Iberian Nations

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Portuguese Financial Honor.........

Post by monster_gardener »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

Portugal Laden With $293 Billion Debt Exits Bailout Plan .. $ 30,000 per Portuguese

“There will now be two or three decades of lean times for the state, which will have to purge that debt burden,” ..

..

“I hope that everyone has learned that it’s not by following a path of squandering, spending what we don’t have and doing everything that is contrary to the sustainability of the economy that we can improve the wellbeing of the Portuguese,” Luis Marques Guedes, Portugal’s minister for parliamentary affairs, said yesterday.
Thank you, Angela
.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Azari.

IMHO a Thank You also is due to the Portuguese.............

Recalling that even David Spengler Goldman said that unlike the Greeks and some others, the Portuguese ran a good budget pre-financial collapse in whose blast radius the Portuguese were unfortunately caught.... :roll:

Also that the Portuguese appear to have not just given the Banks/Banksters the heave-ho over the side the Viking Icelanders basically did.. :shock: :twisted: :idea:

Wonder what would have happened if all the Euroz had decided to go a Viking....... :shock:
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Re: Iberian Nations

Post by Endovelico »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:Thank you, Angela.
You got to be kidding!!! If we get out of this mess it's not because of Merkel but in spite of her idiotic policies...
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Free Catalonia!

Post by Endovelico »

These people want a free and independent Catalonia! I wish them all the best!...

Image
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Re: Iberian Nations

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.


Madrid has called on Spain’s constitutional court to strike down a planned independence referendum in the region of Catalonia,
and
issued a stern warning to political leaders in Barcelona to abandon their campaign for a historic break with the rest of the country.


“The consultation [referendum] is not compatible with the constitution, neither in its objective nor in its procedure,” Mariano Rajoy, the Spanish prime minister said. Speaking after an extraordinary meeting of the cabinet, he insisted that the planned Catalan vote would not take place: “National sovereignty rests with the Spanish people, in its entirety, and one part of it cannot take decisions about something that affects everyone.”

Mr Rajoy also voiced sharp criticism of Mr Mas, accusing the Catalan leader of a campaign to “break the bonds of brotherhood that have united Catalonia and Spain throughout our long common history”. He added: “I regret that the [Catalan] president has called a consultation on self-determination that goes beyond democracy, divides the Catalans [and] separates them from Europe and the rest of Spain.”

The Spanish leader said he was still committed to dialogue with the Catalan government, pointing out that the only legal way for Catalan to hold a referendum was to change the constitution. “The law can be changed [but] whoever wants to change must follow the democratic path.”
.
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Endovelico
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Re: Iberian Nations

Post by Endovelico »

In Catalonia the pro-independence parties would get an overwhelming majority in the Catalan Parliament if elections were held now. Interesting is the fact that, for the first time, the leftist republicans would be the most voted party. The local branch of the government party in Madrid (Partido Popular) would get only 2.1% of the vote in Catalonia.

Image

CiU, ERC, ICV-EUiA and CUP are the parties in favour of independence, but there are PSC and Podemos voters who would also support independence.

The government in Madrid may do whatever they want, but it seems almost sure a very clear majority of the Catalan people want the independence of their country.
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Re: Iberian Nations

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.

I usually buy from Sierra de Jabugo

but

Am told Coto de Galán has the best Jamon .. will try it

.
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Re: Iberian Nations

Post by Endovelico »

Free Catalonia!

Image

Tomorrow the Catalan nation will have the chance to give their first step towards their independence. Let's hope many will vote and that the majority will vote for an independence they have been waiting for since the 17th century.
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Re: Iberian Nations

Post by Doc »

Endovelico wrote:Free Catalonia!
OK where can we get this free "catalonia" and is it really free?
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Free Catalonia

Post by Endovelico »

The first step towards liberty and democracy is wanting and being able to vote. The Spanish government tried to make it impossible for Catalans to express their will, but people want to vote. These images show how, in an unofficial vote which many wanted to dismiss as irrelevant, Catalans are willing to wait as long as necessary to express their views.

Image

Image
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Free Catalonia

Post by Endovelico »

A few more misguided people waiting to be misled...

Image

Image
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Re: Iberian Nations

Post by Endovelico »

In a process which the Madrid government did its utmost to torpedo, and which had to be carried out with much fewer voting points than usual, which forced people to queue for hours before they could vote, over 2.3 million people actually voted (about 40% of the total entitled to vote), of which 81% were in favour of independence. People may claim that 81% of 40% is only 32.5% of all voters, and that therefore there is no guarantee that a majority of Catalans actually wants independence. By now we are used to nearly half of the people refusing to vote in any election anywhere in the world, without that being enough cause to consider the election invalid. That 40% of the voters actually voted in spite of the difficult conditions, and that 81% of those did vote for independence, must be seen as enough proof that Catalans want their country to be independent.

