France

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Parodite
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Re: France

Post by Parodite »

Alexis wrote:The concern is however different: the topic of the debate is where should laïcité fully apply, meaning requirement of non-interference of religious or political ideologies.
Bien mais... Dress codes are everywhere. If a democratic process decides that one cannot walk around naked on a public beach, nudists understand without whining complaining and take their stuff elsewhere to places where the same democracy has decided they can freely expose and enjoy their hobby; @home, 18+ clubhouses or on special beaches for that purpose. A burkini beach for the spiritually naughty (love affairs with imaginary friends,SM-like relationships) would make sense.
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Alexis
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Re: France

Post by Alexis »

Parodite wrote:Bien mais... Dress codes are everywhere. If a democratic process decides that one cannot walk around naked on a public beach, nudists understand without whining complaining and take their stuff elsewhere to places where the same democracy has decided they can freely expose and enjoy their hobby; @home, 18+ clubhouses or on special beaches for that purpose. A burkini beach for the spiritually naughty (love affairs with imaginary friends,SM-like relationships) would make sense.
That's a funny way to put it :lol:

Jokes aside, I still think it's a bad idea. The places where laïcité should fully apply have already been defined (schools, administrations), they don't need to be extended indefinitely.

Also, there is a non-neglectible number of more pressing questions & problems to solve. Some would go as far as to say: a quite large one. :)
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Parodite
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Re: France

Post by Parodite »

Alexis wrote:Jokes aside, I still think it's a bad idea. The places where laïcité should fully apply have already been defined (schools, administrations), they don't need to be extended indefinitely.

Also, there is a non-neglectible number of more pressing questions & problems to solve. Some would go as far as to say: a quite large one. :)
Indeed. And I would prefer the more general question here: what should a modern secular constitution say about ideologies/political movements that want to change that constitution into a non-modern non-secular constitution that is hostile to modern western liberal values.
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Zack Morris
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Re: France

Post by Zack Morris »

Parodite wrote:
Alexis wrote:Jokes aside, I still think it's a bad idea. The places where laïcité should fully apply have already been defined (schools, administrations), they don't need to be extended indefinitely.

Also, there is a non-neglectible number of more pressing questions & problems to solve. Some would go as far as to say: a quite large one. :)
Indeed. And I would prefer the more general question here: what should a modern secular constitution say about ideologies/political movements that want to change that constitution into a non-modern non-secular constitution that is hostile to modern western liberal values.
It's absurd to suggest that allowing women to wear the beachwear of their choice is an affront to a secular constitution. In this case, it is the so-called secularists who are behaving like ignorant and dangerous fundamentalists. Comparing the situation to nude vs. non-nude beaches is also absurd. The ban serves no discernible purpose save to intimidate Muslims. A beach is not a school or a public office -- it is a place maintained for the public benefit for people to lawfully enjoy as they see fit. The authorities cannot claim any right to forcibly expose women's bodies under the guise of enforcing "morality."

The more one looks at what is happening in Europe, the more one realizes that the real problem there is the same as here in the United States: ignorant conservatives endangering their own society by lashing out at outsiders to distract from their own personal failures.
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Re: France

Post by Parodite »

Zack Morris wrote:
Parodite wrote:
Alexis wrote:Jokes aside, I still think it's a bad idea. The places where laïcité should fully apply have already been defined (schools, administrations), they don't need to be extended indefinitely.

Also, there is a non-neglectible number of more pressing questions & problems to solve. Some would go as far as to say: a quite large one. :)
Indeed. And I would prefer the more general question here: what should a modern secular constitution say about ideologies/political movements that want to change that constitution into a non-modern non-secular constitution that is hostile to modern western liberal values.
It's absurd to suggest that allowing women to wear the beachwear of their choice is an affront to a secular constitution. In this case, it is the so-called secularists who are behaving like ignorant and dangerous fundamentalists.
I didn't say that burkinis are an affront to a secular constitution, but suggested that a far more important question and discussion is... what I said. You are welcome to come up with any suggestions. In short, I agreed with Alexis. There are far more important issues than burkinis.

