Scotland

[Simple Minded]

Endo,

According to your definitions of right and left. In Scotland, did the left vote no and the right vote yes or vice versa?

Would people in Scotland or in other parts of Europe agree with your definition of right and left, or are the definitions of right and left different in different European countries?

thanks.

[Nonc Hilaire]

I find the videos of voting fraud distressing. I wonder how it is being perceived in Scotland.

[Endovelico]

Endo,

According to your definitions of right and left. In Scotland, did the left vote no and the right vote yes or vice versa?

Would people in Scotland or in other parts of Europe agree with your definition of right and left, or are the definitions of right and left different in different European countries?

thanks.

Independence is not a matter of right or left, but it is possible that the left may have felt a little more inclined towards independence. On the other hand some people feel that Labour voters in Scotland may have voted No in order to keep Labour's chances of victory in the general elections in the UK, as Scots tend to be more pro-Labour than the English.

[Doc]

who is going to tell endo that the current crop of youngens will get old and likewise become risk averse and attached to government safety nets.

i love how all the english haters come out of the closet for this one.

Much like a teenager who complains about his parents at the dinner table, right up until Dad points to the door and says "That door ain't locked from the inside! You can leave anytime you want!"

The rest of the meal is eaten in silence.........

while the teenager thinks to himself....... if it wasn't for them paying for this food, these clothes, this shelter, my cell phone, my car, my car insurance..... and my college fund going away.......
I'd be outttttaaa here so fast it would make their head spin! Then they'd be sorry!


While the father thinks "Man, life will be good again when that little bastard is FINALLY outta my house!"

http://www.spectator.co.uk/columnists/m ... the-scots/

Yes or no, I’ll never feel the same about the Scots
Most English people I know wanted Scotland to stay, but only if the Scots themselves really want to
136 Comments 20 September 2014 Matthew Parris Follow @MatthewParris3
Matthew-Parris

I doubt I’m alone among English readers of this magazine in having felt uncomfortable with our last issue. ‘Please stay with us’ was a plea I found faintly offensive to us English. Not only did it have a plaintive ring, but there seemed to be something grovelling, almost self-abasing, in the pitch. Why beg? A great many Scots have wanted to leave the Union; and by arranging a referendum Westminster has asked Scotland to make up her mind. Let her, then. When did England become a petitioner in this affair?

‘Please stay’ implied that the Scots were minded to go and we were pleading with them to relent of their intention. Yet I haven’t thought of this referendum as a bid to change Scotland’s mind, but as an exercise to discover a nation’s wishes. Any moment now, we shall know what these were.

Within a short time of the publication of this issue, a ‘yes’ or a ‘no’ will be announced. If the verdict is for separation then so be it. England, Wales and Northern Ireland would have made it very clear that Scotland was welcome in the Union; but in the event the Scots would have decided to leave. That’s their prerogative. Now the terms of the divorce must be agreed.

In this negotiation, we in the rest of the UK would have to try not to be vindictive, and to be as fair and helpful as we reasonably can; but we won’t owe Scotland anything; we won’t any longer be trying to persuade her of anything; and we won’t be pleading with her any more. I would look forward to the honesty and the straight-talking with which we could approach this negotiation. We should be treading on eggshells no longer.

But if the result is a ‘no’ and Scotland decides — perhaps by quite a narrow margin — to stay, I think it’s important the rest of the Union is not thereafter infected by some misplaced sense of gratitude. I hope there will not be a special ‘Oh thank you, Scotland!’ issue of The Spectator. Scotland will not have done the rest of us a favour, and should not be given to believe the rest of the Union owes her gratitude, or anything else, in return.

Inline sub2

Wiser heads in the Better Together campaign have always allowed that Scotland could manage perfectly well as an independent country. Perhaps the rest of Union should remind ourselves that we could too. Instead, behaving as though we all faced doom, leading politicians in the three main Westminster parties — intent more on saving their own skins than in leaving Scotland to decide — began to panic when it seemed possible Scots might give the wrong answer. Dignity was cast aside, and many hostages to fortune offered, in a scramble to talk Scots out of their possible decision to leave.

