Mass Migrations

Simple Minded

Re: Mass Migrations

Post by Simple Minded »

Thanks for posting Alexis & Monster. This part reminded me of the current zeitgeist in some parts of America:

"For about a week now, 500 migrants and refugees are being housed in the gym in our neighborhood. So I went over there because I wanted to see the conditions there with my own eyes. There were about ten vehicles belonging to the Red Cross and volunteers.

"Older men over 60 were unloading tables and benches from the trucks, cleaning them with a bucket of water and cloth, and then carrying them into the hall....

"What made me really angry was to see the incredible lethargy of the young men. All of them in their 20s and 30s, all sitting there, smoking and looking at their cell phones, while the 60-year-old volunteers where laboring away....

"While I was watching how the Red Cross volunteers were working and no one was helping them, I saw an unbelievable situation: an elderly gentleman was trying to carry a table into the hall when a refugee returned from the city center with a shopping bag. The elderly volunteer lifted the table halfway, looked at the migrant and moved his head asking the migrant to lend a hand. The migrant paused for a moment and then just walked away. I could hardly believe what I saw."


It seems that the culture of the parents of today's 60 somethings was very different than the culture of the parents of today's 20 somethings in many parts of the world.

30-40 years ago, when a problem was encountered, I remember a popular response was: "Well, don't make a Federal case out of it!" The premise was stop being a wimp and deal with it.

Seems different now....

IIRC, a friend told me of a TV show in the 1980's called Max Headroom. The premise was that people would be controlled via signals sent over television sets.

boy were they wrong! ;)
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Re: Mass Migrations

Post by YMix »

Simple Minded wrote:"What made me really angry was to see the incredible lethargy of the young men. All of them in their 20s and 30s, all sitting there, smoking and looking at their cell phones, while the 60-year-old volunteers where laboring away....
I'd call this the natural state of young (and not so young) men coming from very masculine cultures/places where women do all the housework and the precious young men are waited on. I've seen the same thing in Romania, mainly among the small town/rural people. These young men tend to marry fast not because of lofty ideas of family, but because they refuse to do all the chores that come with living alone (not that they would know how to clean or cook anyway).
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Simple Minded

Re: Mass Migrations

Post by Simple Minded »

YMix wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:"What made me really angry was to see the incredible lethargy of the young men. All of them in their 20s and 30s, all sitting there, smoking and looking at their cell phones, while the 60-year-old volunteers where laboring away....
I'd call this the natural state of young (and not so young) men coming from very masculine cultures/places where women do all the housework and the precious young men are waited on. I've seen the same thing in Romania, mainly among the small town/rural people. These young men tend to marry fast not because of lofty ideas of family, but because they refuse to do all the chores that come with living alone (not that they would know how to clean or cook anyway).
To correct the record, that was not a quote from me, but from the referenced article.

I agree with you 100%, not only young man from cultures where the men are waited on by the women, but also very prosperous cultures, where even into their 30's, the "children" are still special snowflakes, for whom the parents can not do enough.


Those who grew up in the depression, for some reason, tended to not treat their children as royalty. Perhaps they could not afford to do so.

Currently, it is rare to see teenagers doing yardwork, or household chores. In the 60s's/70's, it was rare to see parents doing household chores. It blows away those of us raised by hardassed parents.
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Peaceful Refugees in Europe

Post by Alexis »

Image

Image

Image


Hey, don't you worry! These are <cough, cough>... moderates.
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"Interesting" videos on migrants' phones...

Post by Alexis »

Hungarian TV reports on videos found on phones abandoned by migrants (with English subtitles)

Interesting, these videos are...

With comments from a psychologist specialized in criminals.


7NSKjY4QsKQ
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Re: Peaceful Refugees in Europe

Post by Typhoon »

Alexis wrote: . . .

