Spengler discovers Spain

Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: Spengler discovers Spain

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Perhaps we have a lot in common Ymix.
Censorship isn't necessary
User avatar
YMix
Posts: 4631
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:53 am
Location: Department of Congruity - Report any outliers here

Re: Spengler discovers Spain

Post by YMix »

A horrifying thought. :)
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
Hoosiernorm
Posts: 2206
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:59 pm

Re: Spengler discovers Spain

Post by Hoosiernorm »

There's never a good war when you need it to recover the economy. What Europe needs is a war to expand their economies. Who could they bomb...............think think think think. It's gotta be somewhere else and it can't be too big Not Russia too big Not China too big...... Who's big enough to bomb and has a lot of exploitable resources that can be brought back home for booty...... Man I'm still not thinking about anyone...... Who's got lots and lots of oil and a really shitty army right now.... I mean it's gotta be good and the Chinese are gonna have to get some of the steel business on this. The Russians are going to have to get the drilling rights and the secondary surplus military equipment deals. lavender we need someone to really mobilize Europe against right now.

Hey Ymix, could we invade you for a couple of years...................Do you have much oil and gold it's a prerequisite for a good war you know. Hey Azari can you think of any nations that the west could bomb, I mean really bomb well with expensive drones built in Europe and then send Turkish contractors in with European made construction equipment to rebuild? There aren't a lot of places left to bomb and invade so it's gotta be one of the ones we haven't destroyed yet.
Been busy doing stuff
Simple Minded

Re: Spengler discovers Spain

Post by Simple Minded »

Hoosiernorm wrote:There's never a good war when you need it to recover the economy. What Europe needs is a war to expand their economies. Who could they bomb...............think think think think. It's gotta be somewhere else and it can't be too big Not Russia too big Not China too big...... Who's big enough to bomb and has a lot of exploitable resources that can be brought back home for booty...... Man I'm still not thinking about anyone...... Who's got lots and lots of oil and a really shitty army right now.... I mean it's gotta be good and the Chinese are gonna have to get some of the steel business on this. The Russians are going to have to get the drilling rights and the secondary surplus military equipment deals. lavender we need someone to really mobilize Europe against right now.

Hey Ymix, could we invade you for a couple of years...................Do you have much oil and gold it's a prerequisite for a good war you know. Hey Azari can you think of any nations that the west could bomb, I mean really bomb well with expensive drones built in Europe and then send Turkish contractors in with European made construction equipment to rebuild? There aren't a lot of places left to bomb and invade so it's gotta be one of the ones we haven't destroyed yet.
Iceland? Finland? Libya?

The overpopulated Polar Bears in the Arctic Ocean? If you believe in MMGW or giant Mama Guyo Earth farts, we (the West) will be doing them a favor... I'll start the PR campaign by saying they are rabid and they eat those cute little baby seals with the big dark bedroom eyes..
Simple Minded

Re: Spengler discovers Spain

Post by Simple Minded »

YMix wrote:A horrifying thought. :)
More horrifying than you realize..... I often have to look at the byline to tell whether the political opinion post I am reading is from you, Mr. P, Tinker, or Zach...... :D

Maybe some sort of tactile political virus transmitted via infected keyboards.....

Internet mind control softwar......
User avatar
YMix
Posts: 4631
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:53 am
Location: Department of Congruity - Report any outliers here

Re: Spengler discovers Spain

Post by YMix »

Hoosiernorm wrote:Hey Ymix, could we invade you for a couple of years...................Do you have much oil and gold it's a prerequisite for a good war you know.
Why, yes, we have both oil and gold. And better roads than Afghanistan. And far fewer guns per capita. Give me an estimate of how much your troops are going to spend here and maybe we can work something out.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
User avatar
monster_gardener
Posts: 5334
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:36 am
Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........

The Mouse that Roared......

Post by monster_gardener »

YMix wrote:
Hoosiernorm wrote:Hey Ymix, could we invade you for a couple of years...................Do you have much oil and gold it's a prerequisite for a good war you know.
Why, yes, we have both oil and gold. And better roads than Afghanistan. And far fewer guns per capita. Give me an estimate of how much your troops are going to spend here and maybe we can work something out.
Thank you Very Much for helping to run the forum and your post, YMix.