With all respect to my senior Spectator colleagues (and pace the almost humiliating desperation in the tone of our ‘please stay’ anthology), I have not found that this sense of panicky impending loss has found much echo among many of my fellow English outside the worlds of politics and journalism. Almost all the voices raised for the ‘no’ campaign in England with any real passion have come either from the kind of Englishman who hunts, sails or skis in the Highlands and Islands, or from talented Scots who have migrated south in search of a larger arena for their talents. This is a group well-represented among the commanding heights of British journalism and politics, and a distinctive and distinguished demographic. But it is not, I’m afraid, a representative one; nor does it carry the force of numbers.

Most English people I speak to have seemed rather relaxed about the referendum, and many alienated by all the fuss. Most would feel a little hurt to be rejected, but few have been having sleepless nights. A comfortable majority have had a preference — though a mild one — for Scotland to stay, but only if that’s what Scots themselves really want. ‘Well it’s up to them’ would be typical of the response. It happens to be mine.

I do now wonder whether the result would have been any worse for the Union — and whether it might even have been better — if Cameron, Clegg, Miliband and co had adopted from the start the approach that, while they’d personally be relieved and happy if Scotland decided to stay, this was entirely for Scotland to decide; and they wouldn’t want to talk that nation into or out of any change that might appeal to her. ‘Over to you’ might have made a better slogan than ‘Better together’.

In the wheedling abasement of England that I think has crept into the campaign to persuade a nation that plainly does not love us to put up with us at least, there lurks a danger. Whatever the result of the referendum, it assuredly leaves the English a bit less fond of Scotland, and the Scots no fonder of England, than before all this started.

We English have seen our politicians and journalists on their knees on our behalf, even as we’ve watched campaigners for a ‘yes’ vote carelessly tossing out insults and false accusations that have sometimes seemed little short of racist. That ghastly second debate in Glasgow organised by the BBC left me within a hair’s breadth of shouting ‘Oh for pity’s sake, go then. Get out of our hair.’ Our patience and our unionism have been tested. In my case, and I suspect that of many others, both have faltered. Everything has soured.

So if it’s ‘yes’ this weekend, the independence negotiations will be handled on the Union side by politicians who feel pretty sore about what has happened, and know their voters feel mildly sore too.

And if it’s a ‘no’, the paradox will be that even as Scotland cleaves to its union with the rest of the United Kingdom, the rest of the United Kingdom turns a little bitterly away. ‘Yes’ or ‘no’ — unless it’s an overwhelming ‘no’ — I as an Englishman will have never felt less affectionately towards Scotland than this weekend.

[noddy]

who is going to tell endo that the current crop of youngens will get old and likewise become risk averse and attached to government safety nets.

i love how all the english haters come out of the closet for this one.

Present day older people lived through WWII and the UK means to them more than it may be expected from younger Scots as they get older. I'm not an English hater. I just believe in the right of nations to be independent. As Scots were until 300 years ago, when the Scottish Parliament voted for an union most people didn't want (historical fact).

every damn thing you have ever ranted about in terms of richer countries paying for socialist benefits for the poorer ones is happening here, *your* figures about those dastardly old people showed this was their primary concern and here you are arguing some "historial facts" about braveheart and blue bottoms.

thats nice, its not what the poor and old people who need the safety nets want and these young kids will lose their idealism, get old and frail, lose their invincibility and want safety nets aswell.

[Endovelico]

who is going to tell endo that the current crop of youngens will get old and likewise become risk averse and attached to government safety nets.

i love how all the english haters come out of the closet for this one.

Present day older people lived through WWII and the UK means to them more than it may be expected from younger Scots as they get older. I'm not an English hater. I just believe in the right of nations to be independent. As Scots were until 300 years ago, when the Scottish Parliament voted for an union most people didn't want (historical fact).

every damn thing you have ever ranted about in terms of richer countries paying for socialist benefits for the poorer ones is happening here, *your* figures about those dastardly old people showed this was their primary concern and here you are arguing some "historial facts" about braveheart and blue bottoms.

thats nice, its not what the poor and old people who need the safety nets want and these young kids will lose their idealism, get old and frail, lose their invincibility and want safety nets aswell.

The reality you prefer not to recognize is that old people in Scotland prevented the younger Scots enjoying the independence they had a right to have, just because they irrationally feared that old age benefits for them in an independent Scotland would be less than in a United Kingdom. There were absolutely no grounds for such fear, the safety net would remain the same, but that didn't stop the older Scots from going ahead and imposing their fears on everybody else. But I believe Scots will have another chance to vote for independence, in a few years time.

