Venezuela

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monster_gardener
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Chavez Sucked. Ibrahim and Monster Gardener in Agreement....

Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:Chavez sucked, but Endo is right about decaying civil rights and institutions having grim implications.

In terms of Latin American lefties I prefer Morales.
Thank You VERY Much for your post, Ibrahim.
Chavez sucked,
Seconded.
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Re: Venezuela

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Hugo Chavez Net Worth: $1 billion
Hugo Chavez net worth: Hugo Chavez was a Venezuelan politician who had a net worth of $1 billion at the time of his death on March 5th 2013. A 2010 report from Criminal Justice International Associates (CJIA), a global risk assessment and threat mitigation firm estimated that the Chavez family assets totaled between $1 and $2 billion USD. The vast majority of these assets are oil related and were controlled by Hugo himself prior to his death. The head of the CJIA, Jerry Brewer, asserted that since Hugo's rise to power in 1999, the extended family has amassed its fortune through both legal and illegal methods. Brewer further estimates that the Chavez family and hundreds of other criminal organization have "subtracted $100 billion out of the nearly $1 trillion in oil income made by PDVSA (Venezuela's state controlled oil company), since 1999."
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Hoosiernorm »

8y-6svFOnjA
Been busy doing stuff
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Azrael
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Azrael »

Does CJIA provide any solid evidence that Chavez is worth $1 Billion, or are they just trolling for business?
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Typhoon »

Azrael wrote:Does CJIA provide any solid evidence that Chavez is worth $1 Billion, or are they just trolling for business?
I haven't been able to locate an independent source.

So it's possible CJIA|Brewer are pulling that number out of their ass.

If it's a troll, it's a very effective one due to confirmation bias.
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Azrael
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Azrael »

Typhoon wrote:
Azrael wrote:Does CJIA provide any solid evidence that Chavez is worth $1 Billion, or are they just trolling for business?
I haven't been able to locate an independent source.

So it's possible CJIA|Brewer are pulling that number out of their ass.

If it's a troll, it's a very effective one due to confirmation bias.
That's what I was thinking -- confirmation bias. This is great PR for them.
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Doc »

Endovelico wrote:
Doc wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Doc wrote:
Enki wrote:Yeah, Hugo Chavez is dead. Damn. End of an era.
Personally I look at it like the end of a fascist reign of terror.
It only shows you never lived through a fascist reign of terror. It usually starts with something like the Patriot Act, so better get ready...
Sure

Image

Image
If uniforms and funny salutes are all that matter to you, here we have another two...

Image

Image
Not in the same league Endo. But nice try
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Cristina Fernandez  Jose Mujica Evo Morales.jpg
Cristina Fernandez Jose Mujica Evo Morales.jpg (68.9 KiB) Viewed 9646 times
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote:Not in the same league Endo. But nice try
Chavez is on par with Hitler, but Churchill isn't in the same league? How are you ranking this?
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.


UN Index : Venezuelans’ quality of life improved at the third-fastest pace worldwide and income inequality narrowed during the presidency of Hugo Chavez

.

Venezuela moved up seven spots to 73 out of 187 countries in the United Nation’s index of human development from 2006 to 2011, a period that covers the latter half of Chavez’s rule, which ended with his death March 5. That progress trails only Cuba and Hong Kong in the index, which is based on life expectancy, health and education levels.

[..]

The improvements financed by his government’s oil profits will aid Vice President Nicolas Maduro’s bid to succeed him. Yet rising crime and inflation, crumbling infrastructure, oil output that dropped 13 percent since 1999 and food and power shortages may derail economic growth and undermine support for Chavez’s policies in the longer term, said David Smilde, a sociologist at the University of Georgia in Athens who lives in Venezuela.

