Venezuela

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monster_gardener
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The enemy of my enemy is enemy of my enemy-No more, no less.

Post by monster_gardener »

YMix wrote:
Endovelico wrote:The enemy of my enemy is my friend...
The enemy of my enemy is the enemy of my enemy. No more, no less.

Maybe an ally, under certain circumstances.
Seconded...........

Very Wise saying........
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Peter Hitchens on Chavez

Post by Huxley »

'The Methods of Stalin - The Presentational Skills of Richard and Judy', my report on Hugo Chavez's Venezuela from 2008.

The death of Hugo Chavez prompts me to reproduce this article, my report from Caracas , which was first published in the Mail on Sunday in April 2008.

OUT OF the grave we thought we’d shovelled it into all those years ago, revolutionary Marxism comes climbing once again. Most of us were pleased to see it go, but not all of us.

No wonder the world’s incurably fashionable Leftists, who hate their own countries, love Venezuela’s Hugo Chavez. They have been homeless since the USSR fizzled away in a cloud of rust, and even more bereft since a trembling Fidel Castro laid down his combat fatigues and went off into the twilight in his pyjamas.

Comrade Chavez has given them back a fatherland, and provided them with a hero – a strangely lovable, smiling one, with a sense of humour and a good line in teasing mockery of the United States. He also has some of the biggest oil reserves in the world.

Castro, of course, never had any oil. But Venezuela is overflowing with it, which changes everything. In this increasingly sinister country, oil money sustains a more or less unhinged regime that mixes the methods of Stalin and the presentational skills of Richard and Judy to impose socialism on the Caribbean’s southern shores. ...

-- Peter Hitchens | Mail on Sunday | 09 March 2013
Article
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Torchwood
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Torchwood »

Taboo wrote: Inequality in Latin America is high, and little of it "trickles down" - because the rich mostly consume imported goods and services, insulating the poor from the rich in terms of downstream flow of revenue.
... I doubt that the plutocrats would be much concerned with lifting the "scum" at the bottom of society and granting them even a chance at social mobility.
That, unfortunately, is the history of most of Latin America, from the Spanish and Portuguese conquests onwards, an "extractive" not "inclusive" society. The reaction takes the form of populism which sees trade as evil (for locally good reasons) and at best builds up inefficient local industry behind tariff walls. What the continent needs is steady boring social democracy. Brazil may slowly be building one, and Colombia and Mexico are getting better. The two jokes of the region are Venezuela and Argentina, the latter the world's first de-developed country (Greece never made it to developed).

Interesting to discuss how the US and Europe fare in this regards. Social mobility in the US has fallen tremendously in recent decades.
The elite in their globalised world, with immigrant servants when they need them...yes, the parallels are ominous.
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Typhoon »

YMix wrote:
Endovelico wrote:The enemy of my enemy is my friend...
The enemy of my enemy is the enemy of my enemy. No more, no less.

Maybe an ally, under certain circumstances.
Indeed.

Statesmanship:
Therefore I say that it is a narrow policy to suppose that this country or that is to be marked out as the eternal ally or the perpetual enemy of England.
We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow.

~ Henry Temple, 3rd Viscount Palmerston | Speech to the House of Commons (1 March 1848), Hansard’s Parliamentary Debates. 3rd series, vol. 97, col. 122.
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Endovelico »

Torchwood wrote:
Taboo wrote: Inequality in Latin America is high, and little of it "trickles down" - because the rich mostly consume imported goods and services, insulating the poor from the rich in terms of downstream flow of revenue.
... I doubt that the plutocrats would be much concerned with lifting the "scum" at the bottom of society and granting them even a chance at social mobility.
That, unfortunately, is the history of most of Latin America, from the Spanish and Portuguese conquests onwards, an "extractive" not "inclusive" society. The reaction takes the form of populism which sees trade as evil (for locally good reasons) and at best builds up inefficient local industry behind tariff walls. What the continent needs is steady boring social democracy. Brazil may slowly be building one, and Colombia and Mexico are getting better.
There is another possibility: the Brits and their heirs eliminated the natives or caged them in reservations; the Portuguese and the Spaniards, in spite of some savagery, decided to assimilate the natives which did slow things somewhat. Now, Brazil and some other countries have gone far enough in the assimilation bit so that they are starting to grow and to compete in the higher technology markets. Let's wait another hundred years and we will see who comes up on top.
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Typhoon »

