Greece

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Endovelico
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Greece

Post by Endovelico »

Can the Left Save Greece?
By Yiannis Milios and Yiannis Baboulias - January 12, 2013

For the fifth consecutive year, Greece is mired in deep, morale-shattering recession. In those five years the country’s GDP has plummeted by nearly 20%, and few expect 2013 to bring an improvement.

The crisis exposed what all Greeks knew was there, but found themselves unable to influence: a corrupt, nepotistic political system, reflecting an equally corrupt and untouchable financial elite. Often, they were one and the same, and we knew this.

Following Greece's collapse, the European Union was more concerned with containing the crisis than in helping the country recover. Solutions supposedly designed to cure our ailing economy instead exacerbated the pain: to reduce a deficit created by the political class, the country’s people were forfeit. Deep austerity, massive loans, neoliberal policies to make most Thatcherites blush, and a society in permanent nervous breakdown followed.

Three memoranda of understanding, or loan agreements, signed between Greece and its Troika of lenders (the EU, ECB and IMF) were supposed to restore the economy’s competitiveness by trimming its “fat” (i.e. welfare). Growth would pick up and the country would begin to recover as soon as… last year. This, of course, didn’t happen. The massive loans Greece receives serve only to recapitalise banks, which hoard them (when they’re not giving out suspiciously large loans to pro-austerity TV stations) in order to meet new regulations imposed by the ECB and to repay previous loans.

Meanwhile increasing numbers of households can’t afford heating this winter and cities suffocate in the smog of burned wood. Some 20,000 people remain homeless on the streets of Greece while thousands of homes remain empty, repossessed by banks widely viewed as complicit in creating the crisis.

The country grows more isolated by the month, as firms (whether Greek or multinationals like Coca-Cola) leave for greener pastures of lower taxation and greater access to capital. Though a 'Grexit' (i.e. Greece leaving the euro) is no longer on the cards, Greece these days is hardly perceived as an EU country. In a gloomy international economic environment, in which even emerging giants like India are seeing their economies slow down, Greece leads the way as a paradigmatic example of capitalism's inability to grow itself out of trouble, an unwilling front-line fighter in the battle for the future.

A collapse of social cohesion has transformed Greece. Fascist gangs roam the streets, assaulting MPs and theatre-goers in the presence of a police force that stands shockingly complicit. The coalition government is ridden with scandal, involving some of its most high profile ministers. But, amidst the banditry and the despair, we’ve also seen cause for hope.

Popular mobilisation from solidarity movements, co-operatives and the occupation of Syntagma has been strong. A left-wing party—the SYRIZA coalition—has for the first time mounted a serious challenge to decades of managed competition between faux-socialist PASOK and the right-wing conservative New Democracy. SYRIZA now polls at an impressive 23%, making it the most likely winner of the next elections as things stand.

Greek liberal and right-wing pundits claim SYRIZA lacks international allies. They mock the visit of its leader, Alexis Tsipras, to Latin America and his meetings with politicians there. But as Prime Minister Antonis Samaras, “Merkel’s man in Athens” and newly coronated Politician of the Year 2012 by German daily Die Handelsblatt, has achieved little more on the international stage than to establish Greece as a beggar-country, these criticisms fail to resonate.

Yet, if Greek liberals and rightists are in no position to ask it, the question nonetheless merits serious consideration: given the Greek economy's relative weakness and its dependence on international lenders, is it realistic to think that a future SYRIZA government could chart an independent economic route out of the crisis? More bluntly, can the Left find its place on the global stage, and can it save Greece?

For an answer, we spoke with SYRIZA's head of economic strategy Yiannis Milios, a professor of economics at the Polytechnic University of Athens known for his often controversial policy proposals (including a 1% flat tax rate imposed on all suffering Greek businesses). He heads a group of economists including Yiannis Dragasakis, Giorgos Stathakis and Efklidis Tsakalotos, who collectively shape SYRIZA’s economic policy.

* * *

How feasible are left-wing economic policies in Greece, within the current international economic framework?

The current climate is without a doubt hostile in most European Union countries. They are mostly governed by neoliberal parties, while their socialist [parties] are actually neoliberal as well. But this reality, which looked so sturdy before the crisis, is now in doubt.

There is obviously intensification in class struggle, not just in Greece but also in Italy, Spain and Portugal, which slowly de-legitimizes the neoliberal spin on the crisis. Therefore, it’s the class struggles themselves that change the circumstances and create this new situation in which the Left perspective steadily gains ground. At this point the paradigm is Greece. No one expected a party that combined so many different factions and commanded such a small percentage of votes before the crisis to find itself a serious candidate to win the next elections. Something similar could happen in other European countries as well, and in a very short amount of time. The historical time of the crisis is very “condensed”.

The Greek government and mainstream media portray SYRIZA, and the left in general, as simply a revival of the old PASOK and its socialist policies of the 1980s—but with greatly reduced funds and borrowing options.

There is indeed an attempt to paint SYRIZA and the European left in the colours of old socialist parties, of clientelism, scandals and unions involved in [shady] dealings with the state. Noteworthy in this is the fact that when the conversation turns to the money PASOK borrowed in the '80s, we forget that it is the current government that is tying the country in to endless dependence on its creditors. The Left has a very clear position on this: only through reshaping the social and production models can European societies get through this crisis. As my colleague Yiannis Dragasakis mentioned recently, if the crisis of 1929 was dealt with through Keynesian economics, and the crisis of the 1970s [was solved] when the markets took over, this crisis will be dealt with through the direct intervention of the base of labour that will finally take the economy and society in its own hands.

The model of a social co-operative economy, operating in a more democratic context, is the one that can take our societies out of this crisis.

Returning for a moment to PASOK, what PASOK was in the '80s has nothing to do with what they are today—essentially a neoliberal, corrupt party. Still, even back then, they favoured capitalist interests over the interests of the vast majority of the people, through the establishment of dependency on foreign centres and the infamous slogan of “Greece for Greeks”. Our lead is what society needs and not the imaginary “foreign ties of the country” to its lenders. We say “people over profit”.

If we accept that the international climate is not conducive to the implementation of left-wing policies in Europe, how should parties of the Left deal with this?

Our positions on this are well known. We represent the social front created in Greece against austerity policies and our ambition, together with the affiliated forces of the European Left party and others who will join in the process, is to enable the establishing of a European front against austerity. Once we’re in power after the next elections, we will no longer be the ones who react but those who can take initiatives towards a different direction. This is what we'll do, not only in Greece, but also on the international level.

As Alexis Tsipras has said in the past, we will call upon all European governments to re-examine all the treaties signed in the past few years, which drove Greek society to the situation we find ourselves in today. At the same time we will call for an international forum to discuss the viability and targets of Greek and European debt and budgets, rather than simply the short-term management of the debt crisis we’ve seen to date. We also intend to take up initiatives in the direction of re-examining the European Union treaties that make up the pivotal points of what brought us to this. The neoliberal model has failed and it’s time for a change. This is the horizon of the European Left politics.

Is there room for co-operation between Conservative/Liberal governments, like those in Germany and Britain, and a future SYRIZA government?


It depends on what we mean by “co-operation”. It won’t be the first time governments with different strategies have co-existed in the EU. Governments always work together in the context of European institutions. In that context, there’s room for debate and the possibility to, again through debate and negotiation, reach a level of co-operation.

In terms of economic policy, what would be SYRIZA’s first moves in Greece, if elected?