Image

Hey, don't you worry! These are <cough, cough>... moderates.
Compared to the Europeans, these fellows are rank amateurs. :wink:

The real question is are such individuals outliers or the max peak mode of the current refugee population.
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Re: Peaceful Refugees in Europe

Post by Alexis »

Typhoon wrote:Compared to the Europeans, these fellows are rank amateurs. :wink:

The real question is are such individuals outliers or the max peak mode of the current refugee population.
They have not yet reach the peak of European performance... of the past. As far as present performance goes, I am happy to let them be in front and don't intend to contest them the title.

That is the question indeed. A question I am not in any hurry to find the answer. Distressingly, Germans might discover it soon.



In other news, here is a group of immigrants demonstrating in a little Germany city to say "thank you Germany for your welcome"

Note that in Arabic, this is translated as "Allahu Akbar", but must be chanted wearing masks and holding sticks. Some local cultural tradition, I have to assume.

W2QcffxADHY
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Die Osteuropäer haben kein Schamgefühl

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.

Die Welt
Das herzlose Verhalten und die kaltschnäuzige Rhetorik sind beispiellos.


.

Während sich Tausende von Flüchtlingen über Europa ergießen, um den Schrecken des Krieges zu entkommen, und viele von ihnen bei dem Versuch sterben, spielt sich in einigen der neuesten Mitgliedstaaten der Europäischen Union eine andere Art von Tragödie ab.

Diese Staaten, die gemeinsam als Osteuropa bekannt sind und zu denen auch mein Geburtsland Polen gehört, haben sich als intolerant, engherzig und fremdenfeindlich erwiesen. Sie sind nicht in der Lage, sich an den Geist der Solidarität zu erinnern, der sie vor einem Vierteljahrhundert in die Freiheit geführt hat.

Es sind die gleichen Gesellschaften, die vor und nach dem Fall des Kommunismus die "Rückkehr nach Europa" ausriefen und stolz erklärten, sie teilten die Werte des Kontinents. Aber für was, glauben sie, steht Europa ?

Seit 1989 – und insbesondere seit ihrem Beitritt zur EU im Jahr 2004 – haben sie enorme finanzielle Transferleistungen durch die europäischen Struktur- und Zusammenhaltsfonds erhalten. Und heute sind sie nicht bereit, irgend etwas zur Lösung der größten Flüchtlingskrise Europas seit dem Zweiten Weltkrieg beizutragen.


2000 Flüchtlinge in Polen bei 40 Millionen Einwohnern

Ganz offensichtlich hat die Regierung Ungarns, eines EU-Mitgliedstaates, vor den Augen der ganzen Welt Tausende von Flüchtlingen misshandelt. Ministerpräsident Viktor Orbán sieht keinen Grund dafür, sich anders zu verhalten: Er besteht darauf, die Flüchtlinge seien kein europäisches Problem, sondern ein deutsches. Zudem sagt er, es gebe kein "Grundrecht auf ein besseres Leben".

Orbán steht mit seiner Ansicht nicht allein. Sogar die katholischen Bischöfe Ungarns folgen ihm. Laszlo Kiss-Rigo, Bischof von Szeged-Csanad, meint, muslimische Migranten beabsichtigten eine "Übernahme", und der Papst, der jede katholische Gemeinde in Europa aufgefordert hatte, eine Flüchtlingsfamilie aufzunehmen, erkenne "die Lage nicht".

In Polen, einem Land mit 40 Millionen Menschen, hat sich die Regierung bereit erklärt, 2000 Flüchtlinge aufzunehmen, aber nur Christen. Auch die Slowakei hat ähnliche Bedingungen gestellt.

Ein polnischer Journalist hat gegenüber dem National Public Radio der Vereinigten Staaten behauptet, Flüchtlinge seien kein osteuropäisches Problem, da sich diese Länder nie der Entscheidung zur Bombardierung Libyens angeschlossen hätten (aber auch Deutschland hat dies nicht).

Hat man die eigene Auswanderungsgeschichte vergessen?