Endovelico wrote:
Torchwood wrote:
Taboo wrote: Inequality in Latin America is high, and little of it "trickles down" - because the rich mostly consume imported goods and services, insulating the poor from the rich in terms of downstream flow of revenue.
... I doubt that the plutocrats would be much concerned with lifting the "scum" at the bottom of society and granting them even a chance at social mobility.
That, unfortunately, is the history of most of Latin America, from the Spanish and Portuguese conquests onwards, an "extractive" not "inclusive" society. The reaction takes the form of populism which sees trade as evil (for locally good reasons) and at best builds up inefficient local industry behind tariff walls. What the continent needs is steady boring social democracy. Brazil may slowly be building one, and Colombia and Mexico are getting better.
There is another possibility: the Brits and their heirs eliminated the natives or caged them in reservations; the Portuguese and the Spaniards, in spite of some savagery, decided to assimilate the natives which did slow things somewhat. Now, Brazil and some other countries have gone far enough in the assimilation bit so that they are starting to grow and to compete in the higher technology markets.
Except that there exist comparisons today.

Britain -> Canada, Australia, and New Zealand;

Portugal -> Brazil

One hopes that Brazil does well.
Endovelico wrote:Let's wait another hundred years and we will see who comes up on top.
I'll bet you 100 billion Japanese Yen that 100 years from now the ex-British colonies will have fared better.
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Re: Venezuela

Post by planctom »

Torchwood wrote:
Taboo wrote: Inequality in Latin America is high, and little of it "trickles down" - because the rich mostly consume imported goods and services, insulating the poor from the rich in terms of downstream flow of revenue.
... I doubt that the plutocrats would be much concerned with lifting the "scum" at the bottom of society and granting them even a chance at social mobility.
That, unfortunately, is the history of most of Latin America, from the Spanish and Portuguese conquests onwards, an "extractive" not "inclusive" society. The reaction takes the form of populism which sees trade as evil (for locally good reasons) and at best builds up inefficient local industry behind tariff walls. What the continent needs is steady boring social democracy. Brazil may slowly be building one, and Colombia and Mexico are getting better. The two jokes of the region are Venezuela and Argentina, the latter the world's first de-developed country
There are also 125.000 armed members of the national militia and an unknown number of armed members of ilegal groups like La Piedrita, who are willing to defend the revolution with brutal force.
Colombia right now is the second economy in S.America and C. Kirchner is basically becoming a Chavez...without oil.
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Endovelico »

Typhoon wrote:I'll bet you 100 billion Japanese Yen that 100 years from now the ex-British colonies will have fared better.
Neither of us will be here to claim victory, but I strongly feel you would lose... Don't forget that the disorganized Italy has a GDP equal to Britain's, for a similar population. And if you say that's due to the hard working northern Italians, I will answer that if the southern Italians are so unproductive, than northern Italians must be a lot more productive than Britons, in order to make up the difference... Of course Italians are not Portuguese or Spaniards, but one tends to put them together in the same inefficient bunch...
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Musings on Italy, Spain, Greece - Gold as Divine Excrement..

Post by monster_gardener »

Endovelico wrote:
Typhoon wrote:I'll bet you 100 billion Japanese Yen that 100 years from now the ex-British colonies will have fared better.
Neither of us will be here to claim victory, but I strongly feel you would lose... Don't forget that the disorganized Italy has a GDP equal to Britain's, for a similar population. And if you say that's due to the hard working northern Italians, I will answer that if the southern Italians are so unproductive, than northern Italians must be a lot more productive than Britons, in order to make up the difference... Of course Italians are not Portuguese or Spaniards, but one tends to put them together in the same inefficient bunch...
Thank You Very Much for your post, Endo.
Of course Italians are not Portuguese or Spaniards, but one tends to put them together in the same inefficient bunch...
Italians........

At one time Romans........... :shock: :o

Then the Renaissance Boyz .........Dante, Da Vinci, Michelangelo, Bruno, Galileo............ :)

Even Later, major scientific contributors......... Avogadro, Volta, Cannizarrio, Marconi......... :)

Now often the butt of PIIG jokes........... :roll:

Before that jokes that portrayed them as Deadly Gangsters but Cowardly Soldiers ruled by the Pope ;) ........ Something that John Paul II put an end to ;)

Some of the Gangster reputation rubbed off on the rest of Uz.......... If not Space Cowboyz......Gum Chewing Gangsters with sub-machine guns.......;) :roll:

Perhaps part of the problem is that Italy remained divided so long...........

