Greece

[noddy]

claim belgium as part of greater dutchieland thusly taking control of the EU and then offload the southerners.

worst case you get some nice beer.

Belgium beer is dangerously good... a liability in the project.

i have donated more to the trappists than any other charity, including me

We are very much looking forward to being offloaded by the "barbarians"... Of course we may then become a bit isolated, as we will not be able to count on anyone but the Mediterranean countries (north and south), Russia, China, Iran, Latin America and Africa...

its win,win.

tho last i heard portugal had got over the hump and was in the good books with the vampire squids of banking, so you might get left out of the broke and offloaded bit.

[Parodite]

May the flux be with you!

I assume this is all "dog whistle code speak" and part of your plan to continue oppressing the people of Southern & Eastern Europe.

Keeping your wooden shoe on their throats so to speak.......

To keep my wooden shoes on their throat is not a wise thing to do they since they love to eat wood and keep crying for more.

As a fun fact: per Dutch citizen 1200,- euros is "invested" in Greece which in all likelyhood will never be payed back. As a 5p family we thusly fed Greece with 6000,- euros never to be repayed. I'm fine with that, they can keep it. But I don't like the idea of EU banksters giving more without my consent. The Greek want democracy.. so do I.

Of this 6000,- arouind 5000,- is used to bail out other banksters... where have we seen this before. Only 1000,- went into real "investments in the Greek economy". But this is very doubtful. Most likely it went to some Greek politicians pay roll.

[Parodite]

claim belgium as part of greater dutchieland thusly taking control of the EU and then offload the southerners.

worst case you get some nice beer.

Belgium beer is dangerously good... a liability in the project.

i have donated more to the trappists than any other charity, including me

Cheers on that!

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

The problem with all of these schemes...err, well thought out political movements....is that popular sovereignty (or maybe sovereignty in general) and universal human rights are incompatible concepts. Calls for direct (more direct) democracy will get very very ugly once people start realizing they can actually vote for all those ruddy thoughts that go through their heads. Now, if you stomach that, more power to you- Lord knows our juggling act right now is not Barnum and Bailey quality- but the panacea is only going to kick in after a few punches to the gut; maybe undeserved punches at that.

[Parodite]

Nap, direct democracy doesn't mean a referendum on every little detail or issue. It can be on blocks of issues to vote on in pre-election time. Seperate votes on foreign policy, social security, education etc.. Now you have to vote for political parties who have all those issues lumped together into one political program. Reality is that more and more people feel their favored ideas are spread over different parties.

When the votes are thusly cast on different blocks/issues during election time, and independent organisation like the SER we have here.. can calculate the overall socio-econimic consequences and give advice/feedback on political programs.

[Simple Minded]

May the flux be with you!

I assume this is all "dog whistle code speak" and part of your plan to continue oppressing the people of Southern & Eastern Europe.

Keeping your wooden shoe on their throats so to speak.......

To keep my wooden shoes on their throat is not a wise thing to do they since they love to eat wood and keep crying for more.

As a fun fact: per Dutch citizen 1200,- euros is "invested" in Greece which in all likelyhood will never be payed back. As a 5p family we thusly fed Greece with 6000,- euros never to be repayed. I'm fine with that, they can keep it. But I don't like the idea of EU banksters giving more without my consent. The Greek want democracy.. so do I.

Of this 6000,- arouind 5000,- is used to bail out other banksters... where have we seen this before. Only 1000,- went into real "investments in the Greek economy". But this is very doubtful. Most likely it went to some Greek politicians pay roll.

those numbers would not surprise me. In my above example, when I assumed govt was 50% efficient, I was just trying to keep the math simple.

Using your estimate of an efficiency of 16.6%:

if 10% can receive $500 a month, then each of the 90% must pay $333 per month. If we want to be moral, and only charge the 60% who think this plan is a good idea, and not oppress the other 30%, then each of the 60% must pay $500 a month.

Hmmmmmmm....... just a little thought, and gets obvious, why involuntary compassion requires weapons to implement, and why the crusaders of compassion are so reluctant to discuss details or costs......

The same situation exists in the US. The "crusaders of compassion" make out like bandits.

They have long term vested interests (paychecks/careers/celebrity), in not eradicating problems, but merely making those with problems more comfortable & stable in their current state. Win-win in their view.

[Parodite]

SM.. you don't seem like democracy? In a democracy nobody gets it all the way they want it. What is the alternative? Just being philosophical about everything?

