Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby YMix » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:28 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:I've seen gunphobia so many times with my own eyes in America. Literal, actual fear with the quivering of body and voice.


I doubt it.

What I see from Europe seems very similar, with some differences. So maybe gunphobia plus cultural distaste. I'm exploring the ideas.


Gun ownership rates across Europe are not as high as in the USA, but they're not exactly low either. Simple Minded has said more than once that Areva employees coming over to the USA have no problem shooting guns. I know there are paintball and gun ranges in Bucharest. If you have any evidence of gunphobia, by all means let's see it.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:41 am

I think that asking for "evidence" of phobias is against the law in many US States. I remember long ago asking for evidence of "homophobia" and I was almost indicted with a crime. I'm not going there.

SM also detected the same fears and prejudices in Europeans as liberal Americans. I have never experienced a European dying to shoot guns like that, but I'm open to it.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby YMix » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:43 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:I think that asking for "evidence" of phobias is against the law in many US States. I remember long ago asking for evidence of "homophobia" and I was almost indicted with a crime. I'm not going there.


So none. Good to know.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:49 am

Maybe it is easier to say the British are "gun-phobic" and because of language/partnership barriers, their attitude gets stereotyped on the rest of Europe.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby YMix » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:50 am

It's even easier to say that guns (and religion) are not a topic of interest in Europe.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:56 am

YMix wrote:
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:the US would have an unusually high number of murders spurred on by one party purportedly disrespecting another party.


Like I said above: Caravaggio. An unstable young man who liked to walk around armed an pick fights. It's all for sh*t and giggles until someone dies. I think Europe can say: been there, done that.


I didn't see that above but, sorta.

I think it's too quick to jump on unstable though
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:57 am

YMix wrote:It's even easier to say that guns (and religion) are not a topic of interest in Europe.


I don't know why you're bringing religion into this.

Are you telling us to Praise Jesus and Pass the Ammunition? :)
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby YMix » Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:05 am

Praise the good life and have some more French wine. :)
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:11 am

YMix wrote:It's even easier to say that guns (and religion) are not a topic of interest in Europe.

Or reproduction. ;)
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby YMix » Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:15 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:Or reproduction. ;)


Or hope among the dead white guys.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby noddy » Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:25 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:
noddy wrote:
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
We have several examples in the last century of citizens overturning their governments (for better or worse) because they were armed to the teeth- Ireland, Russia, Germany, South Africa, Mexico....

For all the gov't firepower, do any of these gov'ts' have the stomach to turn the cannons on their own people? So maybe having guns around provides even more say in sovereign matters.


where does the merkin civil war fit into this calculation of armed misfits against the government ?

As not the root cause. Also not too comparable because the South rose up as an opposing government as opposed to armed insurgency, and so forth.


it is directed at the claim that armed civllians can take on the establishment armies, which if it was true and obvious, then europeans and australians might be more pro gun for liberty reasons.

all i can see is drones and government wrokers making me go splat with hellfire missles, like some taliban goat herder.

im not so certain id see all of naps examples as part of that process, and im definately not sure i see the civil war as being a good example of it either.

i dont on any level see any distinction between "rose up as an opposing government as opposed to armed insurgency" because they are the same thing by other names.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:27 am

YMix wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:Or reproduction. ;)


Or hope among the dead white guys.

Whatever that means.

So I think that the summary going forward is that the lower murder rate among European countries is not because of their gun laws. That there would be other cultural factors explaining the difference in rates of murder.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby noddy » Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:29 am

funnily enough the rates of australian gun ownership went up slightly after they made them harder to get and still the murder rate kept on dropping.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby YMix » Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:29 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:Whatever that means.


You know very well what it means.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:33 am

noddy wrote: it is directed at the claim that armed civllians can take on the establishment armies, which if it was true and obvious, then europeans and australians might be more pro gun for liberty reasons.

Well the US Civil War was an army against an army.

all i can see is drones and government wrokers making me go splat with hellfire missles, like some taliban goat herder.

im not so certain id see all of naps examples as part of that process, and im definately not sure i see the civil war as being a good example of it either.

i dont on any level see any distinction between "rose up as an opposing government as opposed to armed insurgency" because they are the same thing by other names.

I guess I don't know.

For this thread, I've been exploring the differences in cultural attitudes that may have an effect on the statistics. In the US we have almost identical gun laws in many large states as Europe has, and several times higher gun violence than Europe in those gun control zones. Conversely our states with no laws enjoy the very low violence rates we see in Europe. So there has to be an explanation.

As for rising up against a tyrannical gov't, it's just one justification for owning guns. People do it when they feel like, even in places like Syria and AFG. For me we are individuals first and citizens of a country second, per natural law. I'm under no obligation to serve a system, rather the system should serve me.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:34 am

YMix wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:Whatever that means.


You know very well what it means.

I have no idea what hope or dead white guys has to do with what interests Europeans.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:37 am

noddy wrote:funnily enough the rates of australian gun ownership went up slightly after they made them harder to get and still the murder rate kept on dropping.

Yeah, that's what I saw.

CS once produced a self refuting scatterplot that showed no correlation between gun violence and gun prevelance. Somehow he saw it as a support for his gun prohibition stance. It was weird.

It's embarrassing to watch Democrats going through this, they've lost this debate every time they've had it, but they are soo vulnerable on terrorism and foreign policy that they have no option but to put this on the TV. Last throes of leftism.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby YMix » Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:39 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:I have no idea what hope or dead white guys has to do with what interests Europeans.


But you know what it means in general.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby noddy » Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:41 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:For this thread, I've been exploring the differences in cultural attitudes that may have an effect on the statistics. In the US we have almost identical gun laws in many large states as Europe has, and several times higher gun violence than Europe in those gun control zones. Conversely our states with no laws enjoy the very low violence rates we see in Europe. So there has to be an explanation.


the frenchies do have drug addled ghettos full of people that dont care about the wider culture and they are doing their best to catchup in the statistics ;P

patience.


Mr. Perfect wrote:
As for rising up against a tyrannical gov't, it's just one justification for owning guns. People do it when they feel like, even in places like Syria and AFG. For me we are individuals first and citizens of a country second, per natural law. I'm under no obligation to serve a system, rather the system should serve me.


all fair enough, but that puts guns in the hobby category, which is perfectly fine, i dont need to explain or justify my hobbies.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby noddy » Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:42 am

Mr. Perfect wrote: It's embarrassing to watch Democrats going through this, they've lost this debate every time they've had it, but they are soo vulnerable on terrorism and foreign policy that they have no option but to put this on the TV. Last throes of leftism.


maybe.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3568
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:43 am

YMix wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:I have no idea what hope or dead white guys has to do with what interests Europeans.


But you know what it means in general.

What what means in general.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:46 am

noddy wrote:the frenchies do have drug addled ghettos full of people that dont care about the wider culture and they are doing their best to catchup in the statistics ;P

patience.

Could be. I don't know enough about it.


all fair enough, but that puts guns in the hobby category, which is perfectly fine, i dont need to explain or justify my hobbies.

The clear and present need for a gun is self defense from crime, which is not a hobby. Other needs are just tacked to it.

From a natural rights perspective the firearm stems from right to life and protection of self in the abstract. Whether that is from a tyrant or a criminal is just a detail from someone's place and time of birth.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby YMix » Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:54 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:What what means in general.


Playing dumb, apparently.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:03 am

It's going over my head too.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby YMix » Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:09 am

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:It's going over my head too.


The pot calling the kettle black?
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
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