But Germany had that problem too........


Portugal and Spain similar........ From Explorers and Conquistadors..........

Problems going back before the PIIG crisis too......

Remembering one theory that it was Montezuma's Revenge* ;) :lol: ............

That all the Aztec and Inca gold* and silver so transformed Spain that people lost interest in working with their hands...........

Wanted to be Nobles and/or colonial administrator bureaucrats.... Cushy jobs etc............

Carl Sagan says similar about the downfall of science among the Ancient Greeks......

That a slave economy made the Greeks contemptuous of the drudge work science often involves.........

*Ironically IIRC the Inca considered gold to be the excrement of the gods ;) :lol:
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Torchwood »

Endovelico wrote:
Torchwood wrote:
Taboo wrote: Inequality in Latin America is high, and little of it "trickles down" - because the rich mostly consume imported goods and services, insulating the poor from the rich in terms of downstream flow of revenue.
... I doubt that the plutocrats would be much concerned with lifting the "scum" at the bottom of society and granting them even a chance at social mobility.
That, unfortunately, is the history of most of Latin America, from the Spanish and Portuguese conquests onwards, an "extractive" not "inclusive" society. The reaction takes the form of populism which sees trade as evil (for locally good reasons) and at best builds up inefficient local industry behind tariff walls. What the continent needs is steady boring social democracy. Brazil may slowly be building one, and Colombia and Mexico are getting better.
There is another possibility: the Brits and their heirs eliminated the natives or caged them in reservations; the Portuguese and the Spaniards, in spite of some savagery, decided to assimilate the natives which did slow things somewhat. Now, Brazil and some other countries have gone far enough in the assimilation bit so that they are starting to grow and to compete in the higher technology markets. Let's wait another hundred years and we will see who comes up on top.
In Mexico and Peru acquired civilised densely populated regions; even after western brutality (encomienda was effectively slavery) and diseases killed 90% of them, they were still around. Mexico is largely a mestizo state and has indeed absorbed them - but not the case in Peru or Bolivia. Brazil, Venezuela , Argentina and were much more like the USA -a sparse native population to begin with, who were then hunted as mercilessly as in North America, see the history of the bandeirantes of Sao Paolo. Of course Northern Brazil is a backward ex-slave state, but the same is true of the southern USA.
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Torchwood »

Endovelico wrote:
Typhoon wrote:I'll bet you 100 billion Japanese Yen that 100 years from now the ex-British colonies will have fared better.
Neither of us will be here to claim victory, but I strongly feel you would lose... Don't forget that the disorganized Italy has a GDP equal to Britain's, for a similar population. And if you say that's due to the hard working northern Italians, I will answer that if the southern Italians are so unproductive, than northern Italians must be a lot more productive than Britons, in order to make up the difference... Of course Italians are not Portuguese or Spaniards, but one tends to put them together in the same inefficient bunch...
There is no such country as Italy. There is south Switzerland and north North Africa. Rome is in the latter. Unfortunately the political class come from N.N. Afr and are therefore dedicated to what is euphemistically called wealth transfer rather than wealth creation. Brazil has a similar problem, but as befits the other hemisphere it is reversed, the North (Africa) robs the South (Europe).

But then, Catalans and Basques are hardly in the same country as Andalusians either (in fact they don't want to be).
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Endovelico »

Torchwood wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Typhoon wrote:I'll bet you 100 billion Japanese Yen that 100 years from now the ex-British colonies will have fared better.
Neither of us will be here to claim victory, but I strongly feel you would lose... Don't forget that the disorganized Italy has a GDP equal to Britain's, for a similar population. And if you say that's due to the hard working northern Italians, I will answer that if the southern Italians are so unproductive, than northern Italians must be a lot more productive than Britons, in order to make up the difference... Of course Italians are not Portuguese or Spaniards, but one tends to put them together in the same inefficient bunch...
There is no such country as Italy. There is south Switzerland and north North Africa. Rome is in the latter. Unfortunately the political class come from N.N. Afr and are therefore dedicated to what is euphemistically called wealth transfer rather than wealth creation. Brazil has a similar problem, but as befits the other hemisphere it is reversed, the North (Africa) robs the South (Europe).

