Scotland

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Endovelico
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Scotland

Post by Endovelico »

Support for Scottish independence increasing

Image
Pro-independence supporters wave the Saltire as they gather in Edinburgh on September 21, 2013 for a rally in support of an independent Scotland (AFP Photo/Andy Buchanan)

London (AFP) - Support for the "Yes" campaign backing an independent Scotland is growing sharply, eight months of a referendum on the issue, according to a poll published in the Scotland on Sunday newspaper.

Some 37 percent of those surveyed said they supported independence, with 44 percent opposed and 19 percent undecided. This is a five point gain for the "Yes" campaign since the last ICM survey was conducted last September.

"Once the 'Don't Knows' are excluded from the calculation, those figures translate into 46 percent Yes, 54 percent No, the highest Yes proportion yet in any poll, other than in a much-criticised poll conducted by Panelbase for the SNP (Scottish National Party) in August last year," explained poll expert John Curtice.

While independent polls have consistently shown for twenty years that only a third of Scottish voters favour independence, a poll conducted by the nationalists in August found 44 percent in favour and 43 percent against.

But the survey was criticised as being partisan and the methodology questioned by experts.

Blair Jenkins, chief executive of Yes Scotland, said the new poll "demonstrates very clearly that we are getting our message across and that momentum is very much on our side".

Scots will vote on their independence on September 18 this year.

Scotland has enjoyed increased autonomy within the United Kingdom, which also includes England, Wales and Northern Ireland, since a 1997 referendum.

Its parliament looks after education, health, environment and justice, but defence and foreign policy are still decided by London, which is calling on Scots to reject independence.

http://news.yahoo.com/support-scottish- ... 30865.html
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The Scots Made this Mess/Minature Golf as an Olympic Sport ;

Post by monster_gardener »

Endovelico wrote:
Support for Scottish independence increasing

Image
Pro-independence supporters wave the Saltire as they gather in Edinburgh on September 21, 2013 for a rally in support of an independent Scotland (AFP Photo/Andy Buchanan)

London (AFP) - Support for the "Yes" campaign backing an independent Scotland is growing sharply, eight months of a referendum on the issue, according to a poll published in the Scotland on Sunday newspaper.

Some 37 percent of those surveyed said they supported independence, with 44 percent opposed and 19 percent undecided. This is a five point gain for the "Yes" campaign since the last ICM survey was conducted last September.

"Once the 'Don't Knows' are excluded from the calculation, those figures translate into 46 percent Yes, 54 percent No, the highest Yes proportion yet in any poll, other than in a much-criticised poll conducted by Panelbase for the SNP (Scottish National Party) in August last year," explained poll expert John Curtice.

While independent polls have consistently shown for twenty years that only a third of Scottish voters favour independence, a poll conducted by the nationalists in August found 44 percent in favour and 43 percent against.

But the survey was criticised as being partisan and the methodology questioned by experts.

Blair Jenkins, chief executive of Yes Scotland, said the new poll "demonstrates very clearly that we are getting our message across and that momentum is very much on our side".

Scots will vote on their independence on September 18 this year.

Scotland has enjoyed increased autonomy within the United Kingdom, which also includes England, Wales and Northern Ireland, since a 1997 referendum.

Its parliament looks after education, health, environment and justice, but defence and foreign policy are still decided by London, which is calling on Scots to reject independence.

http://news.yahoo.com/support-scottish- ... 30865.html
Thank You VERY Much for your post, Endovelico.

The late Ian Banks would approve. :)

But the funny thing is that the reason Scotland is part of the UK is that Scotland conquered England when King James VI of Scotland became King James I of England.....

So it could be said that the Scots got themselves into this situation ;-)

Problem being that the Scottish Stuarts eventually lost the throne.......

Perhaps England could keep Scotland within the UK sheepfold ;) by deposing the current German Hanover/Windsor dynasty and having the Hanovers Hand Over ;) the throne to some descendant of Bunny Princess Charlie ;) oops I mean Bonny Prince Charlie or some other Stuart pretender*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnie_Prince_Charlie

Or maybe the Scots would be satisfied with having their own Olympic Team.......

Campaign for a Scottish Olympic Team (C-ScOT) is a pressure group in Scotland, established in 2005, which aims to persuade politicians to establish a team to represent Scotland at the Olympic Games.[1]

C-ScOT commissioned a question in the regular omnibus survey by Market Research UK which found that 78% of respondents answered yes to the question "Would you like to see Scotland send its own Olympic Team to London 2012?" Over 1,000 adults, aged 16 or over, were interviewed between 12–18 August 2005.[2]

The proposal has the backing of the ruling political party in the Scottish parliament, the Scottish National Party, and was raised by the First Minister of Scotland, Alex Salmond again in 2011.[3]

C-ScOT claims that a Scottish National Olympic Committee could meet all the criteria set down by the Olympic Charter. A number of non-sovereign nations send teams to the Olympics including Puerto Rico, Hong Kong and Palestine. There is also precedent for this in other international sporting competitions, such as the football World Cup, in which Scotland fields its own teams.

