Ukraine

[Heracleum Persicum]

.


I don’t think the civil war will come because the question of the Ukraine is more the question about “who will give more,”



Interesting interview .. maybe I should post it in "North America" thread


.

[Typhoon]

NYB | Ukraine: Putin’s Denial

Not only does Russia mismanage what it has, the largest territory on the planet, it presumes to [mis]manage others.

N3lz2GFfkEg

[Typhoon]

Still,

Russia wins [this round] of the Ukraine's ruling class allegiance

As for the protesters, they're more excited about the EU than the Europeans . . .

[YMix]

Trading with Russia is the only short-term economic option available to Ukraine. The protesters should shut up and focus on something more realistic: putting together a set of economic measures designed to make the economy less dependent on Russia and making sure every future government sticks to it.

[YMix]

http://tinyurl.com/m5s3utn

Heavy fighting in the Independence Square. Any chance the "Champions of Freedom" (a.k.a. Republicans) show the same courage as Eastern European leftists?

[Doc]

http://tinyurl.com/m5s3utn

Heavy fighting in the Independence Square. Any chance the "Champions of Freedom" (a.k.a. Republicans) show the same courage as Eastern European leftists?

Yes But still a long way to get there. Besides Obama has been preparing for it for years.

http://michellemalkin.com/2009/04/14/co ... s-is-real/

Confirmed: The Obama DHS hit job on conservatives is real
Share
By Michelle Malkin • April 14, 2009 12:01 AM

[Doc]

http://www.voanews.com/content/26-dead- ... 54781.html
26 Dead in Escalation of Clashes in Ukraine

February 19, 2014
Thousands of anti-government protesters remained in the main square in Ukraine's capital, after a day of fierce clashes with riot police left at least 26 people dead in the worst violence in three months of political demonstrations.

Ukraine's President Viktor Yanukovych has blamed opposition leaders for the violence, which escalated as riot police charged the main opposition protest camp late Tuesday in Kyiv.

Police and opposition representatives said many of those killed in the unrest were hit by gunshots. Dozens of the injured were serious condition. Nine of the dead were police officers.

The head of Ukraine's Security Service announced Wednesday it had launched an "anti-terrorist operation" to restore order in the country.

In a statement posted on the service's website, chief Oleksandr Yakimenko said municipal buildings, security offices and arms depots had been seized. He said 1,500 firearms and 100,000 rounds of ammunition wound up "in the hands of criminals" during the past day.



"Radical extremist groups and their actions are a real threat to the life of millions of Ukrainians," Yakimenko's statement read.

Protesters in the western Ukrainian city of Lviv seized various government buildings, including the local security service headquarters.

European Union foreign ministers will hold an emergency meeting Thursday in Brussels, where they are expected to agree on sanctions against those responsible for the violence in Ukraine. Speaking Wednesday at a joint press conference with her French counterpart, German Chancellor Angela Merkel said both countries agree the European Union should impose sanctions on those behind Ukraine's worst violence to date.

Earlier Wednesday, Ukrainian opposition leader Vitali Klitschko met with President Yanukovych for talks, but the meeting failed to produce a breakthrough. Klitschko said the president demanded protesters "stop the standoff" and unconditionally clear the square.

Klitschko urged the pro-Western demonstrators occupying Kyiv's Independence Square - also known as Maidan - to defend their positions. Thick black smoke could be seen rising from the barricades encircling the protest camp Wednesday.

U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has released a statement saying he is "shocked and gravely concerned" about the escalation of violence and said use of violence by either side is unacceptable.

Ukrainian champion pole vaulter and head of Ukraine's Olympic Committee, Sergei Bubka, made a public appeal for peace Wednesday, calling on both sides to observe the "Olympic truce," a voluntary halt to violence during the international games that take place every two years.

The United States has issued a travel warning for its citizens in Ukraine, warning them to "maintain a low profile" while in the capital and be prepared to remain indoors at night, if necessary to avoid the clashes.

U.S. Vice President Joe Biden phoned Mr. Yanukovych late Tuesday to express "grave concern" about the violence, calling on the Ukrainian president to pull back security forces and exercise maximum restraint. Biden told Mr. Yanukovych his government bears "special responsibility" to resolve the crisis.