You might find this book interesting.......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mouse_ ... ot_summary

The Mouse That Roared is a 1955 Cold War satirical novel by Irish-American writer Leonard Wibberley, which launched a series of satirical books about an imaginary country in Europe called the Duchy of Grand Fenwick. Wibberley went beyond the merely comic, using the premise to make still-quoted commentaries about modern politics and world situations.

Released in February 1955 by Little, Brown,[1] the novel first appeared under the title The Day New York Was Invaded as a Saturday Evening Post serial in six consecutive weeks, from Christmas Day, 1954, through 29 January 1955. The English edition (London: Robert Hale, 1955) had the author's original title, "The Wrath of Grapes", a play on John Steinbeck's The Grapes of Wrath.

Wibberley wrote four sequels—Beware of the Mouse (1958), The Mouse on the Moon (1962), The Mouse on Wall Street (1969), and The Mouse that Saved the West (1981). Each placed Fenwick in a series of absurd situations in which it faced superpowers and won.

The book takes a satirical look at themes including the nuclear arms race, nuclear weapons in general, and the politics of the United States. The phrase "mouse that roared" has proved a durable meme.
The tiny (three miles by five miles) European Duchy of Grand Fenwick, supposedly located in the Alps between Switzerland and France, proudly retains a pre-industrial economy, dependent almost entirely on making Pinot Grand Fenwick wine. However, an American winery makes a knockoff version, "Pinot Grand Enwick", putting the country on the verge of bankruptcy.

The prime minister decides that their only course of action is to declare war on the United States. Expecting a quick and total defeat (since their standing army is tiny and equipped with bows and arrows), the country confidently expects to rebuild itself through the generous largesse that the United States bestows on all its vanquished enemies (as it did for Germany through the Marshall Plan at the end of World War II). *

Instead, the Duchy defeats the mighty superpower, purely by accident. Landing in New York City, almost completely deserted above ground because of a city-wide disaster drill, the Duchy's invading "army" (composed of the Field Marshal Tully Bascomb, three men-at-arms, and twenty longbowmen) wanders to a top secret government lab and unintentionally captures the "Q-bomb" (a prototype doomsday device that could destroy the world if triggered) and its maker, Dr. Kokintz.

The invaders from Fenwick are sighted by a Civil Defense Squad and are immediately taken to be "men from Mars" when their mail armor is mistaken for reptilian skin. The Secretary of Defense pieces together what has happened (with help from the five lines in his encyclopedia on Grand Fenwick and the Fenwickian flag left behind on a flagpole) and is both ashamed and astonished that the United States was unaware that it had been at war for two months.

With the most powerful bomb in the world now in the smallest country in the world, other countries are quick to react, with the Soviet Union and the United Kingdom offering their support. With the world at the tiny country's mercy, Duchess Gloriana, the leader of Grand Fenwick, lists her terms: all the nuclear weapons of the powerful nations must go through an inspection by impartial scientists and the "Tiny Twenty" (a joke about the "Big Three" Nations) should be formed, a group of twenty small nations so that small nations can get their voices heard as well as large ones. Soon Duchess Gloriana and Tully Bascomb get married, and during the wedding Dr. Kokintz discovers that the bomb is a dud and that the bomb Grand Fenwick used to threaten the world into obedience never had any power whatsoever. However, Dr. Kokintz decides to keep that fact to himself considering that the pretense still furthers the cause of world peace.

* Doesn't always work out that well..... Germans were lucky to be a prize to be pampered (that is not treated as they deserved) between the US (Good Cop) and Soviets (Bad Cop)
Last edited by monster_gardener on Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
User avatar
YMix
Posts: 4631
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:53 am
Location: Department of Congruity - Report any outliers here

Re: Spengler discovers Spain

Post by YMix »

We have a strict "No pampering? No invasion!" policy.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
User avatar
monster_gardener
Posts: 5334
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:36 am
Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........

Revving the Economy with War/ Working in the Poison Gulf....

Post by monster_gardener »

Hoosiernorm wrote:There's never a good war when you need it to recover the economy. What Europe needs is a war to expand their economies. Who could they bomb...............think think think think. It's gotta be somewhere else and it can't be too big Not Russia too big Not China too big...... Who's big enough to bomb and has a lot of exploitable resources that can be brought back home for booty...... Man I'm still not thinking about anyone...... Who's got lots and lots of oil and a really shitty army right now.... I mean it's gotta be good and the Chinese are gonna have to get some of the steel business on this. The Russians are going to have to get the drilling rights and the secondary surplus military equipment deals. lavender we need someone to really mobilize Europe against right now.

