Spengler discovers Spain

Ibrahim
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Re: Reading comprehension lesson

Post by Ibrahim »

Huxley wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:Oh my moral and intellectual superiority to Spengler is old news
You forgot to mention your modesty. :D
In this case it's a low bar. Plenty of people sail over it.



Ibrahim wrote:The general thrust of his entire pseudo-intellectual body of rants is, as Typhoon sagely put it, that certain cultures will continue to exist and thrive insofar as they resemble Spengler.
I'm not sure how a culture can resemble a person,
I.e. people behave the way he behaves/thinks they should behave.

and I don't see Spengler calling for mass conversions to Orthodox Judaism. He does want people to share his belief in a loving God, and he deplores what he sees as the West's rejection of God. He seems to be fairly sanguine about non-Judeo-Christian China and India, however.
He wrote about the pending Christianization of China several times. Plus, they teach their kids to play the cello.


Ibrahim wrote:Maybe you need to re-read the period between, oh, the early 2000's to the present. He's not exactly subtle.
I agree that he's not subtle, which is why it should be a simple matter to furnish a quote - really, just one quote would be enough - clearly showing Spengler's "preference ... for everybody who is not with the Spengler program to die off."


Spengler has pretensions of being taken seriously, so he was slightly more subtle about his intent than a e.g a white supremacist website. Consequently there are no specific quotes to that effect. He often predicts they will die off, and boasts that most of the cultures that are dying off are worthless. I'm inferring his preference for that outcome based on his libel that all groups that don't meet his standards are "pagans" and "most aren't worth a Master's thesis" etc. His tribalism is pretty crass and transparent.



Ibrahim wrote:Again, you're not paying attention to the subtext. Spengler's theology is tribal triumphalism. A Godly nation will breed like rabbits (Africa and Muslim nations excepted) and be economically prosperous.
Finding subtexts is fun, but I'd rather stick to the actual content of the article as stated in plain English.

This article says nothing about breeding
Are you seriously telling me that Spengler doesn't write about breeding? Hasn't positively droned on about it for a decade? I was not referring to this article specifically re: breeding, but it's one of the main props to his (post-LaRouche) life's work.

Germany will thrive in spite of its demographic problems (it will plug the gap with immigrants).
Spengler is wrong about this as well. German productivity, and thus compensation for demographic decline, is and will be due to automation. The economic "losers" also have plenty of immigrants.


And what is this about "Godly nations"? Where does Spengler even mention God?
Again, I refer you to the previous decade.

Isn't Germany pretty much as godless as Spain, if not more so?
Right, but one produced Bach, and so gets a pass from Spenglerman. Also, he hates Picasso. Strike two.

The whole issue of religion and demography is irrelevant in this context. It's an article about the sharply different economic statuses and futures of two equally godless European nations. Why is that so hard for you to accept?
It fits into his broader narrative, even if they are not central to this particular essay. It conforms to his general suck-up, kick-down ethos.

Ibrahim wrote:Trust me, I've served my time reading Spengler's essays. If he's your new hero then you're a few years late. He jumped the shark just about the time he shed the pseudonym to collect a paycheck for a job from which he was fired shortly thereafter.
Been reading Spengler for longer than you have, in all likelihood.
Sad.


Ibrahim wrote:You don't need to tell me things. I'll tell you things, like the fact that you're going to the mat for a propagandist hack.
I'm not going to the mat for anyone. It's just that I feel compelled to point out that what you're saying doesn't make any sense. "Someone is WRONG on the Internet" and all that.
Ah, well you needn't worry then. In this case I'm entirely correct.


Ibrahim wrote:He loathes Europe generally and claps when anything bad happens to them, because they aren't racist and Godly enough for his tastes.
Is there any issue which is not, in your mind, connected to racism? "They aren't racist and Godly enough for his tastes" - what does that even mean? I thought Spengler's whole point about Europe was that it lost its way when the vision of universal Christian empire was replaced by national self-idolatry (hint, racism).
In Spengler's sick mind Europe is entirely suspect because they don't discriminate against Muslims generally, and Palestinians in particular, enough. Perhaps you were on his old forum right after the Breivik shootings in Norway, where he and his inner circle were arguing that Norway was suffering the karmic consequences for backing Palestine at the UN? Or perhaps you remember when he was still on the "Eurabia" bandwagon, arguing for halts to Muslim immigration to Europe. In fact perhaps you missed the entire tone of every forum he's ever been on, which involved systematic dehumanization and historical revisionism directed at Arabs and blacks? This has been present on every forum he's ever "resided" on, with his most egregious fans never disciplined. Meanwhile many on this forum were banned from Spengler forums for expressing basic objections to that program of overt racist propaganda.