Anti-government protests have been building for weeks, with activists calling for Mr. Yanukovych's ouster after he backed away from a trade deal with the European Union in favor of closer ties with Russia.

Protesters, some armed with clubs and wearing helmets and body armor, attempted to stand their ground in central Kyiv, hurling firebombs and stones at police as plumes of smoke billowed from burning tents and piles of tires and wood.

Security forces have been steadily gaining ground in the square, where thousands of protesters remain, hearing speeches from their leaders and singing the national anthem.

Meanwhile in Russia, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov condemned the deadly Ukraine protests as a "coup attempt." He denied claims President Vladimir Putin was giving advice to Ukraine's president on how to handle the crisis and reiterated Moscow would not interfere with the Ukraine's internal affairs.

[YMix]

Lviv Declares Independence from Yanukovich Rule

By Gianluca Mezzofiore , February 19, 2014 12:49 PM GMT

The Western region of Lviv has reportedly declared independence from Ukraine in a potential breakthrough of the anti-government protests in the country.

Hours after protesters seized the prosecutor's office in central Lviv and forced a surrender by Interior Ministry police, the executive committee of the region council - also called the People's Rada – claimed control over the region.

"The regime has begun active military action against people [...] Dozens of people have been killed in Kyiv and hundreds have been wounded [...]Fulfilling the will of society, the executive committee of the Lviv region's council, the People's Rada, is assuming full responsibility for the fate of the region and its citizens," reads a statement.

The executive committee is led by Petro Kolodiy, chairman of the Lviv region's council.

Lviv lies close to the border with Poland and was one of the venues for the Euro 2012 soccer tournament. Over the past months, the city has represented a powerful engine to drive the insurgency against president Viktor F. Yanukovich.

The region of Lviv, traditionally hostile to the easterner Yanukovich and in favour of closer ties with the European Union, has a population of 2.5 million.

The regional assembly in Lviv issued a statement condemning President Yanukovich's govenrment for its "open warfare" on demonstrators in Kiev.

Poland said Ukrainians blocked the Korczowa border crossing near Lviv. According to local media, opposition groups in other western cities including Khmelnitsky, Ivano-Frankivsk, Uzhorod and Ternopil, also took over public buildings.

The opposition stronghold had de facto ousted the Ukrainian governor Oleh Salo in January and expelled him from his suite of offices in the Region State Administration.

[Doc]

Lviv Declares Independence from Yanukovich Rule

By Gianluca Mezzofiore , February 19, 2014 12:49 PM GMT

The Western region of Lviv has reportedly declared independence from Ukraine in a potential breakthrough of the anti-government protests in the country.

Hours after protesters seized the prosecutor's office in central Lviv and forced a surrender by Interior Ministry police, the executive committee of the region council - also called the People's Rada – claimed control over the region.

"The regime has begun active military action against people [...] Dozens of people have been killed in Kyiv and hundreds have been wounded [...]Fulfilling the will of society, the executive committee of the Lviv region's council, the People's Rada, is assuming full responsibility for the fate of the region and its citizens," reads a statement.

The executive committee is led by Petro Kolodiy, chairman of the Lviv region's council.

Lviv lies close to the border with Poland and was one of the venues for the Euro 2012 soccer tournament. Over the past months, the city has represented a powerful engine to drive the insurgency against president Viktor F. Yanukovich.

The region of Lviv, traditionally hostile to the easterner Yanukovich and in favour of closer ties with the European Union, has a population of 2.5 million.

The regional assembly in Lviv issued a statement condemning President Yanukovich's govenrment for its "open warfare" on demonstrators in Kiev.

Poland said Ukrainians blocked the Korczowa border crossing near Lviv. According to local media, opposition groups in other western cities including Khmelnitsky, Ivano-Frankivsk, Uzhorod and Ternopil, also took over public buildings.

The opposition stronghold had de facto ousted the Ukrainian governor Oleh Salo in January and expelled him from his suite of offices in the Region State Administration.

It won't be long before Russian tanks roll across the border

[YMix]

Yes But still a long way to get there. Besides Obama has been preparing for it for years.

So far, the Ukrainians have the Tea Party and the OWS beat.