I have the impression that burkinis are for most people who object to them not the real issue for them. They associate burkinis with an ideology and growing political force in society that is hostile to a modern secular constitution and values. Whether this is justified and to what extent remains to be seen but it explains why the same people would have less of a problem with nuns dressing in similar bathing suits or fancy pants dressing up as donald duck on the beach. This is so obvious.
Comparing the situation to nude vs. non-nude beaches is also absurd.
No it isn't. It is a simple fact that what is an affront, insult, provocation, display of immoral behavior, or a disregard for other people's sensitivities.... is (sub) culturally determined. A matter of taste so to speak. When a majority of people don't want naked people walk around on a public beach, democracy will make it prohibited. Fortunately this majority in the West is also of the opinion that nudists have the right to have a beach where they can walk around naked.

Me thinks that a more subconscious thought process of anti-burkinists is: what if the situation were the reverse? A majority of conservative Muslims who want this maximalist dress-code on public beaches, would they allow otherly people to wear minimalist swim suits? And if minimalist swim suits were too hard for them to accept.. would they allow for beaches where these people can go minimalist? The answer is... most likely... NOT. So the equation is like: "if you wouldn't let me wear my minimalist swim suit here.. I won't let you wear your maximalist one here either." Which brings the discussion back to... the constitution what it should say about people with an ideology that is hostile to it. The burkini discussion itself is irrelevant and a distraction from the real issue behind it, that fuels it.
The ban serves no discernible purpose save to intimidate Muslims.
Can agree with that. It is not an effective way to make the point and have the real issue on the table.
A beach is not a school or a public office -- it is a place maintained for the public benefit for people to lawfully enjoy as they see fit. The authorities cannot claim any right to forcibly expose women's bodies under the guise of enforcing "morality."
Again, it is a matter of taste and hence democracy. Nudists themselves have no problem seeing other people naked on a beach. Others do. In your terms: nudists would as well be entitled to lawfully enjoy themselves as they see fit. Authorities cannot claim any right to forcibly put cloths on people under the guise of "enforcing morality", or do they and why? The double standards you apply here are in plain daylight and very common among the "progressive educated masses" which is what the anti-burkini crowds sense all too well. Which makes them even more stubbornly insist that the burkini should be banned! Which makes it even more difficult to get the real issue behind these social tensions, which are mere symptoms, on the table.

Anti-burkinists IMO have justified fears, but are clumsy and tend to make threats bigger than they are (at least for now) and choose the wrong issue to vent their emotions and concerns. Educated progressives tend to think of themselves as educated good-doers in the know, but walk around with systemic blinders. These two groups of people, as represented for instance by Dumpster Trumpsters and Blind Horse Clintonites together create the perfect vacuum where fascistic extremists and arsonists of sorts will more and more see their chance in the future.
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Zack Morris
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Re: France

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Parodite wrote: I have the impression that burkinis are for most people who object to them not the real issue for them. They associate burkinis with an ideology and growing political force in society that is hostile to a modern secular constitution and values. Whether this is justified and to what extent remains to be seen but it explains why the same people would have less of a problem with nuns dressing in similar bathing suits or fancy pants dressing up as donald duck on the beach. This is so obvious.
It makes even less sense then to ban burkinis. And your argument that a liberal democracy is free to do so because it can also ban outright nudity is even more disingenuous. You're quite clear here in your intention: you want to ban the burkini in order to attack and put pressure on what you claim is a hostile ideology but is in fact a legitimate religious belief. In other words, you're trying to make a pathetic excuse for dangerous religious discrimination. Nuns are okay, but modest Muslims are not welcome at the beach.
No it isn't. It is a simple fact that what is an affront, insult, provocation, display of immoral behavior, or a disregard for other people's sensitivities.... is (sub) culturally determined. A matter of taste so to speak. When a majority of people don't want naked people walk around on a public beach, democracy will make it prohibited. Fortunately this majority in the West is also of the opinion that nudists have the right to have a beach where they can walk around naked.
First of all, it is not an affront, an insult, a provocation, or a display of immoral behavior to wear a bikini. Societies have different standards of modesty, to be sure, hence why public nudity is often banned or at least confined to designated zones, but there is no good argument to suggest that being too modest is a harmful behavior. If anything, it is those who are "offended" by burkinis who are committing an act of aggression by demanding someone expose themselves more than they are comfortable solely because of their religious prejudices. They would not make the same demands of someone who does not want excessive sun exposure. They are therefore being religious bigots and are acting as the aggressors here.

That's the difference that apparently you fail to grasp.