Haben die Osteuropäer kein Schamgefühl? Seit Jahrhunderten sind ihre Vorfahren massenweise ausgewandert, um materiellem Elend und politischer Verfolgung zu entkommen. Und heute spielen das herzlose Verhalten und die kaltschnäuzige Rhetorik ihrer Politiker dem Populismus in die Hände.

In der Tat veröffentlicht die Onlineausgabe von Polens größter Zeitung, "Gazeta Wyborcza", jetzt nach dem Ende jedes Artikels über Flüchtlinge den folgenden Schlusssatz: "Aufgrund des außergewöhnlich aggressiven Inhalts vieler Kommentare, die sich ungesetzlicherweise für Gewalt aussprechen und rassistischen, ethnischen und religiösen Hass verbreiten, ist das Verfassen von Kommentaren derzeit nicht möglich."

Vor noch nicht allzu langer Zeit, in den Jahren direkt nach dem Krieg, flohen osteuropäische, jüdische Überlebende des Holocaust vor dem mörderischen Antisemitismus ihrer polnischen, ungarischen, slowakischen und rumänischen Nachbarn ausgerechnet nach Deutschland, in die Sicherheit der Vertriebenenlager.

Der Titel eines wichtigen Buches der Historikerin Ruth Gay über diese 250.000 Überlebenden lautet "Safe Among The Germans" (Sicher unter den Deutschen). Auch heute finden muslimische Flüchtlinge und Überlebende anderer Kriege keine Zuflucht in Osteuropa und fliehen in die deutsche Sicherheit.

Polens hässliches Gesicht rührt aus der Nazi-Zeit

In diesem Fall ist die Geschichte keine Metapher. Im Gegenteil: Die Wurzel des osteuropäischen Verhaltens, das gerade sein hässliches Gesicht zeigt, geht direkt auf den Zweiten Weltkrieg und die Zeit danach zurück.

Die Polen beispielsweise waren zwar zu Recht stolz auf den Widerstand ihrer Gesellschaft gegen die Nazis, haben aber tatsächlich während des Krieges mehr Juden als Deutsche getötet.

Obwohl die polnischen Katholiken während der Nazi-Besatzung grausam litten, konnten sie für die Hauptopfer des Nazismus nur wenig Mitgefühl aufbringen. Wie sich Józef Mackiewicz, ein konservativer, antikommunistischer polnischer Schriftsteller mit makelloser patriotischer Einstellung, ausdrückte:

"Während der Besatzung gab es buchstäblich keine einzige Person, die nicht einmal die folgende Aussage gehört hätte: 'Eine Sache hat Hitler richtig gemacht hat, nämlich die Juden auszurotten.' Aber öffentlich hätte man sich so nicht geäußert."

Antisemitismus ist immer noch nicht aufgearbeitet

Natürlich gab es auch Polen, die während des Krieges Juden geholfen haben. Tatsächlich ist die Anzahl der polnischen "Gerechten unter den Völkern", die im israelischen Yad Vashem für ihre Heldenhaftigkeit während des Krieges ausgezeichnet wurden, unter allen europäischen Nationalitäten die größte (was nicht überrascht, da Polen vor dem Krieg die Heimat der mit Abstand größten jüdischen Gemeinde in ganz Europa war).

Aber diese bemerkenswerten Individuen haben normalerweise allein und gegen die vorherrschenden sozialen Normen gehandelt. Sie waren Außenseiter, die noch lang nach dem Ende des Krieges ihr Heldentum vor ihren Nachbarn geheim gehalten haben – anscheinend aus Angst, sie könnten sonst von ihren eigenen Gemeinschaften gemieden, bedroht und geächtet werden.

Alle besetzten europäischen Gesellschaften haben sich in gewissem Ausmaß an den Bemühungen der Nazis zur Vernichtung der Juden beteiligt. Jede von ihnen hat einen anderen Beitrag dazu geleistet, abhängig von den länderspezifischen Umständen und den Bedingungen der deutschen Besatzung.

Aber am schlimmsten hat der Holocaust in Osteuropa gewütet, was an der schieren Anzahl von Juden in dieser Region und der unvergleichlichen Grausamkeit der Nazi-Besatzungsregimes lag.

