Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby YMix » Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:15 pm

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:the US would have an unusually high number of murders spurred on by one party purportedly disrespecting another party.


Like I said above: Caravaggio. An unstable young man who liked to walk around armed an pick fights. It's all for sh*t and giggles until someone dies. I think Europe can say: been there, done that.

noddy wrote:ok, so if i understand all this correctly.

people who dont like guns are prissy uptight european royalist sympathisers and the best way to avoid being mistake for one is to strap as many high calibre weapons to your personage as you possibly can to spite them.

makes perfect sense really.


Close. A better way of putting it is: people who like the things that Mr. Perfect doesn't like or are indifferent/opposed to the things that Mr. Perfect likes are prissy Socialist uptight European royalist leftist low-info Communist low-testosterone Marxist sympathizers and the best way to avoid being mistaken for one is to convert to Mr. Perfect's ideas ASAP and then be as in-your-face about them as possible.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Simple Minded » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:15 pm

YMix wrote:
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:the US would have an unusually high number of murders spurred on by one party purportedly disrespecting another party.


Like I said above: Caravaggio. An unstable young man who liked to walk around armed an pick fights. It's all for sh*t and giggles until someone dies. I think Europe can say: been there, done that.

noddy wrote:ok, so if i understand all this correctly.

people who dont like guns are prissy uptight european royalist sympathisers and the best way to avoid being mistake for one is to strap as many high calibre weapons to your personage as you possibly can to spite them.

makes perfect sense really.


Close. A better way of putting it is: people who like the things that Mr. Perfect doesn't like or are indifferent/opposed to the things that Mr. Perfect likes are prissy Socialist uptight European royalist leftist low-info Communist low-testosterone Marxist sympathizers and the best way to avoid being mistaken for one is to convert to Mr. Perfect's ideas ASAP and then be as in-your-face about them as possible.


Now you people are finally starting to get it. Mr. Perfect has a right to keep and bear arms, guaranteed in writing by the US government, as well as the right to voice his opinion, also guaranteed in writing by the US government!

You wankers are protected by oceans from these human powder kegs. Since I am living in the same country as he, I want to have equal rights to the same weaponry. Why would anyone want to disarm us potential victims in the presence of so many predators?

Where's yer humanity? Don't all y'all care about the old, the weak, and the minorities? :P
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:12 pm

noddy wrote:ok, so if i understand all this correctly.

Looks like no.

people who dont like guns are prissy uptight european royalist sympathisers and the best way to avoid being mistake for one is to strap as many high calibre weapons to your personage as you possibly can to spite them.

makes perfect sense really.

The issue is that a continent that detests guns culturally probably just wouldn't use guns, for good or ill purposes, as much as a culture that likes guns.

The gun control argument rests on the idea that there are huge number of Europeans that would love to commit murder but just give up because of gun laws.

This is not credible on the face and so in a time where we are discussing guns, gun laws, murder and the differences in developed nations it is that natural next step of analysis.

I'm contending that lower rates of murder in Europe have explanations other than gun laws. It's a substantive observation on my part, and I'm noting that people that complain about my doing substance are oddly miles away from the substance of this issue.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Parodite » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:31 pm

Mr. Perfect wrote:- What I have noted for more than a decade is that what we would call a "cultural" aversion to firearms in European countries. Many Europeans find guns to be "vulgar". This is a partial to full phobia. I've seen many liberals actually quiver at the thought of being in the presence of a gun. It doesn't make sense to have people who have an actual mental problem on an issue deciding the issue. Europeans don't like guns. As a result, it would make sense that many Europeans don't pursue gun ownership.


Strange reasoning. When Europeans on average don't like guns to be in the public domain except when carried by police it doesn't mean they have "an actual mental problem" with guns, why you maketh that assertion? If it is a tradition to think of gun ownership that way and the murder rates are considered low enough, who cares?

- Guns are actually legal in Europe and there are a lot of them, and as we see in France there is a black market for what liberals call military grade rifles that can easily be obtained. Just as people who want drugs can get drugs where drugs are illegal so also can guns be obtained in Europe if any murderer wants one.