First of all, SYRIZA would legislate for the relief of those worst affected by the crisis. It is inconceivable for the basic wage and unemployment benefits in a European country to be below the poverty line. This will have to change. Wages, for once, will be decided through free negotiation between social institutions that represent the productive classes, as is fit for a democratic country. It’s obvious that this is not neglecting the target of erasing our budget deficit.

SYRIZA considers increasing revenue from taxation to be a major priority. We think that what is happening today, and especially the size of the fiscal crisis, is directly related to the general practice of tax-evasion and tax-avoidance of the upper-class of the Greek society. This immunity [from taxation] will end. There will be negotiation, we will use tools like the newly established assets list, we will establish a code that will discourage tax-dodging and we will achieve a dramatic (according to current data) increase in revenue.

We also think it imperative to restructure public expenditure. It’s unthinkable that in a society facing a humanitarian crisis, expenditure is directed towards repression and military spending instead of covering basic necessities like feeding the population and heating schools and hospitals.

Those plans are likely to meet fierce resistance from traditionally powerful lobbies, like ship owners. Could a left-wing government, such as SYRIZA in Greece, gain sufficient traction to overpower these interests?

I think that societies can definitely help with piling up the pressure and supporting governments “from below”. With this support for instance, SYRIZA managed to turn into a unified party instead of many smaller fractions, as it used to be. The party’s relationship with these lobbies will be shaped soon, depending on their willingness to finally shoulder some of the weight the crisis has imposed on the Greek people. It’s certain that the prosperity they enjoyed for decades, the immunity from taxation, has created enough “stock” the powerful could and need to share in order to restart our society.

How would you fund the reconstitution, in the short term, of the productive basis of the Greek economy, currently in ruins in the wake of austerity? And do you think you’d find any allies in these efforts? To put this another way, do you think the Left can initiate or handle a new “New Deal”, especially its first crucial steps?

There certainly need to be new ways to finance our dying economy. For instance, apart from the savings from structural adjustment, special purpose banks will be founded, to operate essentially as investment funds. Point is, this New Deal can’t look anything like that of the 1930s. This New Deal needs to reflect the messages popular movements themselves articulate, the movements in Egypt, Spain, the USA, Greece: young people with the potential to take the world forward. They want to take the means of production in their own hands, to use them in order to shape a future that is now taken from them simply because in a crisis capital tends to end up in very few hands that hesitate to invest it, accustomed as they are to the high revenue figures of the last decades. This vision was expressed through the Syntagma square occupation in Greece, it can take shape in SYRIZA and parties of similar identity all over Europe.

Is the Left in Greece against all investment, as has been claimed many times in the past few months?

It’s impossible to provide a simple answer to this. The only “easy” answer is the one provided by the current coalition government that stands for any and all investment, regardless of the benefits it will bring to the public.

The Left is more realistic. If we define “investment” as a fund coming to buy up businesses which have found themselves in a tough spot because of the crisis, downsize them, fire staff and sacrifice its long-term prospects for short-term profitability, then we are categorically against this. I think that in situations like these, we’d rather see workers themselves taking over the production means, and we will establish the framework for them to be able to do just that.

If, though, we define “investment” as providing capital for the development of activities that respect our society as a whole, that in order to produce profit make use of what modern technology can provide, that respects the worker’s rights and the natural environment, if they cover basic social criteria like jobs creation, then yes, we are for that kind of investment.

Considering the treaties Greece has already signed, though, would SYRIZA have enough room for manoeuvre to achieve these objectives? Haven't previous governments effectively “locked” Greece in to the current set of policies?

The last four governments have done everything within their power to subjugate Greece to the country’s lenders, especially by giving up vital immunities countries usually enjoy. This choice was deeply ideological and classist in nature.

The typical obligation is there for our side. But relations between states are primarily political rather than commercial. A negotiation between a bank and a company is not the same thing as negotiating a loan agreement between states. The most important element here is the political. The negotiation is carried out depending on the position the country’s citizens adopt. If a left-wing government is backed by the people who, in the past, flooded Syntagma square and demonstrated their dissent against austerity policies in every city in Greece, then we have nothing to fear. This negotiation will prove to be of benefit to the vast majority of the Greek society.

http://www.zcommunications.org/can-the- ... nis-milios
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Re: Greece

Post by Endovelico »

The Conscience of a Radical
Greece's Alexis Tsipras is right to challenge the European Union's toxic consensus
By BRET STEPHENS

It is Saturday morning, and New York City is under a sheet of fresh snow. Mr. Tsipras, the leader of Greece's Coalition of the Radical Left, or Syriza, is on a brief visit to the States to meet with think-tank scholars, journalists and International Monetary Fund officials, and to be dined at the State Department.

There's a reason the 38-year-old former civil engineer is being taken seriously. His is the second-largest party in parliament. He wants to throw out the austerity diet that is the IMF-Brussels-Berlin precondition for continued financial life support for Greece. And he could one day be prime minister.

Mr. Tsipras is pondering the subject of bribery while talking about health care in Greece. Like most in Europe, the Greek state is the primary deliverer of medical care through a national health service, and—on paper, at least—it does a great job. The World Health Organization puts Greece in 14th place in its global rankings, though per capita health spending is relatively low. By contrast, the U.S., which spends the most per capita, comes in 38th place in terms of overall quality, behind such health-care paragons as Morocco and Dominica.

From such statistics was the case for ObamaCare made. But Mr. Tsipras takes a dimmer view of health delivery in his native land. "Why in a public hospital, in order to have an operation, do [patients] have to slip [doctors] an envelope with a certain amount of money?" he asks. Why indeed? I ask back. "Because the state gives low wages to doctors thinking it's completely natural for them to add to their salary" by accepting those cash-stuffed envelopes.

I suggest to Mr. Tsipras that maybe the difference between Greek and American doctors is that the latter have so far operated in a mainly private market, though that's about to change. He demurs and instead says something about the need to have a "revolution in conscience" by Greek citizens, plus "the will of the state" by Greek leaders. It sounds like the sort of thing you'd expect from someone who names Karl Marx and Antonio Gramsci as sources of intellectual inspiration—romantic in its impulses, repressive in its implications.

But I don't think Mr. Tsipras is the budding totalitarian or demagogue his detractors say he is. He talks of the "deep sense of injustice" that pervades Greek society, the sense that they have been systematically used and betrayed by their own economic elites and elected officials.

"Why should taxes only be paid by honest low-income citizens while those that have the financial means don't pay taxes at all?" he asks. "Why should we have so much bureaucracy and so much inefficiency within the public sector?"

Those are good questions, and they cut through a lot of the gobbledygook that pervades most discussions of the Greek economy: bond spreads, debt-to-GDP ratio, tier-one capital, and so on. Greece, Mr. Tsipras says, has a "twisted productive base" and wouldn't emerge from the crisis even if all its debts were forgiven tomorrow. "We would just create debts and deficits anew."

As for the bailout plans imposed by outsiders, he notes, accurately, that they benefit nobody. Not the Greek people, who must pay for them in the form of higher taxes. And not Greece's creditors, either: "It is unfair," he says, "to ask German taxpayers to throw their money into the bottomless barrel that is Greek banks."

So what's the alternative? I ask Mr. Tsipras about the Argentine model—devalue the currency and renounce the debt—but he's skeptical. Athens can't rely on a commodity boom the way Buenos Aires did in the last decade, and anyway he wants Greece to keep the euro. Nor does he want Greece to default, though he does advocate something along the model of the London Conference of 1953, which forgave about half of Germany's debts and put the rest on a 30-year repayment schedule. Greece, he says, needs an agenda "to make our tax system more effective, to fight bureaucracy and to fight corruption."

