Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:22 am

Yeah. My offer still stands, if you want me to make your arguments for you I will, but there has to be some cognable concept going on. I can't "make up" a topic for you.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:23 am

YMix wrote:
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:It's going over my head too.


The pot calling the kettle black?


ah, okay, thank you, gotcha :lol:
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:36 am

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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:37 am

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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:57 am

noddy wrote:
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
We have several examples in the last century of citizens overturning their governments (for better or worse) because they were armed to the teeth- Ireland, Russia, Germany, South Africa, Mexico....

For all the gov't firepower, do any of these gov'ts' have the stomach to turn the cannons on their own people? So maybe having guns around provides even more say in sovereign matters.


where does the merkin civil war fit into this calculation of armed misfits against the government ?


How doesn't it fit?

More pertinently, where is this gov't (outside China) that has the stomach to put down a rebellion?

Sure, we have increasingly deadly technology, but bureaucrats are increasingly hesitant to use it to put down civil disorder.

I'm not saying that is a good or bad thing, it's just where we are at. That's what comes after the Post-Modern Age.

Sure, drones will mitigate it a bit; but my bet is that the future is filled with Baltimore-situation; civil disorder breaks out around Camden Yards, and what could've been quickly dealt with is ignored until near the end of the conflagration.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby noddy » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:33 am

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
noddy wrote:
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
We have several examples in the last century of citizens overturning their governments (for better or worse) because they were armed to the teeth- Ireland, Russia, Germany, South Africa, Mexico....

For all the gov't firepower, do any of these gov'ts' have the stomach to turn the cannons on their own people? So maybe having guns around provides even more say in sovereign matters.


where does the merkin civil war fit into this calculation of armed misfits against the government ?


How doesn't it fit?

More pertinently, where is this gov't (outside China) that has the stomach to put down a rebellion?

Sure, we have increasingly deadly technology, but bureaucrats are increasingly hesitant to use it to put down civil disorder.

I'm not saying that is a good or bad thing, it's just where we are at. That's what comes after the Post-Modern Age.

Sure, drones will mitigate it a bit; but my bet is that the future is filled with Baltimore-situation; civil disorder breaks out around Camden Yards, and what could've been quickly dealt with is ignored until near the end of the conflagration.


im not seeing that at all, im seeing increasingly millitiarised swat teams itching for trouble.

i have absolutely no doubt at all that a bunch of grumpy white guys with 'archaic' views on the role of government would be treated like the muslim equivilants.

i have even less doubt that drones would run amok on any rural properties they gathered on
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:58 am

YMix wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:I don't think it's really in my interest to spell it out.


Then there's no reason to pay attention to this.

Hopefully you won't.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Nonc Hilaire » Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:58 pm

Typhoon wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote:How does Switzerland compare to the rest of Europe?


Mythbusting: Israel and Switzerland are not gun-toting utopias

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22089893

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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Typhoon » Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:49 pm

Mr. Perfect wrote:Image


An object lesson in how not to plot and present a graph.
All the world's a stage.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Typhoon » Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:14 pm

noddy wrote:
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
noddy wrote:
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
We have several examples in the last century of citizens overturning their governments (for better or worse) because they were armed to the teeth- Ireland, Russia, Germany, South Africa, Mexico....

For all the gov't firepower, do any of these gov'ts' have the stomach to turn the cannons on their own people? So maybe having guns around provides even more say in sovereign matters.


where does the merkin civil war fit into this calculation of armed misfits against the government ?


How doesn't it fit?

More pertinently, where is this gov't (outside China) that has the stomach to put down a rebellion?

Sure, we have increasingly deadly technology, but bureaucrats are increasingly hesitant to use it to put down civil disorder.

I'm not saying that is a good or bad thing, it's just where we are at. That's what comes after the Post-Modern Age.