Hey Ymix, could we invade you for a couple of years...................Do you have much oil and gold it's a prerequisite for a good war you know. Hey Azari can you think of any nations that the west could bomb, I mean really bomb well with expensive drones built in Europe and then send Turkish contractors in with European made construction equipment to rebuild? There aren't a lot of places left to bomb and invade so it's gotta be one of the ones we haven't destroyed yet.
Thank you Very Much for your post, Hoosier Norm.......
Hey Azari can you think of any nations that the west could bomb, I mean really bomb
Who's got lots and lots of oil and a really shitty army right now.... I mean it's gotta be good and the Chinese are gonna have to get some of the steel business on this. The Russians are going to have to get the drilling rights
This reminds me of some of my exchanges with Alexis and especially Azari........
If as the evidence suggest, the Iranians have Madhi Madness and want World Chaos to force the Madhi to rise out his well in Qom and lead the Shia to victory.....

Sadly, Bibi may be right.........

OTOH it may not really matter....... If the Iranians already have operative Soviet nukes they bought in the collapse of the SU.........

IMVHO the need for fancy delivery systems may be over-rated.....

Israel might not be destroyed but it might be made impractical.........

And depending on how angry/out for revenge Israel is, Iranian property values might drop to Chernobyl level or worse...... the Poison Gulf :twisted: a toxic industrial zone where Japanese robots, remotely piloted vehicles and rad suited workers guide ships and extract resources.... for the benefit of the Chinese and Indians....... This presumes that Israel uses gold :| and not cobalt :(

That actually is an optimistic scenario........ Much more likely is that significant portions of the Northern Hemisphere become uninhabitable........
If humanity is lucky civilization survives in the Southern Hemisphere......
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=74&p=13014&hilit=p ... ulf#p13014

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=43&p=12198&hilit=p ... ulf#p12003

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=43&p=12198&hilit=p ... ulf#p11998
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
User avatar
monster_gardener
Posts: 5334
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:36 am
Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........

Point of the Argument

Post by monster_gardener »

YMix wrote:We have a strict "No pampering? No invasion!" policy.
Thank you Very Much for your Post, Ymix.

Quite Right.........If someone like Vlad "Dracula" Tepes is in charge..........

He didn't like either Turks or Germans invading Romania....

They soon got the point :twisted: :shock: :o of his argument........

As did many others......... :(
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
User avatar
YMix
Posts: 4631
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:53 am
Location: Department of Congruity - Report any outliers here

Re: Spengler discovers Spain

Post by YMix »

Vlad Tepes is still remembered in Romania for making Valahii obey the law the... sharp way. Apparently, that's the only way in these parts. When Romanians have enough of the daily incompetence and corruption, they start fantasizing about a Vlad Tepes risen from his dusty grave to make things right, much to my displeasure.

While I understand (and feel myself on occasion) the impulse to do unto others violently and painfully*, I find such yearning for a vigilante father figure rather annoying.

* "Every man must be tempted, at times, to roll up his sleeves, spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats" - H.L. Mencken
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
planctom
Posts: 112
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:41 pm
Location: Southern Atlantic Ocean

Re: Reading comprehension lesson

Post by planctom »

Huxley wrote:A prediction ("Spain is likely to go bankrupt") is not an expression of preference.

Neither is an observation ("It’s a winner-take-all world").

Hope this helps.
So far, the best post of the thread.
Ibrahim
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:06 am

Re: Reading comprehension lesson

Post by Ibrahim »

planctom wrote:
Huxley wrote:A prediction ("Spain is likely to go bankrupt") is not an expression of preference.

Neither is an observation ("It’s a winner-take-all world").

Hope this helps.
So far, the best post of the thread.

SPengler's preference is for everybody who is not with the Spengler program to die off, and in fact their failing to live according to the Spengler program means that this is exactly what will happen to them. So we know what his preferences really are.

Is it a "winner-take-all-world?" Is that what God told His people? What is "winning" exactly? I would argue it's more than a successful market economy, but I'm sentimental at times.
User avatar
Miss_Faucie_Fishtits
Posts: 2152
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:58 pm

Re: Reading comprehension lesson

Post by Miss_Faucie_Fishtits »

planctom wrote:
Huxley wrote:A prediction ("Spain is likely to go bankrupt") is not an expression of preference.