Greeks who know Mr. Tsipras better than I say he has a habit of saying whatever he thinks his audiences want to hear. He wouldn't be the first politician guilty of that. It definitely amused me to meet him in the breakfast room of his hotel, the Helmsley Park Lane on Central Park South. Not exactly the cafeteria of the proletariat.

But scoffers and skeptics should pay attention to Mr. Tsipras all the same. Modern European politics has too often become a kind of collusion between incompetent European Union technocrats and opportunistic national politicians. Here's one guy calling attention to the human misery this combination has wrought. If the "radical" in Syriza means a party capable of thinking for itself and posing the right questions, maybe the right answers won't be far behind.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... lenews_wsj
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Re: Greece

Post by Endovelico »

An interview with a radical, worth reading:
An interview with Alexis Tsipras of Syriza
By Yiannis Babouli - Published 19 March 2013 12:45

In the past few months, Alexis Tsipras, leader of the Greek left-wing movement Syriza and widely tipped as the country's next prime minister, has been on an international tour, trying to build a broad coalition of support for his party's anti-austerity policies - and, perhaps, to convince the world's political elite that a Syriza government is not such a terrifying prospect. Last week was London's turn. The New Statesman caught up with him at the end of a busy schedule of meetings and talks, en route to see Tottenham Hotspur play Fulham.

NS: You’ve just given two lectures in London: one at the LSE, and one at Friends House, a well-known venue for left-wing events. How did you find the audiences?

Tsipras: Both at LSE, where I expected the audience to be a bit colder but it turned out that most were friendly, and at the [Friends House] one organised by Syriza London, the participation was amazing. At the second one I was surprised to see that almost 600 hundred people turned up. And not just Greeks either, many were British.

And I think this means that Syriza is not just a party with interesting positions, but a force that can bring change to the political landscape of Europe – not just for Greece, but for all the people who now need to reclaim their right to a decent society, justice and hope; against those who want to see them subjugated to this austerity that doesn’t just kill wages and pensions, but democracy itself.

Would you say you have political allies in Britain?

I had the opportunity to meet with two teams from the Labour Party: an official one headed by [Jon] Cruddas, the party's head of policy-making, and another one with four to five Labour MPs. I got the impression that the Labour party today is in soul-searching mode, and the debate around austerity is on, so Greece is for them an interesting case study. Bearing in mind that in previous years they followed neoliberal policies, today Labour are deeply troubled about everything that has happened in Greece and especially by the collapse of PASOK [Labour's social-democratic Greek sister party]. They're following the situation closely and I dare say they are one of the few parties so close to power in Europe with whom we share a lot of positions and with whom we can be in constant communication.

So Syriza can find common ground with Labour?

It will depend upon how daring [Ed] Miliband intends to be and especially when it matters most: during the next elections when pressure from the mainstream media and oligarchs in Britain start speaking of the "red dragon" that has come to drive away the City and submerge us in inflation and poverty. Of course this will depend not only on Miliband's endurance but also on the circumstances under which this duel will take place. Because if elections are held in 2015, the two years in between will be apocalyptic as to the effects of neoliberalism in Europe. Britain is already in depression. Nothing is getting better. More and more people in Europe realise that austerity is not a viable prospect. I hope people realise that there is no other way but to radicalise even further.

Do you think there is potential for something similar to Syriza in Britain? A party emerging from outside the mainstream that will oppose austerity?

I can’t really know that. Every country has its own characteristics and in Britain there's a long tradition of a two-party system. If of course Labour wins the next elections and opts to continue along Cameron’s tracks, then it’s almost certain that they will lose every bond with the social classes that support them. The void left there will certainly be filled by something new. That’s the way it works in nature and that’s the way it works in politics.

At your lectures, you spoke of the need for a "European people" in order to find a way out of the crisis. Do you find the conditions are here for this to happen?

I think we are running a grave danger: to focus our thoughts on the Greek people, on the British people, on the Italians, like separate entities. The crisis threatens to drive us backwards, back to the idea of the nation-state, and to the antagonism between those states that will come about as an extension of neoliberalism, with false ideas of competitiveness and so on.

On the other hand, we need to see the actual solution: that in common problems, we need common answers. Europeans have nothing to fight over. This stand-off is not between the British and the French, the Greeks and the Germans. This is between the working class, the unemployed and part of the middle class against predatory capital.

This brings us to something current and highly relevant to what you were saying. What do you think about what’s happening in Cyprus?

I think it’s unbelievable and self-destructive.

I believe that in the next few days panic will spread to the rest of southern Europe. It is a very risky choice they [the troika] have made, and it proves they have no understanding of the objective dangers facing the eurozone. They've chosen to have a Eurozone operating under their rule, with the people subjugated, threatened with blackmail like this. I think the only chance Cyprus has, like other countries, is if the political system rejects this blackmail. If they accept it, then there is no way back. Cyprus's economy will be ruined, its banking system will bleed capital as depositors will fear a second haircut, and this will spread throughout Europe.

On the contrary, if Cyprus resists, and rejects this deal by protecting its banking system, it would send a strong message of trust and credibility to the rest of the southern European countries as well.

One of the first things your opponents in the government said when details of the Cyprus bank levy came up was to claim that one of your own MPs, Manolis Glezos, suggested something similar recently.

Their claims are ridiculous.

They're made, though.

They [the Greek government] can claim anything they want in their PR war. It’s the same team of people that has ruined the country and they can use what they want to attack us.

Of course Manolis [Glezos] never said anything like that. He spoke once about the possibility of a voluntary loan via bonds exchange. His idea has nothing to do with the proposed involuntary haircut imposed on Cypriot deposits.

Those who now govern us under the neoliberal dogma, under the dogma of subjugation, will go for anything, they’ll ask for no one's permission to take measures like that one. They will turn us into Argentina [circa 2001] while at the same time proclaiming that their target is to avoid exactly that. De la Rua [the former Argentine president] was their ideological cousin anyway, and it’s likely a helicopter will carry them away too, when the time comes for the Greek people to reclaim their rights and bring back balance to our society, economy and lives. There’s no other possible outcome.

But your opponents will claim you are no longer that radical, and that you now resemble a centre-left party.

Well, it’s ridiculous that the same people who claim that we aid terrorists, accuse us of becoming more timid at the same time. They just spin it any way they can and hope it catches on.

So are you still radicals or have you become a party of the centre-left?

Syriza is what it is: a radical, left-wing party that feels the pulse of the times, knows what’s at stake and is after a wide consensus and unity for political change in Greece. This is something that departs from the narrow limits of the radical left.

And what of the transformations Syriza is going through? Because there is certainly something changing.

We are going through a process, as democratic as ever, and with the people’s participation it can only get better. We already accomplished much. Last year no one would have thought that Syriza could achieve this. Instead of factions, we are now a solid democratic party, that operates with the same freedom of opinions as it used to. This will lead to the formation of a new shape for us that will come about after our next conference which is taking place soon.

Are you making moves in the European scene as well?

We are looking into the new conditions now forming. Our aim is for an international summit on the re-negotiation and the cancellation of the debt of peripheral European countries. For this, we are open to co-operation with forces outside the European left as well.

So you still claim you'll "tear up the memorandum" and not just repay Greece's lenders at any cost?

Our reasoning is that the memorandum has already failed. It’s a disaster. We’ll put an end to it and replace it when in parliament. We’ll proceed to renegotiate with our lenders with the prospect of a reasonable, viable agreement that won’t just concern Greece, because this is not just a Greek crisis. We’ve seen that the problem is systemic. This means that when negotiations take place it won’t be Greece against the world but rather, the European South against Ms Merkel.