So again, if you want to ban the burkini, you'd better ban nuns and the growing number of non-Muslim women who either don't want to get sunburned or who are embracing conservative modesty for entirely secular, progressive reasons.
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Re: France

Post by Parodite »

Zack Morris wrote:
Parodite wrote: I have the impression that burkinis are for most people who object to them not the real issue for them. They associate burkinis with an ideology and growing political force in society that is hostile to a modern secular constitution and values. Whether this is justified and to what extent remains to be seen but it explains why the same people would have less of a problem with nuns dressing in similar bathing suits or fancy pants dressing up as donald duck on the beach. This is so obvious.
It makes even less sense then to ban burkinis.
You would have to make a case with (counter) argument and not just say so. My observation and argument is as-is. I merely say that

(1) I have a strong impression that the anti-burkini gang is not so much upset by burkinis, but rather the ideology and values behind them that are perceived as non-liberal and a threat to their own, and that

(2) to what extent such a fear would be justified is another discussion and remains to be seen.

You maybe have a different perception of (1) and have a personal opinion about (2) which appears to be that Islamic values, from moderate to conservative, are and will not be a threat to modern Western values.

Again, feel free to make you case.
And your argument that a liberal democracy is free to do so because it can also ban outright nudity is even more disingenuous. You're quite clear here in your intention: you want to ban the burkini in order to attack and put pressure on what you claim is a hostile ideology but is in fact a legitimate religious belief.
No need to try Dr Phil me, you'd loose. ;) It is disingenuous on your part to misrepresent my own position on the burkini and presume my intentions for which you have no proof whatsoever. You could also have the decency to just ask before jumping to conclusions, I would give you an honest answer. Since you didn't ask I'll tell you what my personal opinion about the burkinis and the law is:

I don't mind burkinis at all and consider it non-issue. Same for head scarfs. I find it more pathetic to than anything else to make such a big fuzz about it and trying ban them by law a disgrace and totally misplaced in more than one way. And a distraction from what I consider to be the real issue: how to deal with people with anti-constitutional political ideologies, and the question if and how big a threat Muslim immigrants represent for our Western values, freedoms, democracy etc. About the latter I haven't said here anything much, but feel free to ask so we can have a discussion. :D

Burkas I feel ambiguous about; maybe there are places and contexts where I would consider a ban, but not so easily.
In other words, you're trying to make a pathetic excuse for dangerous religious discrimination. Nuns are okay, but modest Muslims are not welcome at the beach.
In other words, you were simply wrong. Because you prefer to assume things before you have all the information.
No it isn't. It is a simple fact that what is an affront, insult, provocation, display of immoral behavior, or a disregard for other people's sensitivities.... is (sub) culturally determined. A matter of taste so to speak. When a majority of people don't want naked people walk around on a public beach, democracy will make it prohibited. Fortunately this majority in the West is also of the opinion that nudists have the right to have a beach where they can walk around naked.
First of all, it is not an affront, an insult, a provocation, or a display of immoral behavior to wear a bikini.
As a matter of personal taste, I agree. But I'm saying these tastes are cultural determined in great part.
Societies have different standards of modesty, to be sure, hence why public nudity is often banned or at least confined to designated zones, but there is no good argument to suggest that being too modest is a harmful behavior.
I totally agree. But there are people with different tastes who consider a bikini to expose way too much female flesh. You should be talking to them maybe.
If anything, it is those who are "offended" by burkinis who are committing an act of aggression by demanding someone expose themselves more than they are comfortable solely because of their religious prejudices.
Hu? People who want the burkini banned in public beaches demand those female Muslims to wear bikinis or go naked even? That's new to me.
They would not make the same demands of someone who does not want excessive sun exposure. They are therefore being religious bigots and are acting as the aggressors here.
They don't demand female Muslims to wear bikinis, they want people who insist to wear a burkini to stay home. Or perhaps organize a burkini-beach for them, just as nudists have their own beach.

What you fail to acknowledge is that "agression" from one group against another as in the case of nudists, bikini or burkini dressers is always personal taste thing (a cultural brain wash) but preferably decided upon in a democratic process and as such should be respected whatever the outcome of such a democratic process is. If in an Islamic country there dress codes for certain beaches, I would not whine about it much and either not go there or go there and conform to their rules. If those rules came to be in a fair and democratic process... all the more. If a handful of male chauvinistic pigs and autocrats have forced those rules top down through everybody's throats.. I would only pity them and those who'd have to live in such a society. Those primitive male rulahs are the real aggressors in this story and whom you should be talking to.
So again, if you want to ban the burkini, you'd better ban nuns and the growing number of non-Muslim women who either don't want to get sunburned or who are embracing conservative modesty for entirely secular, progressive reasons.
Agreed. Everybody is and should be equal under the law. I hope with you this will never change.
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Re: France

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... burka.html
French president Francois Hollande has admitted the country 'has a problem with Islam' and warned France's national symbol will one day by a woman in a burka.