Angela Merkel hat Führerschaft bewiesen

Nach dem Ende des Krieges hatte Deutschland – aufgrund der Entnazifizierung durch die Siegermächte und seiner Verantwortung für die Planung und Ausführung des Holocaust – keine andere Wahl, als sich durch seine mörderische Vergangenheit "durchzuarbeiten".

Dies war ein langer, schwieriger Prozess, aber die deutsche Gesellschaft, die sich ihrer historischen Untaten bewusst war, hat dadurch gelernt, sich moralischen und politischen Herausforderungen wie dem momentanen Zufluss an Flüchtlingen zu stellen.

Und Kanzlerin Angela Merkel hat in der Flüchtlingskrise eine Art von Führerschaft bewiesen, die allen osteuropäischen Politikern zur Schande gereicht.

Osteuropa dagegen muss seine mörderische Vergangenheit erst noch aufarbeiten. Nur wenn dies geschieht, können die Menschen dort ihre Pflicht zur Rettung derjenigen erkennen, die vor einen schlimmen Schicksal fliehen.

.

YMix,

Jan Tomasz Gross, a US Princeton University professor of history and sociology, who is of Polish origin : Poles “actually killed more Jews than Germans” during WWII.


That's what Azari sayin last 50 yrs.

Poor Angela, poor Angela


.
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Re: Die Osteuropäer haben kein Schamgefühl

Post by Alexis »

Eastern Europeans just have similar attitudes to all the Chinese, Japanese, Russians, Indians et al. who are not interested in large numbers of migrants from countries where Jihadism runs wild. Northern and Southern Americans, British and even the French have only a tad bit more moderate attitudes.

A large number of Germans, and certainly a majority of their political and media elites, have a screw loose.

My opinion is that this German foolishness will not last for long, because they will get the consequences before long, and they won't like them. I hope consequences by then will not be so severe as to create a new discontinuity in German history.

But then, it's the Germans, and it's their country. What can I say? To each his own.
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Is it beginning?

Post by Alexis »

Very interesting article on the English version of Der Spiegel (Germany's premier newsmagazine) about the revival and radicalization of anti-Islam and anti-migrants movement Pegida.

Not only that movement was losing (much) force and it is back with a vengeance, it's also radicalizing: mock-gallows erected for Merkel and her vice-chancellor Gabriel, call on soldiers to disobey orders and stop migrants at the border... :shock:

German political scene is becoming quite radical. On migrants, the German chancellor - from a right wing party - is far left. While Pegida is more extreme than most other anti-immigrants movements in Europe.

In summary: is it beginning already? :(
Pegida is back, apparently more powerful than ever. (...) Attendance at Pegida protests, which has taken place every Monday in Dresden and other cities for almost a year had waned to the point of insignificance. But a week ago on Monday, some 10,000 people took to the streets of Dresden, almost as many as during the peak of the protests last winter.(...) One protestor even carried a mock gallows with nooses attached to signs indicating they were reserved for Merkel and Gabriel. And Pegida co-founder Bachmann described the German government in a speech as "our dictators in Berlin." (...) Tatjana Festerling, a candidate representing the Pegida movement who scored almost 10 percent of the vote in Dresden mayoral elections in June, recently claimed at a demonstration recently, "We're already at war."
(...)
In earlier days, Pegida members often derided the media as the "lying press," but those calls, increasingly, are being supplanted by actual physical attacks on journalists. (...) Officials at MDR, which is the public broadcaster for Saxony, Thuringia and Saxony-Anhalt, have reported insults, vandalism and physical attacks by Pegida supporters at all of their state studios and say the number of incidents is growing, particularly in Saxony.
(...)
In the right-wing magazine Compact, Jürgen Elsässer, a writer who speaks at Pegida events, issued a call to arms to Germany's armed forces to resist the government. "In this situation, it is up to you, soldiers of the Bundeswehr: Fulfill your oath and protect the German people and the liberal and democratic order! Occupy the border stations, above all the border train stations, and close all possible crossings, particularly from the South. Don't wait for orders from above!"
(...)
During the first nine months of this year, the BKA registered more than 400 attacks on asylum-seeker hostels. For all of 2014, there were only around 200 such attacks. (...) The Federal Prosecutor's Office in Karlsruhe has opened an investigation into the head of the Munich group, Heinz Meyer, under the suspicion of establishing a terrorist organization. Meyer, who says the accusation is "baseless," is believed to have had contact with Martin Wiese, a notorious neo-Nazi and convicted right-wing terrorist.
(...)
"Something is heading our way," says one high-ranking member of German domestic intelligence. "We need to try and stop it."
(more at the link...)
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Re: Mass Migrations

