Europe

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

You sure the song isn't Europe's Final Countdown?

RIkajmoNr5I

[YMix]

At this time, I very much doubt it. I don't see the CEE minors able to stop the mandatory quotas plan, nor willing to leave the EU.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

At this time, I very much doubt it. I don't see the CEE minors able to stop the mandatory quotas plan, nor willing to leave the EU.

Being very outside of what is going on, I have no clue or any thought that wouldn't be a lo-info reaction to what I read or see.

It sounds like a very resource intensive process and one which only works if the numbers are not overwhelming for the officials.

Germany’s Merkel sharpens tone towards migrants amid backlash

I feel like the guy who ran to the lavatory and missed the most important exposition of a film, so maybe this has already been addressed:

Why didn't they head off any problem with camps in Turkey and Jordan?

Is there any plan in place to relocate the refuges once hostilities have ceased as was done previously?

[YMix]

Why didn't they head off any problem with camps in Turkey and Jordan?

Not sure Turkey or Jordan want to deal with this. Political relations between Turkey and the EU are not that good.

Is there any plan in place to relocate the refuges once hostilities have ceased as was done previously?

A return plan is in place, but it's not effective. However, new measures have already been proposed. See point 4.

[YMix]

From another forum:

Mass-immigration is generally not a political problem. It is a humanitarian. But in this case

- it is caused by terrible politics
- it is intensified by terrible politics

You will be hardpressed to find someone who will admit it, but the hungarian laws on immigration implement the EU's directives to the point. The current EU immigration policies have been pushed by largely - suprise - germany. In 1997, the Dublin Treaty (Dublin I) took effect that basically says that immigrants have to apply for asylum in the EU country on which he first set foot. Now if it pleases you, you can fetch a map and take a wild guess which country had the largest interest in Dublin. Just kidding, you don't actually have to think for yourself here. It's Germany. With one swoop of legislative, Germany was able to legally dodge large amounts of immigrants over the years, while most of them naturally ended up in the EU's border countries, like Italy and Greece.

Over the years Dublin was extended, today Dublin III is in force. Dublin III expects that the EU's border countries run large reception camps, in which immigrants have to be recorded and have to make their initial request for asylum. The members of the EU are prohibited from letting immigrants journey on without prior recording of their personal data into the EU's central register. Unsuprisingly, this has lead to intolerable conditions in Italy and Greece. But why should Germany care? Every single demand by the european parliament towards a solidary division of immigrants (including the financial burden) has been cockblocked by Germany.

Event under today's circumstances, Germany still refuses to handle requests for asylum if the immigrant did not set foot onto german soil first when entering the EU. In this case, the EU laws provide that Germany declares itself not responsible and deport the immigrant back into the country in which the immigrant first set foot. In 2011, Dublin was torn apart a little. Back then, the EU court decided that deportation to greece is illegal, because the bankrupt state could not guarantee the human rights of the immigrants (man mag es kaum glauben). Today, hungary is the preferred country of deportation for german administration. In Q2 2015 alone, Germany requested 3565 deportations to Hungary alone, then Italy (2305) and Bulgaria (1411), totalling at 11819. Only a small amount of those requests were executed, only 931 were actually deported. The reason for that is that Hungary, as well as Italy or Bulgaria, have massive deficits actually implementing the EU immigration laws and can usually not guarantee the human rights of the immigrants (see above).

So. What does this all mean for our funny little thread here? Hungary is forced by Dublin to register incoming immigrants in reception camps, accept the requests for asylum and execute the law. And even if the immigrants on Keleti chant 'Germany' another thousand times, a german concession is de jure impossible. Victor Orban acts 100% and without a shade of doubt comforming to the law. He is a lupenreiner demokrat and should have a medal fastened to his chest. :salute: Victor Orban, you are the EU. :salute: :salute: :salute: And if he stands in Brussels and tells the high court that Germany could issue a visum to these people so that Hungary could let them journey on, then this too is juristically absolutely correct. By the way Dublin III also provides for a 'law of self-admission', by which a country can declare its responsibility. That means the german government could take responsibility of all the immigrants in hungary right now and guarantee them a swift journey to Germany. But she doesn't. Why? Because it's naturally much more convenient to rand about 'evil Hungarians'. Tja.