Let's leave Europe for a moment; what about the rest of the world? What came out of your recent tour of South and North America, for instance?

This happened in the context of carrying a message to the outside world: That Greece is going through a humanitarian crisis and that it needs alliances with those powers that realise the danger austerity carries for the entire planet. It’s in their best interests to support Greece, not out of charity, but rather because they understand that this catastrophic tragedy needs to stop. Through these contacts we've had the chance to create such alliances, for today and for tomorrow.

Was something more specific discussed in terms of trade? Cheap oil from Venezuela, maybe?

Well, I don't think there is any point to get into so much detail. What matters is that a number of countries both in South and in North America understand the the Greek program is not working and a government of the left can provide a way out of it not just for Greece but also for Europe. It will give a prospect of balance for the world economy as well, because the real threat right now is the spreading of austerity and depression.

Is the rumour true, then, that the US is positive towards the possibility of Syriza coming to power?

That’s a comment I'd leave for you journalists to make. The point is that the US are following a policy line radically different from that which Angela Merkel follows and enforces throughout Europe. The US have printed money, they intend to tax the rich in order to avoid the fiscal cliff.

These are things that sees anyone who dares to propose them in Greece and Europe, labeled an extremist, when at the same time it's what Obama does. In that sense there are common elements, at least more than in the past, in the applied economic policy. Geopolitics are more complicated than that, I'm afraid.

One subject you seemed to leave out of your talks was immigration, an issue that the far right has exploited to frightening extent. What is Syriza's policy on this?

Immigration is one of the most important issues on our agenda. The European South is an entry point and we need to look into a wider solution. It's unfair for entrance countries to be forced into taking all the weight of the issue. Dublin II [the EU-wide agreement on asylum seekers] strips away the right of immigrants and refugees, to leave the country with proper documentation. They don't want to stay in a country where they can't get a job, but they are forced to.

So we need to examine what kind of Europe we want from now on: Do we want a Europe based on solidarity where hardships are equally distributed? Or do we want a Europe where the south is used as storage space for poor souls and the north lives on comfortably? We are approaching this both on an institutional level, trying to force a treaty change, but also through a humanitarian perspective. We can't treat those people who arrive to our country like second-class citizens.

And especially for those kids who are born in Greece, we say nothing different than what Britain does: they should be able to get Greek citizenship. They take part in Greek education, they speak Greek and they know no other home. We need to see the future in a multicultural Greece, much like the way Britain worked it out, successfully in my opinion.

So, for a last question: how important is your role as the face of Syriza?

Faces and personalities are important sometimes, but it's social conditions that create the context for them to act. I’ve been saying the same things for three to four years. The people accepted the message now, not because I changed it. I believe history will be written by those people, not leaders, despite the role leaders have to play in this.

http://www.newstatesman.com/austerity-a ... ere-no-oth
Simple Minded

Re: Greece

Post by Simple Minded »

Excellent posts Endo. Thanks.

these two sentences are classsic:

He demurs and instead says something about the need to have a "revolution in conscience" by Greek citizens, plus "the will of the state" by Greek leaders. It sounds like the sort of thing you'd expect from someone who names Karl Marx and Antonio Gramsci as sources of intellectual inspiration—romantic in its impulses, repressive in its implications.

timeless problem, how to make people better thru administration.
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Wesley & his Method vs Marx & Gramsci.........

Post by monster_gardener »

Simple Minded wrote:Excellent posts Endo. Thanks.

these two sentences are classsic:

He demurs and instead says something about the need to have a "revolution in conscience" by Greek citizens, plus "the will of the state" by Greek leaders. It sounds like the sort of thing you'd expect from someone who names Karl Marx and Antonio Gramsci as sources of intellectual inspiration—romantic in its impulses, repressive in its implications.

timeless problem, how to make people better thru administration.
Thank You VERY Much for your post, Simple Minded.
timeless problem, how to make people better thru administration.
Seconded..........

But I suspect John Wesley would do much better with his Method ;) than Marx & Gramsci with their methods................

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wesley

Not Perfection ;) ...........

Especially in a World of Depraved Sinful Egotistical Chaos Monkeys like me........... :roll:

But Better................ :)
Last edited by monster_gardener on Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Greece

Post by Endovelico »

Opinion Poll in Greece

Image

If the Democratic Leftists and the idiotic Greek Communist Party joined forces with Syriza, Greece would have a left government capable of starting cleaning the mess.
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Re: Greece

Post by Taboo »

Endovelico wrote:Opinion Poll in Greece

Image

If the Democratic Leftists and the idiotic Greek Communist Party joined forces with Syriza, Greece would have a left government capable of starting cleaning the mess.
Communists and neo-Nazis at almost 50%. What could possibly go wrong?
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Re: Greece

Post by Endovelico »

Taboo wrote:Communists and neo-Nazis at almost 50%. What could possibly go wrong?
Not by my count:

Communists (KKE): 5.5%
Neo-Nazis (Golden Dawn): 11%

Total: 16.5%
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Taboo
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Re: Greece

Post by Taboo »

Endovelico wrote:
Taboo wrote:Communists and neo-Nazis at almost 50%. What could possibly go wrong?
Not by my count:

Communists (KKE): 5.5%
Neo-Nazis (Golden Dawn): 11%

Total: 16.5%
SYRIZA, aka "Coalition of the Radical Left" are moderate centrists, I take it?
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Endovelico
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Re: Greece

Post by Endovelico »

Taboo wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Taboo wrote:Communists and neo-Nazis at almost 50%. What could possibly go wrong?
Not by my count:

Communists (KKE): 5.5%
Neo-Nazis (Golden Dawn): 11%

Total: 16.5%
SYRIZA, aka "Coalition of the Radical Left" are moderate centrists, I take it?
Radical Left and Communist are two very different things. So much so that Greek communists did their utmost to sabotage Syriza's electoral chances, accusing them of being...social-democrats!... Many radical leftists are close to the socialist libertarian ideas, and libertarian socialists are the greatest enemies of marxist-leninists.
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Endovelico
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Re: Greece

Post by Endovelico »

Berlin Owes Greece Billions in WWII Reparations
By Georgios Christidis in Thessaloniki

A top-secret report compiled at the behest of the Finance Ministry in Athens has come to the conclusion that Germany owes Greece billions in World War II reparations. The total could be enough to solve the country's debt problems, but the Greek government is wary of picking a fight with its paymaster.

The headline on Sunday's issue of the Greek newspaper To Vima made it clear what is at stake: "What Germany Owes Us," it read. The article below outlined possible reparations payments Athens might demand from Germany resulting from World War II. A panel of experts, commissioned by the Greek Finance Ministry, spent months working on the report -- an 80-page file classified as "top secret."

Now, though, the first details of the report have been leaked to the public. According to To Vima, the commission arrived at a clear conclusion: "Greece never received any compensation, either for the loans it was forced to provide to Germany or for the damages it suffered during the war."

The research is based on 761 volumes of archival material, including documents, agreements, court decisions and legal texts. Panagiotis Karakousis, who heads the group of experts, told To Vima that the researchers examined 190,000 pages of documents, which had been scattered across public archives, often stored in sacks thrown in the basements of public buildings.

The newspaper offered no concrete figure regarding the possible extent of reparation demands outlined in the report. But earlier calculations from Greek organizations have set the total owed by Germany at €108 billion for reconstruction of the country's destroyed infrastructure and a further €54 billion resulting from forced loans paid by Greece to Nazi Germany between 1942 and 1944. The loans were issued by the Bank of Greece and were used to pay for supplies and wages for the German occupation force.