[Simple Minded]

SM.. you don't seem like democracy? In a democracy nobody gets it all the way they want it. What is the alternative? Just being philosophical about everything?

As you noted Bro, it is all flux that will be endlessly debated, and subject to constant mutation. Consider me one of the contributing mutants trying to add diversity to the conversation.....

A variant of the old quote "Be careful what you wish for!" that is often used in the manufacturing world: "when you want it bad.... yer gonna git it bad!"

If you spent less time trying to soothe my low self-esteem, and more time rallying the northern yurps to help the southern yurps, then they wouldn't complain so much........ right?

Its not that they don't like what you are doing to them, they just want you to do more of it.....

Sometimes in one's blind eagerness to find a teat to suck on..... one ends up sucking on something other than a teat.

Who is to blame, the sucker or the suckee?

How do you say "hey this don't taste like my Mama's milk in Greek!!!"

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

Nap, direct democracy doesn't mean a referendum on every little detail or issue. It can be on blocks of issues to vote on in pre-election time. Seperate votes on foreign policy, social security, education etc.. Now you have to vote for political parties who have all those issues lumped together into one political program. Reality is that more and more people feel their favored ideas are spread over different parties.

When the votes are thusly cast on different blocks/issues during election time, and independent organisation like the SER we have here.. can calculate the overall socio-econimic consequences and give advice/feedback on political programs.

No, it would not be every little detail or issue. Practically, concretely, capable and sober people should be able to make it run fine for a very long time. I didn't even have the petty in mind when I wrote that. I'm not trying to knock the idea, it may be the way to go; certainly amenable to it. But what does it say about where we are at? And how does it hold up sovereignty (state sovereignty in particular) and universal human rights? An independent board of advisers, no matter it's good intentions or upstanding members, is still a particular, alienating group representing only itself in the name of the people. Or are we supposed to belief an advisory board designed to manufacture consent will always remain neutral? What happens when the people, by popular vote, want to deport all left-handed people within the borders? How long does that stay off the block of issues and by what reasoning?

To say those sorts of things just won't come up is as reassuring as suggesting that one can remain half-pregnant, easy peasy.

[Parodite]

Of interest is the section About the SER, see esp its Members for starters.

Mea culpa I was actually confusing SER with the CPB. See About CPB.

More Direct Democracy for the Netherlands in my view would not and doesn't need to be referenda on every random corner at all. The existing political multi-party structure can stay in tact. What would change?

The various big topics that those parties have in their party programs (that in the government have representatives in a Ministry with a Minister of economics, social security, defence and foreign policy, education, healthcare.. etc) are voted on separately. Those parties can form coalitions during elections with other parties on joined programs. So as a political party you can join one or more political parties on education and social security, but are lethal enemies on foreign policy where you put up different programs to vote on.

So you don't vote anymore on a political party, but on separate programs on education, defence, economy.. etc.

[Parodite]

SM..you scepticon! Please jump om board ! "We" need more of "you" even if no practical idea ever comes out of you.. just to make sure "we" never take "ourselves" too seriously! Especially in politics this matters more than anywhere else.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

So what does all this navel-gazing have to do with Greece?

The fragility of the Greek situation, beyond it's practical, immediate troubles (for our European friends here first, and the world financial situation in general) is fissure for all sorts of angst to travel through right now. While it may be misplaced, it is this certitude beyond discursive reasoning that something is really changing and we are caught up in an intemediary period.

[Parodite]

I suppose the situation with Greece inspires us to rethink loads of frightful stuff.

I'll transplant the discussion to elsewhere where it belongs.

[Endovelico]

tho last i heard portugal had got over the hump and was in the good books with the vampire squids of banking, so you might get left out of the broke and offloaded bit.

Don't you believe it! At the present rates of interest Portugal will keep having to borrow more money just to pay the interest... Slowly we are going down the same road as Greece... The difference is that if we want to default we may get away with it, as our trade is just about balanced: we will be able to pay imports with the receipts from our exports so there is little creditors could do to force us to toe the line...

[Simple Minded]

SM..you scepticon! Please jump om board ! "We" need more of "you" even if no practical idea ever comes out of you.. just to make sure "we" never take "ourselves" too seriously! Especially in politics this matters more than anywhere else.

I'll try Bro, but it is tough to over come years of experience, education in physics, mastery of basic arithmetic, observing human nature, experience deducing cause and effect, etc.