Next step should be a vote for the Catalan Parliament, in which parties favouring independence will state, from the start, that a vote for them would be, first of all, a vote for independence, and a mandate for those parties to declare the country's independence. If those parties end up winning a clear majority in Parliament, the way will be open for independence to be declared, whether or not the central government agrees. If anything, Madrid's stupidity will have moved more Catalans to vote yesterday for independence.
Simple Minded

Re: Iberian Nations

Post by Simple Minded »

Endo,

Are the people of Spain saying anything similar to people in the UK?.

"If Catalonia gets to vote whether to leave the country or stay, when do we get to vote whether we should keep them or throw them out?"

Amazing how often govts go half-ass on simple concepts.
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Re: Iberian Nations

Post by noddy »

the northern spaniards should be able to break away from the south, ditto the northern italians.

heh.
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Re: Iberian Nations

Post by Endovelico »

noddy wrote:the northern spaniards should be able to break away from the south, ditto the northern italians.

heh.
Northern Australians too?... ;)
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Re: Iberian Nations

Post by Endovelico »

Simple Minded wrote:Endo,

Are the people of Spain saying anything similar to people in the UK?.

"If Catalonia gets to vote whether to leave the country or stay, when do we get to vote whether we should keep them or throw them out?"

Amazing how often govts go half-ass on simple concepts.
Too many Spaniards still live in Franco's illusion of a "España, Una, Grande, Libre" [One Spain, Great and Free]. They fail to understand that being One and Free no longer seems compatible...
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Re: Iberian Nations

Post by noddy »

Absolutely. Ive been a sucessionist for decades.


Not likely unfortunately.
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Re: Iberian Nations

Post by Doc »

noddy wrote:Absolutely. Ive been a sucessionist for decades.
Same here. My Home state succeeded twice already. As they say third times a charm. :D
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Re: Iberian Nations

Post by Endovelico »

Catalan leader maps out 18-month plan to secede from Spain
Miquel Noguer / Maiol Roger / Àngels Piñol Barcelona 26 NOV 2014 - 12:18 CET

Catalan leader Artur Mas has announced a plan to proclaim independence for the region within 18 months after the next regional elections are held.

Mas, of the moderately nationalist CiU bloc, addressed a crowd in Barcelona on Tuesday to defend the need for unity among all pro-sovereignty parties.

Although no dates have yet been mentioned, the premier seems to favor a cross-party secessionist coalition that would run in early elections, allowing voters to show whether they support independence for the region or not.

If results show “an absolute majority” supporting the pro-independence group, Catalonia would declare itself independent within the next year and a half, Mas said.

The idea of using early elections to act as a measure of pro-independence sentiment in the region arose out of the legal impossibility of holding a proper referendum.

An attempt to do so was shot down by the central government in Madrid, which appealed to the Constitutional Court. The latter ordered the vote suspended until it rules on its compliance with the Spanish Constitution, and it did the same with a non-binding poll meant to replace the original referendum project.

But the Catalan government went ahead and held the vote anyway on November 9, leading to a state prosecution against Mas and two top officials for disobedience, breach of public duties, misuse of public money and usurpation of powers.

The informal vote yielded 80 percent support for sovereignty, but turnout was around 30 percent and observers argue that most opponents of independence chose to stay at home rather than take part in an exercise widely viewed as illegal.

Polling stations fully closed on Tuesday after remaining open an additional two weeks to allow those unable to cast their vote on November 9 to do so. Around 26,000 people have taken advantage of the extended deadline, and the final recount will be released in the coming days.

Although Mas has been pressured into calling elections before 2016, on Tuesday he warned that he would “do so only if the point is to hold the consultation [on independence]. If it is simply to change the government, I will not.”

In the event of wholesale support for independence, Catalonia would inform Madrid and international organizations of its desire to create a state, build Catalan state structures, and draft a Catalan Constitution.

“The entire process should be completed by late 2016,” he said.

Sitting in the front row at the public event was Catalan Republican Left (ERC) leader Oriol Junqueras, whose party has always been an ardent proponent of independence.

Junqueras said on Wednesday that he was “satisfied” with Mas’s plan and open to dialogue, but avoided committing himself to the offer of running on a joint ticket.

So far, ERC supports running separately rather than in a grand nationalist coalition, arguing that this would attract more voters. A recent opinion survey showed that if early elections were held now, ERC would get more votes than the ruling CiU.

