Spain/Catalonia

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Nonc Hilaire
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Spain/Catalonia

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

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Miss_Faucie_Fishtits
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Re: Spain/Catalonia

Post by Miss_Faucie_Fishtits »

Hey, I think we know this guy.....'>........
On Oct. 1 the citizens of Spain’s northeastern province of Catalonia will vote in a referendum for national independence, despite arm-twisting by the Spanish government and stern warnings by world leaders – including Donald Trump, who last week stood next to Spain’s Prime Minister at the White House and told the Catalans that they would be “foolish” to secede.
She irons her jeans, she's evil.........
noddy
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Re: Spain/Catalonia

Post by noddy »

spain once again proving its incredible incompetency.


they turned a 50/50 situation into a 90/10 with clumsy authoritarianism - this could have played out like england/scotland, i believe the numbers where similar until the idiots started throwing the police force around.
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Typhoon
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Re: Spain/Catalonia

Post by Typhoon »

noddy wrote:spain once again proving its incredible incompetency.

they turned a 50/50 situation into a 90/10 with clumsy authoritarianism - this could have played out like england/scotland, i believe the numbers where similar until the idiots started throwing the police force around.
Indeed.
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Simple Minded

Re: Spain/Catalonia

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote:spain once again proving its incredible incompetency.


they turned a 50/50 situation into a 90/10 with clumsy authoritarianism - this could have played out like england/scotland, i believe the numbers where similar until the idiots started throwing the police force around.
That's exactly what the Russians want you to believe is happening there.

IIRC, our old buddy Endovelico was heavily involved in attaining Catalonic independence. I hope he is doing well.

Hopefully, he master plan will work better in Catalonia than it did in Venezuela (originally spelled as Venuswallia, but spellcheck saved it).
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: Spain/Catalonia

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Simple Minded wrote:.

That's exactly what the Russians want you to believe is happening there.

IIRC, our old buddy Endovelico was heavily involved in attaining Catalonic independence. I hope he is doing well.

.

Whaaaat ! ! ! ! Big D*ck Putin again has his finger in this ? :lol: .. come on, SM

Look, now Europe already a single, "One Country" .. traveling by car in Europe, the only signe we crossing from Germany to France or France to Spain or Italy are the language on the street-signs.

There is much more "fundamental" difference, clash, bewilderedness, difference in mindset and worldview (in all respects) between Mid America and New York and California and Texas than between any country within Europe .. Europe much more "Homogeneous" than America.

Meaning, Europe already a single nation/country .. and .. in that sense, separation of Catalonia not what it sounds.


BTW : "Endovelico" was a big asset for this fora, bringing some diversity, seeing things from other perspectives .. yes, he was for Catalan independence and he got it.

.
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Alexis
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Catalonian charade

Post by Alexis »

noddy wrote:they turned a 50/50 situation into a 90/10 with clumsy authoritarianism - this could have played out like england/scotland, i believe the numbers where similar until the idiots started throwing the police force around.
This "referendum" was a charade:
- No electoral commission
- No census, anybody could vote in any voting booth
- Part of votes were not anonymous, ballots not in enveloppes
- No security of ballot boxes, some were opaque and had just been bought on Alibaba!
- Electoral rules were modified the very morning of the vote
- No control of voters, anti-independentist activists and journalists have pictures demonstrating they could vote several times
- Result cannot be independently confirmed - you have to take the word of independentist leaders. Or not
- The vote broke no less than 20 of the 34 articles of the law which had authorized it :lol:
- Which law had been broken by Catalan court of justice prior to the vote
- And was anyway unconstitutional, in direct break of Spain's fundamental law

Image

Independentist leaders have created a big boondoggle. Within the next days, according to their own rules, the parliament that they control will probably unilaterally declare independence.

We'll see what happens next. But my bet is firmly on the side of Catalan independentists suffering a total rout:
- Catalanian MPs might think twice before declaring independence: they have seen the Spanish government will apply the law, and they know what they are risking
- A local parliament declaring independence, even more after such a charade of a vote, would mean Spanish government could trigger Article 155 of the constitution, suspending local institutions in break of the law
- Obviously, people who would have took part in a sedition - Catalan MPs and local government - could be made to answer a court of law for their crimes

This situation will worsen before it gets better. But the bottom line is that Spaniards will apply their laws and defend their country and their constitution. They faced armed insurrection in Basque country during several decades, ETA's terrorism killed hundreds, until they saw the end of it.