Engineers get paid to remind people that a 1/2" bolt won't fit in a 3/8" hole, nothing is free, everything takes time, entropy is not your friend, the laws of physics & economics don't care much about your feelings, 9 women can't make a baby in a month, and that the money Robin Hood is giving you does not belong to him.

For the life of me, I don't ever recall reading a post at OTNOT, where anyone proposed a "practical idea" (did you know that the definition of practical is dependent upon what one wishes to practice?) that included supporting data. ie: cost benefit analysis, including who pays and who benefits, sustainable lifespan, hidden costs, perverse incentives, unintended consequences, etc.

I thought us OTNOT'ers were just intellectual, idealistic, gods hovering in clouds, responsible for big picture plans, not caring about costs, side effects, or whose egg we have to break to make our imaginary omelets.

Now that I know I am expected to be "practical" (?) we are going to have to define a boat load of terms before we can even begin writing the technical specifications.............. Trust me, this is the painful part. Once the problem is defined, it usually solves itself. But, getting humans to agree on definitions.....

No matter, I shall always be there for you Bro!

[Parodite]

SM.. I know I know..but don't you think that it is a given that all human societies through history display a certain mechanics in how they organize their society, allow tittie suck for some and deny it to others, have an "us" and a "them" configuration one way or other albeit changing over time.. but the fact is it always there? You can philosofarce about it as long as you want with mutually annihilating fun rhetorics, but it seems you lost sight of the mechanics despite being exposed to physics et-all for all your life.

Politics, as I see it, is always part of any society i.e. where n>1. I'm sure you recognize it in your own family. You want this, your wife wants that, your kids want something different or nothing at all..money issue, discussion, consensus, compromise or just the hammer of an adult alpha male/female. I'm always fascinated by the mechanics of it. To pretend it isn't there or shouldn't be there is an illusion.

[Simple Minded]

Parodite,

My only definition of "practical solution" is each voluntarily donating their own time and money to solving the problems they experience in their own communities. Will a perfect society result, nope. Will Fred be busy enough putting out the fires that burn closest to his own home, that he has little time for setting fires elsewhere, perhaps!

Once one gets into the business of group or individual "A," subjugating group or individual "B," to help group or individual "C," for the greater good of "society," as you have noted it is endless debate and evaluation. How to convince Fred to take one for the team, huh, what whose team?

Majorities, minorities, costs, distribution, details, details, details.........

fair, good, help, oppress are all vey subjective/relative terms.

continual mutation seems like the dominant process.

[Simple Minded]

SM.. I know I know..but don't you think that it is a given that all human societies through history display a certain mechanics in how they organize their society, allow tittie suck for some and deny it to others, have an "us" and a "them" configuration one way or other albeit changing over time.. but the fact is it always there? You can philosofarce about it as long as you want with mutually annihilating fun rhetorics, but it seems you lost sight of the mechanics despite being exposed to physics et-all for all your life.

Politics, as I see it, is always part of any society i.e. where n>1. I'm sure you recognize it in your own family. You want this, your wife wants that, your kids want something different or nothing at all..money issue, discussion, consensus, compromise or just the hammer of an adult alpha male/female. I'm always fascinated by the mechanics of it. To pretend "it" isn't there or shouldn't be there is an illusion.

agreed. suddenly, you seem to be reading my posts rather than reading into my posts

"It" will always be there. Most of the problem lies in defining "it."

My fascination is how easy it is for "each person or group" to deem themselves morally or intellectually superior simply because it makes them feel good about themselves.

Going back to the previous example "the 60% vote to oppress the 30% in order to help the 10% for the greater good!" That takes some serious mental gymnastics of denying the aspects of reality one does not wish to focus upon because it hurts their sense of feeling good. We all do it.

WHAT THE ????? "OK, OK!!!! If the 30% complain too much will just bury the cost of the program in the price of gasoline or food. Or make those who are too young to vote pick up the tab! Or tell the stupid that it is free, or that they won't pay, BIG BUSINESS will pay."

How many of today's problems are caused by yesteryear's solutions?

I think OTNOT is entertaining because of the different viewpoints, and because no poster wants to perform the immense amount of work required to actually make their case. Similarly, few readers want to work very hard to "truly understand" the perspective of the poster. Solving problems is hard work, commenting on building an ideal society is easy.

When Fred who lives 50 miles or more away from Joe starts telling Joe how to solve Joe's local problem with no knowledge of the specifics, or a third, fourth, or fifth hand source of knowledge, it is little more than "reality" imitating a reality show.