Hollande also branded ethnic minority football stars as 'guys from the estates, without references, without values, who leave France too early', it emerged today.

The words were all part of a more general attack on people from Muslim backgrounds whom the Socialist Mr Hollande views as a major difficulty for his country.

In explosive revelations made by investigative journalists, the Socialist Mr Hollande emerges as every bit as right wing as his hated opponents from the National Front and Republican parties.

In a private conversation contained in a new book called 'A President Should Not Say That…' Mr Hollande says footballers are all part of a serious identity crisis.

He told journalists that there was a 'fragmentation, an ethnicisation' in the France international team and that the 'facts were terrible'.

Mr Hollande made his comments soon after his election in 2012, where he said: 'There is no attachment in this France team.

He said all were poorly educated and not 'psychologically prepared to know the difference between good and evil.'
Well. Imagine if a Republican were to say something like this.
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Re: France

Post by Typhoon »

I see London, I see France . . .

Reuters | France's Fillon overtakes centrist Macron in election ratings - poll
French centrist politician Emmanuel Macron has lost ground to his closest election rival, conservative Francois Fillon, and might not make a May 7 runoff against far-right leader Marine Le Pen, an opinion poll showed on Tuesday.

The poll gives Fillon the position of favourite to win the presidency - a position he lost in the aftermath of a fake work scandal that engulfed his campaign four weeks ago. Others have recently shown him neck-and-neck with Macron

BFM TV said the Elabe poll it commissioned showed that Le Pen, who heads the anti-immigrant and anti-European Union National Front, was easily assured of getting through to the two-candidate knockout, by getting 27-28 percent of the vote in the April 23 first round.
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Re: France

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Bloom | Le Pen Wins Over Women Voters Who Feel Left Behind in France
French women are starting to picture their next president as a divorced mother of three.

The anti-euro, anti-immigrant candidate Marine Le Pen has been playing up her gender as she seeks to convert a likely first-round victory into an overall majority in the run-off on May 7 -- and it’s paying off. The 48-year-old National Front leader has already rallied some 2 million additional female voters to her cause since her last run for president in 2012 and she’s betting more will follow.

“Women are the key,” said Nonna Mayer, a researcher at the Sciences Po institute in Paris who has studied the National Front for 25 years. “These women often abstain and now they are backing Le Pen to protect their jobs and their security.”
Ceci est la plus intéressante.
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Re: France

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.
Typhoon wrote:Bloom | Le Pen Wins Over Women Voters Who Feel Left Behind in France
.

French women are starting to picture their next president as a divorced mother of three.

The anti-euro, anti-immigrant candidate Marine Le Pen has been playing up her gender as she seeks to convert a likely first-round victory into an overall majority in the run-off on May 7 -- and it’s paying off. The 48-year-old National Front leader has already rallied some 2 million additional female voters to her cause since her last run for president in 2012 and she’s betting more will follow.

“Women are the key,” said Nonna Mayer, a researcher at the Sciences Po institute in Paris who has studied the National Front for 25 years. “These women often abstain and now they are backing Le Pen to protect their jobs and their security.”
Ceci est la plus intéressante.

.


Hmmm .. did not think about this


A valid analysis, and true


Time for a "Madame Presidente", indeed


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Re: France

Post by Typhoon »

Image
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Re: France

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Typhoon wrote:Bloom | Le Pen Wins Over Women Voters Who Feel Left Behind in France
French women are starting to picture their next president as a divorced mother of three.

The anti-euro, anti-immigrant candidate Marine Le Pen has been playing up her gender as she seeks to convert a likely first-round victory into an overall majority in the run-off on May 7 -- and it’s paying off. The 48-year-old National Front leader has already rallied some 2 million additional female voters to her cause since her last run for president in 2012 and she’s betting more will follow.

“Women are the key,” said Nonna Mayer, a researcher at the Sciences Po institute in Paris who has studied the National Front for 25 years. “These women often abstain and now they are backing Le Pen to protect their jobs and their security.”
Ceci est la plus intéressante.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rance.html


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Re: France

Post by Alexis »

Typhoon wrote:(what the polls say)
Yes, it looks extremely probable that the second round will be between Le Pen and another candidate. And very probable that Le Pen will have arrived first at first round.