Neither is an observation ("It’s a winner-take-all world").

Hope this helps.
So far, the best post of the thread.
seconded..........
She irons her jeans, she's evil.........
User avatar
monster_gardener
Posts: 5334
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:36 am
Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........

Does Spengler Channel Chaka Zulu?

Post by monster_gardener »

planctom wrote:
Huxley wrote:A prediction ("Spain is likely to go bankrupt") is not an expression of preference.

Neither is an observation ("It’s a winner-take-all world").

Hope this helps.
So far, the best post of the thread.
Thank you Very Much for your posts, Planctom & Huxley.

Neither is an observation ("It’s a winner-take-all world").
Fair enough.

But if it is true that "It’s a winner-take-all world", should not the most important effort of most and perhaps every "player" be not so much to win as to make certain Nobody/Nobody else wins......

Have read that England historically used this sort of strategy....... Always oppose the strongest...... Switch sides as needed........

MUCH more important to sabotage the other more competent players who have a realistic chance to win than to try to win yourself.....

By this rule, Euros like the Greeks were unwise to allow Germany any chance of rising again....Should not have allowed reunification.... Should not have forgiven the war debt...... Should have pushed for pastoralization: Let the Germans be pig farmers forever :twisted: ..

Likewise, Herbert Hoover should have been prevented from alleviating the Russian/Soviet famine........ :evil:

Have a Chaka Zulu attitude toward life: "Never leave an enemy alive behind you".

And anyone competent is your enemy........ :evil:

FWIW, I think this is a rule only if we let it be that way........

I consider humans to be both cooperative and competitive........

Have to decide which way to be when.........

But I could be wrong.........
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
Huxley
Posts: 124
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:46 pm

Re: Reading comprehension lesson

Post by Huxley »

Ibrahim wrote:SPengler's preference is for everybody who is not with the Spengler program to die off, and in fact their failing to live according to the Spengler program means that this is exactly what will happen to them. So we know what his preferences really are.
Do you have an actual quote to support that, or is it just something you wish Spengler had said so you can preen yourself on your moral and intellectual superiority to an obscure online columnist? Because I don't recall him ever saying that, in the article under discussion or any other. Of course, you're welcome to prove me wrong.
Ibrahim wrote:Is it a "winner-take-all-world?" Is that what God told His people? What is "winning" exactly? I would argue it's more than a successful market economy, but I'm sentimental at times.
I think it's fairly clear that Spengler meant that in the strictly economic sense. If a nation does not excel in a few industries, its fate is economic irrelevance, if not collapse. God has nothing to do with it.

But instead of me restating Spengler's article in my own words, why don't you just read it yourself?
Spengler wrote:In a winner-take-all world, you make a good living by being best at something, or a poor living by producing generic products cheaply.
Again, saying that something will happen does not imply that you wish it will happen. Spengler is here arguing that Spain is headed for economic collapse because of its irresponsible spending and borrowing habits and its lack of industrial ambition, while Germany's economy will continue to thrive because it dominates key industries and its people are hard-working. Whether he's correct or not, this is really not the same thing as saying that Spain is "garbage and the sooner it dies off the better," as you put it, and if you have trouble grasping the difference then I don't know what to tell you.
Last edited by Huxley on Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
Ibrahim
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:06 am

Re: Reading comprehension lesson

Post by Ibrahim »

Huxley wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:SPengler's preference is for everybody who is not with the Spengler program to die off, and in fact their failing to live according to the Spengler program means that this is exactly what will happen to them. So we know what his preferences really are.
Do you have an actual quote to support that, or is it just something you wish Spengler had said so you can preen yourself on your moral and intellectual superiority to an obscure online columnist?
Oh my moral and intellectual superiority to Spengler is old news, as is his obscurity. The general thrust of his entire pseudo-intellectual body of rants is, as Typhoon sagely put it, that certain cultures will continue to exist and thrive insofar as they resemble Spengler.


Because I don't recall him ever saying that, in the article under discussion or any other. Of course, you're welcome to prove me wrong.

Maybe you need to re-read the period between, oh, the early 2000's to the present. He's not exactly subtle.