Guns are legal in the context of shooting clubs and hunting animals, but not to be carried in the public domain by any Joe when he goes out shopping. Of course illegal weapons are traded everywhere among criminals around the world with the aim of committing crimes with it. So that is a zero-sum argument.

So our conclusion must be that gun control doesn't actually work in Europe. Lower murder rates would be attributed to other factors.


Wrong conclusion entirely. Gun control in Europe works in Europe, most likely not in the US and vice versa.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:56 pm

Parodite wrote:Strange reasoning. When Europeans on average don't like guns to be in the public domain except when carried by police it doesn't mean they have "an actual mental problem" with guns, why you maketh that assertion?

It's just keeping current with the times. Eg, if you "don't like" homosexuality, or sex change surgery then you are "homophobic" or "transphobic". In this way we are dealing with the phenomenon of gunphobia.

If it is a tradition to think of gun ownership that way and the murder rates are considered low enough, who cares?

Guns are legal in the context of shooting clubs and hunting animals, but not to be carried in the public domain by any Joe when he goes out shopping. Of course illegal weapons are traded everywhere among criminals around the world with the aim of committing crimes with it. So that is a zero-sum argument.

Wrong conclusion entirely. Gun control in Europe works in Europe, most likely not in the US and vice versa.

Well, that is problematic. US liberals won't stop talking about the wonders of European gun control, or gun control in "developed nations", and so the purpose of this thread is to examine these comparisons.

It's hard to accept the premise of European gun control accounting for lower murder rates when we look into the details.

Specifically, this thread is about examining cultural attitudes about guns rather than just the laws.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby noddy » Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:30 am

i seem to remember democrat cities full of drug gangs being high on the list of reasons of america having a high death rate last time we discussed this.

why do europe and australias druggies seem less prone to killing each other ?

having a population full of angry ex slaves might be a part of it.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:36 am

noddy wrote:i seem to remember democrat cities full of drug gangs being high on the list of reasons of america having a high death rate last time we discussed this.

Yup.

why do europe and australias druggies seem less prone to killing each other ?

Great questions. This is the kind of thing I was hoping there would be input.

My research indicates that culture also transmits to criminals. I'm open to suggestions.

having a population full of angry ex slaves might be a part of it.

Could be. But monitoring the issue I finder more present influences. Like say "gangster rap". Recently I asked everyone I knew how many murders could be linked to the Confederate flag. The answer was probably less than a dozen, and many years close to zero if not zero.

I then started asking how many murders could be linked to rap music, the answer that has started to form is "about half".
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Parodite » Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:45 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:
Wrong conclusion entirely. Gun control in Europe works in Europe, most likely not in the US and vice versa.


Well, that is problematic. US liberals won't stop talking about the wonders of European gun control, or gun control in "developed nations", and so the purpose of this thread is to examine these comparisons.


Based on some stats I saw once, the area where the US tops over the EU in gun related crime and murder is illegal drugs and its multi-billion dollar business in impoverished neighborhoods. US gvts created the drug cartels in Mexico et-al, being totally blind to the 101 mechanics underpinning it.

It's hard to accept the premise of European gun control accounting for lower murder rates when we look into the details.


If the gun related murder rate (minus those related to illegal drugs) is practically the same in the US as in Europe, it is equally meaningless to claim that no gun control works in the US.

It seems safer to say that different cultures with different attitudes and laws on gun ownership and use, can have the same gun related murder rate effectively. One would expect that if Europeans and Mericans would start to live by each others gun laws.. murder rates would increase on both sides.

Specifically, this thread is about examining cultural attitudes about guns rather than just the laws.


You made a lot of stupid remarks about Europeans and give this thread an equally meaningless title. ;) :oops:
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:56 am

Parodite wrote:Based on some stats I saw once, the area where the US tops over the EU in gun related crime and murder is illegal drugs and its multi-billion dollar business in impoverished neighborhoods. US gvts created the drug cartels in Mexico et-al, being totally blind to the 101 mechanics underpinning it.

Drugs are also illegal in Europe.