Post by Typhoon »

May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
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Re: Mass Migrations

Post by YMix »

PMs: Bulgaria, Serbia and Romania will close their borders if the West stops taking refugees

“If Germany, Austria and other countries close their borders, we will not allow our nations to become a buffer zone. We will be ready in the same way to close ours,” Bulgarian Prime Minister Boiko Borissov said after a trilateral meeting in Sofia on October 24 with his Romanian counterpart Victor Ponta and Serbia’s Aleksandar Vučić.

The Craiova Troika, as the meeting of the three countries’ heads of government is termed, met in the Bulgarian capital at the initiative of Borissov, ahead of an October 25 EU Leaders Meeting called by European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker to discuss a response to the huge flow of migrants through the Balkans.

The Bulgarian Prime Minister convened the meeting in Sofia for the three prime ministers to discuss the migrant crisis and energy issues in the region.

Borissov said that Bulgaria, Romania and Serbia, even though Serbia is not an EU member state but was behaving with full responsibility as if it were one, were showing that they were much better prepared than other EU countries.

He said that Bulgaria and Romania were by far better at guarding the Schengen borders, at least half of them. Huge waves of refugees were going through Greece and Macedonia into Bulgaria’s neighbouring country, Serbia, Borissov said.

“The problem with barriers in Hungary is creating buffers,” Borissov said.

“All three countries are ready, if Germany, Austria and other countries close their borders, we will not leave our people to become a buffer zone. We will be ready in the same way to close ours. We will not put our countries under the devastating pressures of refugee waves.”

He said that agreements with Turkey should be supported , “to keep millions out there, on Turkish territory”.

A look at the map of Europe would show that Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia and Greece would remain a buffer zone between Turkey and the EU, Borissov said.

“The boosted construction of fences in Europe worries us. We declare that they have our full European solidarity, but we are not blind and if more countries go over to this experiment of closing borders, leaving refugees with us, we will not agree. It’s not about money,” he said.

Serbian PM Vučić told the joint news conference after the meeting, “We have the most difficult problems – the highest number of refugees passed through Serbia. Refugees kept on coming from two directions . Serbia did not complain and did not ask for anything and received nothing”.

“Co-operation with Bulgaria and Romania is more important for us. We will achieve this kind of stability we need. We back a more tolerant attitude. We will observe the decisions the troika makes and they will be in force when we can comply with what the other European countries do, more concretely Germany and Austria,” Vučić said, adding that he believes that Bulgaria, Romania, and Serbia will manage to preserve regional stability.

Romania’s Ponta said that “the three countries have a common strategy as of today and this is highly important. If we speak today about the migrant crisis, we, the three countries, want to have also a common strategy for the energy sector and the Schengen Area. Thus our three voices will be better heard when together than when they are separate”.
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Simple Minded

Re: Mass Migrations

Post by Simple Minded »

YMix,

we got the same problem in America. All the pols who are pro-illegal immigration, aren't taking any of them into their own houses. Weird, huh?

everybody is fine with being a thruway, no one wants to be a destination.