Ibrahim wrote:Is it a "winner-take-all-world?" Is that what God told His people? What is "winning" exactly? I would argue it's more than a successful market economy, but I'm sentimental at times.
I think it's fairly clear that Spengler meant that in the strictly economic sense. If a nation does not excel in a few industries, its fate is economic irrelevance, if not collapse. God has nothing to do with it.
Again, you're not paying attention to the subtext. Spengler's theology is tribal triumphalism. A Godly nation will breed like rabbits (Africa and Muslim nations excepted) and be economically prosperous.


But instead of me restating Spengler's article in my own words, why don't you just read it yourself?
Trust me, I've served my time reading Spengler's essays. If he's your new hero then you're a few years late. He jumped the shark just about the time he shed the pseudonym to collect a paycheck for a job from which he was fired shortly thereafter.



Spengler wrote:In a winner-take-all world, you make a good living by being best at something, or a poor living by producing generic products cheaply.
Again, saying that something will happen does not imply that you wish it will happen. Spengler is here arguing that Spain is headed for economic collapse because of its irresponsible spending and borrowing habits and its lack of industrial ambition, while Germany's economy will continue to thrive because it dominates key industries and its people are hard-working. Whether he's correct or not, this is really not the same thing as saying that Spain is "garbage and the sooner it dies off the better," as you put it, and if you have trouble grasping the difference then I don't know what to tell you.
You don't need to tell me things. I'll tell you things, like the fact that you're going to the mat for a propagandist hack. He loathes Europe generally and claps when anything bad happens to them, because they aren't racist and Godly enough for his tastes. Though he does have a soft spot for dear old Germany, since their music circa 1720 is the only subject he's actually remotely qualified to discuss.

As for being hard working? Well, I'll pass that along to Spain's dishwashers and miners. I know there is a morality tale in there somewhere, if only some ex-Larouchite slob could just explain it to those lazy Spaniards.
User avatar
Typhoon
Posts: 27242
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:42 pm
Location: 関西

Re: Spengler discovers Spain

Post by Typhoon »

MIT | What does Spain Export?

Spain is not Greece. Many of it's problems are due to an over leveraged construction sector and the exposure of Spanish [and other Euro] banks to it. Somewhat analogous to the US.

Ironically, a significant part of this overbuilding is due to demand for vacation homes by Northerners.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Ammianus
Posts: 306
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:38 pm

Re: Spengler discovers Spain

Post by Ammianus »

Welcome Huxley (or should I say Avicenna?)
User avatar
Miss_Faucie_Fishtits
Posts: 2152
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:58 pm

Spengler discovers Europe

Post by Miss_Faucie_Fishtits »

Okay, guys....... he spells it out, among other things............
She irons her jeans, she's evil.........
Milo
Posts: 206
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:24 am

Re: Spengler discovers Spain

Post by Milo »

The real indication that the PIGS are incompetent is that they don't seem to realize that Iceland is doing great, despite (No, because!) it stiffed the banks!

Of course, it isn't easy to decode that stiffing the banks is the way to go. One sees this everywhere, in the Wikis that I reference here too: articles that bend over backwards to try to show that a bunch of numbers ("the nation's gross domestic product (GDP) dropped by 5.5% in real terms in the first six months of 2010". Oh my! Whatever will I do, I live in a country that is the 14th in HDI worldwide, but the gross domestic thingy is down by single digits!) actually mean economic downturn.

Everyone should just tell the banks to go genuflect themselves; we have proof from Iceland that it's the best economic stimulus of all! Of course, the banks are trying their best to buy tame governments and too many credulous people are falling for it.
Ibrahim
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:06 am

Re: Spengler discovers Spain

Post by Ibrahim »

Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote:Okay, guys....... he spells it out, among other things............
This is just more of the same, i.e. that economic strife is a morality tale demonstrating the inferiority of those lazy Southern Europeans. Worse, not only are they indolent but they were running a scam on Germany in the first place. Why should the ubermenschen tolerate this?! Spain needs to cede sovereignty to their superiors in order to keep the game running a little longer. It's their own fault. Etc.


Oh, and if they vote in governments that refuse to do this they are pagan death-cultists, or something. Since about 2008 all the smart people hate democracy.
Demon of Undoing
Posts: 1764
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:14 pm

Re: Spengler discovers Spain

Post by Demon of Undoing »

Milo wrote:The real indication that the PIGS are incompetent is that they don't seem to realize that Iceland is doing great, despite (No, because!) it stiffed the banks!