Then, polls about the second round become most important, either Fillon (rightist, pro-EU) vs. Le Pen or Macron (centrist, pro-EU) vs. Le Pen depending on which comes ahead of the other.

A useful summary can be found on this Wiki page.

Image

Image
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: France

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

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Funny


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Alexis
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Re: France

Post by Alexis »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:Funny
Similar to the Cthulhu campaign ahead of America's presidential elections last year: people who are disgrunted about the range of candidates and dream about something else. Only they put it in a more favourable - in their view :) - direction.

That being said, their site counts 43,000 signatures to date - there are 45 millions registered voters in France.
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Re: France

Post by noddy »

and now for something complety different - the pink panther strikes again!

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39121997
A French police sniper has accidentally shot and injured two people during a speech by President Francois Hollande in western France.
The shot was fired as the officer moved position on a roof about 100m (328ft) from a tent where Mr Hollande was speaking in the town of Villognon.
The bullet went through the canvas of the tent, where drinks were being made. It passed through a waiter's thigh and lodged in another person's calf.
i thought Inspector Clouseau was a comic character.
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Re: France

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote:and now for something complety different - the pink panther strikes again!

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39121997
A French police sniper has accidentally shot and injured two people during a speech by President Francois Hollande in western France.
The shot was fired as the officer moved position on a roof about 100m (328ft) from a tent where Mr Hollande was speaking in the town of Villognon.
The bullet went through the canvas of the tent, where drinks were being made. It passed through a waiter's thigh and lodged in another person's calf.
i thought Inspector Clouseau was a comic character.
"If guns are outlawed for politicians, only non-politicians will have guns!" The more you think about it.... the better it sounds.
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Re: France

Post by Alexis »

noddy wrote:
A French police sniper has accidentally shot and injured two people during a speech by President Francois Hollande in western France.
The shot was fired as the officer moved position on a roof about 100m (328ft) from a tent where Mr Hollande was speaking in the town of Villognon.
The bullet went through the canvas of the tent, where drinks were being made. It passed through a waiter's thigh and lodged in another person's calf.
i thought Inspector Clouseau was a comic character.
Well, a sniper sniped, what did you expect?

You say? He didn't snipe right? Hmmm...

Image

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Re: France

Post by Typhoon »

If only they had a safe rheuuuum.
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Re: France

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Typhoon wrote:If only they had a safe rheuuuum.
Uuggghhhh......
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Re: France

Post by Alexis »

Typhoon wrote:If only they had a safe rheuuuum.
Zat was not my talk.

SnXtuktNdlM
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Re: France

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.


Hollande
' ultimate duty ' is to prevent Le Pen victory


"My ultimate duty is to make sure that France is not won over by such a program, and that France does not bear such a heavy responsibility," said Hollande of the risk of a Le Pen victory in the election.

He added it was inevitable that the European Union would have countries progressing at "different speeds" and that he saw no reason to call into question Donald Tusk's role as president of the European Council.

He also said the "euphoria" of financial markets after the election of U.S President Donald Trump appeared to be "very premature".
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Re: France

Post by Alexis »

Here is the Guardian's detailed account of this interview by Hollande to a group of European newspapers - UK will have to give up all EU perks after Brexit, François Hollande warns

Unsurprisingly, they're more interested in Hollande's take on negotiation about a future UK-EU treaty than in his take on FN. :)
The French president, François Hollande, has warned that Britain cannot hang on to the advantages of EU membership after it leaves, saying his message to Britain is: “That’s not possible; the UK will become an outsider to the European Union.”
Regarding Hollande's "My ultimate duty is to do everything to stop France being convinced by such a project or taking on such a heavy responsibility”, he is far from being alone in saying that. The pro-EU rightist candidate Fillon is repeating as such, he said yesterday that his "main opponent" is Marine Le Pen.

Many a candidate, not to say most of them, seem to be obnubilated by Marine Le Pen.

I'm not sure that it's so politically adroit from them to obsess with her, and even worse to let it show... :mrgreen:
Simple Minded

Re: France

Post by Simple Minded »

Alexis wrote:
Typhoon wrote:If only they had a safe rheuuuum.
Zat was not my talk.

SnXtuktNdlM
IMSM experience, put a gun in the hand of a French man or French woman, and they make excellent Americans.

Trump should hire the French sniper as the head of Obama's security detail.

If you have his contact information, please forward to the White House.
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