"Politics" is where ideology meets reality. Not surprisingly, it often resembles a train wreck. "It" will always be messy, always subjective, and always mutating to adapt to it's changing environment.

I think as long as each of us vows to defend our faith....... "we" will be "fine."

[Parodite]

Parodite,

My only definition of "practical solution" is each voluntarily donating their own time and money to solving the problems they experience in their own communities. Will a perfect society result, nope. Will Fred be busy enough putting out the fires that burn closest to his own home, that he has little time for setting fires elsewhere, perhaps!

Once one gets into the business of group or individual "A," subjugating group or individual "B," to help group or individual "C," for the greater good of "society," as you have noted it is endless debate and evaluation. How to convince Fred to take one for the team, huh, what whose team?

Majorities, minorities, costs, distribution, details, details, details.........

fair, good, help, oppress are all vey subjective/relative terms.

continual mutation seems like the dominant process.

You fairly well describe reality. People have private interests, different ideas, opinions, definitons of "fair", what is "social responsibility" etc. Politics is how all those forces work out and everybody is part of it.

[Parodite]

SM.. I know I know..but don't you think that it is a given that all human societies through history display a certain mechanics in how they organize their society, allow tittie suck for some and deny it to others, have an "us" and a "them" configuration one way or other albeit changing over time.. but the fact is it always there? You can philosofarce about it as long as you want with mutually annihilating fun rhetorics, but it seems you lost sight of the mechanics despite being exposed to physics et-all for all your life.

Politics, as I see it, is always part of any society i.e. where n>1. I'm sure you recognize it in your own family. You want this, your wife wants that, your kids want something different or nothing at all..money issue, discussion, consensus, compromise or just the hammer of an adult alpha male/female. I'm always fascinated by the mechanics of it. To pretend "it" isn't there or shouldn't be there is an illusion.

agreed. suddenly, you seem to be reading my posts rather than reading into my posts

"It" will always be there. Most of the problem lies in defining "it."

My fascination is how easy it is for "each person or group" to deem themselves morally or intellectually superior simply because it makes them feel good about themselves.

I think that is only a small force in the process, the competition/interaction of forces. A bigger force is what people believe they need.

Going back to the previous example "the 60% vote to oppress the 30% in order to help the 10% for the greater good!" That takes some serious mental gymnastics of denying the aspects of reality one does not wish to focus upon because it hurts their sense of feeling good. We all do it.

Well, maybe you have to make up your own mind if according to your own taste and impression anyone is indeed being oppressed, abused by others. Some people are miserable even without knowing it! Or you might think they should have nothing to complain about.. and are just too lazy to check with them whats going on before you make up your mind.

WHAT THE ????? "OK, OK!!!! If the 30% complain too much will just bury the cost of the program in the price of gasoline or food. Or make those who are too young to vote pick up the tab! Or tell the stupid that it is free, or that they won't pay, BIG BUSINESS will pay."

In a democracy, at least all whiners or "whiners" have a chance to change the game to better their own positions according their own taste.

How many of today's problems are caused by yesteryear's solutions?

That's why all is trial and error. Duscussion before during after. This doesn't need to be reason to then just sit home in despair and do nothing.

I think OTNOT is entertaining because of the different viewpoints, and because no poster wants to perform the immense amount of work required to actually make their case. Similarly, few readers want to work very hard to "truly understand" the perspective of the poster. Solving problems is hard work, commenting on building an ideal society is easy.

Quite true. Ideas and opinions are easy. The people who decide to put them into action, for better or worse, are shaping the world.

When Fred who lives 50 miles or more away from Joe starts telling Joe how to solve Joe's local problem with no knowledge of the specifics, or a third, fourth, or fifth hand source of knowledge, it is little more than "reality" imitating a reality show.

"Politics" is where ideology meets reality. Not surprisingly, it often resembles a train wreck. "It" will always be messy, always subjective, and always mutating to adapt to it's changing environment.

Indeed. Nothing is forever, can't stop change. So?

[Simple Minded]

"Politics" is where ideology meets reality. Not surprisingly, it often resembles a train wreck. "It" will always be messy, always subjective, and always mutating to adapt to it's changing environment.

Indeed. Nothing is forever, can't stop change. So?

Indeed & agreed.

So, life goes on my friend. As I have said before, the events themselves are no way as interesting (to me at least) as how the events are marketed/reported, & how the marketing/reporting is perceived/received.

[Endovelico]

(...)If you spent less time trying to soothe my low self-esteem, and more time rallying the northern yurps to help the southern yurps, then they wouldn't complain so much........ right?