Tricky business that compassion stuff.
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Re: Mass Migrations

Post by YMix »

Actually, this would be a good time to put that compassion criticism aside and look at the big picture. This is not about the migrants, it's about the relationship between the Western European majors and the CEE minors. Some weeks ago, the Visegrád Group rejected the idea of mandatory quotas. Yesterday, the We Don't Have a Group announced that they would not foot the bill for Western Europe's stupid adventures, although this is quite likely an indirect strike against Hungary. Today, a sort of summit is held in Brussels, at Jean-Claude Juncker's initiative. The minors will all represented. It will be interesting to see what comes of it. Primarily, I would say that, since Western Europe has failed to provide leadership, the minors are organizing a response based on the principle that "most of these people either go to Western Europe or back where they came from".

Another amusing fact: President Iohannis announced that PM Ponta had gone to Sofia on his own, without a mandate and without the power to make any promises on behalf of the country. Iohannis added that he does not feel bound by the PM's statements. Since the Sofia meeting was aimed at Germany and Austria and since Iohannis obviously belongs to the Saxon minority and counts on it to ingratiate himself with certain people (cough Merkel cough), I wonder if Ponta had deliberately tried to undermine him ahead of the summit.
Leaders from Central Europe and the Balkans are due to hold an emergency summit to discuss the migrant crisis.

A draft statement leaked ahead of the meeting calls on countries to stop waving through migrants without the agreement of their neighbours.

Bottlenecks have formed, leaving thousands out in the cold at night.

European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker, who called the meeting, told German newspaper Bild: "Every day counts."

If no agreement is reached, he added, "we will soon see families in cold rivers in the Balkans perish miserably".

Leaders from Austria, Bulgaria, Croatia, Macedonia, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Romania, Serbia and Slovenia, are taking part in the summit.

The draft statement calls for the "gradual and controlled" movement of people through the migration route.

It also proposes to bolster EU patrols at Greece's borders and to send 400 extra guards to Slovenia.
Balkan bottlenecks

Hungary announced it was closing its borders with Serbia and Croatia last weekend.

As a result, Slovenia saw 58,000 arrivals in the week leading up to Saturday, and many people are waiting in wet and cold conditions.

The Slovenian government has accused Croatia of deliberately dumping thousands of migrants on the border.

Croatia says it has no choice because Slovenia is allowing far less into the country than it should be.

Fears of Germany and Austria closing their own borders have led Bulgaria, Romania and Serbia to threaten to do so.

Bulgarian Prime Minister Boyko Borisov said the three countries would not "become buffer zones".

Slovenia's President Borut Pahor said on his Facebook page, Mr Pahor said the success of Sunday's summit would be measured partly on whether stricter controls are implemented to stop migrants travelling from Turkey to Greece.

Croatian Prime Minister Zoran Milanovic said such controls were the only solution. "Everything else is a waste of time," he said.

The International Organization for Migration said that more than 9,000 migrants arrived in Greece every day last week - the highest rate so far this year.

Most of the migrants - including many refugees from the conflicts in Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan - want to reach Germany to claim asylum.

Germany says it expects to take in 800,000 asylum seekers this year.
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Re: Mass Migrations

Post by noddy »

YMix wrote:Actually, this would be a good time to put that compassion criticism aside and look at the big picture. This is not about the migrants, it's about the relationship between the Western European majors and the CEE minors. Some weeks ago, the Visegrád Group rejected the idea of mandatory quotas. Yesterday, the We Don't Have a Group announced that they would not foot the bill for Western Europe's stupid adventures, although this is quite likely an indirect strike against Hungary. Today, a sort of summit is held in Brussels, at Jean-Claude Juncker's initiative. The minors will all represented. It will be interesting to see what comes of it. Primarily, I would say that, since Western Europe has failed to provide leadership, the minors are organizing a response based on the principle that "most of these people either go to Western Europe or back where they came from".
western europe now relies on eastern europe and the americans to keep it isolated from the nasty bits of maintaining a nation state, they cant provide leadership, its part of the post ww2 rejection of such things.

