Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:24 am

This new chapter of gun debate since the Sandy Hook spectacle shooting has been astonishing. Democrats proclaimed in 2012 that the shooting would win them the 2014 midterms, then they went on to lose that midterm in near record fashion. Gun freedoms have become more popular as more shootings were sensationalized. And yet with each shooting gunphobics trot out the same arguments they lost with at the last shooting, becoming living breathing examples of insanity.

In the US, the gun debate has been settled.

- We already have European style gun control in many states and the result is murder rates several times higher than Europe
- The lowest murder rate states are on par with Europe and have no gun laws at all, at the state level
- Gun violence has been declining for 30 years while gun freedoms have been increasing and gun ownership has risen
- Assault weapons are used in approx 1-3% of murder
- You are more likely to be killed by lightning than die in a school shooting
- No country in the world has national mental health screening and no country ever will
- People with mental health issues are responsible for a very low percentage of murder, in single digits
- Gun show weapons (which are not subject to background check) are used in approx 2% of murders
- A concealed carry holder is many times less likely to commit murder than non CC people
- 75% of guns used in crime are obtained illegally mostly through straw purchase

So we have reiterated these factual arguments many times in this new chapter of media hysteria, but there is no evidence that gunphobes have even cognated these facts, let alone attempted to rebut them. The result has been an increase in support for gun rights among everyday Americans who do have knowledge of these facts to one degree or another.

So the only point where I grant that gunphobes could be legitimately confused is comparing European laws and murder with America. Now, there is an enormous selection bias here that we'll only touch on for now, but we'll address the overall argument.

- The selection bias error is as follows. A small number of "developed nations" with gun control are biased in, deleting out the fact that "undeveloped nations" with gun control laws usually have murder rates way higher than America. So the issue is what does being a "developed nation" have to do with anything. The only thing I can find is race. And why race would be a consideration escapes me.

But let talk about the larger error.

One of the gunphobic arguments appears to be that guns cause crime, or guns encourage crime, or "availability" of guns makes crime "easier", or something of this nature. Despite the fact that in America we have 50 states to compare and this idea is not supported in any way as many states with the most guns and fewest laws have low European murder rates while low gun ownership states with gun control have the highest murder rates, gunphobes contend that since Europe has gun laws and low murder it must be because of the gun laws.

There are a number of problems with this

- Inherent in the gunphobic argument is that there are huge pools of Europeans who are itching to commit murder but are frustrated, because of the gun control laws. I think people should think about that. Large numbers of Europeans who are craving murder but give up because of gun laws. Is this rational? Would someone bent on murder give up because there are gun laws? Why would you be impeded by a gun law

- What I have noted for more than a decade is that what we would call a "cultural" aversion to firearms in European countries. Many Europeans find guns to be "vulgar". This is a partial to full phobia. I've seen many liberals actually quiver at the thought of being in the presence of a gun. It doesn't make sense to have people who have an actual mental problem on an issue deciding the issue. Europeans don't like guns. As a result, it would make sense that many Europeans don't pursue gun ownership.

- Guns are actually legal in Europe and there are a lot of them, and as we see in France there is a black market for what liberals call military grade rifles that can easily be obtained. Just as people who want drugs can get drugs where drugs are illegal so also can guns be obtained in Europe if any murderer wants one.

So our conclusion must be that gun control doesn't actually work in Europe. Lower murder rates would be attributed to other factors.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby manolo » Sat Dec 05, 2015 9:44 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:Guns are actually legal in Europe and there are a lot of them...


Mr P,

Quite so. My rifle club accepts most calibres, including what we call 'full bore'. The local gun shop is well stocked and includes some tactical style stuff, which was a surprise to my wife. Mostly we are interested in guns which have a practical use in target shooting, game, pest control. I like air rifles, and there are some UK made .303 air rifles that can easily take down a deer at 60 yds and smaller game at 100yds and beyond.

There is a police background check for some club memberships and a character reference is required, but that seems fair enough to me. I suspect that any form of gun crime is extremely rare among licensed gun owners, and this is likely to be similar in the US. One concern that police officers have is the use of a firearm for suicide, as this is not unknown among the rural/farming community. I do know of a long term licensed gun owner who was diagnosed with severe depression and phoned his firearms officer to hand in his ticket.

Alex.
Last edited by manolo on Sat Dec 05, 2015 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Sat Dec 05, 2015 10:04 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:- What I have noted for more than a decade is that what we would call a "cultural" aversion to firearms in European countries. Many Europeans find guns to be "vulgar". This is a partial to full phobia. I've seen many liberals actually quiver at the thought of being in the presence of a gun. It doesn't make sense to have people who have an actual mental problem on an issue deciding the issue. Europeans don't like guns. As a result, it would make sense that many Europeans don't pursue gun ownership.