But then, Catalans and Basques are hardly in the same country as Andalusians either (in fact they don't want to be).
I don't want to be rude, but your anthropological views are almost nazi in nature. Superior and inferior peoples indeed... Intellectually there are no superior and inferior peoples. We are all capable of the same intellectual achievements. But there are more individualistic and more gregarious peoples. More tolerant and less tolerant peoples. More neurotic and less neurotic peoples. And, obviously, technologically more developed and less developed peoples. Two equally developed peoples will achieve very much the same things, but they may do it in different ways, their values may be different and their societies may also function differently. Trying to divide humanity on the basis of present economic achievements is completely ridiculous, as throughout history the most diverse peoples have been materially at the top of the pile. From Sumerian to Americans, going through Greeks, Romans, Chinese, Portuguese, Spanish, Dutch and Britons.

The question is finding out which peoples will succeed in having the more harmonious, less neurotic societies. And I tend to think that those people with a more diverse set of genes, keener on preserving individual rights, and living in regions with a more temperate climate, will be the winners. I very much doubt northern Europeans, or Russians, or Chinese, will be it. Americans might, if they are successful at mingling all the gene pools of their very diverse population subgroups, and learn to soften their sectarian frame of mind.
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Post by monster_gardener »

Endovelico wrote:
Torchwood wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Typhoon wrote:I'll bet you 100 billion Japanese Yen that 100 years from now the ex-British colonies will have fared better.
Neither of us will be here to claim victory, but I strongly feel you would lose... Don't forget that the disorganized Italy has a GDP equal to Britain's, for a similar population. And if you say that's due to the hard working northern Italians, I will answer that if the southern Italians are so unproductive, than northern Italians must be a lot more productive than Britons, in order to make up the difference... Of course Italians are not Portuguese or Spaniards, but one tends to put them together in the same inefficient bunch...
There is no such country as Italy. There is south Switzerland and north North Africa. Rome is in the latter. Unfortunately the political class come from N.N. Afr and are therefore dedicated to what is euphemistically called wealth transfer rather than wealth creation. Brazil has a similar problem, but as befits the other hemisphere it is reversed, the North (Africa) robs the South (Europe).

But then, Catalans and Basques are hardly in the same country as Andalusians either (in fact they don't want to be).
I don't want to be rude, but your anthropological views are almost nazi in nature. Superior and inferior peoples indeed... Intellectually there are no superior and inferior peoples. We are all capable of the same intellectual achievements. But there are more individualistic and more gregarious peoples. More tolerant and less tolerant peoples. More neurotic and less neurotic peoples. And, obviously, technologically more developed and less developed peoples. Two equally developed peoples will achieve very much the same things, but they may do it in different ways, their values may be different and their societies may also function differently. Trying to divide humanity on the basis of present economic achievements is completely ridiculous, as throughout history the most diverse peoples have been materially at the top of the pile. From Sumerian to Americans, going through Greeks, Romans, Chinese, Portuguese, Spanish, Dutch and Britons.

The question is finding out which peoples will succeed in having the more harmonious, less neurotic societies. And I tend to think that those people with a more diverse set of genes, keener on preserving individual rights, and living in regions with a more temperate climate, will be the winners. I very much doubt northern Europeans, or Russians, or Chinese, will be it. Americans might, if they are successful at mingling all the gene pools of their very diverse population subgroups, and learn to soften their sectarian frame of mind.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Endo.
I very much doubt northern Europeans, or Russians, or Chinese, will be it. Americans might,
Thank You Very Much for your confidence in Uz, Endo............

I hope we live up to it..........

Given my perspective that the Space Program should be Priority No. 1 for all tech nations, I would also place a side Bet on the Russian Bears as being winners.......

Not everyone agrees.........

But any viable space colony will beat none if the red balloon goes up bad enough.........

And right now the Bears seem to be doing a lot of the heavy lifting ;) on the Space front.........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hu ... ce_Station
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Torchwood »

Endovelico wrote:I don't want to be rude
You are invariably polite, sir, even when provoked
but your anthropological views are almost nazi in nature.

