a storm of international criticism and sanctions that risk harming Russia’s ailing economy. Yet the inflamed public opinion could also make it harder for Russia to back away from the rebels if investigators find that they shot down a civilian aircraft with 298 people on board. Putin may find that his support for the rebellion has unleashed an “uncontrollable force,” says Angela Stent, director of the Center for Eurasian, Russian and East European Studies at Georgetown University’s School of Foreign Service.

“As pro-Putin media and social network trolls invent increasingly fantastical versions” of the crash, writes Bloomberg View columnist Leonid Bershidsky, “Russia risks becoming a pariah even to developing countries that have sympathized with its anti-American stance.”

A major source of questionable information about the crisis has come from state-controlled Channel One. The network recently drew condemnation for a report claiming Ukrainian troops had crucified a small boy by nailing him to a billboard in the city of Slavyansk. No other news organization could find witnesses to the incident, which Channel One said took place before a crowd in the city’s central square. Among other dubious elements in the report was a glaring issue: There’s no billboard in Slavyansk’s central square.


In its Friday report on the Ukrainians’ allegedly mistaking the Malaysia Air jet for Putin’s plane, Channel One said the Boeing (BA) 777 could be confused with the Ilyushin (UNAC:RM) II-96 used by the Russian president if seen from a distance. It would be hard to mistake them close-up, however, since the Ilyushin has four engines and the Boeing has two. Not to mention the Russian presidential insignia and other differentiating marks that would be easily visible at close range. Yet in a separate report, Channel One suggested that a Ukrainian fighter jet might have shot down the plane and even offered quotes from villagers near the crash site saying another plane had been flying alongside the Boeing before the explosion.

Out in Russian cyberspace, the theories get even weirder. One of the most fanciful contends that no crash occurred and that the scene was staged with corpses from the earlier Malaysia Air flight, which were sprinkled with fake passports and other items to throw investigators off the trail.

The media have “juggled different versions: Ukrainian fighter, Ukrainian rocket attack on Putin, and so on,” columnist Oleg Kashin writes on the Russian-language Free Press website. “The more versions there are, the less clear it is, and the more time there is to work out the final version that will become canonical.”


SO which version is it Endo? Clearly they all can not be true. And clearly there is lots of BS being made up for propaganda's sake that stinks of Russian direct involvement. .

[YMix]

Repeating the same lies over and over again are not evidence.

That's what I said to myself watching news outlet after Western news outlet screaming about Putin the Criminal. Two weeks later and the mighty intelligence apparatus of the USA has yet to produce any evidence.

As for Russian propaganda.... Sounds like the 911 truth movement. Sounds like the average conspiracy theory one could read online. Plenty of that stuff floating around. As Parodite noted, it's all infowar.

[Endovelico]

Oh Brother. This is the kind of crap that starts world wars. Sure they are honest witnesses in a rebel held zone

And who, in your opinion, are honest witnesses? The Ukrainian government? The Ukrainian armed forces? Obama? John Kerry?...

I look at teh source of the video.

The video shows a news item from the BBC. The source is the BBC...