“He gave a third of the population a sense that they mattered, the material benefits they got are part of his legacy,” said Julia Sweig, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, said by phone from outside San Francisco. “But he destroyed the village in order to rebuild it, taking property, spending oil money without reinvesting, mismanaging the resources.”
Falling Poverty

Venezuela cut its poverty rate to 29.5 percent in 2011 from 48.6 percent in 2002, according to the United Nations Economic Commission for Latin America, known as CEPAL. Venezuelans gave a life satisfaction rating of 7.5 on a scale from 1-10, above the global average of 5.5, according to a 2012 index of global prosperity compiled by Legatum Institute, a London-based research organization.

While nationalizing oil fields run by Irving, Texas-based Exxon Mobil Corp. (XOM) and Houston-based ConocoPhillips (COP), Chavez harnessed an oil windfall to increase spending and establish social programs including subsidized food markets and primary care health clinics in poor neighborhoods. Prices for Venezuelan crude climbed to as high as $126.46 in July 2008 from $8.65 per barrel when Chavez took office in 1999.

Isabel Rojas, a 72-year-old retired seamstress, was one beneficiary of Chavez’s policies. Rojas said she was given free housing in the Valles del Tuy neighborhood southwest of Caracas after the apartment she lived in was deemed in risk of collapse. After retiring in 1986, she said she began receiving a 2000 bolivar ($318) per month pension for the first time in 1999 after Chavez took power.
‘Valued the Poor’

Rojas said in an interview that she was impressed as much by Chavez’s words as his deeds.

“He valued the poor just as much as the rich,” she said. “Everyone had the same value.”

etc etc

.

Come on, DOC, come on :)

seems you have your facts upside down :lol: :lol:


.
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Taboo »

Apparently, a populist who actually handed out the handouts. I'm of two minds on this.

1) Taking money desperately needed for infrastructure and piling it into consumption is not usually good economic policy. Venezuelan oil production is at about 40% of what it could be because of that.

2) Inequality in Latin America is high, and little of it "trickles down" - because the rich mostly consume imported goods and services, insulating the poor from the rich in terms of downstream flow of revenue. Redistribution programs like "Bolsa Família" can make a huge difference for the bottom 40%, opening education (and even basic nutrition) frontiers that would otherwise be closed.

So Venezuela could be a lot richer but for Chavez, but I doubt that the plutocrats would be much concerned with lifting the "scum" at the bottom of society and granting them even a chance at social mobility.

Interesting to discuss how the US and Europe fare in this regards. Social mobility in the US has fallen tremendously in recent decades.
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.


Russia's Gennady Zyuganov :

“ How did it happen that six leaders of Latin American countries which had criticized US policies and tried to create an influential alliance in order to be independent and sovereign states, fell ill simultaneously with the same disease ? ”


CIA could not kill Cristina (Fernández de Kirchner) but succeeded killin Hugo

Zyuganov said: “these countries are trying hard to create an independent and influential block.” He Added: “this is not a coincidence, and it should be addressed, and international
investigation regarding this issue is necessary.”
Late President Chavez had said: “it is very strange that I and the leaders of Argentina, Brazil and Paraguay are all struggling with cancer.” He added: “I am not accusing the US, because I do not have any evidence.”

.
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Typhoon »

Taboo wrote:Apparently, a populist who actually handed out the handouts. I'm of two minds on this.

1) Taking money desperately needed for infrastructure and piling it into consumption is not usually good economic policy. Venezuelan oil production is at about 40% of what it could be because of that.
Agreed.
Taboo wrote:2) Inequality in Latin America is high, and little of it "trickles down" - because the rich mostly consume imported goods and services, insulating the poor from the rich in terms of downstream flow of revenue. Redistribution programs like "Bolsa Família" can make a huge difference for the bottom 40%, opening education (and even basic nutrition) frontiers that would otherwise be closed.
Also agreed.

qMxUaLtvDYU
Taboo wrote:So Venezuela could be a lot richer but for Chavez, but I doubt that the plutocrats would be much concerned with lifting the "scum" at the bottom of society and granting them even a chance at social mobility.