Bad Time to 'Pick a Fight'

The total sum of €162 billion is the equivalent of almost 80 percent of Greece's current annual gross domestic product. Were Germany to pay the full amount, it would go a long way toward solving the debt problems faced by Athens. Berlin, however, has shown no willingness to revisit the question of reparations to Greece.

Athens too is wary of moving ahead with the demands. The government sees the report as being particularly sensitive due to the fear that it could damage their relations with Europe's most important supplier of euro-crisis aid.

The Greek public, however, has a different view. To Vima reflected the feelings of many by arguing that "the historical responsibility now falls on the three-party coalition government. It should publish all the findings and determine its position on this sensitive issue, which has detonated like a bomb at a time we are under extreme pressure from our lenders."

But political analysts believe that the Greek government is disinclined to raise the issue with Germany. The official government position, most recently expressed by deputy finance minister Christos Staikouras, is that Greece considers the issue open and "reserves the right … to bring it to a satisfactory conclusion."

The report is no longer in the hands of Finance Ministry officials. It was delivered in early March to Foreign Minister Dimitris Avramopoulous and Prime Minister Antonis Samaras. "It will be a top level, political decision regarding how to use it, and Mr. Samaras will be the one to decide," a senior government official told SPIEGEL ONLINE. "This is no time to pick a fight with Berlin."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 93084.html
This could become quite entertaining... But if Greeks want to get paid for the Nazi occupation I suggest they all convert to Judaism. It is well known that Germany can't resist any Israel demand for compensation...
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Endovelico
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Syriza

Post by Endovelico »

Syriza's programmatic goals

(...)

13. Our programmatic processes contribute in the shaping of today’s fronts and at the same time are affected by the new elements that the struggle brings out. In view of this:

13.1. We will cancel the memoranda and the implementing laws. We will implement a program of social and economic recovery, of productive and environmental reconstruction, which will heal the wounds inflicted on the working class and gradually restore the conditions of secure employment and decent living, with the appropriate wages and pensions, creating new jobs. The first step will be the restoration of employment relations, collective bargaining, minimum wages, minimum pension, unemployment benefit, and family allowances to pre-memoranda levels. We will not recognize the government’s anti-constitutional and illegal actions that have recently led to the suspension of thousands of public servants and the abolition of important public services. In our perception of the public sector as a lever of reconstruction, all the employees who have been laid off are necessary and will be hired back.

13.2. We will prevent our country from being turned into a debt colony. We will renegotiate the loan contracts and cancel their onerous terms, conducting an audit. As it was conveyed by our old slogan “no sacrifice for the euro”, SYRIZA’s absolute priority is to prevent humanitarian disaster and meet social needs, and not to submit ourselves to obligations taken on by others mortgaging the country. We commit ourselves to tackle any possible threats and blackmails from the lenders with all the possible means we can mobilize, while we are fully prepared to deal with any possible development, being certain that in any such case the Greek people will support us.

13.3. We will raise a protective shield against humanitarian crisis. There will be no citizen without the necessary for his survival minimum income, without healthcare or social protection, without access to the basic goods of food and decent housing. We commit ourselves that we will allow no confiscation of any main residence due to debt.

13.4. We will cope with deficits in an effective and socially just way, giving priority to redistribution and environmentally safe growth, aiming at gradual increase in wages and social expenditure. We will create a national land registry and an analytical registry of assets in order to restore economic democracy. State revenue will come from the taxation on wealth, net profits, high incomes, large property, and the property of the Church; from cancelling the privileges of the oligarchy and multinational corporations; from halting recession.

13.5. We will create the conditions for the productive and environmental reconstruction of the country by reversing overcentralization (in Attica) and eliminating inequalities between regions and between urban areas and the countryside. Production – specified by sector and industry and taking account of the regional structure of the country – will be based on the public sector, cooperative and self-management units, grassroots companies, social economy ventures, and small and medium-sized businesses – particularly the innovative ones. The funds will be obtained through a new radical as well as just taxation system, as we have already mentioned; through relentlessly combating the sectors of the underground economy that accumulate uncontrolled wealth at the expense of labor; through the environmentally safe use of mineral resources; through increase in production.

13.6. We will cancel the environmentally destructive regulations of the memoranda governments concerning: concession of natural resources (mining rights, beaches, forests, and nature reserves) and of any other public property to the Hellenic Republic Asset Development Fund; fast track procedures that bypass legislation about the environment, land use, or archaeology; legalization of any environmental abuse; the scandalous contracts for waste management.

In contrast to capitalist competition, continuous enlargement and accumulation, we support another organizational model which is based on the balance between human activities and natural resources and which ensures sustainable growth. The ecological transformation of the economy can become a key element in a more just socio-political vision of productive reconstruction that can mobilize large masses of citizens for its specification and implementation.

13.7. In the context of respect for life in all its aspects and for the rights of all living beings, SYRIZA will promote appropriate legislation to protect animals and their habitats, to ban animal abuse and unacceptable living conditions.

13.8. We will set the banking system under public ownership and control, through the radical conversion of its functioning and the aims it is serving today, through the upgrade of the workers and the customers’ role. We will found special purpose public banks focusing on agricultural credit, small and medium-sized businesses, and public housing.

13.9. We will cancel the planned privatizations and the looting of the public wealth, restore public control on – but at the same time reconstruct fully – strategically important enterprises that have been privatized or are under privatization, so as to form a powerful, productive, efficient, and open to cooperation public sector of a new type.

As regards the contracts for the concession of national roads, SYRIZA proposes and will claim a radical redefinition of the strategy for the national road network according to social needs. Namely: renegotiating contracts and claiming from concessionaires the money they owe to the state. We will also set up a public actor under social control in order to continue the works of expansion, improvement, and maintenance of the road network.

13.10. We promote policies of restructuring, modernizing, and reconstructing very small (mostly self-employed) and medium-sized businesses with employees participating in them so that these businesses will contribute to the productive reconstruction of the country and to tackling the explosive problem of unemployment.

13.11. We promote a new alternative model of tourism development with social value, which will respond to the needs of workers, small and medium-sized tourism businesses, and local societies, will protect our tourism resources (natural, social, cultural), and will highlight our national heritage and the distinctive environmental identity of our country. We will support sector policies for tourism, recovery of public control over development tools, extension of the tourist season on an all-year-round basis, quality mass tourism in combination with alternative forms of environmentally-friendly tourism, and disengagement from big tour operators. We aim at the functional synergy between tourism and other industries with the objective of a holistic national strategy for tourism. The structure of the national tourism organization will be regulated in the context of these policies.

13.12. For SYRIZA it is essential to ensure food sufficiency/food sovereignty. That is why we promote a new radical agricultural policy, part of which is the redistribution of farmland (public, large private, or belonging to the Church). We aim at price reductions in raw materials and at a move towards the production of branded certified products. We support integrated administration and organic farming. We seek to secure employment and a stable satisfactory income for family farming units and medium-sized farmers, especially young ones. We aim at a fundamental reconstruction of the cooperative system and cooperative organizations, the trade unions of the farmers and other collective forms of agricultural activity, with the active participation of those directly involved and through democratic procedures.

We ask for a European agricultural policy that guarantees access to healthy food at stable and fair prices and environmentally sustainable forms of production. This means a radical revision of CAP [Common Agricultural Policy] with an increase in the budget for quality farming, redistribution of funds in favor of small and medium-sized farmers and Mediterranean products, prices above production cost, relating aids to production and product quality, supporting mountain and island areas, and totally banning all Genetically Modified Organisms. Our aim is that the international trade in agricultural products should be laid on new foundations, under the supervision of the UN and not of the WTO, giving priority to local and regional production, to control over multinationals and dumping policies, and to the promotion of sustainable development and equal collaboration between countries.