I have been presented the argument that the aversion is due to bearing arms being an old privilege of the aristocratic class.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Simple Minded » Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:12 pm

Well said Mr. Perfect. Very rational. I like the video "Number One with a Bullet" because it highlights "local" cultures.

Blaming the inanimate object is very chic in an era of avoiding discussion of the concept of personal responsibility.

Gun problem in America? Really? Which 10 square miles are you focused upon?

Those who wish to control others can never get past their desire for power and actually think.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Simple Minded » Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:23 pm

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:- What I have noted for more than a decade is that what we would call a "cultural" aversion to firearms in European countries. Many Europeans find guns to be "vulgar". This is a partial to full phobia. I've seen many liberals actually quiver at the thought of being in the presence of a gun. It doesn't make sense to have people who have an actual mental problem on an issue deciding the issue. Europeans don't like guns. As a result, it would make sense that many Europeans don't pursue gun ownership.


I have been presented the argument that the aversion is due to bearing arms being an old privilege of the aristocratic class.


I think Mr. P has a valid point. Of the 5 people I have known for more than 15 years who hail from England or Ireland, all consider gun owners to be low class or mentally diseased. They seem to think the same about conservative, right-wing, or Republican even though they only access sources that are ideologically opposed. I suspect this is baggage they brought with them from the old country.

Could non-gun ownership be a form of wine snobbery? Or I have never watched a single lap of a NASCAR race snobbery? Or I am better than the average American Joe snobbery? All real tractors are red snobbery?

Why not? but I would not use a broad brush approach. Most of the Europeans I have known, once they get here, can't wait to get their hands on some high powered guns and shoot.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby noddy » Sun Dec 06, 2015 1:25 am

their certainly is a percentage of non american people that have an extremely strong negative reaction to guns and extreme prejudices against them, however this isnt the main difference between the countries because those people can be found in america too.

the true difference is the lack of people who define themselves and their freedom with them - the america gun worship thing is its own thing, it has no equal elsewhere, ive never met anyone but an american who is so certain that guns mean freedom and their is no freedom without guns.

like many aussies im indifferent to them, i wouldnt waste political energy for or against, except maybe to piss off the wet lefties who froth at the mouth and really hate them.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sun Dec 06, 2015 1:35 am

That's a slightly different subject. Short on time, but suffice to say that Europeans have a different set of ideological lenses they use on this subject.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sun Dec 06, 2015 2:08 am

Simple Minded wrote:Could non-gun ownership be a form of wine snobbery? Or I have never watched a single lap of a NASCAR race snobbery? Or I am better than the average American Joe snobbery? All real tractors are red snobbery?

noddy, along these lines. The freedom argument is different.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Simple Minded » Sun Dec 06, 2015 5:28 am

noddy wrote:
.....the true difference is the lack of people who define themselves and their freedom with them - the america gun worship thing is its own thing, it has no equal elsewhere, ive never met anyone but an american who is so certain that guns mean freedom and their is no freedom without guns.


somewhat true. IIRC, at some point some of us were taught (correctly or not) that taking away guns is kind of a canary in the coal mine test for tyrannical govt.

I think for many, it is simply a matter of trust.

The Second Amendment is pretty clear, and when those who take an oath to uphold the Constitution,
decide to ignore the Constitution,
and then tell you they will not enforce the laws that exist,
and that therefore new laws are needed,
and that it is too difficult to discern criminals from law abiding citizens,
so it is best just to remove rights that they don't think should have existed in the first place,
cause upholding those rights makes their job too hard to do........ it does not inspire a lot of trust.

Especially when they tell you that the only thing preventing the creation of utopia is the stupid people who don't agree with them, cause they are so dumb as to think they actually have rights.

Couple that with much of the US views DC as much of Europe views Brussels, ie: we would be better off if they ignored us and let us handle the problems locally.

all that said, if one is born and raised in one of the less civilized parts of the US, it is easy to see how one could arrive at the opinion "the locals are nuts, someone should disarm them." And the pols would think "the locals are nuts, it is my duty to disarm them."