Catalan independentists are motivated by contempt for their Spanish countrymen, but even more by concern for their monies. They are spoiled children rather than violent ideologues. They don't stand a chance against Spain.
noddy
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Re: Spain/Catalonia

Post by noddy »

a) i have no doubt a heavy handed spainish regime will create another basque type situation.
b) claiming "contempt" for the spanish is a childish statement in itself - smaller groups always want to split from larger groups for more political and economic autonomy, this is a given.

contempt also encapsulates an authoritarian response with media shutdowns and police beatings - the illegality of the vote and misrepresentation of its results are a given *because* of the actions of the government.

I think we are in a time of splitting and how the larger grouping deals with it will be crucial to how it plays out - if the larger grouping is truly a net benefit to all involved it will conduct itself accordingly.
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Alexis
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Applying decision of a court is "authoritarianism"???

Post by Alexis »

noddy wrote:a) i have no doubt a heavy handed spainish regime will create another basque type situation.
b) claiming "contempt" for the spanish is a childish statement in itself
I think you do not know very much Catalan independentism.

Regarding the Spanish government trying to get the law respected, and the resulting situation in Catalonya, well we'll see. :)
contempt also encapsulates an authoritarian response with media shutdowns and police beatings - the illegality of the vote and misrepresentation of its results are a given *because* of the actions of the government.
The vote is illegal because a court of law had declared it is. Actions of the government are posterior to that decision. They aim at applying it.

If you think applying the decisions of a court is "authoritarianism", then I have to disagree. Also, the dictionnary disagrees. :)
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Re: Applying decision of a court is "authoritarianism"???

Post by noddy »

Alexis wrote:
noddy wrote:a) i have no doubt a heavy handed spainish regime will create another basque type situation.
b) claiming "contempt" for the spanish is a childish statement in itself
I think you do not know very much Catalan independentism.

Regarding the Spanish government trying to get the law respected, and the resulting situation in Catalonya, well we'll see. :)
contempt also encapsulates an authoritarian response with media shutdowns and police beatings - the illegality of the vote and misrepresentation of its results are a given *because* of the actions of the government.
The vote is illegal because a court of law had declared it is. Actions of the government are posterior to that decision. They aim at applying it.

If you think applying the decisions of a court is "authoritarianism", then I have to disagree. Also, the dictionnary disagrees. :)

I know around 50% of the population wants it and it has popped up on and off for quite some time.

I also know that without a solid magority believing in the law then its just words and means nothing - authoritarianism in a practical sense is when a government enforces a law without the will of the people behind it - you can look that up in the dictionary aswell.

I also know that how the larger grouping reacts will change the opinion of the wishy washy middle, every report im reading says they have stuffed that up.

time will tell and im not invested in this either way, im just noting that the media across the spectrum is considering that the spanish government was the one that pushed this over the edge, not the catalonians.
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Alexis
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Independentists ARE numerous

Post by Alexis »

Countryside is the part of Catalonia where independentists are most numerous.

How numerous?

Well, consider e.g. Palol de Revardit, little village of 470 souls, where 1,002 people voted on October 1st.

"Yes" garnered 99%. :)
noddy
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Re: Spain/Catalonia

Post by noddy »

this is highly publicised.

the spanish government shutdown the internet to disable the voter verification, destroyed ballot boxes triggering a second round of voting and then used police force to beat people who showed up at the main locations.

you can paint it however you like but the difference between this and the british or canadian responses to similar situations is quite striking.
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Re: Spain/Catalonia

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote:
I think we are in a time of splitting and how the larger grouping deals with it will be crucial to how it plays out - if the larger grouping is truly a net benefit to all involved it will conduct itself accordingly.
I agree and think you are correctly reading current social mood. In the US, the popular appeal of Palin, Obama, Occupy Wall Street, Tea Party, Trump, and Sanders are all recent indicators. People all over want "different."

California exiters are another example. But the lines of demarcation are what interest me. Why make the determination by state lines? People group in so many different manners these days. Looking at county voting patterns reveal there is no such thing in the US as a red state or a blue state. If California leaves the US, and declares any moral platform for doing so, can they contain the counties within their border? What will be the hook (carrot & stick) to make them want to stay?