Other pro-sovereignty parties were less convinced by the idea. Joan Herrera, leader of the Initiative for Catalonia Greens (ICV), said he lamented the fact that Mas had made no mention of corruption, unemployment or inequality in his speech.

“There can be no new country without a clean country,” he said. Another like-minded party, CUP, considers that parliamentary plurality gets no favors with a single candidacy.

Meanwhile, the parties that oppose independence for Catalonia – the Popular Party, the Socialists and Ciutadans – also oppose calling early elections for the purpose of gauging pro-independence sentiment.

“We are very disappointed to see that not only are we clearly not over November 9 yet, we’re in fact facing yet another [referendum] to keep the country distracted,” said Enric Millo, the PP spokesman.

A Ciutadans official said “the solution is not changing passports, it’s changing the government.”

http://elpais.com/elpais/2014/11/26/ine ... 11094.html
It seems doable and may very well lead to the independence of Catalonia.
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Catalonia independence

Post by Endovelico »

The two main parties in Catalonia have agreed on a date for elections which will have as its main point the declaration of independence of Catalonia. It will be on September 27th, 2015. The pro-independence parties will run separately but will have a common plank on independence. Other smaller parties may join the two largest ones, in order to try and get a substantial majority. This is a vote the Spanish government cannot stop and which will have a plebiscitary character. Seeing that the independence plank will be common, if the parties presenting it get the majority, they will have a legitimate mandate for independence, and one cannot very well see what the Madrid government could do to stop it. Send in the army?...

http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2015/01/14/ ... 89555.html
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Re: Iberian Nations

Post by Endovelico »

Nothing the Spanish government does surprises me anymore...

The Spanish authorities have arrested eight young Spaniards who had fought in Eastern Ukraine in the Novorussian armed forces.
"Los arrestados, que fueron detenidos en una operación a las 6.30 de hoy, participaron en el conflicto armado en la región de Donbass, por lo que se les imputan la participación en delitos de asesinato, tenencia de armas y explosivos y actos que atentan contra los intereses de España."

Translation:

Those arrested, taken during an action today at 06.30 am, have participated in the armed conflict in the Donbass region, reason why they have been charged with the following crimes: murder, possession of weapons and explosives, and acts against the interests of Spain.

http://politica.elpais.com/politica/201 ... 11328.html
This is similar to the British authorities arresting in 1939 those Britons who had fought in Spain in the International Brigades, against the Franco forces...
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Re: Iberian Nations

Post by Typhoon »

Endovelico wrote:Nothing the Spanish government does surprises me anymore...

The Spanish authorities have arrested eight young Spaniards who had fought in Eastern Ukraine in the Novorussian armed forces.
"Los arrestados, que fueron detenidos en una operación a las 6.30 de hoy, participaron en el conflicto armado en la región de Donbass, por lo que se les imputan la participación en delitos de asesinato, tenencia de armas y explosivos y actos que atentan contra los intereses de España."

Translation:

Those arrested, taken during an action today at 06.30 am, have participated in the armed conflict in the Donbass region, reason why they have been charged with the following crimes: murder, possession of weapons and explosives, and acts against the interests of Spain.

http://politica.elpais.com/politica/201 ... 11328.html
This is similar to the British authorities arresting in 1939 those Britons who had fought in Spain in the International Brigades, against the Franco forces...
A better analogy would be the Yanks and the Brits arresting their nationals who join ISIL.
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Re: Iberian Nations

Post by Endovelico »

ISIL

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Image

NOVORUSSIAN ARMY

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Re: Iberian Nations

Post by Endovelico »

Iberian Stupidity
Spain, Portugal Slam Tsipras' Accusations Of "Conspiracy Plot" To Overthrow Greek Government
Submitted by Tyler Durden on 03/01/2015 15:25 -0500

Just when things seemingly couldn't get any stranger in Europe, we open a whole-new bizarro chapter.

Back on February 1, when the negotiations, or rather posturing, surrounding the Greek bailout extension was at its peak, we reported something peculiar: of all the countries in Europe, it was none other than France, seemingly tired of walking in Germany's shadow, that announced it was "prepared to support Greece" in its debt negotiations. "France is more than prepared to support Greece," French finmin Sapin said, adding that Greece’s efforts to renegotiate were "legitimate." Sapin urged a "new contract between Greece and its partners."