. . .
Chavezism is not a solution. Normal governance is. However, you're right in noting that the US is heading toward S Amerification.
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Re: Venezuela

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May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Endovelico »

Westerners - and apparently also some Japanese - look at South American countries and only see their middle and upper classes. The poor are invisible, as relevant as flies or ants. So, anything which improves life for the poor is wasteful, as that money should better be used to "produce" things for the already rich. Chavez was a failure because he spent money on the poor instead of the rich. By comparison, American rulers are good because they allow 1% of the people to own 40% of all wealth... This is one of the reasons why I feel that inevitably, sooner or later heads will fall. The heads of the rich... Once the hunting season starts, it will not be a pretty thing to see.
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Dead Tyrants under Glass - An Old Socialist Tradition.......

Post by monster_gardener »

Typhoon wrote:Chavez under glass
Thank You VERY Much for your post, Typhoon.

Social Tyrants and Wannabes..........

An old Socialist Family Tradition.........

Lenin....

Mao......
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Socialists Worse........... God's Pantry better.......

Post by monster_gardener »

Endovelico wrote:Westerners - and apparently also some Japanese - look at South American countries and only see their middle and upper classes. The poor are invisible, as relevant as flies or ants. So, anything which improves life for the poor is wasteful, as that money should better be used to "produce" things for the already rich. Chavez was a failure because he spent money on the poor instead of the rich. By comparison, American rulers are good because they allow 1% of the people to own 40% of all wealth... This is one of the reasons why I feel that inevitably, sooner or later heads will fall. The heads of the rich... Once the hunting season starts, it will not be a pretty thing to see.
Thank you Very Much for your post, Endo.
Westerners - and apparently also some Japanese - look at South American countries and only see their middle and upper classes.
Not at all........ Some of Uz are very much Down in the Lower Middle Class Black Gang.......... Have friends & relatives including Latinos that are a bit higher...... And some including Latinos that are a bit lower. Get jobs from those who a bit higher....... Sometimes have to help those who a bit lower.......
The poor are invisible, as relevant as flies or ants.
Not at all...... See them in the park and at intersections holding signs that say "Will work for food" "Vet Down on Luck, please help"
So, anything which improves life for the poor is wasteful, as that money should better
Not at all......... But it can be dangerous to help......... Dangerous to both giver and the gifted.......... Money can be good or very bad..... Can be just going to buy a fix of drugs or a bottle of booze........ Local Charity was on the radio recently advising to buy Subway sandwich shop gift cards so the money will go for food..... or to give Food, Money & Plastic Shopping bags* to God's Pantry

But even direct aid can be difficult and dangerous.... Recalling the new boots that New York City Cop gave to the allegedly homeless man not long ago..... Next day he was barefoot in the cold again....... Said he was afraid he would be assaulted and robbed for the new boots........ And he did have an apartment..... Just spent his time barefoot on the streets.. :? :roll:
as that money should better be used to "produce" things for the already rich.
Those tend to be the ones who produce the jobs...... Hopefully here rather than in China or Bangla Desh..... :roll:
Chavez was a failure because he spent money on the poor instead of the rich.
Nope..... Plenty of other reasons.........

He had little respect for the rule of law other than his own beginning with his coup attempt......

He was a friend and wannabe clone of that long winded Killer Klown from Kommunist Space, Fidel Castro....

Tried to bribe the poor with Cuban Slave Labor Doctors..........

Praise G_d, Chavez died before he was able to complete the process of turning Venezuela into Cuba with a poorly run Oil industry....

He ran the the Venezuelan Economy into the ground with inflation and shortages.........

More.........
By comparison, American rulers are good because they allow 1% of the people to own 40% of all wealth...
Nope........ Many of them are no prizes either......