Sure, drones will mitigate it a bit; but my bet is that the future is filled with Baltimore-situation; civil disorder breaks out around Camden Yards, and what could've been quickly dealt with is ignored until near the end of the conflagration.


im not seeing that at all, im seeing increasingly millitiarised swat teams itching for trouble.

i have absolutely no doubt at all that a bunch of grumpy white guys with 'archaic' views on the role of government would be treated like the muslim equivilants.

i have even less doubt that drones would run amok on any rural properties they gathered on


The reality is that self-styled pseudo militias of playing-at-soldiers would not last a firefight against a third world military or even a Mexican cartel.
They would not last a day against Daesh.
That is why they stick to huffing and puffing at home, pestering peaceful citizens,
full of bravado behind the skirts and trousers of the most powerful military on the planet.
_____

A key requirement for a successful revolution is that enough key military units switch allegiance and throw their lot in with the uprising.
_____

Odd to bring this up in a European thread, that being said,

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


Aside from the odd, possibly archaic, phrasing and structure,
I read this sentence as supporting the formation and support of the Navy/Army/Air Force/Coast Guard Reserve and the Army National Guard.
No more, no less.

Apparently, SCOTUS has interpreted more it more liberally. Good luck.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:47 pm

Typhoon wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:Image


An object lesson in how not to plot and present a graph.

The opinion of the American people corresponds tightly to that graph, despite Americans not even seeing it.

It's a great presentation. It settles the issue.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:56 pm

Typhoon wrote:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


Aside from the odd, possibly archaic, phrasing and structure,
I read this sentence as supporting the formation and support of the Navy/Army/Air Force/Coast Guard Reserve and the Army National Guard.
No more, no less.


Hilarious. A militia by definition is NOT the Navy,Army,Coast Guard etc. Every dictionary ancient and modern as well as statements from the Founders defines a militia as a citizen force independent of the government. It would take some "Special" thinking to imagine the government would need a specific provision to give itself power to raise a military AND give it guns, especially when those powers were already in the Constitution before anyone ever heard of this amendment and the Founders were as explicit as the sun at noon day on what this amendment was for. My right to keep and bear my own arms, without infringement, and participate in a militia if I so choose.

Thanks for the chuckle but I'll chalk it up to ESL issues.

Apparently, SCOTUS has interpreted more it more liberally. Good luck.

Not that much. We are one vote at SCOTUS from striking down all gun control legislation state and federal.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby YMix » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:59 pm

Mr. Perfect wrote:Every dictionary ancient and modern as well as statements from the Founders defines a militia as a citizen force independent of the government.


Well, let's see the quotes.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:00 pm

Oh man. I was hoping one of you would do that. Are you saying you don't know how to look them up yourself. I didn't know it would go this well. :)
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby YMix » Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:09 pm

Mr. Perfect wrote:Oh man. I was hoping one of you would do that. Are you saying you don't know how to look them up yourself. I didn't know it would go this well. :)


Do you have something or not?
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:17 pm

Yeah. I have it all. Are you unable to research it on your own.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:21 pm

Also CS I forgot to mention at the time of the Bill of Rights the Founders didn't even believe in "Standing Armies" and didn't change their mind until the war of 1812. Or after.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:33 am

noddy wrote:im not seeing that at all, im seeing increasingly millitiarised swat teams itching for trouble.

i have absolutely no doubt at all that a bunch of grumpy white guys with 'archaic' views on the role of government would be treated like the muslim equivilants.

i have even less doubt that drones would run amok on any rural properties they gathered on


To steal a page out of the Mr.P playbook, you are whistlin' past the graveyard here; fighting the last war.

Yeah, swat teams are increasingly militarized, but it is becoming apparent that we are getting elephant guns to take care of flies.
And ultimately, they are still police, which have been shown time and time again to be woefully bad at actually stopping anything.