[noddy]

im not the one that needs convincing, you might want to ask yourself why you have some magic insight into being old in scotland that old scottish people dont have.

really.

i am a successionist in my country, im always getting told that its a path to ruin and lower economic relevancy, i here tell some people want to join all of europe together as a bigger, more economicaly powerful unit.

[Simple Minded]

Independence is not a matter of right or left.......

True, but it is a matter of perception, and since it is politics, marketing. If TX voted to secede from the US, it would be a right wing victory. If NY voted to secede from the US, it would be a left wing victory. If NYC voted to secede from NYS, it would be a left wing victory. If NYS voted NYC off the island, it would be a right wing victory.

One could argue the old Scotts were right wing, greedy, selfish conservatives because they wanted the benefits they paid for, or that they were left wing selfish, oppressive liberals because they wanted to suck on the teets of the young UKers.

Using of course, US definitions of right, left, liberal, and conservative. Not the same over there I hear.

[Simple Minded]

http://www.spectator.co.uk/columnists/m ... the-scots/

Yes or no, I’ll never feel the same about the Scots
Most English people I know wanted Scotland to stay, but only if the Scots themselves really want to
136 Comments 20 September 2014 Matthew Parris Follow @MatthewParris3
Matthew-Parris

good article. The dangers of perception in a group identity focused world.

Does the picture indicate Duck Dynasty has a large following in Scotland...?

[Simple Minded]

im not the one that needs convincing, you might want to ask yourself why you have some magic insight into being old in scotland that old scottish people dont have.

really.

i am a successionist in my country, im always getting told that its a path to ruin and lower economic relevancy, i here tell some people want to join all of europe together as a bigger, more economicaly powerful unit.

Amen Bro.

"they" never know their own minds as well as "us." those fools!

[Simple Minded]

Ya know, if "they" really wanted to be fair about this....... the same day that Scotland voted yay or nay, the rest of the UK should have had the yay or nay vote also.

Yay - we kick Scotland out of the UK

Nay - we let them stay in the UK

That would have been even more interesting!

[Endovelico]

Pro-independence Scots launch new ‘45%’ campaign

Thousands of pro-independence activists, determined to continue their fight for Scottish statehood, have launched a new campaign called ‘the 45 percent’, despite losing Thursday’s referendum.

The campaign draws its name from the 44.7 percent of the Scottish electorate who voted ‘Yes’ to independence. Although the ‘No’ campaign secured a narrow majority at 55.3 percent, the appetite for a split remains strong.

While it ultimately failed to win the referendum, the ‘Yes’ movement vastly outperformed pro-union activists in its employment of social media. The 45 percent want to sustain the momentum of this grassroots online movement.



Several Facebook pages have rapidly accrued thousands of likes, while #the45 and #wearethe45 are trending on Twitter. A 45 ‘Twibbon’ has replaced the blue ‘Yes’ sticker prominent on supporters’ accounts throughout the campaign.

Still at a disparate and formative stage, with multiple parties and grassroots organizations in its orbit, the 45 percent movement has coalesced around the shared cause of keeping independence on the agenda.

“The British establishment would love nothing more than for the 45 percent to disappear,” reads one page.

“The 45 percent will only grow stronger.”

Initially appealing for crowd funding in order to launch and support food banks, and to create campaign merchandise, the page calls for ideas and input from its supporters, reflecting its grassroots character.

“This idea is a work in progress and will be of course open to suggestions,” it reads. Organizers have procured the45percent.org domain name and @Scotlands45 Twitter handle.

A key figure in the grassroots campaign for independence is former MSP Tommy Sheridan, whose speaking tour, ‘Hope Over Fear’, visited dozens of meetings in the run up to the referendum. As a prominent socialist voice in Scotland, Sheridan has sought to pave a way forward for the movement.

“Over the last couple of days I have been inundated with thousands of Facebook and Twitter messages from disappointed ‘Yes’ supporters looking for a way forward,” Sheridan told his Facebook followers.

“I am encouraged so many have decided to become politically involved and stay politically engaged. Leaving politics to the politicians is a recipe for poor governance.”

Sheridan urged ‘Yes’ supporters to back candidates in local and national elections who support independence and called for another referendum in March 2020. He said the Scottish National Party (SNP) were the most likely candidates to deliver on this.