Group ID is the question. I recently saw an interview with Cheryl Atkinson, and another one with Faith Goldy. It has never been easier for a small group of people to appear to be a mass movement to the general population.
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Typhoon
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Re: Spain/Catalonia

Post by Typhoon »

noddy wrote:this is highly publicised.

the spanish government shutdown the internet to disable the voter verification, destroyed ballot boxes triggering a second round of voting and then used police force to beat people who showed up at the main locations.

you can paint it however you like but the difference between this and the british or canadian responses to similar situations is quite striking.
Quite.
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Re: Spain/Catalonia

Post by noddy »

my state voted to suceed in 1933, the federals just ignored it and nothing happened after that.

their is another push for it at the moment as we are far more integrated with asia than the rest of australia so would be less europe/america orientated without them - we would also be far better off economically.
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Alexis
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Re: Spain/Catalonia

Post by Alexis »

noddy wrote:my state voted to suceed in 1933, the federals just ignored it and nothing happened after that.

their is another push for it at the moment as we are far more integrated with asia than the rest of australia so would be less europe/america orientated without them - we would also be far better off economically.
Thanks, I didn't know it: Secessionism in Western Australia

Is secession of a province compatible with Australian Constitution, or would it have to be reformed first?
noddy
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Re: Spain/Catalonia

Post by noddy »

Alexis wrote:
noddy wrote:my state voted to suceed in 1933, the federals just ignored it and nothing happened after that.

their is another push for it at the moment as we are far more integrated with asia than the rest of australia so would be less europe/america orientated without them - we would also be far better off economically.
Thanks, I didn't know it: Secessionism in Western Australia

Is secession of a province compatible with Australian Constitution, or would it have to be reformed first?
as i expressed above, the strict letter of the law isnt always the entire story - their are several layers of dont ask, dont tell in australian politics which may or may not resolve neatly back to actual law - we are a day to day people and dont have a bill of rights, nor do we want one (outside certain left wing circles)

strictly, australia is part of the british commonwealth and the queen gets the final say in such things however on a more practical level this arrangement is an embarrassment to both sides and it would be political suicide for the monarchy to get involved - so the final stage of law is dubious.

also, strictly, the federal powers of the australian government were enacted as emergency war time powers during the second world war, however they never got revoked and have become "sticky" over time, its a complicated and evolving situation without hard lines between federal and states rights.

i have no doubt if the federal high court deliberated on it carefully for weeks they would decide they had the final authority ;) however this would only be relevant to some member of society, the practical realities of real world politics always dominate our outcomes.

the laws which triggered the current round of grumbling are recent , the goods and services tax and the mining taxes, both of which are one sided leeching taxes from the eastern coast, so are we greedy for not wishing to pay or are they greedy for taking money and not providing services in return, the golden rule of good government.

during the last succession it was decided that the rest of australia also needed to vote on it and then they never got round to organising that vote - forcing WA's hand on if it was prepared to resort to violence, which it was not.

that is likely to remain the rule (but not the law) into the future, so Its not going to happen - which is a shame as my state would be much more dynamic without the shackles of the big city burbs and their incessant need for free money.
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Re: Spain/Catalonia

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Simple Minded wrote: I agree and think you are correctly reading current social mood. In the US, the popular appeal of Palin, Obama, Occupy Wall Street, Tea Party, Trump, and Sanders are all recent indicators. People all over want "different."

California exiters are another example. But the lines of demarcation are what interest me. Why make the determination by state lines? People group in so many different manners these days. Looking at county voting patterns reveal there is no such thing in the US as a red state or a blue state. If California leaves the US, and declares any moral platform for doing so, can they contain the counties within their border? What will be the hook (carrot & stick) to make them want to stay?

Group ID is the question. I recently saw an interview with Cheryl Atkinson, and another one with Faith Goldy.
Berzerker used to say we lost the ability to draw a North/South line long ago, blue/red counties intermingle from coast to coast.

Fortunately since the GOP took everything over it's not an issue anymore. Any exiting only strengthens our hand.
It has never been easier for a small group of people to appear to be a mass movement to the general population.
Reminds me of the Democrat Party.
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Re: Spain/Catalonia

Post by YMix »

Tabarnia - the 'region' that wants to leave Catalonia

A satirical petition proposing that Tabarnia, a non-existent part of independence-minded Catalonia, should break away from the region and remain part of Spain went viral on Tuesday.

[...]

Its backers mirror the language of Catalan separatists to argue that Tabarnia -- a word formed from Barcelona and Tarragona, the names of Catalonia's two main cities on the Mediterranean coast -- "is a region that differs in many aspects from the rest of the region it belongs to."

[...]

They argue that Barcelona and Tarragona suffer a "fiscal deficit" with the rest of the region, echoing the argument of separatists who say Catalonia, one of Spain's richest regions, pays more in taxes to the central government than it gets back in investments.

[...]
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