However, the Olympic Charter has significant barriers to such a team. Since 1995 the Olympic Charter has not allowed for the recognition of non-sovereign nations - section 31.1 of the Olympic Charter states that to be considered a country a nation must be "an independent State recognised by the international community".[4] The Olympic Charter also requires there to be at least five national sporting federations, recognised by the international federations of an Olympic sport, and currently only the Scottish Football Association and Scottish Rugby meet that criteria.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_f ... ympic_Team

One way to facilitate this would be to make Golf an Olympic sport ;) :lol:
Golf in Scotland was first recorded in the 15th century, and the modern game of golf was first developed and established in the country. The game plays a key role in the national sporting consciousness.[1][2]

The Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews, known as the R&A, is the world governing body for the game (except in the United States and Mexico), and to many golfers the Old Course, an ancient links course dating to before 1574, is considered to be a site of pilgrimage.[3] There are many other famous golf courses in Scotland, including Carnoustie, Gleneagles, Muirfield, Balcomie and Royal Troon. The world's first Open Championship was held at Prestwick in 1860,[4] and Scots golfers have the most victories at the Open at 42 wins, one ahead of the United States.
Image

Maybe miniature golf too....... ;) :lol: :lol: :lol:

Image

*Or pretend ;) to do so by having the next Hanover/Windsor heir marry a Stuart Little pretender ;)


NOTE: I checked on Golf as an Olympic Sport again....... Found something I missed the first time....

Looks like Golf is coming back to the Olympics.... :lol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_sports
Two other discontinued sports, golf and rugby, are due to return in 2016.
Imagine Tiger Woods & Cigar Guy medaling ;) at the Olympics.......

https://www.google.com/search?q=cigar+g ... 80&bih=832


Maybe Scotland is going to get its Olympic team soon......
Last edited by monster_gardener on Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scotland

Post by Endovelico »

Well...
Franz, Duke of Bavaria (Franz Bonaventura Adalbert Maria Herzog von Bayern; born 14 July 1933), styled as His Royal Highness the Duke of Bavaria, is head of the House of Wittelsbach, the former ruling family of the Kingdom of Bavaria. His great-grandfather Ludwig III was the last King of Bavaria before being deposed in 1918.

Image

Franz is also the current heir-general of King Charles I of England and Scotland, and thus as Francis II is considered by Jacobites to be the legitimate heir of the Stuart kings of England, France, Scotland and Ireland.

As he has no children, after his death the rights to the Stuart House will go to Sophie, Hereditary Princess of Liechtenstein (born 28 October 1967 in Munich), the wife of Alois, Hereditary Prince and Regent of Liechtenstein. Born a princess of Bavaria, she belongs to the House of Wittelsbach.

Image
It's just a matter of exchanging a German Royal Family for another...
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Re: Scotland

Post by noddy »

europe is uniting with ever increasing vigour.
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Re: Scotland

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

noddy wrote:europe is uniting with ever increasing vigour.
Referring to politics or copulation? ;)
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Endovelico
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Re: Scotland

Post by Endovelico »

noddy wrote:europe is uniting with ever increasing vigour.
A united Europe is only possible after all European nations have gained the right to be sovereign. So Scotland's or Catalonia's independence are necessary steps before unity can be achieved. European union can never be a colonial-type union. It has to be a federation or confederacy of sovereign peoples.
Simple Minded

Re: Scotland

Post by Simple Minded »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:
noddy wrote:europe is uniting with ever increasing vigour.
Referring to politics or copulation? ;)
Ain't that just a good idea whose time has come again? Inter marriage of royal families prevent wars?
Seems less problematic than the ED... Freudian typo, should have been EU.

Hopefully they won't emulate the examples of Mericans.
In WV or AR, even when everybody is related to everyone else, people don't seem to get along any better.