“Let's punish the reactionary and dishonest ‘No’ parties at the ballot box next May,” said Sheridan. “Let's punish the shameful Labour Party in particular for siding with the bankers, bosses, billionaires and millionaires to try and crush our dream of a new and better Scotland with an avalanche of fear and lies.

“We have youth, energy and hope on our side. Hope can triumph over Fear in 2020,” he added.

Supporters of the 45 percent have been accused of issuing abusive comments against supporters of the union and of anti-English sentiment. Others have said the group should disband and accept the outcome of the referendum.

Differentiating itself from the clashes in Glasgow’s George Square on Friday night, in which 11 were arrested, the 45 percent called on its supporters to avoid getting involved.

The group was present on a demonstration through Dundee on Sunday, and has plans for another on September 27 through Dumbarton.

“Although we have to accept the vote this time, this march is to let people know change is coming, Scotland and the UK will never be the same again,” the Facebook event reads.

“Let’s unite and be part of a brand new political movement, open to all of us who want change, we all know Westminster won't deliver on any new powers for Scotland, we won't stop till we are heard.”

I hope I will be around in 2020 to see it happening!...

[Typhoon]

From a friend in a country that has a long experience with such matters . . .

CBC | Chrétien and Charest reflect on results of Scottish referendum

My understanding is that today in Canada people would rather chew their arm off than endure another Québec referendum.

The last election in Québec apparently became a de facto referendum on independence and the separatists were flushed down the loo.

I recall seeing a statue of Winston Churchill by Toronto City Hall.
My observation was that it should be René Lévesque instead . . .

[Heracleum Persicum]

From a friend in a country that has a long experience with such matters . . .

CBC | Chrétien and Charest reflect on results of Scottish referendum

My understanding is that today in Canada people would rather chew their arm off than endure another Québec referendum.

The last election in Québec apparently became a de facto referendum on independence and the separatists were flushed down the loo.

I recall seeing a statue of Winston Churchill by Toronto City Hall.
My observation was that it should be René Lévesque instead . . .

Anglos in Canada got the message, hired 007 (Pierre Trudeau) and his team (gang of Montreal) .. and .. PAID THE PRICE (Quebec was demanding)

now

it depends

Whether Brits "got the message"

and

ready to pay the PRICE Scots demanding

but

looks to me

Brits want to suck last drop of Oil&Gas out Scotish shores and than "spit it out"

we will C

.

[Endovelico]

From a friend in a country that has a long experience with such matters . . .

CBC | Chrétien and Charest reflect on results of Scottish referendum

My understanding is that today in Canada people would rather chew their arm off than endure another Québec referendum.

The last election in Québec apparently became a de facto referendum on independence and the separatists were flushed down the loo.

I recall seeing a statue of Winston Churchill by Toronto City Hall.
My observation was that it should be René Lévesque instead . . .

You may try to second-guess Scots as much as you want, in a way that fits your own preconceptions... In the end they will be the ones to decide of their future, not you. As I have mentioned before, I think you are a lot more qualified to assess what the people of Okinawa want than what Scots or Catalans really want or should want... And, by the way, the last thing they need is being patronized by outsiders...

[Typhoon]

From a friend in a country that has a long experience with such matters . . .

CBC | Chrétien and Charest reflect on results of Scottish referendum

My understanding is that today in Canada people would rather chew their arm off than endure another Québec referendum.

The last election in Québec apparently became a de facto referendum on independence and the separatists were flushed down the loo.

I recall seeing a statue of Winston Churchill by Toronto City Hall.
My observation was that it should be René Lévesque instead . . .

You may try to second-guess Scots as much as you want, in a way that fits your own preconceptions... In the end they will be the ones to decide of their future, not you. As I have mentioned before, I think you are a lot more qualified to assess what the people of Okinawa want than what Scots or Catalans really want or should want... And, by the way, the last thing they need is being patronized by outsiders...

So says an outsider

[Endovelico]

From a friend in a country that has a long experience with such matters . . .

CBC | Chrétien and Charest reflect on results of Scottish referendum

My understanding is that today in Canada people would rather chew their arm off than endure another Québec referendum.

The last election in Québec apparently became a de facto referendum on independence and the separatists were flushed down the loo.