I despise wannabe Socialist tyrants like Chavez but I do not trust the Killer FIRE Economy Klowns from Financial Space on Wall Street and in WashingTOON both DemocRAT and ReThuglican.........
This is one of the reasons why I feel that inevitably, sooner or later heads will fall.
That has been the pattern when Social Ass Socialist Tyrants take power in the past.
The heads of the rich...
Not just or even primarily the rich....... The Rich may have the money and means to get out...

Not so much people Down in the Black Gang.....

Remembering the Holomodor ...... Victims were not really rich.... Just peasants with food......
On 7 August 1932 a law came into force that stipulated that all food was state property and that mere possession of food was evidence of a crime. Among the most enthusiastic enforcers of the law were urban members of youth organisations, educated under the Soviet system, who fanned out into the countryside in order to prevent the "theft" of state property. They constructed and staffed watchtowers (over 700 in the Odessa region alone) to ensure that no peasants took food home from the fields. The youth brigades lived off the land, eating what they confiscated from the peasants. They often humiliated the starving peasants by forcing them to box each other for sport, or forcing them to crawl and bark like dogs. Under the pretext of grain confiscation, the brigades routinely raped women living alone.[58]

Several thousand Ukrainian peasants managed to cross the river Dniester into Romania, and received asylum there. Many were killed during the crossing by Soviet border-guards.[59]

Death toll
See also: Soviet famine of 1932–1933 and Soviet Census (1937)

By the end of 1933, millions of people had starved to death or had otherwise died unnaturally in Ukraine and the other Soviet republics. The total number of population losses (famine death and birth deficit) across the entire Soviet Union is estimated as 6–7 million.[19] The Soviet Union long denied that the famine had taken place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor# ... _and_abuse


*To be used to distribute the food etc..
Last edited by monster_gardener on Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Venezuela

Post by planctom »

Endovelico wrote:Westerners - and apparently also some Japanese - look at South American countries and only see their middle and upper classes. The poor are invisible, as relevant as flies or ants. So, anything which improves life for the poor is wasteful, as that money should better be used to "produce" things for the already rich. Chavez was a failure because he spent money on the poor instead of the rich. By comparison, American rulers are good because they allow 1% of the people to own 40% of all wealth... This is one of the reasons why I feel that inevitably, sooner or later heads will fall. The heads of the rich... Once the hunting season starts, it will not be a pretty thing to see.

I'm not so optimist,oil represents 90% of government income, and oil production has fallen 19% since Chavez was elected for the first time.
Moreover, inflation is high, 22,5% last year, US dollar rates are going up in the black market and there is a lack of basic products subsided by the government.
And we're not even talking about the skyrocketing homicide rate, Caracas is one of the most dangerous capitals of the world..
I'm not an economist but I think it takes decades to improve the economy and the social condition of a country like Venezuela, so I think it's too early now.
Remember what happened to Argentina after the default? The country initily showed a strong growth but now Argentina faces a serious economic and social crises, the inflation is high ... No wonder the Kirchners loved Chavez, he was the only one investing money in Argentina.
We've been through this before in Brazil, a high inflation is a sign of a very sick economy.

Read it, Endo: http://www.estadao.com.br/noticias/inte ... =manchetes
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Taboo »

Endovelico wrote:Westerners - and apparently also some Japanese - look at South American countries and only see their middle and upper classes. The poor are invisible, as relevant as flies or ants. So, anything which improves life for the poor is wasteful, as that money should better be used to "produce" things for the already rich. Chavez was a failure because he spent money on the poor instead of the rich. By comparison, American rulers are good because they allow 1% of the people to own 40% of all wealth... This is one of the reasons why I feel that inevitably, sooner or later heads will fall. The heads of the rich... Once the hunting season starts, it will not be a pretty thing to see.
So let me see, an entrenched authoritarian, with a populist clientelist agenda, running Venezuela's main cash cow into the ground (oil production at 40% of capacity due to underinvestment), pushing inflation into the 30% range, and creating a state so lawless that Caracas is the most dangerous capital in the world --- all of these are the markings of a great man.