How so? There is nothing genetic about it, and clearly "top nations " do rise and fall
Superior and inferior peoples indeed... Intellectually there are no superior and inferior peoples. We are all capable of the same intellectual achievements. But there are more individualistic and more gregarious peoples. More tolerant and less tolerant peoples. More neurotic and less neurotic peoples. And, obviously, technologically more developed and less developed peoples. Two equally developed peoples will achieve very much the same things, but they may do it in different ways, their values may be different and their societies may also function differently. Trying to divide humanity on the basis of present economic achievements is completely ridiculous, as throughout history the most diverse peoples have been materially at the top of the pile. From Sumerian to Americans, going through Greeks, Romans, Chinese, Portuguese, Spanish, Dutch and Britons
but here we part company. Cultures are not equal, and mere money grubbing economics and superior non-material culture are not as far apart as you would wish to believe. There are exceptions (like 18C Germany) but money, power and culture generally go together: ancient Athens was a great mercantile empire, the Italian Renaissance was funded by trade (the arte della lana in Florence for example) - 16C Iberia, 17C Netherlands, 18 &19C Britain and France, 20C U.S.A all reached economic and cultural peaks at the same time. It's not just the money available to fund artists and philosophers, its the confidence that being a top nation brings. It doesn't last, of course, as the complacency and decadence that ensues is almost inevitable.
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Ibrahim »

Torchwood wrote:but here we part company. Cultures are not equal, and mere money grubbing economics and superior non-material culture are not as far apart as you would wish to believe. There are exceptions (like 18C Germany) but money, power and culture generally go together:
This claim has always been a complete joke, with places like Switzerland being a prime example (no offense to aficionados pf the cuckoo clock). You think money, power and culture go together? I'll put New Orleans next to Zug any day.


ancient Athens was a great mercantile empire
For about 30 years. Classical Athens is another prime example of a cultural capital being so despite endemic financial and political mismanagement. To the point that when they were finally conquered by the rich and powerful Romans the Romans were forced to appropriate Athenian culture for centuries.
the Italian Renaissance was funded by trade (the arte della lana in Florence for example)
Portuguese East Asian trade dwarfed that of Italian mercantile houses, with their yearly cargo tonnage surpassing that traded on the Rialto by a factor of ten. But the cultural action still happened in Italy, not Lisbon, and even as Italian warred with one another and entertained French and Swiss "guests" constantly.


- 16C Iberia, 17C Netherlands, 18 &19C Britain and France, 20C U.S.A all reached economic and cultural peaks at the same time.
I'll give you the Netherlands. I thought Spain peaked in the 1920's and 30's, but that's down to taste. British culture is far more interesting and innovative during the Elizabethan era than the jingoistic doggerel of their colonial epoch. France, well, France is France, just ask a Frenchman.

It's not just the money available to fund artists and philosophers, its the confidence that being a top nation brings.
I don't see how this benefits culture unless your preferred version of culture is bombastic, front-running bullsh*t.


It doesn't last, of course, as the complacency and decadence that ensues is almost inevitable.
Actually you also get examples of cultural peaks following the decline. Byzantine art and literature is much richer and more interesting after the 13th century, when they are all but a joke. Some of the best Japanese film and literature was produced in the immediate postwar period, and compares favorable to both the prior militaristic period, or their subsequent commercial heyday.


I have to echo Endo's sentiment that linking cultural excellence to national power and prestige, and the decline of power and prestige to complacency and rot, is a distinctly totalitarian/socialist trope. In fact that reminds me of yet another example: Russian literature in the closing days of the Tzarist era and the civil war. At least it reads better to me than the confident nationalism of the early Soviet era.



On the whole, I'm starting to think that national power and wealth are the death-knell of worthwhile art and culture.
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Endovelico »

Ibrahim has said most of what I would think worthwhile saying on this subject, so I will just make a few additional comments.

On the matter of money and artistic production I feel that good art happens in spite of the terrible taste of the rich who pay for much of it, not because of it. I have always thought that the best music Haydn composed were his quartets, which were composed for his own pleasure, not for any Austrian noble house. Van Gogh's paintings had nothing to do with the wealth of France or the Netherlands.