Just cause yer wife and yer sister are the same person don't mean yer gonna get along better with either.
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Re: Scotland

Post by noddy »

Endovelico wrote:
noddy wrote:europe is uniting with ever increasing vigour.
A united Europe is only possible after all European nations have gained the right to be sovereign. So Scotland's or Catalonia's independence are necessary steps before unity can be achieved. European union can never be a colonial-type union. It has to be a federation or confederacy of sovereign peoples.
if splitting into smaller independant units is defined as centralisation then im 100% behind it.
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Re: Scotland

Post by Parodite »

noddy wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
noddy wrote:europe is uniting with ever increasing vigour.
A united Europe is only possible after all European nations have gained the right to be sovereign. So Scotland's or Catalonia's independence are necessary steps before unity can be achieved. European union can never be a colonial-type union. It has to be a federation or confederacy of sovereign peoples.
if splitting into smaller independant units is defined as centralisation then im 100% behind it.
:lol: I subscribe to that. In Brussels the sovereignty of euro peoples is eroding as we speak.
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Re: Scotland

Post by noddy »

i still dont get the alleged benefits of the mega unions like the eu and constant babbling about needing it to compete with china - it appears they get all excited by the big numbers and go ooh ahhh "china" has massive resources but the actual real world outcome for an individual chinese joe is worse than for the equivilant asian joe in one of the smaller countries.

being 1 in a few million gives you far better chances of being relevant than being 1 in a billion.

thats before we get into the non too delicate aspects of the smaller groupings that are currently doing well and will only go backwards when they have to support other groups they dont particularly care about, its only the struggling countries that really wish to take the risk on these larger structures because they dont have much to lose anyway.
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Smaller can be better....

Post by monster_gardener »

noddy wrote:i still dont get the alleged benefits of the mega unions like the eu and constant babbling about needing it to compete with china - it appears they get all excited by the big numbers and go ooh ahhh "china" has massive resources but the actual real world outcome for an individual chinese joe is worse than for the equivilant asian joe in one of the smaller countries.

being 1 in a few million gives you far better chances of being relevant than being 1 in a billion.

thats before we get into the non too delicate aspects of the smaller groupings that are currently doing well and will only go backwards when they have to support other groups they dont particularly care about, its only the struggling countries that really wish to take the risk on these larger structures because they dont have much to lose anyway.
Thank You VERY Much for your post, Noddy.
the smaller groupings that are currently doing well and will only go backwards when they have to support other groups they dont particularly care about
Reminds me of South Korea.... NOT interested in reunification with the Norks in the North anymore....

Especially the younger generation....

Skeptical of trying to rehabilitate millions of brainwashed cannibal zombie Orks :twisted: oops I mean Norks....

North Korea is no longer the same culture as South Korea..... :roll:

Very different religiously: Worshiping of the incarnate Kim II Devil in the North vs. Buddhism & Christianity in the South.....

Would be orders of magnitude harder than what the West Germans had to do to rehabilitate the East Germans....
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Re: Scotland

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.


No deal on sterling will mean no deal on national debt, Scottish first minister says


.

After studying civil service analysis on the risks and complications involved in such a deal, Osborne said: "It is clear to me: I could not as chancellor recommend that we could share the pound with an independent Scotland."

Salmond, Scotland's first minister, retaliated by accusing the chancellor of "bluff, bluster and posturing" and insisting that a currency pact was "overwhelmingly" in the interests of both countries.

Facing the most focused and significant challenge so far to his plans for independence, Salmond described the joint attack from the UK parties as "a concerted bid by a Tory-led Westminster establishment to bully and intimidate".

Ignoring Osborne's jibe that to threaten a debt default was like threatening "to burn my own house down in protest", Salmond warned that if there was no deal on sterling, there would be no deal on Scotland paying its share of the £1.6tn of national debt expected by 2016. Initially turning down bids for television interviews, he issued a statement saying that if the UK did refuse to set up a new sterling zone, it would harm UK businesses and would leave the UK government having to pick up the entirety of UK debt.

"All the debt accrued up to the point of independence belongs legally to the Treasury, as they confirmed last month – and Scotland can't default on debt that's not legally ours," the statement said. "However, we've always taken the fair and reasonable position that Scotland should meet a fair share of the costs of that debt. But assets and liabilities go hand in hand, and – contrary to the assertions today – sterling and the Bank of England are clearly shared UK assets."

.

Scotland should adapt EURO and reject British National Debt


.
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Re: Scotland

Post by Azrael »

Endovelico wrote:
noddy wrote:europe is uniting with ever increasing vigour.
A united Europe is only possible after all European nations have gained the right to be sovereign. So Scotland's or Catalonia's independence are necessary steps before unity can be achieved. European union can never be a colonial-type union. It has to be a federation or confederacy of sovereign peoples.
You might be right about this.

What do Franz and Sophie have to say about Scottish independence? I would imagine that they'd be wary of offending the Haus Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha.
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Azrael
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Re: Scotland

Post by Azrael »

noddy wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
noddy wrote:europe is uniting with ever increasing vigour.
A united Europe is only possible after all European nations have gained the right to be sovereign. So Scotland's or Catalonia's independence are necessary steps before unity can be achieved. European union can never be a colonial-type union. It has to be a federation or confederacy of sovereign peoples.
if splitting into smaller independant units is defined as centralisation then im 100% behind it.
Are you in favor of independence for Tasmania?
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Better the Bruce than the Euro.........