Its not that they don't like what you are doing to them, they just want you to do more of it.....

Sometimes in one's blind eagerness to find a teat to suck on..... one ends up sucking on something other than a teat.

Who is to blame, the sucker or the suckee?

How do you say "hey this don't taste like my Mama's milk in Greek!!!"

Speaking for myself, and the Portuguese case, we are not interested in finding any teat to suck on... We have almost reached the point in which we can pay for most essential things we need (exports cover imports), so that we may expect to improve our lot without any help from outsiders, as long as trade stays relatively free. What we object to is being milked dry through excessive rates of interest. If we had to pay the ongoing rates of interest applied to the German sovereign debt, we would soon be out of the woods. And our creditors would eventually get their money back. But northern Europeans don't want us to be free from debt, they want to suck any money we may have left and continue being dependent on them...

[Simple Minded]

(...)If you spent less time trying to soothe my low self-esteem, and more time rallying the northern yurps to help the southern yurps, then they wouldn't complain so much........ right?

Its not that they don't like what you are doing to them, they just want you to do more of it.....

Sometimes in one's blind eagerness to find a teat to suck on..... one ends up sucking on something other than a teat.

Who is to blame, the sucker or the suckee?

How do you say "hey this don't taste like my Mama's milk in Greek!!!"

Speaking for myself, and the Portuguese case, we are not interested in finding any teat to suck on... We have almost reached the point in which we can pay for most essential things we need (exports cover imports), so that we may expect to improve our lot without any help from outsiders, as long as trade stays relatively free. What we object to is being milked dry through excessive rates of interest. If we had to pay the ongoing rates of interest applied to the German sovereign debt, we would soon be out of the woods. And our creditors would eventually get their money back. But northern Europeans don't want us to be free from debt, they want to suck any money we may have left and continue being dependent on them...

Endo,

This is why I love you and all crusaders and campaigners and priests and proselytizers:

"Speaking for myself...."

"and the Portuguese case......we........ We....We....we.....we.....we.... we.... we.... but northern Europeans......us..... they..... we..... them."

We humans are beautiful! Talk about one of the most common traits of humanity. we can find common ground and differences wherever we desire.

[Alexis]

Economist Jacques Sapir assesses perspectives for the European radical left. Here is the English version

The events which lead to the Diktat imposed upon Greece, and the Diktat itself, constitute a pivotal moment for is called the “radical left.” In one way, the Greek crisis subjects the « radical left » to a test as severe than the one it imposes on social-democracy. If the “radical left” does not find itself today in a similar crisis than social-democracy, it still risks finding itself confronted with a first magnitude crisis in orientation. Indeed, the Europeism characterizing the « radical left » is also doomed by the Diktat imposed on Greece. The question which being asked today is of knowing whether the “radical left” will accept to become merely an auxiliary force for social-democracy or if it is capable of living with all the consequences of a program of rupture. But such a program of rupture is no longer compatible with Europeism.

(...)

The first part of that text also might be of interest.

[Alexis]

Economist Jacques Sapir assesses perspectives for the European radical left

About those perspectives...

Varoufakis commenting the Diktat on July 13th (French version)

Small extract:

Mr Varoufakis said he would remain a backbench M.P. at the Greek Parliament, where he has « much more manoeuvering space and to tell the truth. » However, he cautioned that austerity will encourage the country's far right.

« In Parliament, I have to sit and look on the right of the auditorium, where 10 Nazis are sitting as representatives of the Golden Dawn. If our party Syriza, which cultivated so much hope in Greece... if we betray that hope and bow the head in front of this new postmodern occupation, then I can't see another issue than reinforcement of Golden Dawn. They will inherit the mantel of anti-austerity movement, this is tragical. »

I don't know if Varoufakis' concern on Greek Nazis is well placed. I have no idea whether they could realistically break beyond their current 10%-or-so level. This party is currently under strict inquiry by justice because of their creating a militia which became involved in murder of several immigrants.

Neofascists and assorted nazis are significant only in three European countries: Greece, Hungary with Jobbik, and obviously Ukraine. The latter is already in the state we know, thanks in good part to their neofascists, however I don't know whether the first two could be destabilized by them.

In most European countries, failure of radical left would rather benefit right-wing populists the likes of France's Front National, Britain's UKIP or Italy's Lega Nord. Or creative postmodern political endeavours the likes of Beppe Grillo's Cinque Stelle.