I recall seeing a statue of Winston Churchill by Toronto City Hall.
My observation was that it should be René Lévesque instead . . .

You may try to second-guess Scots as much as you want, in a way that fits your own preconceptions... In the end they will be the ones to decide of their future, not you. As I have mentioned before, I think you are a lot more qualified to assess what the people of Okinawa want than what Scots or Catalans really want or should want... And, by the way, the last thing they need is being patronized by outsiders...

So says an outsider

As an European, I am not an outsider. Those who want a free and autonomous Europe realize that the first step towards that goal is ensuring all European nations are equally free and sovereign. Only when all peoples who have a strong sense of identity are free and sovereign can we build a strong confederacy of equals, capable of prospering, of defending ourselves, of furthering our civilization. Your wishes for two classes of peoples in Europe, the free and the dependent, border on the unfriendly.

[Simple Minded]

From a friend in a country that has a long experience with such matters . . .

CBC | Chrétien and Charest reflect on results of Scottish referendum

My understanding is that today in Canada people would rather chew their arm off than endure another Québec referendum.

The last election in Québec apparently became a de facto referendum on independence and the separatists were flushed down the loo.

I recall seeing a statue of Winston Churchill by Toronto City Hall.
My observation was that it should be René Lévesque instead . . .

You may try to second-guess Scots as much as you want, in a way that fits your own preconceptions... In the end they will be the ones to decide of their future, not you. As I have mentioned before, I think you are a lot more qualified to assess what the people of Okinawa want than what Scots or Catalans really want or should want... And, by the way, the last thing they need is being patronized by outsiders...

So says an outsider

Typhoon,

"WE" in the West would not expect "YOU" to understand.

Reverse patronage is not patronizing!!!

Now, please stop being a binoid. It is not very becoming!

[Typhoon]

From a friend in a country that has a long experience with such matters . . .

CBC | Chrétien and Charest reflect on results of Scottish referendum

My understanding is that today in Canada people would rather chew their arm off than endure another Québec referendum.

The last election in Québec apparently became a de facto referendum on independence and the separatists were flushed down the loo.

I recall seeing a statue of Winston Churchill by Toronto City Hall.
My observation was that it should be René Lévesque instead . . .

You may try to second-guess Scots as much as you want, in a way that fits your own preconceptions... In the end they will be the ones to decide of their future, not you. As I have mentioned before, I think you are a lot more qualified to assess what the people of Okinawa want than what Scots or Catalans really want or should want... And, by the way, the last thing they need is being patronized by outsiders...

So says an outsider

As an European, I am not an outsider. Those who want a free and autonomous Europe realize that the first step towards that goal is ensuring all European nations are equally free and sovereign. Only when all peoples who have a strong sense of identity are free and sovereign can we build a strong confederacy of equals, capable of prospering, of defending ourselves, of furthering our civilization. Your wishes for two classes of peoples in Europe, the free and the dependent, border on the unfriendly.

It's not only possible, but probable, that you want and what the rest of Europe wants are two entirely different things.

[Endovelico]

It's not only possible, but probable, that you want and what the rest of Europe wants are two entirely different things.

And you are definitely the best judge of that... Banzai!!!

[Endovelico]

Scottish Referendum Gives Reasons to be Hopeful
Written by Ron Paul - Sunday September 28, 2014

Even though it ultimately failed at the ballot box, the recent campaign for Scottish independence should cheer supporters of the numerous secession movements springing up around the globe.

In the weeks leading up to the referendum, it appeared that the people of Scotland were poised to vote to secede from the United Kingdom. Defeating the referendum required British political elites to co-opt secession forces by promising greater self-rule for Scotland, as well as launching a massive campaign to convince the Scots that secession would plunge them into economic depression.

The people of Scotland were even warned that secession would damage the international market for one of Scotland’s main exports, whiskey. Considering the lengths to which opponents went to discredit secession, it is amazing that almost 45 percent of the Scottish people still voted in favor of it.

The Scottish referendum result has done little to discourage other secessionist movements spreading across Europe, in countries ranging from Norway to Italy. Just days after the Scottish referendum, the people of Catalonia voted to hold their own referendum measuring popular support for secession from Spain.