Oh, and it never ceases to amuse me when people claim that I consider everything to be racist any time I point out obvious racism or other forms of prejudice and bias. Pardon me for being too provincial.

Ibrahim wrote:Though he does have a soft spot for dear old Germany, since their music circa 1720 is the only subject he's actually remotely qualified to discuss.
Well, he was the head of debt research at Bank of America, so he's probably qualified to discuss a bit more than 18th-century German music, like for example finance and economics, but whatever. It's interesting to me that you would devote so much time and energy to commenting on the articles of someone you consider to be an ignorant, racist hack.
Attacking and dismantling racist propaganda is fun to me. I think defending it is the really odd passtime.
As to Spengler also knowing something about economics, that doesn't exactly justify his decade of essays on demographics, history, and theology, all of which is a huge embarrassment of falsehood and propaganda. So that leaves banking as a credential, which isn't what it used to be post 2008.

Ibrahim wrote:As for being hard working? Well, I'll pass that along to Spain's dishwashers and miners. I know there is a morality tale in there somewhere, if only some ex-Larouchite slob could just explain it to those lazy Spaniards.
Slob? Interesting. Anyway, "hard-working" was a misnomer, and I take it back. Obviously, I'm not claiming, nor do I think Spengler is claiming, that no Spaniards work hard. I know this is precisely what you'd like to think Spengler is claiming, so you can demolish his argument effortlessly by pointing out the startling fact that some Spaniards do, indeed, work hard. I won't let you do that.
Again, you're confused. You don't let me do things. Especially right after "taking back" precisely the statement I was commenting on, what arguing my comments are invalid in the same paragraph.



As I understand it, Spengler's argument is simply that the following factors:

-profligate spending and borrowing
-state dependency
-soaring labor costs
-massive construction bubble
Sounds like every other developed nation post-2008.

-lack of ambition to dominate the world in any key industries
This one is quite funny. Apparently ever nation on Earth needs to dominate a key industry.



Now, as an economic ignoramus, I'm not qualified to defend this argument point by point. All I can say is that this is Spengler's argument - not some nonsense about godliness, racism, or whatever other preoccupation you feel the bizarre need to impute to him.
I only "impute" to him what he's been writing about for over ten years. The people he attracts, and who subsequently defend his drivel, move casually between defending his central theses and denying he's making them in the first place, depending on the context.
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monster_gardener
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Goldman Splengler Likes Portugal......

Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:
Typhoon wrote:PJM | Lessons from Europe’s Winners and Losers

Now Spenglerman has become a Germanophile. What next?

Still, no one, especially Spenglerman, expects the Spanish Inquisition.

Remember the core of Spengler's ethical wisdom and deep moral convictions: if your country doesn't turn a profit then it's garbage and the sooner it dies off the better.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Ibrahim.
if your country doesn't turn a profit then it's garbage and the sooner it dies off the better.[/
Then why does Goldman Spengler ;) like Portugal as opposed to Spain.......
(Portugal is an exception. The stoic Portuguese work had and pay their taxes, which gives that small country a better shot than Spain.)

Note to Endo: Spengler may be a not so secret admirer............ ;)
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Spain, China & Draco........ Civil War and Bankruptcy

Post by monster_gardener »

Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote:Okay, guys....... he spells it out, among other things............
Thank You VERY Much for your post and the Link, LzzrdGrrl.
Alone in the world, Spanish banks drastically increased their lending after the 2008 crisis — by nearly two and a half times — while overall bank lending in the United States and the eurozone barely changed due to weak economic conditions.
IIRC Goldman Spengler may be partially wrong here....... I remember reading Chinese Banks also continued to issue loans after the Crash because the Chinese Government told them to do so....... Was not going to take any chance of economic fuel unrest........

Perhaps that is the reason the Spanish did likewise from memories of the NASTY civil war which was prelude to WW2.........

Or maybe the DRACONIAN Bankruptcy laws Spain has.........

Wonder if they apply to Bankers as well as the common business and mortgage loan holder..........
Last edited by monster_gardener on Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Milo
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Re: Spengler discovers Spain

Post by Milo »

Demon of Undoing wrote:
Milo wrote:The real indication that the PIGS are incompetent is that they don't seem to realize that Iceland is doing great, despite (No, because!) it stiffed the banks!

Of course, it isn't easy to decode that stiffing the banks is the way to go. One sees this everywhere, in the Wikis that I reference here too: articles that bend over backwards to try to show that a bunch of numbers ("the nation's gross domestic product (GDP) dropped by 5.5% in real terms in the first six months of 2010". Oh my! Whatever will I do, I live in a country that is the 14th in HDI worldwide, but the gross domestic thingy is down by single digits!) actually mean economic downturn.