In our days, bigger, richer countries generate practically no worthwhile art. Watching on tv modern French choreographies is torture. Where are worthwhile composers to be found in the US, UK or Germany? And painters? The 1% who control 40% of a nation's wealth may pay millions to buy paintings from long dead painters, but promote absolutely nothing new. I find more quality coming from countries like the Czech Republic or even Portugal, than from any of the bigger, richer countries. I saw the other day a modern, africanized version of Swan Lake by a black South African choreographer, which was amazing in its quality and humour.
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Endovelico »

For those who always look for hidden meanings to everything, Nicolas Maduro, probable successor of Hugo Chavez, is of Sephardic Jewish origin, on his father's side... Will Jews all over the world learn to love him, or will he be considered a foul traitor?...
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Culture, Taste and Nobel Prizes............

Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:
Torchwood wrote:but here we part company. Cultures are not equal, and mere money grubbing economics and superior non-material culture are not as far apart as you would wish to believe. There are exceptions (like 18C Germany) but money, power and culture generally go together:
This claim has always been a complete joke, with places like Switzerland being a prime example (no offense to aficionados pf the cuckoo clock). You think money, power and culture go together? I'll put New Orleans next to Zug any day.


ancient Athens was a great mercantile empire
For about 30 years. Classical Athens is another prime example of a cultural capital being so despite endemic financial and political mismanagement. To the point that when they were finally conquered by the rich and powerful Romans the Romans were forced to appropriate Athenian culture for centuries.
the Italian Renaissance was funded by trade (the arte della lana in Florence for example)
Portuguese East Asian trade dwarfed that of Italian mercantile houses, with their yearly cargo tonnage surpassing that traded on the Rialto by a factor of ten. But the cultural action still happened in Italy, not Lisbon, and even as Italian warred with one another and entertained French and Swiss "guests" constantly.


- 16C Iberia, 17C Netherlands, 18 &19C Britain and France, 20C U.S.A all reached economic and cultural peaks at the same time.
I'll give you the Netherlands. I thought Spain peaked in the 1920's and 30's, but that's down to taste. British culture is far more interesting and innovative during the Elizabethan era than the jingoistic doggerel of their colonial epoch. France, well, France is France, just ask a Frenchman.

It's not just the money available to fund artists and philosophers, its the confidence that being a top nation brings.
I don't see how this benefits culture unless your preferred version of culture is bombastic, front-running bullsh*t.


It doesn't last, of course, as the complacency and decadence that ensues is almost inevitable.
Actually you also get examples of cultural peaks following the decline. Byzantine art and literature is much richer and more interesting after the 13th century, when they are all but a joke. Some of the best Japanese film and literature was produced in the immediate postwar period, and compares favorable to both the prior militaristic period, or their subsequent commercial heyday.


I have to echo Endo's sentiment that linking cultural excellence to national power and prestige, and the decline of power and prestige to complacency and rot, is a distinctly totalitarian/socialist trope. In fact that reminds me of yet another example: Russian literature in the closing days of the Tzarist era and the civil war. At least it reads better to me than the confident nationalism of the early Soviet era.



On the whole, I'm starting to think that national power and wealth are the death-knell of worthwhile art and culture.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Ibrahim.
but that's down to taste.
Isn't that what much, most, maybe all culture boils down to......... Individual taste ;)

British culture is far more interesting and innovative during the Elizabethan era than the jingoistic doggerel of their colonial epoch.
Some like Shakespeare...........

Some like Sullivan.........

Gilbert N' Sullivan that is......... ;)

PCp9loSdR4c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCp9loSdR4c

TpJ_IAUs8nI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpJ_IAUs8nI

Isn't a lot of "culture" rather like the non hard-science Nobel Prizes..........

At best open to endless debate..............

At worst, Stupidity like giving Arrogant Lazy Lying Duty Station Deserting Drone Dropping Son of a Bitch Eating President Barack Obama the Nobel Peace Prize.........

Literally "Money for Nothing" ;) ........ and the world in Dire Straits ;) :roll:

lAD6Obi7Cag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAD6Obi7Cag

BTW I like also like both Dire Straits & Shakespeare ..........

Not all..........

But some........
Last edited by monster_gardener on Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Is Maduro a Double Agent by Paltrow lineal descent....

Post by monster_gardener »

Endovelico wrote:For those who always look for hidden meanings to everything, Nicolas Maduro, probable successor of Hugo Chavez, is of Sephardic Jewish origin, on his father's side... Will Jews all over the world learn to love him, or will he be considered a foul traitor?...
Thank You Very Much for your post, Endo.