its eastern europes job to get rid of the middle easterners as they arrive, its western europes job to cry crocodile tears at the inhumanity of it.

western europe can then use that as an example of how eastern europe isnt ready to be a full member of the civilised world, its a brilliant plan.
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Re: Mass Migrations

Post by Typhoon »

noddy wrote:
YMix wrote:Actually, this would be a good time to put that compassion criticism aside and look at the big picture. This is not about the migrants, it's about the relationship between the Western European majors and the CEE minors. Some weeks ago, the Visegrád Group rejected the idea of mandatory quotas. Yesterday, the We Don't Have a Group announced that they would not foot the bill for Western Europe's stupid adventures, although this is quite likely an indirect strike against Hungary. Today, a sort of summit is held in Brussels, at Jean-Claude Juncker's initiative. The minors will all represented. It will be interesting to see what comes of it. Primarily, I would say that, since Western Europe has failed to provide leadership, the minors are organizing a response based on the principle that "most of these people either go to Western Europe or back where they came from".
western europe now relies on eastern europe and the americans to keep it isolated from the nasty bits of maintaining a nation state, they cant provide leadership, its part of the post ww2 rejection of such things.

its eastern europes job to get rid of the middle easterners as they arrive, its western europes job to cry crocodile tears at the inhumanity of it.

western europe can then use that as an example of how eastern europe isnt ready to be a full member of the civilised world, its a brilliant plan.
Yeah.

Meanwhile, Japan is putting it's ninja skills to use to stay invisible with regards to this issue.

Japanball is invisible ball.
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Re: Mass Migrations

Post by YMix »

“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
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Re: Mass Migrations

Post by YMix »

Small steps, sharp retorts: Europe's rifts laid bare in Brussels
By Lucy Williamson BBC News, Brussels

After a mini-summit, European leaders have agreed steps to strengthen border controls along Greek and Slovenian borders, to try and slow the movement of refugees and migrants through the region.

There was grumbling, there was pleading, and there were several sharp retorts.

It was sometimes hard to remember that all the leaders who turned up here professed to want the same thing: an end to the chaos that increasingly marks the migration route through the Western Balkans.

They don't agree on the way to do it.

European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker, who called the meeting, was hoping to rekindle a spirit of co-operation and trust that would allow countries to co-ordinate with each other - taking time to register new arrivals, and not simply waving them through to their next destination, or, as Slovenia has put it, "dumping" them on their border.

The pressure is real: 9,000 people a day have been crossing into Greece. And on Sunday alone, the government of Slovenia - a country of two million - said 15,000 people arrived at their border.

Without agreeing concrete steps soon, its Prime Minister Miro Cerar said Europe "will start to fall apart".

It's already splintering.

Deep rifts have opened up in the region, as the number of migrants has increased, and Mr Juncker's new proposals to strengthen Schengen's external borders in Greece and Slovenia play into national fears, as countries further along the route fear being turned into buffer zones.

In the story of Europe's migrant crisis, one nation's protection becomes another nation's problem.

In the end, he got a watered-down version of the co-operation he'd been hoping for: a commitment from countries to inform their neighbours before sending migrants and refugees their way, and to make an effort to process them properly.

In return, he promised extra border police for Greece and Slovenia, and 100,000 new places at reception centres along the West Balkans route.

Was it worth it?

Even before the meeting began, Croatia's Prime Minister Zoran Milanovic labelled the plan "unrealistic", drafted by someone "who had just woken up from a months-long sleep". The solution, he said, lay in Turkey and Greece.

It's a sentiment echoed by many of the leaders here - that without action from Turkey in stemming the number of people crossing its border into Greece, anything else is just tinkering around the edges.

The German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, acknowledged that the meeting was about managing the situation rather than tackling the root cause; any real solution, she said, would have to involve Ankara.

So was it all worth it? The Serbian Prime Minister, Aleksander Vucic, summed it up. One of the optimists going in to the meeting, he was the first to speak after it broke up.