If the gun related murder rate (minus those related to illegal drugs) is practically the same in the US as in Europe, it is equally meaningless to claim that no gun control works in the US.

I guess if that was the claim then you could consider it.

However my claim is to the right to the means of my defense from any threat.

It seems safer to say that different cultures with different attitudes and laws on gun ownership and use, can have the same gun related murder rate effectively. One would expect that if Europeans and Mericans would start to live by each others gun laws.. murder rates would increase on both sides.

I doubt it. I think the compulsion to murder finds a way, just as the desire to get high. The compulsion to murder is of interest, as well as my ability to defend myself from it since the government cannot guarantee my safety.

You made a lot of stupid remarks about Europeans and give this thread an equally meaningless title. ;) :oops:

I don't see how. We saw gunphobia bubble to surface rather quickly.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Parodite » Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:40 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:
Parodite wrote:Based on some stats I saw once, the area where the US tops over the EU in gun related crime and murder is illegal drugs and its multi-billion dollar business in impoverished neighborhoods. US gvts created the drug cartels in Mexico et-al, being totally blind to the 101 mechanics underpinning it.

Drugs are also illegal in Europe.


But Europe has less impoverished neighborhoods where drug trade becomes the only means of making some money. Add the fact that guns exist in much greater number in the US and are much easier to obtain. But the bigger point is that making drugs illegal creates drug cartels, more crime and costs the tax payer plenty of law enforcement etc.

If the gun related murder rate (minus those related to illegal drugs) is practically the same in the US as in Europe, it is equally meaningless to claim that no gun control works in the US.

I guess if that was the claim then you could consider it.

However my claim is to the right to the means of my defense from any threat.


People differ on how they see their safety served best. So far I'm fine with how my safety is served in the Netherlands where guns are kept out of the street as much as possible minus police officers that are allowed to carry them. If every Joe here would be allowed to carry a gun anywhere it would make me feel less safe. I surely would want a gun myself then too; that's the nature of an arms race. I prefer not to be in an arms race though. Of course if police and gvt start to abuse their position and start to threaten me instead of those who threaten me... i.e. they start to behave like criminals themselves, it might be time for an armed resistance. And as you said: you can buy guns in the black market very easily. So for the moment, no worries.

It seems safer to say that different cultures with different attitudes and laws on gun ownership and use, can have the same gun related murder rate effectively. One would expect that if Europeans and Mericans would start to live by each others gun laws.. murder rates would increase on both sides.

I doubt it. I think the compulsion to murder finds a way, just as the desire to get high. The compulsion to murder is of interest, as well as my ability to defend myself from it since the government cannot guarantee my safety.


To demand a guarantee on safety is over the top. Nobody can guarantee your safety.

You made a lot of stupid remarks about Europeans and give this thread an equally meaningless title. ;) :oops:

I don't see how. We saw gunphobia bubble to surface rather quickly.


You said that Europeans are dying to get their hands on guns and start killing. That would not not suggest gunphobia but gunphilia. In either case, it is nonsense.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Nonc Hilaire » Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:44 am

How does Switzerland compare to the rest of Europe?
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Parodite » Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:59 am

Nonc Hilaire wrote:How does Switzerland compare to the rest of Europe?


I don't know. Google might help. I suspect though that in a rich country like Switzerland with very few to none impoverished urban ghettos and a tradition of responsible gun ownership they are doing fine as do all similar rich areas in Europe. The combination of poverty, illegal drugs and crime makes guns more lethal methinks.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby noddy » Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:27 am

Simple Minded wrote:
YMix wrote:
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:the US would have an unusually high number of murders spurred on by one party purportedly disrespecting another party.


Like I said above: Caravaggio. An unstable young man who liked to walk around armed an pick fights. It's all for sh*t and giggles until someone dies. I think Europe can say: been there, done that.

noddy wrote:ok, so if i understand all this correctly.

people who dont like guns are prissy uptight european royalist sympathisers and the best way to avoid being mistake for one is to strap as many high calibre weapons to your personage as you possibly can to spite them.

makes perfect sense really.