Post by monster_gardener »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:.


No deal on sterling will mean no deal on national debt, Scottish first minister says


.

After studying civil service analysis on the risks and complications involved in such a deal, Osborne said: "It is clear to me: I could not as chancellor recommend that we could share the pound with an independent Scotland."

Salmond, Scotland's first minister, retaliated by accusing the chancellor of "bluff, bluster and posturing" and insisting that a currency pact was "overwhelmingly" in the interests of both countries.

Facing the most focused and significant challenge so far to his plans for independence, Salmond described the joint attack from the UK parties as "a concerted bid by a Tory-led Westminster establishment to bully and intimidate".

Ignoring Osborne's jibe that to threaten a debt default was like threatening "to burn my own house down in protest", Salmond warned that if there was no deal on sterling, there would be no deal on Scotland paying its share of the £1.6tn of national debt expected by 2016. Initially turning down bids for television interviews, he issued a statement saying that if the UK did refuse to set up a new sterling zone, it would harm UK businesses and would leave the UK government having to pick up the entirety of UK debt.

"All the debt accrued up to the point of independence belongs legally to the Treasury, as they confirmed last month – and Scotland can't default on debt that's not legally ours," the statement said. "However, we've always taken the fair and reasonable position that Scotland should meet a fair share of the costs of that debt. But assets and liabilities go hand in hand, and – contrary to the assertions today – sterling and the Bank of England are clearly shared UK assets."

.

Scotland should adapt EURO and reject British National Debt


.

Thank You Very Much for your post, Azari.
Scotland should adapt EURO
Calling Alexis.........

Offhand I would say that if the Scots do separate from the rest of the UK they might do better to just set up their own currency.....

Which they would control themselves......

Maybe call it the Bruce.......

Or maybe the Bobby ;-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_the_Bruce
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Independence for Tasmania: Devilish Problem.....

Post by monster_gardener »

Azrael wrote:
noddy wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
noddy wrote:europe is uniting with ever increasing vigour.
A united Europe is only possible after all European nations have gained the right to be sovereign. So Scotland's or Catalonia's independence are necessary steps before unity can be achieved. European union can never be a colonial-type union. It has to be a federation or confederacy of sovereign peoples.
if splitting into smaller independant units is defined as centralisation then im 100% behind it.
Are you in favor of independence for Tasmania?
Thank you Very MUCH for your post, Azrael.....
independence for Tasmania?
That sounds like a Devilish Problem ;) :twisted:

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Re: Scotland

Post by Endovelico »

It may be seen as strange to post this here, but it isn't...
Slovakia: life after the velvet divorce
by Angus Roxburgh Published 6 March, 2014 - 10:00

On New Year’s Day a small, mountainous European country of just over five million people celebrated its 21st anniversary as an independent nation. Since independence, it has enjoyed some of Europe’s highest growth rates, with strong inward investment encouraged by low taxes, and has become an active member of the European Union, stoutly defending its own interests.

The country in question is Slovakia, known until its “Velvet Divorce” from the Czech Republic in 1993 as the smaller, less developed and weaker part of Czechoslovakia. Now it scores higher in almost every economic indicator.

A model for the Scots, as we contemplate independence for our own mountainous land of five million souls? Well, it would be wrong to see too many parallels. But as a Scot living in the Slovak capital, Bratislava, for the past three years, I see the experience of this country’s separation from the Czech Republic as pretty positive. The strongest testimony to this is that a large majority of both Czechs and Slovaks – who overwhelmingly opposed the split at the time (there was no referendum) – now believe it was for the best. Re-creating Czechoslovakia does not even register as a political issue. More than that, Czechs and Slovaks appear to get on better now than they did when they shared a country, constantly bickering as they did (just like the Scots and English) over whether one “subsidised” the other or “dictated policy”.

In conversations with Slovak politicians and observers, I have heard the same upbeat point again and again: “We have grown up politically. We don’t have anyone else to blame any more. We are responsible for our own decisions.”

The experience of Slovakia’s re-emergence as a state certainly dispels some of the myths surrounding Scotland’s likely fate after a Yes vote. Even though the “divorce” was rushed through in a matter of months, allowing little time for negotiations (which the Scots are told would be fiendishly complex), Slovakia was admitted to international institutions such as the World Bank and IMF from day one, and became a member of the United Nations after just 19 days. Czechoslovakia was not a member of the European Union at the time but both new countries went on to join the EU in 2004, and it was Slovakia, not the Czech Republic (previously seen as economically more vibrant), that was first to adopt the euro, in the days when that was a mark of respectability.