Creating an entrenched corrupt elite is a-ok, as long as it is a new one, i see.
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Ibrahim »

I agree that Chavez has been a failure, but I'd like to see a more detailed connection between his policies and the decline in oil production.
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Endovelico »

Ibrahim wrote:I agree that Chavez has been a failure, but I'd like to see a more detailed connection between his policies and the decline in oil production.
The only major failure I see in Chavez policies was his inability to curb crime in Caracas. All the other "failures" - inflation, shortage of some goods - were the result of a substantial increase in purchasing power by the poorer Venezuelans. In time local production will adjust to the higher demand for goods and services, and both inflation and shortages will decrease. One thing I'm sure of: the majority of Venezuelans prefer to live with these problems than continuing living without education, health services and affordable essential goods, in a country which only catered for the needs of the wealthy.
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Endovelico »

planctom wrote:
Endovelico wrote:Westerners - and apparently also some Japanese - look at South American countries and only see their middle and upper classes. The poor are invisible, as relevant as flies or ants. So, anything which improves life for the poor is wasteful, as that money should better be used to "produce" things for the already rich. Chavez was a failure because he spent money on the poor instead of the rich. By comparison, American rulers are good because they allow 1% of the people to own 40% of all wealth... This is one of the reasons why I feel that inevitably, sooner or later heads will fall. The heads of the rich... Once the hunting season starts, it will not be a pretty thing to see.

I'm not so optimist,oil represents 90% of government income, and oil production has fallen 19% since Chavez was elected for the first time.
Moreover, inflation is high, 22,5% last year, US dollar rates are going up in the black market and there is a lack of basic products subsided by the government.
And we're not even talking about the skyrocketing homicide rate, Caracas is one of the most dangerous capitals of the world..
I'm not an economist but I think it takes decades to improve the economy and the social condition of a country like Venezuela, so I think it's too early now.
Remember what happened to Argentina after the default? The country initily showed a strong growth but now Argentina faces a serious economic and social crises, the inflation is high ... No wonder the Kirchners loved Chavez, he was the only one investing money in Argentina.
We've been through this before in Brazil, a high inflation is a sign of a very sick economy.

Read it, Endo: http://www.estadao.com.br/noticias/inte ... =manchetes
A couple of charts relating to Venezuela which you may find interesting:

GDP - real growth rate, %
Image

Industrial Production Growth Rate, %
Image

Unemployment rate, %
Image

Public Debt, % of GDP
Image

Source: http://www.ereport.ru/en/

Image
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Typhoon »

Taboo wrote:
Endovelico wrote:Westerners - and apparently also some Japanese - look at South American countries and only see their middle and upper classes. The poor are invisible, as relevant as flies or ants. So, anything which improves life for the poor is wasteful, as that money should better be used to "produce" things for the already rich. Chavez was a failure because he spent money on the poor instead of the rich. By comparison, American rulers are good because they allow 1% of the people to own 40% of all wealth... This is one of the reasons why I feel that inevitably, sooner or later heads will fall. The heads of the rich... Once the hunting season starts, it will not be a pretty thing to see.
So let me see, an entrenched authoritarian, with a populist clientelist agenda, running Venezuela's main cash cow into the ground (oil production at 40% of capacity due to underinvestment), pushing inflation into the 30% range, and creating a state so lawless that Caracas is the most dangerous capital in the world --- all of these are the markings of a great man.
Simply being anti-something, be it anti-communist, anti-Israeli, anti-Islam, or anti-American, is a necessary and apparently sufficient condition for approval for many.
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Endovelico »

Typhoon wrote:Simply being anti-something, be it anti-communist, anti-Israeli, anti-Islam, or anti-American, is a necessary and apparently sufficient condition for approval for many.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend...
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Re: Venezuela

Post by YMix »

Endovelico wrote:The enemy of my enemy is my friend...
The enemy of my enemy is the enemy of my enemy. No more, no less.

Maybe an ally, under certain circumstances.
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