Of course, it isn't easy to decode that stiffing the banks is the way to go. One sees this everywhere, in the Wikis that I reference here too: articles that bend over backwards to try to show that a bunch of numbers ("the nation's gross domestic product (GDP) dropped by 5.5% in real terms in the first six months of 2010". Oh my! Whatever will I do, I live in a country that is the 14th in HDI worldwide, but the gross domestic thingy is down by single digits!) actually mean economic downturn.

Everyone should just tell the banks to go genuflect themselves; we have proof from Iceland that it's the best economic stimulus of all! Of course, the banks are trying their best to buy tame governments and too many credulous people are falling for it.

Jesus Christ what's the world coming to. We got Canadians carrying the banner for capitalism !WTF!?!??!!?
User avatar
monster_gardener
Posts: 5334
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:36 am
Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........

Spengler Against Euros submitting to alleged 'superiors'....

Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:
Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote:Okay, guys....... he spells it out, among other things............
This is just more of the same, i.e. that economic strife is a morality tale demonstrating the inferiority of those lazy Southern Europeans. Worse, not only are they indolent but they were running a scam on Germany in the first place. Why should the ubermenschen tolerate this?! Spain needs to cede sovereignty to their superiors in order to keep the game running a little longer. It's their own fault. Etc.


Oh, and if they vote in governments that refuse to do this they are pagan death-cultists, or something. Since about 2008 all the smart people hate democracy.
Thank You very much for your post, Ibrahim.
Spain needs to cede sovereignty to their superiors in order to keep the game running a little longer.
IMVHO Both Incorrect and Unfair...

AIUI Spengler advises the all Euros AGAINST ceding their national sovereignty to the unelected Eurocrat 'superiors' in Brussels.............

Germany is sending strong signals that it would eventually be willing to lift its objections to ideas such as common euro-zone bonds or mutual support for European banks if other European governments were to agree to transfer further powers to Europe.

If embraced, the move would deepen in fundamental ways Europe’s political and fiscal union and represent one of the boldest steps taken by the bloc since the euro was launched. Germany has never before been willing to discuss the conditions it believes necessary to move toward assuming common risks within the euro zone. Now, although the end may be a long way off, it appears willing to discuss those conditions.

“The more that other member states get involved with this development and are prepared to give up sovereign rights to get European institutions more involved, the more we will be prepared to play an active role in developing things like a banking union,” a German official familiar with the discussions told The Wall Street Journal. “You can’t have one without the other.”

The Obama administration, George Soros, the International Monetary Fund, and liberal opinion in general believe that no crisis should be wasted: an enlightened supranational bureaucracy should emerge as the ruler of Europe.

I find this repulsive for the most elemental of reasons: the further that government is removed from the electorate, the more prone it is to abuse. The Brussels bureaucracy is responsible for the catastrophe in the first place, and one doesn’t normally give the gasoline monopoly to a bunch of arsonists.
He does also say:
Nonetheless, the deposits and other short-term obligations of the Spanish financial sector (and all European banks) must be guaranteed. Once its equity and $1.6 trillion in debt is reduced to zero, the Spanish financial sector will become a desirable investment for an outside investor with ready cash — the Chinese, or Canadians, or sovereign wealth funds. Maintaining the day-to-day functioning of the financial sector must be preserved in anticipation of the intervention of an outside buyer; it is an investment that will be repaid. The Spanish won’t like having foreigners take over their finances, but they will have only themselves to blame
But if you still have your sovereignty, you can be free if you are willing to pay the price of your decisions.

Tell me where I am wrong, if I am.

Am willing to learn............
Last edited by monster_gardener on Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
Huxley
Posts: 124
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:46 pm

Re: Reading comprehension lesson

Post by Huxley »