It is odd to see the Scottish independence debate so dominated by economics – often reduced to the banal question of whether Scots might be a few hundred pounds better off after independence. There are much more fundamental issues, in my view, that colour many Scots’ attitudes to Westminster – matters of democracy, national identity, culture and (let’s be frank) that big chip we have on our shoulder.

It was something similar that led to the collapse of Czechoslovakia three years after it emerged from communism in 1989. Just as Scotland time and again gets a government in London that it didn’t vote for, so the Slovaks used to feel ignored and patronised by Prague. I remember coming to Bratislava in 1991 to report on what was being called “the Hyphen war”. Thousands of Slovaks marched in the streets to champion the somewhat improbable cause of inserting a hyphen into the country’s name: “Czecho-slovakia”. But that was just a strange expression of a much deeper need. The Velvet Revolution had ushered in a Czechoslovakia where the divisions between the two nations became more apparent than they had been under the communist state.

According to the sociologist Olga Gyárfášová, many Slovaks were apprehensive about the fast-track-to-capitalism reforms being proposed in Prague – a fear that the leaders of a growing Slovak nationalist movement could exploit. Gyárfášová says the “Czechoslovak nation” was a fragile construct anyway which began to disintegrate as soon as the glue of the communist system evaporated.

Ján Carnogurský, a communist-era dissident who became prime minister of the Slovak part of Czechoslovakia in 1991, then voiced a thought that seemed shocking at the time – that Slovakia should “have its own little [European] star”. His immediate successor, the nationalist Vladimir Meciar, went further, doing a deal with the Czech prime minister to split the country without even consulting the public in a referendum. Opinion polls showed that 67 per cent of Slovaks and 78 per cent of Czechs were against the split, but it went ahead anyway from 1 January 1993.

The initial upheaval was immense, with border posts going up, customs barriers, separate currencies and passports – all things the Scottish government hopes to avoid – plus a complex exercise in political arithmetic as Czechoslovakia’s real estate, from embassies to tanks and aircraft, was divided up to reflect the 2:1 ratio of the new countries’ populations.

At first, many Slovaks felt orphaned rather than empowered. The EU condemned Meciar’s government as authoritarian and reactionary, pursuing backward-looking economic policies. Unemployment soared. The Czech Republic was accepted into Nato five years before Slovakia and powered ahead in the race to join the EU. Slovaks had to wait until the late Nineties, when they elected a reforming, democratically minded government, before they were invited to apply for EU membership.

But after this rocky start Slovakia took off, and hasn’t looked back. The country joined Nato in March 2004, and the EU – simultaneously with the Czech Republic and several other central European countries – two months later. Foreign investors such as Volkswagen, Samsung and Deutsche Telekom, attracted by a low 19 per cent flat tax rate, saw it as a prime location. Being in the Schengen area brought an end to border controls and passport checks. In 2007, just before the global crash, Slovakia had the highest growth rate in the EU (10.5 per cent). Within a short time it met the criteria to join the single currency, and on 1 January 2009 fireworks and concerts marked its spectacular entry into the eurozone. For a tiny country that had once looked like the poor man of Europe, these were big, brassy badges of honour.

Despite the global recession and continuing high unemployment, Slovakia, one of only four former communist countries to have joined the eurozone, remains one of Europe’s success stories. Its economy is growing while that of its “big brother”, the Czech Republic, is contracting. National wealth – per capita GDP – has soared from just 50 per cent of the EU average 12 years ago to 76 per cent today. It is the world’s biggest car producer per head of population.

That is some achievement for a country most people would find hard to place on the map (“Was it part of Yugoslavia?” – “Er, no, that’s Slovenia!”). By contrast, Scotland is a ready-made international brand. From whisky to golf, bagpipes to kilts, the Edinburgh Festival to Braveheart, everyone around the world knows something about Scotland.

Perhaps that is why I could find few Slovaks who, despite their own successes, would positively urge Scots to follow suit. František Šebej, a veteran politician who leads the foreign affairs committee in the Slovak parliament, asked me why we needed it. Well, I began, we are a nation with a different identity . . . Šebej laughed: “Exactly! You are a nation, you have your identity! So what do you need independence for?”

Like most others, Šebej agrees that independence has transformed political life in the country. “The Slovak intelligentsia and political class got a chance to mature. We do not have anyone to point a finger at, to make excuses, so that’s kind of a good thing.”

But although he sees no way back, he regrets the break-up of Czechoslovakia because it had “more clout in the world” than tiny Slovakia.

A recent prime minister of Slovakia, Iveta Radicová, would take issue with the notion that her country lacks clout. One of her first acts when she entered office in July 2010 was to refuse flatly to contribute €816m to an emergency aid fund for Greece, on the understandable grounds that she simply could not sell the idea to her own people. Slovaks are immeasurably poorer than Greeks and most object strongly to the idea of their own country, which abides by every comma in the single-currency rulebook, contributing billions to dig Greeks out of their self-inflicted mess.