On the other hand, should Hungary move and enable the immigrants to travel on it would explicitely violate Dublin III and can expect that the immigrants will be returned asap. Italy has been rebuked by Germany and France several times in the past, because it didn't detain and register its immigrants. What is the german government so upset about anyway? That Hungary, unlike Italy, is not violating any laws?

Of course, it's fairly obvious to anyone with half a brain that Orban is exploiting the situation to look like a hawk. Sure, you can critizise that. But you cannot critizise that Orban is implementing EU law 1:1. If you want to lavender on anything, don't lavender on Hungary or Orban, lavender on the EU laws! Even Hungary's "border fence" to serbia isn't just EU law to the letter but also mirrors their character: It's not about protecting refugees, it's about protection from refugees - be it at the border fence in Melila, or between Hungary and Serbia or south of Malta and Lampedusa. German politicans that are now digging for sympathy when they remind us about 'a humanitarian treatment for refugees' are complete hypocrits. You cannot on one hand push laws that enable border fences and registration camps of dubious reputation and actively work towards drowning thousands of people in the mare nostrum and on the other hand be upset about countries like Hungary that put these laws into practice.

Merkel. Of course her katzenjammer is big when it comes to distribution quotas. Is Merkel really suprised, so many countries are against these quotas? Not even a year ago, Merkel belonged to the same group of european leaders that didn't want to hear a word about solidarity in refugee distribution. It's obvious. Germany does not border a non-EU country and wants to elegantly leave the problem of immigration to countries like Greece, Bulgaria, Italy and Hungary; countries that already have financial issues and where asylum according to german notions is not possible. But the situation has changed. The border countries have surrendered, the immigrants will come to germany anyway and they won't be returned - thanks to our renitent judges that thump on daft things like human rights and our constitution. Now Germany has to deal with a flood of immigrants, like the other countries before her. And it is this very moment were Merkel, once again, takes centerstage and demands solidarity from the rest of the EU and take some of those immigrants from poor poor Germany's shoulders. Does anyone here honestly believe that this shitty behavior has any chance of success?

[Alexis]

[Mr. Perfect]

Looks like a lot of nativism.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

Not sure Turkey or Jordan want to deal with this. Political relations between Turkey and the EU are not that good.

Right. I knew about the Turkey situation. And quickly searching around it seems pretty apparent that the Turkey/Jordan camps already set up are pretty swamped, so the question was a bit of a dud.

A return plan is in place, but it's not effective. However, new measures have already been proposed. See point 4.

Interesting.

[Parodite]

Hopefully things get better organized soon. Points of attention apart from a reasonable quota mechanism methinks:

Points of entry in usually low capacity poor countries like Greece need way more funding. To make them registry points seems reasonable; assessing who those people are, where they came from, what is their professional skill set etc. After that they can rather quickly be moved into Europe following 1) the general quota agreement, and 2) choice of location depending on where adults may have the biggest chance of finding work, in combination with an education-integration plan.

Totally overlooked as usual; the need to inform and educate immigrants from otherly cultures about our value system, free speech, constitution and law, history etc. Would make some sort of exam obligatory at some point if they want to get citizenship anywhere in Europe. A cultural driving licence.

Also overlooked: most refugees did not have the money to make a trip to Europe and ended up in miserable camps in the Meddle East. Don't count on the generosity of Turkey for starters. More international funding and oversight of these camps to hold up standards. Maybe oil-rich states can be pressed to to throw loads of money. Maybe Trump could squeeze it out of them

[Alexis]

Hopefully things get better organized soon. Points of attention apart from a reasonable quota mechanism methinks

Hope is good, Parodite. Hope is good...