Everyone should just tell the banks to go genuflect themselves; we have proof from Iceland that it's the best economic stimulus of all! Of course, the banks are trying their best to buy tame governments and too many credulous people are falling for it.

Jesus Christ what's the world coming to. We got Canadians carrying the banner for capitalism !WTF!?!??!!?
We might be left compared to America, but so is everyone.
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Azrael
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Re: Spengler discovers Spain

Post by Azrael »

YMix wrote:
Enki wrote:Funny how Spengler has every property of the vicious pagan he speaks of, but then thinks that because he's Jewish he gets a pass.
Exceptionalism. Quite a popular idea in some places.
A lot of places: American Exceptionalism, French Exceptionalism, German Exceptionalism, British Exceptionalism, Israeli Exceptionalism, Chinese Exceptionalism, Canadian Exceptionalism, Indian Exceptionalsim, Australian Exceptionalism, Japanese Exceptionalism, Russian Exceptionalism -- there's bound to be a few I've missed (and I haven't made any of them up).
cultivate a white rose
Huxley
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Re: Reading comprehension lesson

Post by Huxley »

Ibrahim wrote:Spengler has pretensions of being taken seriously, so he was slightly more subtle about his intent than a e.g a white supremacist website. Consequently there are no specific quotes to that effect. He often predicts they will die off, and boasts that most of the cultures that are dying off are worthless. I'm inferring his preference for that outcome based on his libel that all groups that don't meet his standards are "pagans" and "most aren't worth a Master's thesis" etc. His tribalism is pretty crass and transparent.
Well... Spengler is a Jew. That implies certain beliefs, among them that all nations "are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance." It's a belief that seems to hold up pretty well, in light of the fact that virtually all cultures that have ever existed are currently extinct, and that more than half of the world's languages are expected to die out by the end of the century. Who cares if Spengler seems to gloat over this - a mass extinction of cultures is underway whether we like it or not, and Spengler's hope is that this will pave the way for a common belief in the God of the Bible. To call this "tribalistic" is a huge misnomer - Spengler is advocating a particular set of beliefs, not a "tribe," and I would venture to guess that you share with Spengler a desire to see your beliefs triumph over all others, which would explain why you spend so much time on this forum doing things like "attacking and dismantling racist propaganda."
Ibrahim wrote:Are you seriously telling me that Spengler doesn't write about breeding? Hasn't positively droned on about it for a decade? I was not referring to this article specifically re: breeding, but it's one of the main props to his (post-LaRouche) life's work.
See, I thought this thread was about the article linked to in the opening post.
Ibrahim wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:He loathes Europe generally and claps when anything bad happens to them, because they aren't racist and Godly enough for his tastes.
Is there any issue which is not, in your mind, connected to racism? "They aren't racist and Godly enough for his tastes" - what does that even mean? I thought Spengler's whole point about Europe was that it lost its way when the vision of universal Christian empire was replaced by national self-idolatry (hint, racism).
In Spengler's sick mind Europe is entirely suspect because they don't discriminate against Muslims generally, and Palestinians in particular, enough. Perhaps you were on his old forum right after the Breivik shootings in Norway, where he and his inner circle were arguing that Norway was suffering the karmic consequences for backing Palestine at the UN? Or perhaps you remember when he was still on the "Eurabia" bandwagon, arguing for halts to Muslim immigration to Europe. In fact perhaps you missed the entire tone of every forum he's ever been on, which involved systematic dehumanization and historical revisionism directed at Arabs and blacks? This has been present on every forum he's ever "resided" on, with his most egregious fans never disciplined. Meanwhile many on this forum were banned from Spengler forums for expressing basic objections to that program of overt racist propaganda.

Oh, and it never ceases to amuse me when people claim that I consider everything to be racist any time I point out obvious racism or other forms of prejudice and bias. Pardon me for being too provincial.
Well, again, I'm going by the explicit content of his articles. I am not familiar with all of Spengler's forum postings and I did not read his take on the Breivik shootings. As for "Eurabia," if you think halting Muslim immigration to Europe is "racist," then all I can say is that you have a far more expansive definition of racism than I do. I am not aware of Spengler's "systematic dehumanization and historical revisionism directed at Arabs and blacks." In your mind, maybe.
Ibrahim wrote:Again, you're confused. You don't let me do things. Especially right after "taking back" precisely the statement I was commenting on, what arguing my comments are invalid in the same paragraph.
Fair enough. I stand corrected.
Ibrahim wrote:
As I understand it, Spengler's argument is simply that the following factors:

-profligate spending and borrowing
-state dependency
-soaring labor costs
-massive construction bubble
Sounds like every other developed nation post-2008.
Except Germany. Which is sort of the point of the article.
Ibrahim wrote:
-lack of ambition to dominate the world in any key industries
This one is quite funny. Apparently ever nation on Earth needs to dominate a key industry.
If you are a major nation that wants to be economically relevant in the world, then yeah.
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Enki
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Re: Spengler discovers Spain

Post by Enki »

Thing about Zionism is it is predicated on this notion of 'one eternal nation'. There are plenty of tribes that have a continuous identity that are older than the Jewish people.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Milo
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Re: Spengler discovers Spain

Post by Milo »

Enki wrote:Thing about Zionism is it is predicated on this notion of 'one eternal nation'. There are plenty of tribes that have a continuous identity that are older than the Jewish people.
There is not one Zionism. Many simply feel that Jews need Israel so they aren't butchered wholesale every couple of generations.
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Re: Spengler discovers Spain

Post by Zack Morris »

Milo wrote:
Enki wrote:Thing about Zionism is it is predicated on this notion of 'one eternal nation'. There are plenty of tribes that have a continuous identity that are older than the Jewish people.
There is not one Zionism. Many simply feel that Jews need Israel so they aren't butchered wholesale every couple of generations.
If that's the primary concern, Israel was a terrible place to put them.
Milo
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Re: Spengler discovers Spain

Post by Milo »

Zack Morris wrote:
Milo wrote:
Enki wrote:Thing about Zionism is it is predicated on this notion of 'one eternal nation'. There are plenty of tribes that have a continuous identity that are older than the Jewish people.
There is not one Zionism. Many simply feel that Jews need Israel so they aren't butchered wholesale every couple of generations.
If that's the primary concern, Israel was a terrible place to put them.
They were already there, just not as Israel.
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Re: Reading comprehension lesson

Post by Ibrahim »

Huxley wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:Spengler has pretensions of being taken seriously, so he was slightly more subtle about his intent than a e.g a white supremacist website. Consequently there are no specific quotes to that effect. He often predicts they will die off, and boasts that most of the cultures that are dying off are worthless. I'm inferring his preference for that outcome based on his libel that all groups that don't meet his standards are "pagans" and "most aren't worth a Master's thesis" etc. His tribalism is pretty crass and transparent.
Well... Spengler is a Jew. That implies certain beliefs,

So you've conceded my assessment is correct and now you want to discuss why he holds these positions? Not interested, though I will add that I've met plenty of Jews, and few of them thought like Spengler.

Who cares if Spengler seems to gloat over this
You were the one telling me that isn't what he's doing. Make up your mind.


Spengler is advocating a particular set of beliefs, not a "tribe,"
He's advocating both.



Ibrahim wrote:Are you seriously telling me that Spengler doesn't write about breeding? Hasn't positively droned on about it for a decade? I was not referring to this article specifically re: breeding, but it's one of the main props to his (post-LaRouche) life's work.
See, I thought this thread was about the article linked to in the opening post.
So the concept of putting a specific piece of writing in the context of a larger body of work is foreign to you?


Ibrahim wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:He loathes Europe generally and claps when anything bad happens to them, because they aren't racist and Godly enough for his tastes.
Is there any issue which is not, in your mind, connected to racism? "They aren't racist and Godly enough for his tastes" - what does that even mean? I thought Spengler's whole point about Europe was that it lost its way when the vision of universal Christian empire was replaced by national self-idolatry (hint, racism).
In Spengler's sick mind Europe is entirely suspect because they don't discriminate against Muslims generally, and Palestinians in particular, enough. Perhaps you were on his old forum right after the Breivik shootings in Norway, where he and his inner circle were arguing that Norway was suffering the karmic consequences for backing Palestine at the UN? Or perhaps you remember when he was still on the "Eurabia" bandwagon, arguing for halts to Muslim immigration to Europe. In fact perhaps you missed the entire tone of every forum he's ever been on, which involved systematic dehumanization and historical revisionism directed at Arabs and blacks? This has been present on every forum he's ever "resided" on, with his most egregious fans never disciplined. Meanwhile many on this forum were banned from Spengler forums for expressing basic objections to that program of overt racist propaganda.

Oh, and it never ceases to amuse me when people claim that I consider everything to be racist any time I point out obvious racism or other forms of prejudice and bias. Pardon me for being too provincial.
Well, again, I'm going by the explicit content of his articles. I am not familiar with all of Spengler's forum postings and I did not read his take on the Breivik shootings. As for "Eurabia," if you think halting Muslim immigration to Europe is "racist," then all I can say is that you have a far more expansive definition of racism than I do.