With her blond hair and feisty views, Radicová quickly became compared to an earlier, British prime minister who “wanted her money back”.

Slovakia did agree to a later eurozone bail-out for Greece, but Radicová, now a sociology lecturer, is adamant that her little country made a big difference. “We put on the table three conditions: involvement of the private sector, changes in the Stability and Growth Pact, and an automatic sanction system,” she says. “It was Slovakia that put these on the table. And they were accepted.” She points out that new EU voting mechanisms, due to come in this year under the Lisbon Treaty, will ensure that small countries are less likely to be swamped at EU ministerial gatherings.

Though there is no hankering after the restoration of Czechoslovakia, there is, I sense, a little nostalgia for the bigger nation that Slovakia used to belong to. The downside of independence is the country’s “smallness”. Slovak television seems parochial; the gene pool of talent is that much smaller. Slovaks still watch Czech TV as well as their own, and love Czech songs, comedians and films. Prague, they tell you with some regret, was a great place to have as your capital city.

The split has not driven Czechs and Slovaks apart; rather the opposite. Many thousands of Czechs still live in Slovakia, and vice versa. Czech climbers throng the mountain paths and ski slopes in the Slovak Tatras – and Slovaks endlessly josh about “yet another group of stupid Czechs lost in our hills”. Ice hockey is the national sport and matches between the two ignite the same passions as Scotland-England football games. Yet there is not even a hint of bitterness. Recently the Czech and Slovak equivalents of Britain’s Got Talent got together again for a series of Czecho Slovakia’s Got Talent, with one presenter from each nation and plenty of benign rivalry. (Note, however, the stubborn use of two separate words in “Czecho Slovakia”.)

Most importantly, the acrimony that dogged the old country has vanished. “The Czechs always used to complain that they were ‘paying’ for us, and we used to complain that they were bossing us around. Not any more,” says Gyárfášová. “Now we trust each other more. We get on better than ever.”

And she adds a thought that seems most relevant to the case of Scottish independence. “If separation hadn’t happened it would always be on the agenda – it would be a problem that would never go away, and would overshadow all other problems. At least we don’t have to think about it any more.”

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... et-divorce
This is why I favour sovereignty for all European nations, including Catalonia and Scotland...
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Parodite
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Re: Scotland

Post by Parodite »

Maybe at the turn of every century world wide referendums can be held among the peoples of the nations if any borders need to be redrawn. Enough time to dialogue and consider things together first.

Most difficult issue, it seems to me, will always be who is allowed to vote. For instance in the case of the Crimea it is very obvious: should all Ukrainians have equal right to vote.. or only the Crimeans. You could try to first vote together, as an intermediate step, on who has the right to vote in the final referendum. But it wouldn't solve the problem. Or you could say the Crimeans can do a referendum and the remainder of the Ukraine as well, but separately. If both want the same.. then hell why not.
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: Scotland

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Parodite wrote: Most difficult issue, it seems to me, will always be who is allowed to vote. For instance in the case of the Crimea it is very obvious: should all Ukrainians have equal right to vote.. or only the Crimeans. You could try to first vote together, as an intermediate step, on who has the right to vote in the final referendum. But it wouldn't solve the problem. Or you could say the Crimeans can do a referendum and the remainder of the Ukraine as well, but separately. If both want the same.. then hell why not.

what authority, right, have ALL Spaniards to allow or not allow Catalonia to separate and become an independent state (that is what Spanish prime minister saying) ? ?

If California wants and votes for exit union, can NY say no ? ? ?

It is the right ONLY of those people in that province to decide what they want

In that sense, if Scotland, Catalonia, Crimea, Corsica, Basques want to have a referendum asking these question, it is only their business and nobody else

Brits handling this right .. Scots will decide weighing the pro and con and vote and all should accept this

Same with Crimea

Same with Catalonia

and

If people do not want to stay in the union nothing can stop them
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monster_gardener
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Secession Blues and Grays.......

Post by monster_gardener »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Parodite wrote: Most difficult issue, it seems to me, will always be who is allowed to vote. For instance in the case of the Crimea it is very obvious: should all Ukrainians have equal right to vote.. or only the Crimeans. You could try to first vote together, as an intermediate step, on who has the right to vote in the final referendum. But it wouldn't solve the problem. Or you could say the Crimeans can do a referendum and the remainder of the Ukraine as well, but separately. If both want the same.. then hell why not.

what authority, right, have ALL Spaniards to allow or not allow Catalonia to separate and become an independent state (that is what Spanish prime minister saying) ? ?