As for the "reasonable": the quota system as planned, if it can be made to work (that's a if: migrants may not accept to go in this country if they had wanted to get to that one), should result in approximate trebling of the rythm of immigration we have had in France lately. Approximately a quarter million more immigrants a year than before, each year, for an indefinite time, in France alone. That takes into account present trends, however not the very real possibility that the trend would accelerate within the next few years.

I'm not sure that qualifies as "reasonable".

Government here is in full head-in-the-sand mode - or is it full lies mode? - and tells the public that there will be only 24,000 refugees in a period of two years.

As a result, the necessary hard public debate about what to do has not even begun. Essentially, the alternative is between:

- Accepting x 3 on immigration, maybe more soon, and transform our whole economy and society so as to be able to assimilate them. Just as a beginning: we would need to create hundreds of thousands jobs more every year, this for people whose majority will have only very low qualification. That requirement would not be the only one, far from it, but just for that one we would have a choice between total dismantlement of our social system (then it could be possible to employ people for a pittance, and many jobs could be created) and ferocious protectionism so that . This... just for the first requirement

- Repelling all illegal immigrants. Legally speaking (UN Convention on Refugees 1951) there would be no problem whatsoever, because we would not repel them to a border beyond which may lie a danger to their life. In a nutshell: their life is not threatened in Turkey. As for financing the Syrian refugees there - the UN HCR has got only 40% of the money they needed for refugees this year - what is missing is 2.5 billion euro, a pittance compared to the scale of mass migration issue. Just paying for that support would be simplest, much cheaper, plus would help a larger number of people. Problem would be the need to call off Schengen and reestablish the French border, since it's a safe bet not all Europeans would agree for repeling immigrants - then everybody could do as he pleases

This crisis has been moving rapidly, and I expect it to continue moving during the next couple of months / then next year when spring & summer are back. I don't know what will happen, scenarios are many. Not all are nice.

What I'm sure of is that this accepting / repelling alternative will be discussed. If not by the government, then during election time. We have regional elections here in France in December. Front National has been at 25 - 28% recently. I'm curious what will be their result end of year. Then of course the presidential election will be in 2017.

[Parodite]

Hopefully things get better organized soon. Points of attention apart from a reasonable quota mechanism methinks

Hope is good, Parodite. Hope is good...

As for the "reasonable": the quota system as planned, if it can be made to work (that's a if: migrants may not accept to go in this country if they had wanted to get to that one), should result in approximate trebling of the rythm of immigration we have had in France lately. Approximately a quarter million more immigrants a year than before, each year, for an indefinite time, in France alone. That takes into account present trends, however not the very real possibility that the trend would accelerate within the next few years.

I'm not sure that qualifies as "reasonable".

Maybe indeed "the reasonable" only qualifies as some nice thought that however will not operate like that ever in the EeYou.

Reasoning from the other end may be better; just let the refugees decide where they want to go and apply for refugee status, and sovereign nations decide for themselves who and how many of them they want to let in. Chances are though that then many of them submerge in illegality moving around and resort to criminality of sorts. But the Disunited States of Europe is maybe better in fighting a fire than preventing it.

[YMix]

French honorary consul 'sold boats to migrants' in Turkey

France has suspended its honorary consul in the Turkish port of Bodrum after a TV report showed her shop selling dinghies to migrants.

Footage secretly filmed by France 2 TV shows Francoise Olcay selling dinghies and life jackets to migrants hoping to reach the Greek islands.

The UN says 124,000 people reached Greece's shores by sea in the first seven months of 2015.

Ms Olcay said the items would be bought elsewhere if she did not sell them.

Admitting that she was taking part in the trade, she alleged that local Turkish authorities were also involved.

She said others would have taken her place if she stopped selling supplies to the migrants.

The BBC's Hugh Schofield in Paris says that while honorary consuls are not members of the diplomatic corps, the news will be a big embarrassment to the French foreign ministry.

The reporter on France 2 TV who uncovered the news had been investigating where migrants in Bodrum were purchasing their supplies.

His inquiries brought him to a large store, with a French flag flying outside and a sign at the entrance saying "French honorary consul".

Ms Olcay confirmed she was the consul, and that she sold boats to the migrants despite knowing it could lead to disaster.