[kmich]

It won't be long before Russian tanks roll across the border

Doubt that. Putin is a ruthless apparatchik but he is not stupid. The Russians could attempt to partly dismember Ukraine by granting "independence" to the largely Russian and autonomous Crimea, kind of a replay of the Georgia breakaway territories of Akhazia and South Ossetia in 2008, but it is too early to tell. Look for the Russians to continue this sort of thing for now: Moscow accuses US diplomats of ‘puppeteering’ Ukraine to deflect attention from how Yanukovych and the Ukrainian parliament have dangerously mishandled the situation and failed to honor their promises. I read Yanukovych has just sacked the head of the armed forces, Col Gen Volodymyr Zamana, so the situation for the government is going very badly quickly.

A very dangerous situation. I just hope the Americans and the EU don't haplessly play into Putin game through mindless efforts to impact on the situation that will only inflame it. I would not hold my breath. Maybe John McCain will show up in Independence square claiming "we are all Ukrainians now."

[Typhoon]

Yes But still a long way to get there. Besides Obama has been preparing for it for years.

So far, the Ukrainians have the Tea Party and the OWS beat.

Indeed. The Ukrainians are real freedom fighters, not delusional internet windbags.

[Doc]

It won't be long before Russian tanks roll across the border

Doubt that. Putin is a ruthless apparatchik but he is not stupid. The Russians could attempt to partly dismember Ukraine by granting "independence" to the largely Russian and autonomous Crimea, kind of a replay of the Georgia breakaway territories of Akhazia and South Ossetia in 2008, but it is too early to tell. Look for the Russians to continue this sort of thing for now: Moscow accuses US diplomats of ‘puppeteering’ Ukraine to deflect attention from how Yanukovych and the Ukrainian parliament have dangerously mishandled the situation and failed to honor their promises. I read Yanukovych has just sacked the head of the armed forces, Col Gen Volodymyr Zamana, so the situation for the government is going very badly quickly.

A very dangerous situation. I just hope the Americans and the EU don't haplessly play into Putin game through mindless efforts to impact on the situation that will only inflame it. I would not hold my breath. Maybe John McCain will show up in Independence square claiming "we are all Ukrainians now."

In that case the Russians will drive in backwards and say they are leaving.

Really what will happen is what happened in Poland int eh 1980's Russian Troops will dress up as Ukrainian troops. It would be even easier than it was in Poland since 1/3rd of Ukrainians speak Russian as their native language.

Best case scenario -- East and West Ukraine.

[Doc]

Yes But still a long way to get there. Besides Obama has been preparing for it for years.

So far, the Ukrainians have the Tea Party and the OWS beat.

Indeed. The Ukrainians are real freedom fighters, not delusional internet windbags.

Well as I said. Apparently Obama does not agree with you.....

[Simple Minded]

Yes But still a long way to get there. Besides Obama has been preparing for it for years.

So far, the Ukrainians have the Tea Party and the OWS beat.

Indeed. The Ukrainians are real freedom fighters, not delusional internet windbags.

Absolutely!

oppressors with vision use neither bureaucracy nor pepper spray, but cheap, fast internet access... and if they are really clever, free video games!

the ability to criticize and disagree with hundreds of millions of people you have never met, instantaneously, with a few key strokes, is a great stress reliever.....

wonder what a Ukrainian Pajama Boy would look like......

[kmich]

The last minute attempt at a truce has failed. The harsh, crackdown attempt not only failed but caused the situation to rapidly deteriorate. It is hard to see how Yanukovych can hold on to power now. Putin is probably perturbed by Yanukovych's incompetence in managing the situation but he also is too smart a player to cast his chips on a loser. Putin will definitely look out for Russian interests, but this is not 1980. Expect his response to be wary and calculated rather than reactive. The problem now will be obtaining reliable information. US media outlets have no resources there and have to rely on other sources. I would go to those direct sources. Even RT can help in getting an understanding as to how the Russian authorities are viewing the situation.

[Alexis]

The last minute attempt at a truce has failed. The harsh, crackdown attempt not only failed but caused the situation to rapidly deteriorate. It is hard to see how Yanukovych can hold on to power now.

I'm not sure.

After having been quite irresponsive to provocations by the minority violent fringe of the demonstrators, encouraging them while they were using violence, authorities are now reacting harshly. Dozens of KIAs, hundreds of WIAs on both sides demonstrators and policemen, many of the wounds being from gunshots.