Close. A better way of putting it is: people who like the things that Mr. Perfect doesn't like or are indifferent/opposed to the things that Mr. Perfect likes are prissy Socialist uptight European royalist leftist low-info Communist low-testosterone Marxist sympathizers and the best way to avoid being mistaken for one is to convert to Mr. Perfect's ideas ASAP and then be as in-your-face about them as possible.


Now you people are finally starting to get it. Mr. Perfect has a right to keep and bear arms, guaranteed in writing by the US government, as well as the right to voice his opinion, also guaranteed in writing by the US government!

You wankers are protected by oceans from these human powder kegs. Since I am living in the same country as he, I want to have equal rights to the same weaponry. Why would anyone want to disarm us potential victims in the presence of so many predators?

Where's yer humanity? Don't all y'all care about the old, the weak, and the minorities? :P



this also makes perfect sense :)
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:42 am

Parodite wrote:But Europe has less impoverished neighborhoods where drug trade becomes the only means of making some money. Add the fact that guns exist in much greater number in the US and are much easier to obtain. But the bigger point is that making drugs illegal creates drug cartels, more crime and costs the tax payer plenty of law enforcement etc.

I guess. The Democrats need to keep these people down for some reason.

People differ on how they see their safety served best. So far I'm fine with how my safety is served in the Netherlands where guns are kept out of the street as much as possible minus police officers that are allowed to carry them. If every Joe here would be allowed to carry a gun anywhere it would make me feel less safe. I surely would want a gun myself then too; that's the nature of an arms race. I prefer not to be in an arms race though. Of course if police and gvt start to abuse their position and start to threaten me instead of those who threaten me... i.e. they start to behave like criminals themselves, it might be time for an armed resistance. And as you said: you can buy guns in the black market very easily. So for the moment, no worries.

With real world experience in the US we know a Concealed Carry patriot is many times less likely to murder anyone than a non concealed carry. If you were to come to the US statistically you would be more likely to murder than I.

We have a healthy carry rate, and it has no criminal tie. In America I don't pack to guard against other concealed carry, but against murderous criminals. So there isn't an arms race in that sense.

I've never been in a car accident. But I wear a seatbelt anyway.

To demand a guarantee on safety is over the top. Nobody can guarantee your safety.

Let's rephrase this. Nobody demanded a guarantee, but the government guarantees that it cannot guarantee my safety. This makes me the last line of my defense, and I am entitled to the means of my defense by right.

You said that Europeans are dying to get their hands on guns and start killing. That would not not suggest gunphobia but gunphilia. In either case, it is nonsense.

No I did not say that even slightly. To say this is disingenuous on your part.

I said the premise of gun control working in Europe is that there would have to be many Europeans itching to commit murder but quit because they can't get a hold of any guns, I said this was irrational on it's face and therefore lower murder rates in Europe would have to be attributed to other factors.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:43 am

Parodite wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote:How does Switzerland compare to the rest of Europe?


I don't know. Google might help. I suspect though that in a rich country like Switzerland with very few to none impoverished urban ghettos and a tradition of responsible gun ownership they are doing fine as do all similar rich areas in Europe. The combination of poverty, illegal drugs and crime makes guns more lethal methinks.

It's actually poverty, illegal drugs, and liberalism that is the lethal stew.

We have places that have all these without the liberalism and they don't have the murder rates.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Typhoon » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:03 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:
Parodite wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote:How does Switzerland compare to the rest of Europe?


I don't know. Google might help. I suspect though that in a rich country like Switzerland with very few to none impoverished urban ghettos and a tradition of responsible gun ownership they are doing fine as do all similar rich areas in Europe. The combination of poverty, illegal drugs and crime makes guns more lethal methinks.

It's actually poverty, illegal drugs, and liberalism that is the lethal stew.

We have places that have all these without the liberalism and they don't have the murder rates.


Yet, Europe according to, mostly insular, Americans is a liberal - socialist - pinko commie hell hole.

So by your thesis their murder rates should dwarf those of the USA, whereas, the reality is the reverse.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Typhoon » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:06 am

Nonc Hilaire wrote:How does Switzerland compare to the rest of Europe?