She told the reporter that it was wrong but everyone was doing it.

[YMix]

Brussels to embark on radical plans to create joint EMU treasury and euro parliament

The survival of economic and monetary union will require the creation of new supra-national institutions, including a joint eurozone treasury and a separate euro parliament, according to the single currency's bail-out chief.

Klaus Regling, head of the European Stability Mechanism (ESM), joined a clamour of voices in Brussels who are pushing for member states to cede sovereignty in bid to establish a full-blown fiscal union on the Continent.

The first step will be the creation of a eurozone finance ministry, backed by a separate chamber for the currency's 19 member states in the European parliament, said Mr Regling, who oversees the euro's €500bn rescue fund.

The move is necessary to "increase the robustness and minimise the vulnerabilities of the currency union", said Mr Regling.

He added it would "imply a significant transfer of sovereignty, requiring democratic legitimacy", which could be provided by a "special chamber of the European Parliament composed of deputies solely from euro area Member States".

His comments follow on from Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European Commission, who is pushing for the creation of a euro treasury, along with a system of common deposit insurance and beefed-up tax and spending powers for the European parliament.

Details of the new treasury - which would act as a finance ministry, pooling funds from euro member states - remain sketchy.

But the notion has long been championed by France who want to steer EMU away from simply an enforcer of fiscal discipline, into a true economic government of Europe. Paris has also called for the eurozone to have a permanent finance minister.

Benoit Couere, France's executive board member on the European Central Bank, has called for the new treasury to be founded on the principles of the ESM - which currently pools contributions guaranteed by all members states for use in times of emergency financial stress.

The ESM will be providing up to €60bn of Greece's latest rescue deal, and has been deployed to bail-out Spanish and Cypriot banks over the last three years.

But plans to forge ahead with a political and fiscal union are likely to meet fierce resistance in Berlin.

Germany, Europe's largest creditor state and biggest contributor to eurozone rescue schemes, has rejected surrendering tax and budget powers to Brussels before tougher rules are put in place to limit spending and punish errant governments - including the French.

"It's much more of a French idea rather than something according to Germany's vision for the euro," said Michael Wohlgemuth, director of the Open Europe think-tank in Berlin. "Germans don't even have a word for 'treasury'".

"The body could act as something like a European Monetary Fund but the prospect of seeing the vision through are very small," added Mr Wohlgemuth.

Mr Regling said any transfer of budgetary powers should be carried out without "permanent fiscal transfers or further debt mutualisation" - both concepts which are anathema to Berlin.

Forging new eurozone institutions would also require amendment to the EU's current legal settlement, re-opening the Lisbon Treaty.

Alexis?

[YMix]

[YMix]

Confusion at Austrian train station as Germany closes border

On Sunday evening at the West Bahnhof refugees and normal train passengers struggled to get to Germany after the German government announced it would introduce border controls immediately and that train service with Austria was suspended.

Thousands of refugees hoping to continue their travels to Germany and beyond – some wanted to get to The Netherlands, others Sweden – were stranded in Austria, along the Hungarian border with Nickelsdorf and the German boundary.

Helmut Marban, police spokesman in Nickelsdorf, said about 11,000 refugees had arrived in Austria as of 21:00. They were expecting up to 5,000 more during the night. At the

Although trains were not running from Budapest to Austria nor Austria to Germany, refugees were still arriving on foot from the Hegyeshalom border and via volunteers who spend their weekends driving refugees; thousands mulled around, unsure that to do.

Providing a place to sleep

Charity groups struggled to open places for them to sleep. Klaus Schwertner, director of Caritas, said his group could house 3900 people in Vienna for the night, but he would not discount that more would come. Nickelsdorf already was full and more people were expected to keep coming. Caritas was preparing to bus some of the overflow to Vienna, he said.

Charity groups placed urgent messages on Facebook pages, calling for volunteers, blankets and water. But not all the refugees in the Vienna station wanted to spend the night in Austria.