The head of the Army was replaced yesterday. The previous head was viewed as neutral between government and demonstrators and had ruled out Army intervention in restoring order.

Situation in the west of the country is now insurrectional. In Lviv and other Western cities, army barrackments were attacked and stocks of weapons seized (conscript soldiers surrendered), central government buildings burnt and the local Parliament declared itself "responsible for the future of the region".

Ukraine was already threatened by bankruptcy before the demonstrations began. Now it is sliding quicker in that direction. And the simple reality is that while Ukraine sorely needs foreign help, EU is not ready to provide, while Russia is.

The situation could unfold in many ways...

- Government collapse, followed by successful coup bringing one or the other party or coalition of parties to power. Role of the "Svoboda" nationalist antisemite party (which provides a good part of the most violent and most organised demonstrators) would be a question

- Government crackdown limited to Kiev, using the Army. A bloodbath. Effective partition of the country, the government not trying to reconquer the insurrected Western provinces. Partition is later agreed and officialized, the smaller Western part becoming able to turn itself towards EU like it wants to, the larger Central-Eastern now having a clear majority in favour of Russian orientation

- Government crackdown in whole country, using the Army, successful. A worse bloodbath, especially in the West. Ukraine becomes "pariah" as far as Europe and the US are concerned, only Russia supports - but Russian support is both necessary, and sufficient

- Government crackdown in whole country, using the Army, successful except in the West. Like previous, except Army fails to reestablish governmental authority in the West (defections in some Army units). A full-fledged civil war ensues. NATO soon begins supporting the nationalist provisional government in Lviv, while Russia supports the Ukrainian government in Kiev. The war worsens, Syria-like

Anyway, in my opinion, the conclusion to this sorry story can only be violent now.

I wish for one of the two first scenarios. But I'm very worried about the others.

[YMix]

Anyway, in my opinion, the conclusion to this sorry story can only be violent now.

Unless Y. flees the country with his buddies. If that doesn't happen, there's no turning back.

[kmich]

Good post, Alexis.

All those scenarios are possible, and yes, the situation is far too volatile to predict with any confidence. I would bet though that the Russians are actively attempting to engineer behind the scenes your first option to secure their interests with new leadership without Yanukovych's incompetence and baggage in the way. You are absolutely right, the Russians have the money and are willing to use it for their interests, and the EU cannot and will be limited to reactive speeches and sanctions .

Russian money could talk in an country where the hryvnia has dropped more than 9 percent since December and the central bank is completely without a plan. Unless, of course, the Russians decide the situation is hopeless and decide not to throw good money after bad. That would make the other options much more likely. We shall see.

In any case, the situation is grim and bloody. It may get to the point that no one can stop the violence.

Yyj6kR4-AII

[Doc]

[kmich]

Ukrainian president and opposition sign early poll deal. Hope this holds.

[YMix]

Word is Y. was preparing to land in Dubai.

[Typhoon]

Yes But still a long way to get there. Besides Obama has been preparing for it for years.

So far, the Ukrainians have the Tea Party and the OWS beat.

Indeed. The Ukrainians are real freedom fighters, not delusional internet windbags.

Well as I said. Apparently Obama does not agree with you.....

Well, the US [Bush I admin] was opposed to the break up of the former Soviet Union spearheaded by the Baltic nations.

Top marks for consistency.

[Typhoon]

Word is Y. was preparing to land in Dubai.

Y. has left the building.

The government of Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich has been impeached and new elections will be held on May 25, reports Ukrainian news agencies.

Parliament has voted, with a majority of 328, to pass a special resolution removing Yanukovych from office.

Ukraine's former prime minister Yulia Tymoshenko has been released from her eastern Ukraine prison and is on her way to Kyiv.
“A dictatorship has fallen. All must be done to ensure protesters did not die in vain,” Tymoshenko said, reported grasswire.com.

British Foreign Secretary said via Twitter on Saturday that Britain will stand with Germany and support a new government in Ukraine while working together to tackle Ukraine's massive debt problems by pushing for an International Monetary Fund financial package.

Yanukovych, from his hold out in eastern-Ukraine, has refused to step down and is calling what has happened in the last few hours a coup. He also says he has no intention of resigning or leaving the country.

[Endovelico]

In the Ukraine you have two different nations which do not like each other at all. Better split. Follow the Czechoslovakia model and be happy...