If California wants and votes for exit union, can NY say no ? ? ?

It is the right ONLY of those people in that province to decide what they want

In that sense, if Scotland, Catalonia, Crimea, Corsica, Basques want to have a referendum asking these question, it is only their business and nobody else

Brits handling this right .. Scots will decide weighing the pro and con and vote and all should accept this

Same with Crimea

Same with Catalonia

and

If people do not want to stay in the union nothing can stop them
Thank You Very Much for your post, Azari.
If California wants and votes for exit union, can NY say no ? ? ?
Probably Yes.....

NY can say No...

Because, in part, when South Carolina, North Carolina, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia ;) , Florida, Louisiana, Arkansas, Texas, and Virginia wanted and voted to leave the Union......

California & New York and many others said No!

The Civil War is generally supposed to have settled the issue of secession from the Union.....

At the cost of the worst war the US has yet fought.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_War_ ... _States%29

Image



Though States may sometimes separate as Massachusetts and Maine did while remaining within the Union.....

And consider.....

If California leaves the Union, perhaps Los Angeles might want to leave California and the gangland turfs of Bloodistan, Cripistan and many other gangistans might want to leave Los Angeles..... :shock:

Might be like letting every province and tribe in Iran secede.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloods

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crips

This is NOT a theoretical idea.....

When Virginia left the Union during the Civil War.....

West Virginia left Virginia......

Not saying it can't/won't happen......

But the price is often blood, death and rancor that lasts generations and centuries......
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: Secession Blues and Grays.......

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

monster_gardener wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Parodite wrote: Most difficult issue, it seems to me, will always be who is allowed to vote. For instance in the case of the Crimea it is very obvious: should all Ukrainians have equal right to vote.. or only the Crimeans. You could try to first vote together, as an intermediate step, on who has the right to vote in the final referendum. But it wouldn't solve the problem. Or you could say the Crimeans can do a referendum and the remainder of the Ukraine as well, but separately. If both want the same.. then hell why not.

what authority, right, have ALL Spaniards to allow or not allow Catalonia to separate and become an independent state (that is what Spanish prime minister saying) ? ?

If California wants and votes for exit union, can NY say no ? ? ?

It is the right ONLY of those people in that province to decide what they want

In that sense, if Scotland, Catalonia, Crimea, Corsica, Basques want to have a referendum asking these question, it is only their business and nobody else

Brits handling this right .. Scots will decide weighing the pro and con and vote and all should accept this

Same with Crimea

Same with Catalonia

and

If people do not want to stay in the union nothing can stop them
Thank You Very Much for your post, Azari.
If California wants and votes for exit union, can NY say no ? ? ?
Probably Yes.....

NY can say No...

Because, in part, when South Carolina, North Carolina, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia ;) , Florida, Louisiana, Arkansas, Texas, and Virginia wanted and voted to leave the Union......

California & New York and many others said No!

The Civil War is generally supposed to have settled the issue of secession from the Union.....

At the cost of the worst war the US has yet fought.....

Though States may sometimes separate as Massachusetts and Maine did while remaining within the Union.....

And consider.....

If California leaves the Union, perhaps Los Angeles might want to leave California and the gangland turfs of Bloodistan, Cripistan and many other gangistans might want to leave Los Angeles.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloods

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crips

This is NOT a theoretical idea.....

When Virginia left the Union during the Civil War.....

West Virginia left Virginia......

:lol: very funny

If California votes to exit the union, maybe Los Angeles wants to stay .. even if Los Angeles want to leave too, maybe Beverly Hills wants to stay .. even if Beverly Hills wants to leave too, maybe Rodeo Drive wants to stay

come on

California is one entity, one state (at this point and time)

Those historical "Civil War" facts are from a "Slave society", have no bearing for today .. if California decides to exit America, that should be it

Same with Catalonia same with Crimea
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Parodite
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Re: Scotland

Post by Parodite »

You will have a field day in Iran HP! :lol:

Separatist movements in Iran:

Azerbaijan (Iran)
Proposed state: SouthAzerbaijanFlag.gif South Azerbaijan Political party: CAMAH (South Azerbaijan National Liberation Movement), a Baku-based separatist organisation that advocates for the separation of Iranian Azerbaijan from Iran and unification with the Republic of Azerbaijan. According to them, the predominantly ethnic Persian provinces of Hamadan, Qazvin and Karaj and the whole of the ethnically mixed province of West Azerbaijan are parts of Azerbaijan.[15]


Turkmen Sahra
Proposed state: South Turkmenistan Political party: Turkmen-Sahra Liberation Organization

Pan-Turkism party

Arabs of Khūzestān
Proposed state: Flag of Arabistan.svg al-Ahwaz[16]