It's obviously racist, being indistinguishable from racial discrimination for a number of reasons I've explained previously. How is the behavior of a man who hates blacks towards blacks any different from the behavior of a man who hates Muslims towards Muslims? It's exactly the same thing, and symptomatic of the same moral and intellectual deficiencies.

Still, kind of you to tacitly admit that this prejudice exists in Spengler's work, and simply shift your argument to defense of the prejudice as "not technically racist." We're cutting through the clutter faster than I had anticipated.





Ibrahim wrote:
As I understand it, Spengler's argument is simply that the following factors:

-profligate spending and borrowing
-state dependency
-soaring labor costs
-massive construction bubble
Sounds like every other developed nation post-2008.
Except Germany. Which is sort of the point of the article.
Are you being serious? Do you have any clue what labor costs in Germany are, or what each citizen is entitled to from the German government? I can't claim to be up to speed on their real estate market, but presumably it will only and always grow.


Ibrahim wrote:
-lack of ambition to dominate the world in any key industries
This one is quite funny. Apparently ever nation on Earth needs to dominate a key industry.
If you are a major nation that wants to be economically relevant in the world, then yeah.
That's the position I'm laughing at.
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Re: Spengler discovers Spain

Post by Ibrahim »

Zack Morris wrote:
Milo wrote:
Enki wrote:Thing about Zionism is it is predicated on this notion of 'one eternal nation'. There are plenty of tribes that have a continuous identity that are older than the Jewish people.
There is not one Zionism. Many simply feel that Jews need Israel so they aren't butchered wholesale every couple of generations.
If that's the primary concern, Israel was a terrible place to put them.

It's an old game. European Jews (and gypsies and Catholics and Slavs and homosexuals and the mentally ill and the physically disabled) suffered an historic atrocity, so a new nation state was created to allow the Jews to perpetuate the cycle. Violent maniac "settlers" aside, Zionism isn't relevant anymore. Israel exists as a modern nation state, not as the ethno-religious movement that birthed it.
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Not a Good Neighborhood..........

Post by monster_gardener »

Zack Morris wrote:
Milo wrote:
Enki wrote:Thing about Zionism is it is predicated on this notion of 'one eternal nation'. There are plenty of tribes that have a continuous identity that are older than the Jewish people.
There is not one Zionism. Many simply feel that Jews need Israel so they aren't butchered wholesale every couple of generations.
If that's the primary concern, Israel was a terrible place to put them.
Thank you VERY Much for your post, Zack Morris.

I largely agree...

But in the run up to WW2/the Holocaust, it was still better than where they were......

Disarmed and hunted in the Reich.......

Have to take what you can get..... even if the Imperial Overlord has over promised you and your rivals..... and is trying to renege........

Nowadays we do have the ability to act as well as think 3 dimensionally where there is open territory: Outer Space and Undersea........

Become the real Men/Women Up Over and Down Under :wink:

We really need to do it.......

This Rock
Is scheduled for another Knock
By a Dinosaur Killer.........
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NationState vs Irredentist Infestive EnthnoReligous Movement

Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:
Zack Morris wrote:
Milo wrote:
Enki wrote:Thing about Zionism is it is predicated on this notion of 'one eternal nation'. There are plenty of tribes that have a continuous identity that are older than the Jewish people.
There is not one Zionism. Many simply feel that Jews need Israel so they aren't butchered wholesale every couple of generations.
If that's the primary concern, Israel was a terrible place to put them.

It's an old game. European Jews (and gypsies and Catholics and Slavs and homosexuals and the mentally ill and the physically disabled) suffered an historic atrocity, so a new nation state was created to allow the Jews to perpetuate the cycle. Violent maniac "settlers" aside, Zionism isn't relevant anymore. Israel exists as a modern nation state, not as the ethno-religious movement that birthed it.
Thank You VERY Much for your post, Ibrahim.
Israel exists as a modern nation state, not as the ethno-religious movement that birthed it.
Hmmmnnnn...... You may be right in part....... Secular Jews and others vs. the Penguins......

BUT... a malignant ethno-religious movement is out to erase Israel as a "modern nation state":

Irredentist Islam...Which is also Intent on Invading and Infecting and Infesting the Entire World...

More than one flavor..........
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Re: Spengler discovers Spain

Post by Mr. Perfect »

It's been thousands of years since jews have had it this good. Good on them. I expect it to continue.
Censorship isn't necessary
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Without G_d, Nothing Good Lasts Forever...........

Post by monster_gardener »

Mr. Perfect wrote:It's been thousands of years since jews have had it this good. Good on them. I expect it to continue.
Thank you VERY Much for your post, Mr. Perfect.
It's been thousands of years since jews have had it this good.
True.

It's nice having your own country while others exist where you don't have have to be a dhimmi or fear persecution usually......