Support for secession is also growing in America. According to a recent poll, one in four Americans would support their state seceding from the federal government. Movements and organizations advocating that state governments secede from the federal government, that local governments secede from state governments, or that local governments secede from both the federal and state governments, are springing up around the country. This year, over one million Californians signed a ballot access petition in support of splitting California into six states. While the proposal did not meet the requirements necessary to appear on the ballot, the effort to split California continues to gain support.

Americans who embrace secession are acting in a grand American tradition. The Declaration of Independence was written to justify secession from Britain. Supporters of liberty should cheer the growth in support for secession, as it is the ultimate rejection of centralized government and the ideologies of Keynesianism, welfarism, and militarism.

Widespread acceptance of the principle of peaceful secession and self-determination could resolve many ongoing conflicts. For instance, allowing the people of eastern Ukraine and western Ukraine to decide for themselves whether to spilt into two separate nations may be the only way to resolve their differences.

The possibility that people will break away from an oppressive government is one of the most effective checks on the growth of government. It is no coincidence that the transformation of America from a limited republic to a monolithic welfare-warfare state coincided with the discrediting of secession as an appropriate response to excessive government.

Devolving government into smaller units promotes economic growth. The smaller the size of government, the less power it has to hobble free enterprise with taxes and regulations.

Just because people do not wish to live under the same government does not mean they are unwilling or unable to engage in mutually beneficial trade. By eliminating political conflicts, secession could actually make people more interested in trading with each other. Decentralizing government power would thus promote true free trade as opposed to "managed trade” controlled by bureaucrats, politicians, and special interests.

Devolution of power to smaller levels of government should also make it easier for individuals to use a currency of their choice, instead of a currency favored by central bankers and politicians.

The growth of support for secession should cheer all supporters of freedom, as devolving power to smaller units of government is one of the best ways to guarantee peace, property, liberty — and even cheap whiskey!

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/fe ... peful.aspx

To the attention of Typhoon. One doesn't have to be European - as Ron Paul isn't - to understand what it is all about...

[Parodite]

Holding referendums on secession are great. But the devil is in the details and questions not asked.

If a majority of group X (Scotts or others) does vote for secession but the national government doesn't recognize the vote.. or wants a full national referendum too, which then might yield a No...then what? Be angry? Start an armed separatist revolt?

These crucial follow-up questions are always left out which is pretty dumbass and recipe for various sh*t.

[Endovelico]

Holding referendums on secession are great. But the devil is in the details and questions not asked.

If a majority of group X (Scotts or others) does vote for secession but the national government doesn't recognize the vote.. or wants a full national referendum too, which then might yield a No...then what? Be angry? Start an armed separatist revolt?

These crucial follow-up questions are always left out which is pretty dumbass and recipe for various sh*t.

If the national government doesn't recognize the vote and the region secedes nevertheless, what will the government do? Use the armed forces to stop the region from seceding?... Pretty funny, in this time and age...

[Parodite]

Holding referendums on secession are great. But the devil is in the details and questions not asked.

If a majority of group X (Scotts or others) does vote for secession but the national government doesn't recognize the vote.. or wants a full national referendum too, which then might yield a No...then what? Be angry? Start an armed separatist revolt?

These crucial follow-up questions are always left out which is pretty dumbass and recipe for various sh*t.

If the national government doesn't recognize the vote and the region secedes nevertheless, what will the government do? Use the armed forces to stop the region from seceding?... Pretty funny, in this time and age...

Exactly. These actions and possible reactions need to be considered and answered before going on that track. Just good planning versus bad planning.

[Parodite]

Exactly. These actions and possible reactions need to be considered and answered before going on that track. Just good planning versus bad planning.

Add.

Consider this scenario. If I were Scottish I would probably vote Yes for secession. For the same reasons Endo supports it. I dislike monolithic political and economic powers. A more diverse and decentralized patchwork of equal players serves my libertarian instincts.

However... since the UK democracy and government is not bad at all, even though its attitude is patronizing but not being an Assad or Stalinist gang... I would not want to spill one precious human life over it. So an armed revolt in case of a UK gvt not recognizing the vote.. or a full national No vote... is simply out of the question for me.

Bad planning... because then a hard core separatist core may go militant and set in motion a violent escalation that I vehemently oppose. By not asking and answering these questions too in advance, the Yes movement will split between people willing to use violence, and those who reject using violence. All you will end up with is another Northern Ireland where human lives are wasted and hatred instilled for potentially many generations with nothing gained at all.