Most refugees were late getting the information in part because rail officials were also initially not informed. There was also confusion because most of the refugees had difficulty with language, did not understand why they couldn't board trains.

[Alexis]

Brussels to embark on radical plans to create joint EMU treasury and euro parliament

The survival of economic and monetary union will require the creation of new supra-national institutions, including a joint eurozone treasury and a separate euro parliament, according to the single currency's bail-out chief.
(...)
"It's much more of a French idea rather than something according to Germany's vision for the euro," said Michael Wohlgemuth, director of the Open Europe think-tank in Berlin. "Germans don't even have a word for 'treasury'".
(...)
Forging new eurozone institutions would also require amendment to the EU's current legal settlement, re-opening the Lisbon Treaty.

Alexis?

Yes?



Sorry, was training with a few buddies, practicing the hunting down of Europhiliacs and other Federalists.

You got a question?

Ah, this...

Two points:
- It's not "according to Germany's vision for the euro". Need I say more?
- It would need "re-opening the Lisbon Treaty", which was a pain getting through since it followed two popular vetos against a similar treaty from France and the Netherlands (the peoples, not the political class). Need I say more?

Okay, let me resume that practice now. Cheers!

[Parodite]

Migrant crisis: West reaps what it has sown

(CNN)There is something almost Biblical about the mass exodus of desperate people fleeing Syria and other war-torn and impoverished countries. For European governments, struggling to manage the crisis engulfing their borders, the Bible has a succinct lesson they might do well to ponder: "For whatever one sows, that will he also reap."
[...]

A revealing oped. Nothing there that informs or adds.

Is this the result of 2000 years of Christian desperation when the Gods no longer can be bribed with prayers, nor coerced with confessions of guilt, when voluntary humiliation and sought for shame do no longer salvage divine superiority... where self-mutilation is all that remains?

The West is sooo bad and responsible for everything that goes wrong... time to cut some wrists, cut off ears, any.

[YMix]

Okay, let me resume that practice now. Cheers!

Maybe the French are trying to head off Schauble.

[YMix]

Italy tells EU it will opt out of growing GMO crops: statement

ROME (Reuters) - Italy has told the European Commission that it will ban growing crops with genetically modified organisms (GMOs) under a rule that allows European Union countries to opt out of GMO cultivation, a government statement said on Thursday.

Italy's Agriculture, Environment and Health ministers wrote to the commission to "request to exclude cultivation of all the GMOs authorised at an EU level from all of Italian territory," the statement said.

An EU law approved in March cleared the way for new GMO crops to be approved after years of deadlock. But the law also gave individual countries the right to ban GMO crops even after they have been approved as safe by the European Commission.

On Wednesday, Germany sent a similar letter to Brussels, and Bulgaria also said it would opt out of GMO cultivation.

[Heracleum Persicum]

Italy tells EU it will opt out of growing GMO crops: statement

ROME (Reuters) - Italy has told the European Commission that it will ban growing crops with genetically modified organisms (GMOs) under a rule that allows European Union countries to opt out of GMO cultivation, a government statement said on Thursday.

Italy's Agriculture, Environment and Health ministers wrote to the commission to "request to exclude cultivation of all the GMOs authorised at an EU level from all of Italian territory," the statement said.

An EU law approved in March cleared the way for new GMO crops to be approved after years of deadlock. But the law also gave individual countries the right to ban GMO crops even after they have been approved as safe by the European Commission.

On Wednesday, Germany sent a similar letter to Brussels, and Bulgaria also said it would opt out of GMO cultivation.

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excellent idea


.

[Heracleum Persicum]

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Despite Shrinking Populations,
Eastern Europe Resists Accepting Migrants


.

[Alexis]

Despite Shrinking Populations,
Eastern Europe Resists Accepting Migrants

Oh not all Eastern Europeans think this way. Take e.g. Poland's Miriam Shaded, daughter of a Syrian father and Polish mother.

She is the most known helper of refugees in the country, and has organized asylum for 174 Syrians in Poland (link in German), saving their lives. She's organizing with others to bring and host more Syrian refugees in Poland.