Mythbusting: Israel and Switzerland are not gun-toting utopias

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22089893
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby noddy » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:10 am

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
We have several examples in the last century of citizens overturning their governments (for better or worse) because they were armed to the teeth- Ireland, Russia, Germany, South Africa, Mexico....

For all the gov't firepower, do any of these gov'ts' have the stomach to turn the cannons on their own people? So maybe having guns around provides even more say in sovereign matters.


where does the merkin civil war fit into this calculation of armed misfits against the government ?
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:12 am

Typhoon wrote:Yet, Europe according to, mostly insular, Americans is a liberal - socialist - pinko commie hell hole.

So by your thesis their murder rates should dwarf those of the USA, whereas, the reality is the reverse.

No, as I have stated many times, European leftists have a different proscription for their low income populations than American liberals. US liberals depend on their ghettoes being the way they are in order to maintain power. If the Democrat underclass populations became educated, prosperous, home owning and nuclear family forming they would switch parties and Democrats would cease to exist.

It saves everyone time if you argue with what I actually say and not what your imagination says I say.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:12 am

noddy wrote:
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
We have several examples in the last century of citizens overturning their governments (for better or worse) because they were armed to the teeth- Ireland, Russia, Germany, South Africa, Mexico....

For all the gov't firepower, do any of these gov'ts' have the stomach to turn the cannons on their own people? So maybe having guns around provides even more say in sovereign matters.


where does the merkin civil war fit into this calculation of armed misfits against the government ?

As not the root cause. Also not too comparable because the South rose up as an opposing government as opposed to armed insurgency, and so forth.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:15 am

Typhoon wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote:How does Switzerland compare to the rest of Europe?


Mythbusting: Israel and Switzerland are not gun-toting utopias

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22089893

Do you even read these before posting them.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Typhoon » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:17 am

Simple Minded wrote:
YMix wrote:
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:the US would have an unusually high number of murders spurred on by one party purportedly disrespecting another party.


Like I said above: Caravaggio. An unstable young man who liked to walk around armed an pick fights. It's all for sh*t and giggles until someone dies. I think Europe can say: been there, done that.

noddy wrote:ok, so if i understand all this correctly.

people who dont like guns are prissy uptight european royalist sympathisers and the best way to avoid being mistake for one is to strap as many high calibre weapons to your personage as you possibly can to spite them.

makes perfect sense really.


Close. A better way of putting it is: people who like the things that Mr. Perfect doesn't like or are indifferent/opposed to the things that Mr. Perfect likes are prissy Socialist uptight European royalist leftist low-info Communist low-testosterone Marxist sympathizers and the best way to avoid being mistaken for one is to convert to Mr. Perfect's ideas ASAP and then be as in-your-face about them as possible.


Now you people are finally starting to get it. Mr. Perfect has a right to keep and bear arms, guaranteed in writing by the US government, as well as the right to voice his opinion, also guaranteed in writing by the US government!

You wankers are protected by oceans from these human powder kegs. Since I am living in the same country as he, I want to have equal rights to the same weaponry. Why would anyone want to disarm us potential victims in the presence of so many predators?

Where's yer humanity? Don't all y'all care about the old, the weak, and the minorities? :P


The irony is that while Americans claim that gun ownership is necessary to "protect freedom",
they have been falling over each other in their rush to trade their rights and freedoms for a little perceived security.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:17 am

Typhoon wrote:The irony is that while Americans claim that gun ownership is necessary to "protect freedom",
they have been falling over each other in their rush to trade their rights and freedoms for a little perceived security.

Like gun controllers.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby YMix » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:00 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:We saw gunphobia bubble to surface rather quickly.


I don't think the situation in Europe can be described as gunphobia.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:08 am

I'm open to suggestion. I've seen gunphobia so many times with my own eyes in America. Literal, actual fear with the quivering of body and voice. What I see from Europe seems very similar, with some differences. So maybe gunphobia plus cultural distaste. I'm exploring the ideas.
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