Good on them.
Seconded.

And on Uz & friends too...........
I expect it to continue
I sincerely hope and pray that you are right but I don't count on it........

Without G_d, Nothing, especially Nothing Good, lasts forever.......

Eternal vigilance is necessary........ This has happened before.....

Cyrus lets you go home and helps build the temple and along comes Haman.........

Civic liberation & integration in Europe, then Dreyfus shows what lies beneath......... Those who don't get out face Hitler.....

Even now...... Israel is in a BAD neighborhood........

May have to do terrible things to stay there.... but will not be as sheepish :( as last time....... Samson Lives :twisted:

As a Meme.........

Need to have several plan Bs in place.......

Ideally get colonies set up in Space....... First on the Moon and later Hollow World Asteroid colonies that can go to the stars.........

Above applies to Uz and anyone wise enough to watch the stars as they fall.....

Dinosaur Killer out there..........

Nothin' Good Lasts Forever............
nemYyxe10mE

Not without a lot of effort.......

Laws of Entropy:
1. You can't win 2. You can't break even 3. You can't get out of the game (this is where G_d comes in.........)
Last edited by monster_gardener on Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Huxley
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Re: Reading comprehension lesson

Post by Huxley »

Ibrahim wrote:
Huxley wrote:Well... Spengler is a Jew. That implies certain beliefs,
So you've conceded my assessment is correct and now you want to discuss why he holds these positions?
No, I do not concede that your assessment is correct, which is, and I quote, "Spengler's preference is for everybody who is not with the Spengler program to die off." Rather, Spengler wants to see his core beliefs and values triumph, and he wants cultures and ideologies that he considers evil and fundamentally antithetical to his own values to perish. There's a non-negligible distance between this, and saying that he wishes everyone who disagrees with him to "die off." Anyway, don't you, Ibrahim, want your core beliefs and values to triumph? Don't you want cultures and ideologies that you consider evil and fundamentally antithetical to your own values to perish? Do you not, for example, hope for the eventual extinction of racism and racist ideologies and cultures? If not, then why not?
Ibrahim wrote:
Huxley wrote:Who cares if Spengler seems to gloat over this
You were the one telling me that isn't what he's doing. Make up your mind.
Let me clarify. I do not think Spengler gloats over the extinction of cultures, which is why I used the word "if." He regards it as tragic and sad, but inevitable - his prescription has always been: "Live and let die. If people insist on killing themselves, there is little you can do to stop it." However, I'm guessing there's absolutely no hope of convincing you on this point, so let's assume for the sake of argument that he is gloating. What of it, then? Spengler is one of the few commentators in the English-speaking world even bringing up the subject. You ought to give him credit for that, at least.
Ibrahim wrote:So the concept of putting a specific piece of writing in the context of a larger body of work is foreign to you?
Yeah, I get that, it's just that the "context," as you perceive it, is completely irrelevant to the article at hand. Again, the article is an economic diagnosis of two European countries, in which the subject of religion is not even hinted at, and the subject of demographics is only brought up to make a point which has no bearing on Spengler's previous writings on the topic.

I'm still interested to hear why you think Spengler is wrong about Spain - i.e. why Spain is not on the brink of collapse, or if it is, then what the actual causes of its economic misfortunes are, as opposed to the phoney ones that Spengler posits.
Ibrahim wrote:It's obviously racist, being indistinguishable from racial discrimination for a number of reasons I've explained previously. How is the behavior of a man who hates blacks towards blacks any different from the behavior of a man who hates Muslims towards Muslims? It's exactly the same thing, and symptomatic of the same moral and intellectual deficiencies.
I thought Islam was a religion, not a race? I thought the Muslim world comprised a vast variety of different races? How, then, is restricting Muslim immigration "obviously racist"?

If I hate Christianity and discriminate against Christians, is that "exactly the same thing" as racism? If I hate Communism and discriminate against Communists, is that "exactly the same thing" as racism? If you, Ibrahim, hate a certain movement or belief system - say, the Tea Party - and you discriminate against its adherents, is that "exactly the same thing" as racism?

Thanks for clearing this up for me.
Ibrahim wrote:Are you being serious? Do you have any clue what labor costs in Germany are, or what each citizen is entitled to from the German government? I can't claim to be up to speed on their real estate market, but presumably it will only and always grow.
This is a good example of why it's important to read the article that one is attacking. See, as Spengler points out in paragraph eight, unit labor costs have remained virtually unchanged in Germany since 2000, while they have risen by 40% in Spain. The contrast is between a country where labor costs are skyrocketing and another country where they have remained flat, not between a country where labor costs are high and another country where they are low. As for real estate, the construction sector in Spain is as big as the manufacturing sector, while Germany's construction sector is one-fifth the size of manufacturing.
Ibrahim wrote:
Huxley wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:This one is quite funny. Apparently ever nation on Earth needs to dominate a key industry.
If you are a major nation that wants to be economically relevant in the world, then yeah.
That's the position I'm laughing at.
Why? Do you have a counterexample?
Last edited by Huxley on Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Huxley
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Re: Spengler discovers Spain

Post by Huxley »

Ammianus wrote:Welcome Huxley (or should I say Avicenna?)
Thanks Ammianus for your kind welcome!