Standing slack-limbed in front of the microphone, he told waiting reporters that the agreement would not be "immediately helpful". We're looking at "small steps," he said.

"Hopefully, step by step, things will get a bit better."
No decisions, no results.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
Simple Minded

Re: Mass Migrations

Post by Simple Minded »

Typhoon wrote:
Yeah.

Meanwhile, Japan is putting it's ninja skills to use to stay invisible with regards to this issue.

Japanball is invisible ball.
Now I understand why you guys were publishing all those scientific papers about Fukashima radiation was causing Japanese women to grow three testicles..... I think the medical condition was called HilaryClintonitus.......

you yellow devils are tricky... ;)
Last edited by Simple Minded on Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Simple Minded

Re: Mass Migrations

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote:
western europe now relies on eastern europe and the americans to keep it isolated from the nasty bits of maintaining a nation state, they cant provide leadership, its part of the post ww2 rejection of such things.

its eastern europes job to get rid of the middle easterners as they arrive, its western europes job to cry crocodile tears at the inhumanity of it.

western europe can then use that as an example of how eastern europe isnt ready to be a full member of the civilised world, its a brilliant plan.
we were hoping Texas would be enough to keep the South Americas out of the US, so far, it ain't working. Hopefully, Canada won't get that fence built anytime soon. Course, now that winter is coming, they might not need it.
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YMix
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Re: Mass Migrations

Post by YMix »

You could say that this migration situation is the European version of the Mexico drug war, a problem outsourced by a more powerful country to its weaker neighbors.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
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Parodite
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Re: Mass Migrations

Post by Parodite »

In general, I'd say, that all these problems are the result of politicians both in Western and Eastern Europe not anticipating in time the mass migrations to come. We are all too late. The usual finger pointing.. well that's Europe in a nut shell... too.
Deep down I'm very superficial
Simple Minded

Re: Mass Migrations

Post by Simple Minded »

Parodite wrote:In general, I'd say, that all these problems are the result of politicians both in Western and Eastern Europe not anticipating in time the mass migrations to come. We are all too late. The usual finger pointing.. well that's Europe in a nut shell... too.
The lesson for all here is never tell anyone else that your neighborhood is better than theirs.
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Alexis
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Re: Mass Migrations

Post by Alexis »

Typhoon wrote:Meanwhile, Japan is putting it's ninja skills to use to stay invisible with regards to this issue.

Japanball is invisible ball.
Japan, in addition to accepting a total of 11 (eleven) refugees during the whole of 2014 year - not totally invisible, but pretty close :) - is actually helping with significant financing help to Syrian refugees in Turkey, to the tune of more than a billion $.

I was told that educational material provided for children refugees include specific versions of world maps without any archipelago East to Korea nor China.
On the other hand, the continent near the Southern pole is marked as "Japan". :P

Ninja skills, indeed ;)

Parodite wrote:In general, I'd say, that all these problems are the result of politicians both in Western and Eastern Europe not anticipating in time the mass migrations to come. We are all too late.
Too late for preventing in advance these migrations the nicer way, yes - helping refugees in Turkey or Lebanon, say. Not too late for stopping them in a more traditional way.

He who is not endowed with ninja skills will by force develop other skills.
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Alexis
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Re: Mass Migrations

Post by Alexis »

Numbers.

Part of US population which was foreign-born peaked around 13% to 14% in the years 1880 to 1900.

Western European countries are already there, or very close: France or the UK 11%, Germany 12%, Spain or Sweden 14%, Austria 15%...

Many Western Europeans would agree that they don't need many more immigrants than they have now. A pause would be beneficial, all the more since unemployment is rife in many of these countries.

Many Eastern Europeans are not exactly thrilled at accepting many Muslim migrants. The fact is that Jihadis and other nutcases have done much to destroy the reputation of Muslims as a whole. I can testify that this is unfair, thinking to such or such real Muslim persons I happen to know, but this bad reputation is real all the same, and Eastern Europeans are not the ones who created it - the nutcases did.
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