Or if the Chavista Revolution fails will Maduro be accused of being an double agent by Socialists and Leftists worldwide...... ;) :shock: :o :twisted:
on his father's side...
Doesn't count...... ;)

At least not to Orthodox Jews.......... ;)

Orthodox Jews do not follow Paltrow lineal descent........ ;) :lol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwyneth_Paltrow#Early_life


Though it does to their enemies.......... :evil:
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Re: Culture, Taste and Nobel Prizes............

Post by Azrael »

monster_gardener wrote:Some like Shakespeare...........

Some like Sullivan.........

Gilbert N' Sullivan that is......... ;)
I like both, too.

I think a comparison that would better illustrate the merits of Ibrahim and Endo's side of the debate versus Torchwood's would be between Shakespeare and the "top nation confidence" of Rudyard Kipling. Interesting stuff.
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Azrael »

Endovelico wrote:For those who always look for hidden meanings to everything, Nicolas Maduro, probable successor of Hugo Chavez, is of Sephardic Jewish origin, on his father's side... Will Jews all over the world learn to love him, or will he be considered a foul traitor?...
I'm sure that Spengler would insist that Maduro is not a "real Jew", and he'd be the one to know.
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Endovelico »

Azrael wrote:
Endovelico wrote:For those who always look for hidden meanings to everything, Nicolas Maduro, probable successor of Hugo Chavez, is of Sephardic Jewish origin, on his father's side... Will Jews all over the world learn to love him, or will he be considered a foul traitor?...
I'm sure that Spengler would insist that Maduro is not a "real Jew", and he'd be the one to know.
Concerning Spengler his 'confession' should indeed have better been titled "Half-hearted Confessions of a Full-Blooded Coward"...
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Re: Venezuela

Post by Endovelico »

Statement of President Obama on the Death of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez

At this challenging time of President Hugo Chavez’s passing, the United States reaffirms its support for the Venezuelan people and its interest in developing a constructive relationship with the Venezuelan government. As Venezuela begins a new chapter in its history, the United States remains committed to policies that promote democratic principles, the rule of law, and respect for human rights.
Very elegant. Particularly that part in which Obama expresses his and the American people's condolences to the Venezuelan nation...
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Maduro barely wins amid charges of rigged vote

Post by Doc »

Venezuela vote: Chavez's heir Maduro scrapes by amid rigging allegation

Hugo Chavez's chosen heir Nicolas Maduro musters much lower-than-expected 50.66 percent of the vote as Henrique Capriles alleges vote rigging.

CARACAS, Venezuela — Acting President Nicolas Maduro managed to muster 50.66 percent of the vote over challenger Henrique Capriles' 49.07 percent, in a much tighter-than-expected presidential election Sunday.

"Today we can say that we had a fair electoral triumph," said Maduro, 50, after the results were announced.

About 78 percent of Venezuela's nearly 19 million eligible voters cast ballots Sunday, The New York Times reported.

After election authorities announced the result, Maduro's supporters celebrated outside Miraflores presidential palace, although the party drew nowhere near as large a crowd as past socialist victories.

Fireworks burst overhead as songs blared and booze flowed. Many revelers wore fake mustaches, playfully mimicking the mustachioed Maduro.

But while the "Chavistas" partied, opposition candidate Capriles cried foul. He said he refused to accept the results and called for a recount.

"Today's loser is you," Capriles told a news conference, referring to Maduro, according to Agence France-Presse. "We won't recognize a result until every vote has been counted."

The end of Venezuela's election day showed a country more divided than ever during the emotionally charged aftermath following Chavez's death from cancer.

Caracas pollster Luis Vicente Leon said he expects "negotiation or conflict" after a such a close race.

"The ability to govern is so fragile with this result," he said.

Earlier Sunday evening, as polls were closing, Capriles had decried an alleged plot to alter the result.

"We alert the country and the world of the intention to change the choice expressed by the people," Capriles, 40, tweeted late Sunday.

To the recount demand, according to the website of Spain's El Pais, Maduro replied, "I welcome any audit you want to do. The ones most interested in an audit are the dishonest ones."

The opposition group had set up several phone lines for voters to call in with information about voting conditions at their station.