As to my identity, I ain't saying... ;)
Ibrahim
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Re: Reading comprehension lesson

Post by Ibrahim »

Huxley wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Huxley wrote:Well... Spengler is a Jew. That implies certain beliefs,
So you've conceded my assessment is correct and now you want to discuss why he holds these positions?
No, I do not concede that your assessment is correct, which is, and I quote, "Spengler's preference is for everybody who is not with the Spengler program to die off." Rather, Spengler wants to see his core beliefs and values triumph, and he wants cultures and ideologies that he considers evil and fundamentally antithetical to his own values to perish.
This is the same thing exactly. Spengler's "values" are totalizing, and his cheerleading for the death of every other set of values is, shall we say, unflattering.


Anyway, don't you, Ibrahim, want your core beliefs and values to triumph?
Even if I do, they consist of less of a crass tribalist hate-fest than Spengler's.




Ibrahim wrote:
Huxley wrote:Who cares if Spengler seems to gloat over this
You were the one telling me that isn't what he's doing. Make up your mind.
Let me clarify. I do not think Spengler gloats over the extinction of cultures,
We I've seen him do this very thing on his forum in the past, so I disagree with you. And no I'm not going to dig up the quotes either, so take it or leave it.

so let's assume for the sake of argument that he is gloating. What of it, then? Spengler is one of the few commentators in the English-speaking world even bringing up the subject. You ought to give him credit for that, at least.
Well that's just the thing isn't it. He's FAR from the only one bringing it up. You ought to see what various white supremacists have to say about the matter. Their opinions on, for example, Native Americans are rather similar, and their attitude towards East and West Asia as well. They do divide rather sharply over the matter of Jews of course.

In fact this very genre of triumphalist writing is having a bit of a renaissance lately, with Niall Ferguson's new book, and of course Huntington writing the seminal (and more or less objective) work on the subject. These views are clawing their way back into respectability post-9/11, one pseudo-intellectual sucker at a time. Enoch Powell was just a little ahead of his time.


Ibrahim wrote:So the concept of putting a specific piece of writing in the context of a larger body of work is foreign to you?
Yeah, I get that, it's just that the "context," as you perceive it, is completely irrelevant to the article at hand.


No, it isn't. It's precisely what allows one to peel back the layers and understand what Spengler is really talking about. Base propaganda dressed up in pseudo-intellectual clothing, that's what Goldman has always produced, in his early career as a LaRouchite, in the Spengler golden age when people scared shitless of al Qaeda wanted their paranoia justified and his anonymity allowed people to think he might be somebody qualified/important, and now in his washed up phase, trying to cling to his economist credentials.



I'm still interested to hear why you think Spengler is wrong about Spain - i.e. why Spain is not on the brink of collapse, or if it is, then what the actual causes of its economic misfortunes are, as opposed to the phoney ones that Spengler posits.
Define collapse.



Ibrahim wrote:It's obviously racist, being indistinguishable from racial discrimination for a number of reasons I've explained previously. How is the behavior of a man who hates blacks towards blacks any different from the behavior of a man who hates Muslims towards Muslims? It's exactly the same thing, and symptomatic of the same moral and intellectual deficiencies.
I thought Islam was a religion, not a race? I thought the Muslim world comprised a vast variety of different races? How, then, is restricting Muslim immigration "obviously racist"?
They treat Muslims like a race, and hate them/discriminate against them. Furthermore, there is no means of actually determining who is or is not Muslim (they all liars anyway, says Spengler et al), so the proposed racist system they wish to implement would be based on who "looks Muslim" or nations of origin in the case of immigration. So even excluding my observation (never challenged) that discrimination against Muslims is indistinguishable from, for example, the racism of apartheid South Africa, the practical implementation would still necessarily involve race in the form of profiling and prejudice.

What irks me most about modern racists is their refusal to accept that they are racist, all the while advocating policies that would make George Wallace blush.