But hey, gun control is fighting the last war. Computers, social media, smart phones, internet, and climate change are where the efforts should now be focused and the innocent lumped in with the guilty, and all punished for "the common good" and the creation of safe spaces...... ;)

lack of ability to communicate = impenetrable safe space
impenetrable safe space = ignorance,
ignorance = bliss,
bliss = peace!

kinda like parents separating fighting children to their rooms.........
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby noddy » Sun Dec 06, 2015 12:03 pm

Mr. Perfect wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:Could non-gun ownership be a form of wine snobbery? Or I have never watched a single lap of a NASCAR race snobbery? Or I am better than the average American Joe snobbery? All real tractors are red snobbery?

noddy, along these lines. The freedom argument is different.


in my dribble above, i call those people the anti gun people, and sure, a bunch of middle class chardonnay socialists with massive ego's do think along these lines.

what europe and australia dont have is the opposing group of pro gun folks, the rest of us just arent invested in the argument and didnt have guns before they cracked down on them.

no biggie, if and when i ever did wanted a gun i have very little doubt i could get one, its not like the government banning things actually means anything, evidence A, the drug war.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Simple Minded » Sun Dec 06, 2015 2:46 pm

noddy wrote:
in my dribble above, i call those people the anti gun people, and sure, a bunch of middle class chardonnay socialists with massive ego's do think along these lines.

what europe and australia dont have is the opposing group of pro gun folks, the rest of us just arent invested in the argument and didnt have guns before they cracked down on them.

no biggie, if and when i ever did wanted a gun i have very little doubt i could get one, its not like the government banning things actually means anything, evidence A, the drug war.


True nuff. I think Nonc made some excellent arguments against making drugs illegal, all of which also apply to guns.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby YMix » Sun Dec 06, 2015 5:19 pm

noddy wrote:the true difference is the lack of people who define themselves and their freedom with them - the america gun worship thing is its own thing, it has no equal elsewhere, ive never met anyone but an american who is so certain that guns mean freedom and there is no freedom without guns.


Pretty much.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Mon Dec 07, 2015 4:02 am

Just for the record, exhibit A, I put forth substance and curiously it's ignored. Something to think about.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Mon Dec 07, 2015 4:05 am

noddy wrote:in my dribble above, i call those people the anti gun people, and sure, a bunch of middle class chardonnay socialists with massive ego's do think along these lines.

what europe and australia dont have is the opposing group of pro gun folks, the rest of us just arent invested in the argument and didnt have guns before they cracked down on them.

no biggie, if and when i ever did wanted a gun i have very little doubt i could get one, its not like the government banning things actually means anything, evidence A, the drug war.

There is a gun/freedom ideology argument to make. We are well aware you guys gave up on that long ago.

There is however another aspect, the vulgarity aspect. Wearing a white dress for your second wedding. Wearing white after labor day. Using the wrong fork, etc. In America we have little of that, while Europeans drip with it. It's a big factor of these debates and ultimately helps nullify the gun control argument.

Sockdolager.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby noddy » Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:08 am

you are quite right their is ZERO linkage between guns and the murder rate, the arguments are emotional horseshit.

you are quite wrong their is ANY linkage between guns and freedom, the arguments are emotional horseshit.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby YMix » Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:19 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:Just for the record, exhibit A, I put forth substance and curiously it's ignored. Something to think about.


In theory, this is something to think about. In practice, I'm sure you've already come to the wrong conclusion.

There is however another aspect, the vulgarity aspect. Wearing a white dress for your second wedding. Wearing white after labor day. Using the wrong fork, etc. In America we have little of that, while Europeans drip with it. It's a big factor of these debates and ultimately helps nullify the gun control argument.


So it's not just book learning that makes you uncomfortable. :)

noddy wrote:you are quite right their is ZERO linkage between guns and the murder rate, the arguments are emotional horseshit.


Caravaggio?
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:25 am

YMix wrote:In theory, this is something to think about. In practice, I'm sure you've already come to the wrong conclusion.

Then the idea would be you and others would put forth your conclusions and then we would debate it, hopefully not using sky is purple terms and tactics.

So it's not just book learning that makes you uncomfortable. :)

Europeans never make me uncomfortable. They make me wonder if I should remove scissors, staplers, or other low level injury threats from the immediate vicinity.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby YMix » Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:42 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:Europeans never make me uncomfortable.


I meant good manners. :)
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:56 am

Ehh, in some countries manners dictate you wipe your @$$ with your left hand. Some people use paper products. Still others pressure wash themselves.

Some manners are better than others.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:15 am

noddy wrote:you are quite right their is ZERO linkage between guns and the murder rate, the arguments are emotional horseshit.

you are quite wrong their is ANY linkage between guns and freedom, the arguments are emotional horseshit.


This is what I tried to get at, albeit poorly in hindsight- it is emotionally charged because it is a big part of our history.

Gun confiscation by General Gage and the Powder Alarm debacle set the whole thing in motion. Suddenly, what was a movement of radicals and businessmen pissed everyone off.

What weapons on a private citizen level do is to protect, or dissolve, sovereignty.

We have several examples in the last century of citizens overturning their governments (for better or worse) because they were armed to the teeth- Ireland, Russia, Germany, South Africa, Mexico....