Ibrahim wrote:Oh my moral and intellectual superiority to Spengler is old news
You forgot to mention your modesty. :D
Ibrahim wrote:The general thrust of his entire pseudo-intellectual body of rants is, as Typhoon sagely put it, that certain cultures will continue to exist and thrive insofar as they resemble Spengler.
I'm not sure how a culture can resemble a person, and I don't see Spengler calling for mass conversions to Orthodox Judaism. He does want people to share his belief in a loving God, and he deplores what he sees as the West's rejection of God. He seems to be fairly sanguine about non-Judeo-Christian China and India, however.
Ibrahim wrote:Maybe you need to re-read the period between, oh, the early 2000's to the present. He's not exactly subtle.
I agree that he's not subtle, which is why it should be a simple matter to furnish a quote - really, just one quote would be enough - clearly showing Spengler's "preference ... for everybody who is not with the Spengler program to die off." I am really, at this point, sincerely curious to see such a citation, as it would cause me to rethink my opinion of Spengler. I know you probably have better things to do than sift through the man's collected writings for my sake, but I would greatly appreciate it if you could find some snippet of text on which to base your assertion. There seems to be a fundamental difference of interpretation here, as if we're reading a completely different set of articles, and I'd like to get to the bottom of this.
Ibrahim wrote:Again, you're not paying attention to the subtext. Spengler's theology is tribal triumphalism. A Godly nation will breed like rabbits (Africa and Muslim nations excepted) and be economically prosperous.
Finding subtexts is fun, but I'd rather stick to the actual content of the article as stated in plain English.

This article says nothing about breeding save for a paragraph about Germany's demographic crisis. Note that Germany is Spengler's designated "winner" country. He thinks, in other words, that Germany will thrive in spite of its demographic problems (it will plug the gap with immigrants). About Spain's demographics, he has nothing to say at all, in this article.

And what is this about "Godly nations"? Where does Spengler even mention God? Isn't Germany pretty much as godless as Spain, if not more so? The whole issue of religion and demography is irrelevant in this context. It's an article about the sharply different economic statuses and futures of two equally godless European nations. Why is that so hard for you to accept?
Ibrahim wrote:Trust me, I've served my time reading Spengler's essays. If he's your new hero then you're a few years late. He jumped the shark just about the time he shed the pseudonym to collect a paycheck for a job from which he was fired shortly thereafter.
Been reading Spengler for longer than you have, in all likelihood.
Ibrahim wrote:You don't need to tell me things. I'll tell you things, like the fact that you're going to the mat for a propagandist hack.
I'm not going to the mat for anyone. It's just that I feel compelled to point out that what you're saying doesn't make any sense. "Someone is WRONG on the Internet" and all that.
Ibrahim wrote:He loathes Europe generally and claps when anything bad happens to them, because they aren't racist and Godly enough for his tastes.
Is there any issue which is not, in your mind, connected to racism? "They aren't racist and Godly enough for his tastes" - what does that even mean? I thought Spengler's whole point about Europe was that it lost its way when the vision of universal Christian empire was replaced by national self-idolatry (hint, racism).
Ibrahim wrote:Though he does have a soft spot for dear old Germany, since their music circa 1720 is the only subject he's actually remotely qualified to discuss.
Well, he was the head of debt research at Bank of America, so he's probably qualified to discuss a bit more than 18th-century German music, like for example finance and economics, but whatever. It's interesting to me that you would devote so much time and energy to commenting on the articles of someone you consider to be an ignorant, racist hack.
Ibrahim wrote:As for being hard working? Well, I'll pass that along to Spain's dishwashers and miners. I know there is a morality tale in there somewhere, if only some ex-Larouchite slob could just explain it to those lazy Spaniards.
Slob? Interesting. Anyway, "hard-working" was a misnomer, and I take it back. Obviously, I'm not claiming, nor do I think Spengler is claiming, that no Spaniards work hard. I know this is precisely what you'd like to think Spengler is claiming, so you can demolish his argument effortlessly by pointing out the startling fact that some Spaniards do, indeed, work hard. I won't let you do that.

As I understand it, Spengler's argument is simply that the following factors:

-profligate spending and borrowing
-state dependency
-soaring labor costs
-massive construction bubble
-lack of ambition to dominate the world in any key industries

...have combined to drive Spain to the brink of economic collapse. Germany has none of these problems and its economy is therefore doing extremely well. Germany will thrive, while Spain will be reduced to poverty. That's it.

Now, as an economic ignoramus, I'm not qualified to defend this argument point by point. All I can say is that this is Spengler's argument - not some nonsense about godliness, racism, or whatever other preoccupation you feel the bizarre need to impute to him. Spengler could well be totally wrong, and if you're so confident that he is, and that you have the facts to prove it, I eagerly await your crushing rebuttal.
Post Reply