Hand-picked by the beloved Chavez before his death last month, Maduro had commanded double-digit percentage points ahead of Capriles in most polls.

But that lead started slipping as Capriles went on the offensive, with ample ammunition of the country's dire reality.

Despite the government's largesse — using the world's biggest crude reserves to fund poverty-fighting programs at home and provide cheap oil to regional allies like Cuba — problems such as high inflation, produce shortages and soaring murder rates continue to cripple the South American country.

"I voted for Capriles, he’s the only option for change," Jose Alberto, a 32-year-old engineer, told GlobalPost after casting his vote in the upscale Caracas district of San Ignacio.

"I’ve never voted for Chavez," he added. "You just have to walk down the street to realize that this country doesn’t work."

Still, many Venezuelans would not give up on "Chavismo," their late leader's self-styled movement dubbed "21st century socialism," and they placed trust in Chavez's faithful deputy, Maduro, to move it forward.

Mario Izarra, 33, showed up at the Sierra Maestra voting station in 23 de Enero‬ slum at 8 p.m. the night before the vote, and finally voted Sunday morning at 6 a.m.

"We need to work hard to make sure everyone votes, but Maduro will win, I'm
sure," he said, standing opposite a giant mural of leftist revolutionary icon Ernesto "Che" Guevara.

"Capriles simply doesn't have the same popularity that Maduro has and Chavez had," he added.

Whatever the final verdict, there's no question that Capriles, governor of the country's second-largest state Miranda, made huge gains this time around. In October, he lost to Chavez by 11 percentage points, the closest any opponent had come to unseating "el Comandante" in his 14-year rule.

The stakes were high. Many commentators said Capriles was running not just acting President Maduro but the ghost of Chavez, who anointed Maduro his successor in December before he died.

Then Maduro exalted his deceased mentor to new heights of Godliness: He called Chavez "prophet of Christ," and himself his "apostle."
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news ... l-election
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Re: Venezuela-Maduro bans opposition rally

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-22176532
Venezuela President-elect Maduro bans opposition rally
Venezuela's President-elect Nicolas Maduro (16 April) Nicolas Maduro has blamed the opposition for violent clashes

Venezuela's President-elect Nicolas Maduro says he will not allow the opposition to hold a rally in Caracas to challenge his election.

He also blamed the opposition for violent clashes after he was proclaimed winner of Sunday's disputed poll.

The attorney general said the clashes left seven dead and dozens injured.

Opposition leader Henrique Capriles said the government was responsible for the violence as it sought to avoid a vote recount.

Mr Capriles had called for a march on the National Electoral Council in Caracas on Wednesday to demand a recount. He has also called for peaceful protests around the country.

He has said he will not accept the election results until all the votes are counted again, and he has called Mr Maduro "illegitimate."

On Tuesday, there were sporadic clashes between police and opposition members in several provincial cities, and protesters set up some roadblocks in Caracas.

Mr Maduro said the government would not be blackmailed, and he called on Venezuelans to remain peaceful.

"This is the responsibility of those who have called for violence, who have ignored the constitution and the institutions," he said in a televised speech to the nation.

"Their plan is a coup d'etat," he added, while calling his own supporters into the streets.

"If they want to overthrow me, come get me. With the people and the armed forces, I am here."
Police clash with protesters in Caracas, 15 April 2013 Dozens were injured in clashes between police and protesters on Monday

Mr Maduro and other senior officials labelled Mr Capriles and his supporters as "fascists".

In addition to the seven who died on Monday, Attorney General Luisa Ortega said more than 60 people were injured and 139 arrested during clashes at opposition protests.

She said some offices had been set on fire and public property destroyed.

State media reported that two of those killed were shot while celebrating Mr Maduro's victory in Caracas, one died in a government-run clinic in a central state, and two others were killed in an Andean border state.

Venezuela's election was held following the death of former President Hugo Chavez, who died of cancer last month after naming Mr Maduro as his preferred successor.

Mr Maduro was declared to have won by 50.8% to 49% - a difference of some 265,000 votes.

The opposition said it had recorded thousands of cases of violations, including the use of fake identification and the intimidation of polling station volunteers.

"We are not going to ignore the will of the people," said Mr Capriles. "We believe we won ... we want this problem resolved peacefully."
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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