Ibrahim wrote:Are you being serious? Do you have any clue what labor costs in Germany are, or what each citizen is entitled to from the German government? I can't claim to be up to speed on their real estate market, but presumably it will only and always grow.
This is a good example of why it's important to read the article that one is attacking. See, as Spengler points out in paragraph eight, unit labor costs have remained virtually unchanged in Germany since 2000, while they have risen by 40% in Spain. The contrast is between a country where labor costs are skyrocketing and another country where they have remained flat, not between a country where labor costs are high and another country where they are low.
I said German labor costs are high, not that they suddenly became high in the last ten years. I hope you didn't bank too much on this false "gotcha" moment.

As for real estate, the construction sector in Spain is as big as the manufacturing sector, while Germany's construction sector is one-fifth the size of manufacturing.
Which alters the effects of a real estate bubble, not the fact of one happening or not. I'm sure Spain would love to have a larger manufacturing sector though. Who wouldn't? Doesn't seem either insightful or helpful. Banal and pointless, rather.

Ibrahim wrote:
Huxley wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:This one is quite funny. Apparently ever nation on Earth needs to dominate a key industry.
If you are a major nation that wants to be economically relevant in the world, then yeah.
That's the position I'm laughing at.
Why? Do you have a counterexample?

A counterexample of what? The concept is flawed on a deeper level.
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Azrael
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Re: Goldman Splengler Likes Portugal......

Post by Azrael »

monster_gardener wrote:Then why does Goldman Spengler ;) like Portugal as opposed to Spain.......
His wife is Spanish? :wink:

In her fourth memoir, which was written from October-December 1941, Sister Lucy copied the first two parts of the Secret from the text of her third memoir, but added a sentence that is not found there. Sister Lucy gave us the first sentence of the Third Secret when she inserted into her fourth memoir the phrase "In Portugal, the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved etc." This sentence had not appeared in her previous memoir. Sister Lucy purposely inserted it into her fourth memoir to indicate to us what the final part of the Secret is about.
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Splengler Likes hard worker & taxpayers. So does Aldomovar

Post by monster_gardener »

Azrael wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:Then why does Goldman Spengler ;) like Portugal as opposed to Spain.......
His wife is Spanish? :wink:

In her fourth memoir, which was written from October-December 1941, Sister Lucy copied the first two parts of the Secret from the text of her third memoir, but added a sentence that is not found there. Sister Lucy gave us the first sentence of the Third Secret when she inserted into her fourth memoir the phrase "In Portugal, the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved etc." This sentence had not appeared in her previous memoir. Sister Lucy purposely inserted it into her fourth memoir to indicate to us what the final part of the Secret is about.
Thank you VERY Much for your reply, friend Azrael.

You may be right about about either reason though I hope not the former ;) ......

Spengler does seem like traditional Catholic culture perhaps because of the Austro-Hungarian Empire's tolerance of Jews and of course Faust.....

But it may be simpler....... IIRC in the essay, Spengler said that the Portuguese were different because they work hard and pay their taxes......

Remember Pedro Aldomovar criticizing the Spanish on the work hard account in one of his films and contrasting them with the Germans....

Not sure which film it was....... Don't think it was "Women on the Verge of a Nervous Breakdown" ..........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_on_t ... _Breakdown
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Re: Spengler discovers Spain

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Azrael
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Re: Splengler Likes hard worker & taxpayers. So does Aldomov

Post by Azrael »

monster_gardener wrote:
Azrael wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:Then why does Goldman Spengler ;) like Portugal as opposed to Spain.......
His wife is Spanish? :wink:

In her fourth memoir, which was written from October-December 1941, Sister Lucy copied the first two parts of the Secret from the text of her third memoir, but added a sentence that is not found there. Sister Lucy gave us the first sentence of the Third Secret when she inserted into her fourth memoir the phrase "In Portugal, the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved etc." This sentence had not appeared in her previous memoir. Sister Lucy purposely inserted it into her fourth memoir to indicate to us what the final part of the Secret is about.
Thank you VERY Much for your reply, friend Azrael.
You're very welcome, my friend.
You may be right about about either reason though I hope not the former ;) ......
:lol:
Spengler does seem like traditional Catholic culture perhaps because of the Austro-Hungarian Empire's tolerance of Jews and of course Faust.....
Good theory. He certainly does seem to be a fan of the Austro-Hungarian Empire [me, not so much . . . related note: the Hungarians got screwed out of Košice].
But it may be simpler....... IIRC in the essay, Spengler said that the Portuguese were different because they work hard and pay their taxes......
I agree. The economic situation in Portugal is pretty much entirely externally caused.
Remember Pedro Aldomovar criticizing the Spanish on the work hard account in one of his films and contrasting them with the Germans....

Not sure which film it was....... Don't think it was "Women on the Verge of a Nervous Breakdown" ..........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_on_t ... _Breakdown
Very funny.
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