13.13. We will restore and strengthen the welfare state and promote the democratization of all its activities and functions: protection of employment, the jobless, healthcare, social welfare, education, and social insurance. The social insurance system, which is now collapsing, calls for a huge regenerative effort based on aiding employment, combating social insurance contribution evasion, and increasing the number of insured employees, with universality, solidarity, and the state guaranteeing its public/social character and the three-part funding.

13.14. We will ensure the functioning of public hospitals, primary healthcare structures (health centers, EOPYY [National Health Organization] health units, mental health structures, prevention and rehabilitation centers). Furthermore, we will retain and develop a public health system and top quality social welfare structures accessible to everybody both in the center and in the periphery of Greece. We guarantee the efficient operation and reorganization of public healthcare and free access to it for all residents – Greek or foreign – regardless of their employment or insurance status. It is a top priority for SYRIZA that the uninsured population is fully covered in terms of healthcare and medicine – with no contribution for chronic disease patients and patients under the poverty line.

13.15. We will take immediate precaution measures against high prices, controlling prices at the source where the cost of goods and services is determined, with parallel measures against monopolies and oligopolies in the market and with the establishment of a genuine price index that will reflect the real price increases in staples. We will be implementing particularly stringent checks on mineral oil products.

13.16. We will repeal all regulatory legislation and emergency state structures, all the authoritarian and repressive laws, and we will fundamentally reorganize the political system, eliminating any source of corruption and vested interests, observing the principles of the separation of powers and the separation of church and state, and restoring the orderly and transparent functioning of all the relevant institutions. We will upgrade the democratic structure and operation of the representational institutions, both at the level of the central government and at that of local authorities, enacting simple proportional representation and introducing forms of direct democracy. Finally, we advocate and promote the establishment of a new local government charter to replace Kallikratis, the democratic revision of the Constitution based on the principle of subsidiarity, and the relevant refounding of the state.

13.17. We will bring back and upgrade the whole institutional framework that regulated employment relations and the framework of collective bargaining. Free collective bargaining, protection against dismissals, the upgrade of control mechanisms, the elimination of undeclared and precarious work, the strengthening of the labor unions’ role, and the free and unhindered exercise of union activity are the pillars of our policy and of the production process itself. We need and we will do everything we can to reorganize an autonomous mass class labor union movement, inspired by the values and principles of the Left: liberty, equality, solidarity, transparency, and democracy. It is our nonnegotiable aim to promote democracy in the workplace, establish institutions of labor and social control independent from the labor movement, but which will include representatives of the workers, elected and recalled by them.

13.18. We will radically change the way public services and local authorities operate, establishing democracy, decentralization, transparency, and meritocracy, regardless of ideology or political opinion; relentlessly cracking down on corruption, vested interests, partisanship and bribery. We will introduce the concept and practice of democratic planning and social control on all levels of central and local government. We will reassess the administrative structure on regional and municipal level and ensure that regions and municipalities will get the necessary funds to exercise their social role and contribute to the economy’s growth. We will also establish permanence and stable employment relations.

13.19. For SYRIZA, culture constitutes both intellectual and material wealth – from antiquity to contemporary cultural production. It is a public good and a key factor in development and creation. The social and productive reconstruction of the country is interwoven with its cultural revival. Culture is the language, the letters and the arts, national heritage, education, the customs and traditions, and other elements of daily life; but it is also the employment relations, the forms of social communication, public space, and in general the various aspects of social community and production. We support scientific research, the letters and the arts, the preservation and promotion of our national heritage, all forms of civilization, reforming existing institutions and setting up new ones, adequately funded. SYRIZA will ensure access to cultural goods for everybody, with special emphasis on combating “cultural poverty” and the exclusion of poor and marginalized social groups from creating and enjoying cultural products. It will also support and encourage amateur cultural creation and mass sports, combating commercialization, small-time sports politics, high-level sport competition and all their negative consequences. We will contribute to the reconnection of sports organizations with the democratic movement in education, health, culture, and ecology.

13.20. Public education is a nonnegotiable universal social good that should be provided free for all the people living in the country and at all its levels, from crèches to post-graduate schools. Private education is a disorder that will be eliminated through the upgrade and substantialization of public education. The education system will not be based on exams, but it will be converted to a system that will provide knowledge as well as its critical examination, with free access to all its levels and structural link between universities and research centers. The education system will cultivate freedom of religion, critical knowledge, collective action, and solidarity. It will be opposed to any militarist spirit, racist attitudes, and phenomena of exclusion and discrimination. It will guarantee the democratic functioning of school units – with equal participation of teachers and students – as well as the unhindered work and permanent employment of teachers. The education system will strengthen the administrative autonomy and the academic nature of universities, and guarantee university asylum.

13.21. We combat racist and homophobic violence, all discriminations based on racial or national origin, religion, color of the skin, disability, age, sexual orientation or gender identity, which are endemic in many aspects of social life and we guarantee the change of the legislative framework that legalizes, directly or indirectly, such discriminations. In this context, we fully support the right to self-determination in terms of sexual orientation and gender choice, homosexual civil marriage with full and equal rights, and recognition of gender identity.

13.22. SYRIZA is committed to promote gender equality and the demands of women, who are more severely affected by the memoranda policies. In view of this, it will update and complete the relevant legislation and will insist on its implementation, with women taking part in decision-making centers, and will make sure that these laws are actually enforced by the authorities and courts, in cases where these rights are violated. In order to deal with rising violence against women (state, domestic, sexual harassment, rape), SYRIZA will launch campaigns to raise awareness in education and the media, and will set up support units (shelters, etc) for women who fall victim to gender violence.

13.23. We treat the immigration issue in all its complexity and in all its dimensions (humanitarian, class, international). The large migration flows are a result of the neoliberal, capitalist globalization that uproots people from their hearths, either because it makes them victims of war or because it deprives them of the basic means of survival. Economic and political migrants or refugees are today’s “damned of the Earth”. The situation in Manolada, and not only there, certifies this. The European migration policy has to change immediately, with main criteria the European shared responsibility, the reception capacity of each country, and the prevention of underpaid work and exploitation of migrant workers. The Dublin II Regulation and the European Pact on Immigration and Asylum must be cancelled so that refugees or immigrants will be free to go to another country if they do not wish to stay here. Furthermore, it is necessary to humanize the institutional framework for legalization, for asylum granting, and for giving travel documents to immigrants and refugees. Residence permits and work permits that were taken away due to de-legalization procedures followed these last years must be given back to refugees and immigrants. It is essential that there is a new legalization process for immigrants with “no papers” who have been working in Greece for years. Immigrants who are working must be treated equally and fairly and Greek citizenship should be immediately given to children who are born in Greece. We will close down today’s inhumane detention centers and set up open centers where immigrants will be able to live with dignity.

13.24. Social peace and security require justice and reduction of disparities. Mass poverty and misery lead to the violence of survival. Our plan for social reconstruction will result immediately in a drop in crime rate. The elimination of major organized crime, drug trafficking and arms trade, prostitution and human trafficking, slave labor, excessively high rents, should all be targeted by public services and security forces, fundamentally reoriented and democratically trained.

13.25. We highlight the need for and demand the reversal of the current form of the European integration process, the reversal of the Euro zone architecture and the neoliberal concept which the common currency has been based on, so as to re-found the European project in the direction of democratic construction and functioning, social justice, and socialism. Through the European Left Party, our action in the European Parliament and all the European and international forums, we cooperate with other Left forces and build up warm comrade relations with political forces and social movements in various countries in Europe that we share the same ideas and practices with.