Only Christians. (Shaded's father incidentally is a Protestant pastor)

Shaded warns with the starkest words against bringing Muslims to Poland. "They want to take possession of Europe for Islam. What we are living today is a Muslim raid. They want to introduce the Sharia."


For the majority of Eastern Europeans it is not a question of racism nor xenophobia. Shaded herself is proof that Arab-European mariages produce beautiful offspring:



It's a question of religion, more precisely of the sacred Law that comes with it, and obviously the various exploits of Islamists in the Middle East and elsewhere have generally not helped reputation of Muslims, to say the least.

I know that a good part of that is unfair, because the very large majority of Muslims, at least in France, are good people. Also, the majority of victims of Islamists are Muslims themselves... women, to begin with.

However, it's just a fact that global reputation of Muslims has taken a nosedive because of the behaviour of Islamists. Western Europeans and to a lesser extent Americans are the exception, being ready to host large numbers of mostly Muslim migrants. Some Black Africans also might be among the exceptions.

But most non-Muslim countries don't want any large number of Muslim immigrants. Eastern Europeans are among this majority. Japan to take an example is generous with help towards refugees, 1.6 billion $ for Syrians and Iraqis - provided they stay put. Out of 5,000 requests, Tokyo granted asylum last year to all of 11 people. China, Russia, India etc. have similar policies, minus the financial help.

“It is an issue of demography,” Abe told reporters after his speech to the UN general assembly. “I would say that before accepting immigrants or refugees, we need to have more activities by women, elderly people and we must raise our birth rate. There are many things that we should do before accepting immigrants.”

[Typhoon]

Italy tells EU it will opt out of growing GMO crops: statement

ROME (Reuters) - Italy has told the European Commission that it will ban growing crops with genetically modified organisms (GMOs) under a rule that allows European Union countries to opt out of GMO cultivation, a government statement said on Thursday.

Italy's Agriculture, Environment and Health ministers wrote to the commission to "request to exclude cultivation of all the GMOs authorised at an EU level from all of Italian territory," the statement said.

An EU law approved in March cleared the way for new GMO crops to be approved after years of deadlock. But the law also gave individual countries the right to ban GMO crops even after they have been approved as safe by the European Commission.

On Wednesday, Germany sent a similar letter to Brussels, and Bulgaria also said it would opt out of GMO cultivation.

.

excellent idea


.

Why ?

[Typhoon]

Italy tells EU it will opt out of growing GMO crops: statement

ROME (Reuters) - Italy has told the European Commission that it will ban growing crops with genetically modified organisms (GMOs) under a rule that allows European Union countries to opt out of GMO cultivation, a government statement said on Thursday.

Italy's Agriculture, Environment and Health ministers wrote to the commission to "request to exclude cultivation of all the GMOs authorised at an EU level from all of Italian territory," the statement said.

An EU law approved in March cleared the way for new GMO crops to be approved after years of deadlock. But the law also gave individual countries the right to ban GMO crops even after they have been approved as safe by the European Commission.

On Wednesday, Germany sent a similar letter to Brussels, and Bulgaria also said it would opt out of GMO cultivation.

.

excellent idea


.

Why?

[Heracleum Persicum]

Italy tells EU it will opt out of growing GMO crops: statement

ROME (Reuters) - Italy has told the European Commission that it will ban growing crops with genetically modified organisms (GMOs) under a rule that allows European Union countries to opt out of GMO cultivation, a government statement said on Thursday.

Italy's Agriculture, Environment and Health ministers wrote to the commission to "request to exclude cultivation of all the GMOs authorised at an EU level from all of Italian territory," the statement said.

An EU law approved in March cleared the way for new GMO crops to be approved after years of deadlock. But the law also gave individual countries the right to ban GMO crops even after they have been approved as safe by the European Commission.

On Wednesday, Germany sent a similar letter to Brussels, and Bulgaria also said it would opt out of GMO cultivation.

.

excellent idea


.

Why ?

GM food no good

Once we found out "why no good", it would be too late.

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