For all the gov't firepower, do any of these gov'ts' have the stomach to turn the cannons on their own people? So maybe having guns around provides even more say in sovereign matters.

It's my understanding that Europe isn't quite devoid of guns though and legal gun ownership, and I'm sure they'd stock up very fast if need be.

But it does become a taste thing...

...and Australia is this magical island-continent where no one cares about guns, they can stop immigration as they please, and they poop natural resources to make a living.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:47 am

Yeah. So the conclusion to debate is what really drives lower murder rates in Europe, if it isn't gun control.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:35 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:Yeah. So the conclusion to debate is what really drives lower murder rates in Europe, if it isn't gun control.


First, are the statistics comparable? There are different standards going on.

Second, what are the reasons for murder- I bet the numbers would match up pretty well when it came to murder in the course of negligence/crime/revenge

but

the US would have an unusually high number of murders spurred on by one party purportedly disrespecting another party. I'd separate it from revenge because revenge usually comes with some objective slight- X took my spouse or job or whatever.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Simple Minded » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:39 pm

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
noddy wrote:you are quite right their is ZERO linkage between guns and the murder rate, the arguments are emotional horseshit.

you are quite wrong their is ANY linkage between guns and freedom, the arguments are emotional horseshit.


This is what I tried to get at, albeit poorly in hindsight- it is emotionally charged because it is a big part of our history.

Gun confiscation by General Gage and the Powder Alarm debacle set the whole thing in motion. Suddenly, what was a movement of radicals and businessmen pissed everyone off.

What weapons on a private citizen level do is to protect, or dissolve, sovereignty.

We have several examples in the last century of citizens overturning their governments (for better or worse) because they were armed to the teeth- Ireland, Russia, Germany, South Africa, Mexico....

For all the gov't firepower, do any of these gov'ts' have the stomach to turn the cannons on their own people? So maybe having guns around provides even more say in sovereign matters.

It's my understanding that Europe isn't quite devoid of guns though and legal gun ownership, and I'm sure they'd stock up very fast if need be.

But it does become a taste thing...

...and Australia is this magical island-continent where no one cares about guns, they can stop immigration as they please, and they poop natural resources to make a living.


good points Nap & noddy,

The taste thing can not be overstated, at least as far as the bed wetting anti-gun types I socialize with. they would not be caught dead parking a pickup truck in the driveway of their house that costs 8 times more than my house, but love the fact that I own a truck that I let them borrow when needed. If they encountered a rabid raccoon in their driveway, they would not hesitate to call a neighbor over to shoot it.

Not only do non-gun owners look down on gun owners, but Glock owners look down on Beretta owners. John Deere owners look down on Farmall owners, etc.

I grew up in a gun culture. Dad owned at least a dozen at any given time and was an avid hunter and trapshooter. They were all long guns and never locked up. Why lock them up when the kids were taught to handle guns with respect? The doors on the house were never locked either. He looked down on handguns and thought they had no reason to exist.

What a racist he was...... :P

The idea that some people think that other people should not own guns seems every bit as stupid as thinking other people should not own hammers or rakes or computers.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby noddy » Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:08 pm

ok, so if i understand all this correctly.

people who dont like guns are prissy uptight european royalist sympathisers and the best way to avoid being mistake for one is to strap as many high calibre weapons to your personage as you possibly can to spite them.

makes perfect sense really.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Simple Minded » Mon Dec 07, 2015 3:12 pm

noddy wrote:ok, so if i understand all this correctly.

people who dont like guns are prissy uptight european royalist sympathisers and the best way to avoid being mistake for one is to strap as many high calibre weapons to your personage as you possibly can to spite them.

makes perfect sense really.


:lol: You're getting warmer.

The other tactic is to ignore those who don't like guns, not petition the government to force they to give up their yuppie toys, and respectfully request that they do the same for you....

problem solved. rite?

the fascinating part of this discussion, to me (at least in America, if not on OTNOT) is the idea, that if group X came out and said blacks, gays, women, NYers, etc. should be considered as guilty due to their group identity, and therefore not allowed to exercise their rights as citizens to own guns, they would be properly viewed as bigots.

Imagine Apple users demanding that Window users should not be allowed to buy Windows products, because some Windows users are evil, and they might be hackers/identity thieves, or vice versa.

Even stranger, I've never heard a gun owner demands that those not interested in guns be forced by rule of law to buy guns.

The discussion seems one sided, some non-gun owners view gun owners as sub-humans, with a high probability of immoral behavior, and therefore their activities should be restricted.

Kinda like the ole days when the same group of deep thinkers didn't want blacks post Civil War to own guns...... in the name of claiming the moral high ground. Hmmm.....
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