London, Baltimore, Ferguson, Chicago, Paris (the coordinated car burnings in the mid-aughts), the various mass shootings...it's a very long list where police were dressed to the nines in cool gear, with all sorts of whiz bang-baubles and couldn't prevent anything. In some of these cases, if you watch as the event unfolds, the primary mission becomes figuring out who is in charge of what. The Police show up, and then the FBI and ATF and maybe some other alphabet soup organization, and they go over the procedure long after the damage is done, because following and executing the plan is more important than do anything about the situation.

Paris was just paralyzed by 8 dudes a little better trained/equipped/directed than the media focused shooters/rioters. That's the future right there.

I've no doubt drones will make it much easier to push a button to get rid of Jim Bob, and those sort of those flare ups will happen. But the amount of fall out will paralyze any rigorous program for your average bureaucracy. Do you want to be the guy telling others to push the button when you know you are going to have to confront environmental agencies, gov't spies/whistleblowers, ambitious tv personalities, and on and on and on?
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby noddy » Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:43 am

we appear to be on different trains of thought.

i care not for stopping the movement, i care if having a gun would help me against tyrannical government millitary and/or police, i dont believe it would.

no matter, mr p has clarified the primary reason is self defense against rabid democrats and the rest of the reasons are tacked on.

----

as for the fallout paralyzing things - right now, with the current rules thats true but the big pressure at the moment is changing those rules so thats not really garunteed into the future.

stopping the videos being recorded, increasing the secrecy laws that keep government business out of the news, smothering the media in half truths about how terrrorist the victim is etc.

just the other day a cop in my area shot a family dog for no reason infront of the kids, no repurcussions even after they discovered later he was on amphetamines.

they look after their own and the stifling effects of bureaucracy are only true in some cities, others are still aggressively 'can do'
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:57 am

noddy wrote:we appear to be on different trains of thought.

i care not for stopping the movement, i care if having a gun would help me against tyrannical government millitary and/or police, i dont believe it would.

Some people said we lost the Iraq war. Some dirty robe wearing shmucks with ancient AK47s and primitive explosive devices beat the US military.

Could Jim Bob ever overthrow a tyrannical government? Only one way to find out.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby noddy » Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:04 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:
noddy wrote:we appear to be on different trains of thought.

i care not for stopping the movement, i care if having a gun would help me against tyrannical government millitary and/or police, i dont believe it would.

Some people said we lost the Iraq war. Some dirty robe wearing shmucks with ancient AK47s and primitive explosive devices beat the US military.

Could Jim Bob ever overthrow a tyrannical government? Only one way to find out.


some people say you won the war and killed between half a million and a million suckers.

then you lost the peace due to incompetent policies.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:21 am

95% of the fatalities were Iraqi on Iraqi. Some people said we lost the war because we didn't cause the fatalities. Others say fighting Jim Bob is what makes Jim Bob win. Some say that Clinton created Jim Bob. Some say no matter what happens Bushbama have already guaranteed an infinite number of Jim Bobs forever.

In the face of this I'll be on the safe side and sit on my arsenal and let the crazies cancel out in the glowing that is on the way.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby YMix » Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:45 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:Yeah. I have it all. Are you unable to research it on your own.


I don't have to research it. It's up to you to back your statement with something.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby Mr. Perfect » Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:52 am

You're right. You don't have to research it. You can remain in the dark, and never know what the truth is. In the age of internet search engines you can choose to not seek the knowledge. However in the long run does lack of knowledge generally help in a debate or hurt.

For example if you were to google "Founding Fathers 2nd amendment" do you think that would help you prepare for a debate or hurt you.

Are you comfortable with digital book learning or uncomfortable.
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Re: Why gun control doesn't work in Europe

Postby YMix » Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:46 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:You're right. You don't have to research it. You can remain in the dark, and never know what the truth is. In the age of internet search engines you can choose to not seek the knowledge. However in the long run does lack of knowledge generally help in a debate or hurt.

For example if you were to google "Founding Fathers 2nd amendment" do you think that would help you prepare for a debate or hurt you.

Are you comfortable with digital book learning or uncomfortable.


I'll google it after you make your case.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
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