13.26. SYRIZA will continue to claim war reparations from Germany, repayment of the loan extracted during the German occupation, and the return of the archaeological treasures, as a minimum debt of honor to the thousands of fighters of the Greek Resistance, who paid a heavy toll of blood in the first line of the antifascist war for the liberation of our country and the whole Europe.

13.27. We give new significance, both practically and theoretically, to the concepts of “national” and “patriotic”, connecting them with what is genuinely “popular”. Nationalism and “patridokapilia” [use of patriotism for one’s own ends] are in constant conflict with the democratic-internationalist patriotism of the popular classes and the Left. We will resolve the open issues of foreign policy, defense and security of the country and its residents based on the rules of international law and the principle of the peaceful settlement of disputes.

13.28. We promote integration into the international scene through an independent, multidimensional, and peaceful foreign policy founded on equal cooperation, national independence, and protection of our country’s national-territorial integrity. Greece is not only a European country but also a Balkan and a Mediterranean country, in close vicinity to sources of permanent tension in the Middle East. This complex reality spells danger but also offers opportunities. Bonds of friendship and good-neighborly relations with all countries on the basis of respect for the borders and sovereign rights, and cordial relations with progressive movements and progressive governments all over the world can be a protective shield against the extremely precarious international situation, but also an opportunity for peaceful active intervention in cases of international tension and conflict. The guidelines of our foreign policy are: support on the Republic of Cyprus for the settlement of the Cypriot problem, respect for international conventions and relevant UN resolutions, withdrawal from NATO, closure of all foreign military bases, termination of military cooperation with Israel, which may breed danger of military involvement of Greece in the Middle East conflicts, and the application of the principle “no Greek soldier at war fronts outside Greece’s border”. The struggle for peace and nuclear disarmament is of top priority for SYRIZA and it is closely related to the struggle for democracy.

13.29. We will institutionalize rules of democratic regulation and social control over the media. Radio/television frequencies are a public good and belong to society as a whole. Licenses will be examined from scratch, will be granted for a limited term, and will be linked to the respect of labor rights. The licenses will be renewed or recalled by the National Broadcasting Council. We will also upgrade the public media, shaping a democratic environment in public life, ensuring the expression of society without today’s predominance of manipulation mechanisms, and giving emphasis to its potential of becoming a producer of information and not just a consumer of views on information and culture produced by commercial and business interests.

(...)

http://www.zcommunications.org/greece-p ... -by-syriza
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Endovelico
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Re: Greece

Post by Endovelico »

Greece On The Verge? Military Special Forces Have 15 Demands... Or Else
Submitted by Tyler Durden on 09/26/2013 19:48 -0400

Greek government authorities are on alert after a union of Greek army reservists of Special Forces issued a statement urging the Greek administration to step down and make way for a national unity government. As Keep Talking Greece notes, the statement on the union' website included 15 demands - including the resignation of the Greek President - and urged people to gather at the infamous Syntagma Square on Saturday. The statement was interpreted by some as a call to a "coup d'etat" - denied by the union - but prompted Greece's Supreme Court to meet to discuss it.

The 15 Demands...

The announcement of reservists as posted on the website keed-hellas.blogspot.com

"OUR PRIMARY PURPOSE DEFENSE OF OUR COUNTRY.

Reservists Special Forces and the Greek people to implementation of Article 120 of the Constitution requires:

1. IMMEDIATE RESIGNATION OF GOVERNMENT of the impossibility of providing the people as provided in the Constitution at Work (Article 22), health, education, justice, security.

Two. ESTABLISHING A NATIONAL GOVERNMENT PLANS chaired by Supreme Court of personalities on proven outside politics and consultants from the Academy of Athens.

Three. SUSPENSION OF APPLICATION NOTICE MNIMONIAKON laws and within two months, with a ban on participation of all citizens who participated in the governments responsible for the current economic situation.

4. EXAMINING BOARD of the supreme court and accountability for the HOW and WHO led us to Catastrophic Agreement Memorandum. Establishment of Constitutional Court Effective power impose its will.

5. Immediate suspension of dismissal from the State.

6. SUSPENSION further TAX for Family Income up to 25.000 €.

7. SUSPENSION auctions and bank claims until the Completion Audit of Banks of Certified Public Accountants and accountability.

8. Complaint EPACHTHOUS DEBT.

9. PROHIBITION OF SALE PUBLIC PROPERTY, Resume Defence Industries.

10. DIRECT confiscation German (Retail / Business / Office) FULL COMPENSATION until the Greek government for war reparations and occupation loan.

11. BREAK THE LAW ON LIABILITY minister and VOULEFTIKIS ASYLIAS. Regardless of all "THE GREEKS ARE EQUAL BEFORE THE LAW" (Article 4).

12. CONTROL assets of those involved in economic positions of government, prosecute illicit enrichment and Efficiency to the State.

13. OPERATIONAL CONTROL - LICENSING LEGALITY broadcasters and immediate return to the Greek government debts.

14. Protection from Hostile Elongation at AEGEAN, Macedonia, Epirus, Thrace and Cyprus, while suppressing the various groups that see inside.

15. REMOVE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS with a similar promotion in European countries and the server. EXPORT BAN MONEY Over 20% of the taxable income of such.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-09-2 ... ds-or-else
This looks like a Google translation, but the overall meaning seems to be clear.
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Re: Greece

Post by Azrael »

Oh wow! A military coup!

I think it's a hoax. Another military coup in Greece is something I'd have to see on TV to believe.

Then again, we merkins tend to be pretty insular.
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Re: Greece

Post by Azrael »

Endovelico wrote:
Berlin Owes Greece Billions in WWII Reparations
By Georgios Christidis in Thessaloniki

A top-secret report compiled at the behest of the Finance Ministry in Athens has come to the conclusion that Germany owes Greece billions in World War II reparations. The total could be enough to solve the country's debt problems, but the Greek government is wary of picking a fight with its paymaster.

The headline on Sunday's issue of the Greek newspaper To Vima made it clear what is at stake: "What Germany Owes Us," it read. The article below outlined possible reparations payments Athens might demand from Germany resulting from World War II. A panel of experts, commissioned by the Greek Finance Ministry, spent months working on the report -- an 80-page file classified as "top secret."

Now, though, the first details of the report have been leaked to the public. According to To Vima, the commission arrived at a clear conclusion: "Greece never received any compensation, either for the loans it was forced to provide to Germany or for the damages it suffered during the war."

The research is based on 761 volumes of archival material, including documents, agreements, court decisions and legal texts. Panagiotis Karakousis, who heads the group of experts, told To Vima that the researchers examined 190,000 pages of documents, which had been scattered across public archives, often stored in sacks thrown in the basements of public buildings.

The newspaper offered no concrete figure regarding the possible extent of reparation demands outlined in the report. But earlier calculations from Greek organizations have set the total owed by Germany at €108 billion for reconstruction of the country's destroyed infrastructure and a further €54 billion resulting from forced loans paid by Greece to Nazi Germany between 1942 and 1944. The loans were issued by the Bank of Greece and were used to pay for supplies and wages for the German occupation force.

Bad Time to 'Pick a Fight'

The total sum of €162 billion is the equivalent of almost 80 percent of Greece's current annual gross domestic product. Were Germany to pay the full amount, it would go a long way toward solving the debt problems faced by Athens. Berlin, however, has shown no willingness to revisit the question of reparations to Greece.

Athens too is wary of moving ahead with the demands. The government sees the report as being particularly sensitive due to the fear that it could damage their relations with Europe's most important supplier of euro-crisis aid.