Further information: Politics of Khūzestān Province
Militant organisations: Al-Ahwaz Arab People's Democratic Popular Front, Ahwaz Arab Renaissance Party, Ahwaz Liberation Organisation
Advocacy group: Democratic Solidarity Party of Al-Ahwaz (member of the Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization)


Kurdish people
Proposed state: Flag of Kurdistan.svg Kurdistan[17] Political parties: Kurdistan Democratic Party of Iran (member of the Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization)
Militant organisations: Party for a Free Life in Kurdistan, Komalah


Sistan and Baluchestan Province
Proposed state: Balochistan Political party: Balochistan People's Party
Militant organisations: Jundallah (Iran)



Image
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: Scotland

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Parodite wrote:You will have a field day in Iran HP! :lol:

Separatist movements in Iran:

Azerbaijan (Iran)
Proposed state: SouthAzerbaijanFlag.gif South Azerbaijan Political party: CAMAH (South Azerbaijan National Liberation Movement), a Baku-based separatist organisation that advocates for the separation of Iranian Azerbaijan from Iran and unification with the Republic of Azerbaijan. According to them, the predominantly ethnic Persian provinces of Hamadan, Qazvin and Karaj and the whole of the ethnically mixed province of West Azerbaijan are parts of Azerbaijan.[15]


Turkmen Sahra
Proposed state: South Turkmenistan Political party: Turkmen-Sahra Liberation Organization

Pan-Turkism party

Arabs of Khūzestān
Proposed state: Flag of Arabistan.svg al-Ahwaz[16]

Further information: Politics of Khūzestān Province
Militant organisations: Al-Ahwaz Arab People's Democratic Popular Front, Ahwaz Arab Renaissance Party, Ahwaz Liberation Organisation
Advocacy group: Democratic Solidarity Party of Al-Ahwaz (member of the Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization)


Kurdish people
Proposed state: Flag of Kurdistan.svg Kurdistan[17] Political parties: Kurdistan Democratic Party of Iran (member of the Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization)
Militant organisations: Party for a Free Life in Kurdistan, Komalah


Sistan and Baluchestan Province
Proposed state: Balochistan Political party: Balochistan People's Party
Militant organisations: Jundallah (Iran)



Image

.

Was waiting for this, Parodite

look,

is anybody agitating , or sending arms and saboteurs and bombs to Catalonia to encourage or force them to separate from Spain ? ?

No

If MAJORITY of a "people", Catalan, Basque, Azari, Balutchi, Tajik , Gilaki or any other people want to separate .. if so .. nobody can stop them .. absolutely nobody .. no matter how much force applied

Iran, Persia, was on it's knee last few 100 yrs .. there was absolute no central power and authority in Iran from 1750 til 1920 .. Zero central power

Meaning all those ethnics on the above map could have separated, left Iran

But they did not

In fact, all lost lost provinces want to return to Iran .. Bahrain, Iranian province # 21 , they fighting and dying asking to return to Iran :lol:

Central Asian countries, Tajik, Uzback, Afghanistan Turkamanistan and and and now want back to Persian civilization

That is what I am saying and you guys do not getting

Persia kept the empire intact for 1000 yrs not by sword but by "soft power", justice and goodwill

The acid test for this is .. WEST is trying to instigate a "separatist" uprising in Iran, Result will be that Baku and Azarbaijan will join Iran and not the other way round

If any province of Iran wanted to separate they could have done last 500 yrs there was nobody to hinder them doing so

issue is not "separatist movement" (dime a dozen everywhere) .. issue is whether overwhelming majority want to separate

Point is not those people you mention want to sepearte, YOU guys want them to seperate :lol: :lol:

proof of the pudding is Iran in one piece last 5000 yrs with all those ethnics .. that is an honor
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Re: Scotland

Post by Endovelico »

Parodite wrote:Maybe at the turn of every century world wide referendums can be held among the peoples of the nations if any borders need to be redrawn. Enough time to dialogue and consider things together first.

Most difficult issue, it seems to me, will always be who is allowed to vote. For instance in the case of the Crimea it is very obvious: should all Ukrainians have equal right to vote.. or only the Crimeans. You could try to first vote together, as an intermediate step, on who has the right to vote in the final referendum. But it wouldn't solve the problem. Or you could say the Crimeans can do a referendum and the remainder of the Ukraine as well, but separately. If both want the same.. then hell why not.
Self-determination means SELF-determination, determination by those concerned. For non-Catalan Spaniards to vote on independence for Catalonia would be anything but self-determination. Same in Crimea.
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Re: Scotland

Post by noddy »

For selfs larger than the individual but smaller than the national vaguely defined in cultural or racial aspects and typically refined in the cauldron of economic benefits
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