Of course, this quickly led nowhere because as everyone knows, France is irrelevant in Europe and only Germany's opinion matters: Germany, which only agreed to a Greek bailout extension, when all of Syriza's demands were crushed, and the Tsipras government is not merely a shell of its pre-election promises, and in many ways, just a continuation of the previous Samaras regime. As such, the Frencsh support of a Greek debt writedown, understandable since it is none other than France whose socialists will one day sooner or later require a comparable debt negotiation, was duly noted... and promptly ignored:

However, what was even more peculiar is that it was the financial peers of Greece, the other insolvent PIIGS, particularly Spain and Portugal, who exist only thanks to the goodwill of the ECB buying up their bonds (or else watch as their economies implodes overnight once the "sex and drugs"-boosting facade of their GDP is stripped away) that took a far more hard-line approach toward Greece, and in fact were just as harsh on the Greek debt renegotiation proposal as Germany itself.

Yesterday Tsipras made clear his displeasure with the betrayal of what were formerly his socio-economic insolvent equals quite well-known, when he accused Spain and Portugal on Saturday of "leading a conservative conspiracy to topple his anti-austerity government, saying they feared their own radical forces before elections this year."

As Reuters reports, in a speech to his Syriza party, Tsipras turned on Madrid and Lisbon, accusing them of taking a hard line in negotiations which led to the euro zone extending the bailout programme last week for four months.

"We found opposing us an axis of powers ... led by the governments of Spain and Portugal which for obvious political reasons attempted to lead the entire negotiations to the brink," said Tsipras, who won an election on Jan. 25.

"Their plan was and is to wear down, topple or bring our government to unconditional surrender before our work begins to bear fruit and before the Greek example affects other countries," he said, adding: "And mainly before the elections in Spain."

This is not surprising: after all as previously reported, Spain's new anti-establishment Podemos movement has topped some opinion polls, making it a serious threat to the conservative People's Party of Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy in an election which must be held by the end of this year.

Rajoy went to Athens less than a fortnight before the Greek election to warn voters against believing the "impossible" promises of Syriza. His appeal fell on deaf ears and voters swept the previous conservative premier from power.

Portugal will also have elections after the summer but no anti-austerity force as potent as Syriza or Podemos has so far emerged there. In an interview published before Tsipras made his speech, Prime Minister Pedro Passos Coelho denied that Portugal had taken a hard line in negotiations on the Greek deal at the Eurogroup of euro zone finance ministers.

"There may have been a political intention to create this idea, but it is not true," he told the Expresso weekly newspaper.

Passos Coelho aligned himself with euro zone governments which have called for policies to promote economic growth but without trying to walk away from austerity as in Greece. "We were on the same side as the French government, with the Italian and Irish governments. I think it's bad to stigmatize southern European countries," he said.

It's bad, but the very next day both Spain and Portugal rushed to cry in Brussels, when both nations demanded that the EU "arbitrate" and respond to Tsipras' allegations, in the process essentially validating his accusations. The same EU which orchestrated the entire farce to begin with.

As Bloomberg reports, "Pedro Passos Coelho and Mariano Rajoy request response from EU after Greek premier Alexis Tsipras said that the two southern European countries were trying to cause the downfall of his government during recent talks, a spokesperson for Rajoy, who asked not to be named citing govt policy, says by phone." Portugal, Spain sent a letter on the matter to the European Council and the European Commission

To be sure, none of this will result in either government retracting its statements (especially since Greece now only has rhetorical "conquests" to fall back on having given up all leverage to German by admitting it is unable to quit the Eurozone, i.e., the biggest trump card, and bluff, it may have had), but it will lead to even more animosity, only no longer between the European "North" and "South", but among the Peripheral nations themselves, as the political bickering redirects anger from Merkel and the ECB, and toward other Mediterranean countries. Perhaps just as Merkel wanted from the beginning.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-03-0 ... hrow-greek
It's all true and it will help Syriza-like parties in Spain and Portugal getting to power. Easier to achieve in Spain than in Portugal, but by the end of the year Greece will no longer be isolated in Europe and Russia may have three new willing partners in Southern Europe
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Are the Portuguese More Fiscally Responsible than the Greeks

Post by monster_gardener »

Endovelico wrote:Iberian Stupidity
Spain, Portugal Slam Tsipras' Accusations Of "Conspiracy Plot" To Overthrow Greek Government
Submitted by Tyler Durden on 03/01/2015 15:25 -0500

Just when things seemingly couldn't get any stranger in Europe, we open a whole-new bizarro chapter.

Back on February 1, when the negotiations, or rather posturing, surrounding the Greek bailout extension was at its peak, we reported something peculiar: of all the countries in Europe, it was none other than France, seemingly tired of walking in Germany's shadow, that announced it was "prepared to support Greece" in its debt negotiations. "France is more than prepared to support Greece," French finmin Sapin said, adding that Greece’s efforts to renegotiate were "legitimate." Sapin urged a "new contract between Greece and its partners."