The Greek public, however, has a different view. To Vima reflected the feelings of many by arguing that "the historical responsibility now falls on the three-party coalition government. It should publish all the findings and determine its position on this sensitive issue, which has detonated like a bomb at a time we are under extreme pressure from our lenders."

But political analysts believe that the Greek government is disinclined to raise the issue with Germany. The official government position, most recently expressed by deputy finance minister Christos Staikouras, is that Greece considers the issue open and "reserves the right … to bring it to a satisfactory conclusion."

The report is no longer in the hands of Finance Ministry officials. It was delivered in early March to Foreign Minister Dimitris Avramopoulous and Prime Minister Antonis Samaras. "It will be a top level, political decision regarding how to use it, and Mr. Samaras will be the one to decide," a senior government official told SPIEGEL ONLINE. "This is no time to pick a fight with Berlin."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 93084.html
This could become quite entertaining... But if Greeks want to get paid for the Nazi occupation I suggest they all convert to Judaism. It is well known that Germany can't resist any Israel demand for compensation...
:lol:

Very funny!

Well . . . .

Actually . . . it's a pretty good idea. They should give it serious consideration.
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Endovelico
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Capitalism at its best...

Post by Endovelico »

Near-destitute woman unable to buy €1.20 bus ticket now told to pay €720 penalty

A woman who was caught earlier this year travelling on an Athens bus without the required €1.20 ticket and who was unable to pay the €72 fine has been told she is now liable for a €720 penalty at her local tax office, in a move that has been described as a "gratuitous blow" by the country's most prominent voluntary health clinic.

The 31-year-old woman, who is long-term unemployed and, as a result, has no income or social insurance, shares a home with her 53-year-old mother, who lives with a severe disability. The two women still have a roof over their head thanks to the understanding of their landlord – they owe rent since April – and from the meagre help they receive from relatives.

The pair receive their medical care from the Metropolitan Community Clinic in Elliniko, a voluntary health intiative that provides free treatment to thousands of people like the women shut out from free state healthcare.

In April, the daughter boarded a bus without the required €1.20 ticket and was controlled by a ticket inspector, who issued her with a €72 fine, even though she pleaded with him that she was unable to pay due to her many years of unemployment.

The woman then wrote to road transport operator OSY, providing documentation proving her status and describing her dire economic situation.

On 17 September, OSY replied, informing the woman that if she didn't transfer the money within 20 days, they would have to notify the tax office, which mean the fine would increase to €720.

The woman was unable to pay and the deadline has passed.

"In other words, the state activates its entire mechanism for an amount that it will never recover and which is a gratuitous blow to these two women who are mentally and physically in misery and who basically need our social awareness and support," the Metropolitan Community Clinic said in a statement.

It added that its attempts to speak to someone at OSY have gone unanswered.

http://www.enetenglish.gr/?i=news.en.home&id=1520
When will the shooting start?...
noddy
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Re: Greece

Post by noddy »

careful now endo thats loony right wing thinking.

we are all in this together and the socialised system must be contributed to by all, she is an exploiter and thief who puts precious government workers wages at risk.
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Re: Greece

Post by Ibrahim »

I heard the arrested some Golden Dawn leaders last week. Be interesting to see how that plays out, given the alleged level of support for GD among law enforcement and the judiciary. Greece has to be closer to possible civil war than any country in Europe.
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Re: Greece

Post by noddy »

the cliche about making things more relevant than they should be by martyring them exists for a reason.

i think it was a mistake to give the golden dawn this kind of attention, far better to work around them and thusly keep them marginalised than do panic reactions that give them status.
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Ibrahim
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Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:06 am

Re: Greece

Post by Ibrahim »

noddy wrote:the cliche about making things more relevant than they should be by martyring them exists for a reason.

i think it was a mistake to give the golden dawn this kind of attention, far better to work around them and thusly keep them marginalised than do panic reactions that give them status.
I see what you're saying about manufacturing martyrs, but the GD were worming their way into a number of major public institutions, so it would be hard to avoid them or marginalize them. Plus, economic hardship (self-inflicted or no) is going to benefit extreme political parties.
noddy
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Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:09 pm

Re: Greece

Post by noddy »

Ibrahim wrote:
noddy wrote:the cliche about making things more relevant than they should be by martyring them exists for a reason.

i think it was a mistake to give the golden dawn this kind of attention, far better to work around them and thusly keep them marginalised than do panic reactions that give them status.
I see what you're saying about manufacturing martyrs, but the GD were worming their way into a number of major public institutions, so it would be hard to avoid them or marginalize them. Plus, economic hardship (self-inflicted or no) is going to benefit extreme political parties.
if they have a real base and are getting real votes then shooting the messenger aint going to change the message, we are getting into muslim brotherhood territory here ;)

their are no easy answers or quick solutions to the rise in haters, you just got todo the long term work of integrating them or go hard and kill em all - i doubt most people have the stomach for the later, which leaves only the former as viable imho.
ultracrepidarian
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Endovelico
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Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: Greece

Post by Endovelico »

noddy wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
noddy wrote:the cliche about making things more relevant than they should be by martyring them exists for a reason.

i think it was a mistake to give the golden dawn this kind of attention, far better to work around them and thusly keep them marginalised than do panic reactions that give them status.
I see what you're saying about manufacturing martyrs, but the GD were worming their way into a number of major public institutions, so it would be hard to avoid them or marginalize them. Plus, economic hardship (self-inflicted or no) is going to benefit extreme political parties.
if they have a real base and are getting real votes then shooting the messenger aint going to change the message, we are getting into muslim brotherhood territory here ;)

their are no easy answers or quick solutions to the rise in haters, you just got todo the long term work of integrating them or go hard and kill em all - i doubt most people have the stomach for the later, which leaves only the former as viable imho.
With fascists - just as with any authoritarian stream - you just have to cut the snake's head for the snake to die. You may get other similar snakes later, but not immediately. I say: chop GD's head and you will have a couple of years to make them irrelevant.
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Alexis
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Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:47 pm

Re: Greece

Post by Alexis »

Endovelico wrote:
noddy wrote:their are no easy answers or quick solutions to the rise in haters, you just got todo the long term work of integrating them or go hard and kill em all - i doubt most people have the stomach for the later, which leaves only the former as viable imho.
With fascists - just as with any authoritarian stream - you just have to cut the snake's head for the snake to die. You may get other similar snakes later, but not immediately. I say: chop GD's head and you will have a couple of years to make them irrelevant.
Prohibition of such a political party is an extreme decision, which certainly is better than letting them to power, but cannot be more than the very last line of defense.

To say the same thing another way: if an anti-democratic party is on the verge of power, it means it has the majority of people behind it, or close to the majority. Therefore, prohibiting it will trigger a civil war. That civil war may be the best option in such a situation, but you certainly cannot rely on it as only protection!

As things stand, GD is very far from being close to majority. There is time before GD makes too much progress :
- for Greek leaders to do what is necessary to get their country out of Brussel's clutches
- for Greece to undergo the peak of crisis that would ensue
- and for Greek economy to begin recovering, and sufferings of the population to begin alleviating

Of course, Greek politicians would first need to:
1) Put their heart in the right place, and the interest of Greece paramount
2) Get themselves a spine

These two points are the source of the problem... the rise of Golden Dawn is but one of their consequences...
noddy
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Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:09 pm

Re: Greece

Post by noddy »

Alexis wrote: 1) Put their heart in the right place, and the interest of Greece paramount
2) Get themselves a spine
deary me, what a pessimistic position ;)
ultracrepidarian
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