Of course, this quickly led nowhere because as everyone knows, France is irrelevant in Europe and only Germany's opinion matters: Germany, which only agreed to a Greek bailout extension, when all of Syriza's demands were crushed, and the Tsipras government is not merely a shell of its pre-election promises, and in many ways, just a continuation of the previous Samaras regime. As such, the Frencsh support of a Greek debt writedown, understandable since it is none other than France whose socialists will one day sooner or later require a comparable debt negotiation, was duly noted... and promptly ignored:

However, what was even more peculiar is that it was the financial peers of Greece, the other insolvent PIIGS, particularly Spain and Portugal, who exist only thanks to the goodwill of the ECB buying up their bonds (or else watch as their economies implodes overnight once the "sex and drugs"-boosting facade of their GDP is stripped away) that took a far more hard-line approach toward Greece, and in fact were just as harsh on the Greek debt renegotiation proposal as Germany itself.

Yesterday Tsipras made clear his displeasure with the betrayal of what were formerly his socio-economic insolvent equals quite well-known, when he accused Spain and Portugal on Saturday of "leading a conservative conspiracy to topple his anti-austerity government, saying they feared their own radical forces before elections this year."

As Reuters reports, in a speech to his Syriza party, Tsipras turned on Madrid and Lisbon, accusing them of taking a hard line in negotiations which led to the euro zone extending the bailout programme last week for four months.

"We found opposing us an axis of powers ... led by the governments of Spain and Portugal which for obvious political reasons attempted to lead the entire negotiations to the brink," said Tsipras, who won an election on Jan. 25.

"Their plan was and is to wear down, topple or bring our government to unconditional surrender before our work begins to bear fruit and before the Greek example affects other countries," he said, adding: "And mainly before the elections in Spain."

This is not surprising: after all as previously reported, Spain's new anti-establishment Podemos movement has topped some opinion polls, making it a serious threat to the conservative People's Party of Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy in an election which must be held by the end of this year.

Rajoy went to Athens less than a fortnight before the Greek election to warn voters against believing the "impossible" promises of Syriza. His appeal fell on deaf ears and voters swept the previous conservative premier from power.

Portugal will also have elections after the summer but no anti-austerity force as potent as Syriza or Podemos has so far emerged there. In an interview published before Tsipras made his speech, Prime Minister Pedro Passos Coelho denied that Portugal had taken a hard line in negotiations on the Greek deal at the Eurogroup of euro zone finance ministers.

"There may have been a political intention to create this idea, but it is not true," he told the Expresso weekly newspaper.

Passos Coelho aligned himself with euro zone governments which have called for policies to promote economic growth but without trying to walk away from austerity as in Greece. "We were on the same side as the French government, with the Italian and Irish governments. I think it's bad to stigmatize southern European countries," he said.

It's bad, but the very next day both Spain and Portugal rushed to cry in Brussels, when both nations demanded that the EU "arbitrate" and respond to Tsipras' allegations, in the process essentially validating his accusations. The same EU which orchestrated the entire farce to begin with.

As Bloomberg reports, "Pedro Passos Coelho and Mariano Rajoy request response from EU after Greek premier Alexis Tsipras said that the two southern European countries were trying to cause the downfall of his government during recent talks, a spokesperson for Rajoy, who asked not to be named citing govt policy, says by phone." Portugal, Spain sent a letter on the matter to the European Council and the European Commission

To be sure, none of this will result in either government retracting its statements (especially since Greece now only has rhetorical "conquests" to fall back on having given up all leverage to German by admitting it is unable to quit the Eurozone, i.e., the biggest trump card, and bluff, it may have had), but it will lead to even more animosity, only no longer between the European "North" and "South", but among the Peripheral nations themselves, as the political bickering redirects anger from Merkel and the ECB, and toward other Mediterranean countries. Perhaps just as Merkel wanted from the beginning.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-03-0 ... hrow-greek
It's all true and it will help Syriza-like parties in Spain and Portugal getting to power. Easier to achieve in Spain than in Portugal, but by the end of the year Greece will no longer be isolated in Europe and Russia may have three new willing partners in Southern Europe
Thank You Very Much for your post, Endovelico.....

Remembering David "Spengler" Goldman's statement that unlike the other PIIGS, Portugal was fiscally responsible pre-Economic Crash and was simply caught in the financial blast radius.....

Wondering if Portugal really has that much in common character wise with the Greeks who have the reputation of being irresponsible......
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