India

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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: India

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

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JRRPxKfDprI




India, China, Russia .. with Iran




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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: India

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

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‘ India launches indigenous GPS ‘



next to come , IRANIAN GPS :D



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Ibrahim
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Re: India

Post by Ibrahim »

Hmm. Westerners might get a closer look at Hindu Nationalism in the near future.
India may elect as its next Prime Minister a far right Hindu nationalist who, as governor of Gujarat, directed his state's police force to look the other way during a mass slaughter of Muslims in 2002.

Narendra Modi is a self-made politician: the son of a street vendor who worked his way up through the grassroots of the right wing Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP). He came to prominence in his home state of Gujarat with an impressive economic record amassed during his tenure as a governor in the western Indian state, which allowed him to woo middle class voters who would otherwise have been turned off by his hard-line politics. Now that he has set his eyes on national office, Modi is hoping to once again sway voters by focusing on his free market and technology sector-friendly economic policies. But his complicity in the horrific Gujarat riots, which left thousands dead in a span of seventy-two hours, is one legacy that still haunts his candidacy and Indian politics.

On February 27th 2002, several Hindu pilgrims were killed in an accidental train fire in the Gujarati city of Godhra. Far-right Hindu Nationalist groups aligned with Modi’s BJP blamed the fire on Muslim “terrorists” and the Muslim community at large, who they perceived as antithetical to national Indian identity and the Hindu religion, and immediately called for strikes across the country. In response, organized Hindu mobs went on a wave of mass killing and rampage directed at the state’s minority Muslim and, in some cases, Christian communities. Children were burned alive. Women were raped and disemboweled. Many others were hacked to death with swords.

Police stood by passively during the attacks, ignoring pleas for help. In fact, according to a Human Rights Watch report, the police were directly involved in orchestrating the killings. The violence sent shock waves across India’s Muslim community and raised global concerns about the governing BJP Party’s radical anti-Muslim politics.

Modi, who was then one of the loudest voices blaming “Muslim terrorists” for the fire, claims that he did all he could to stop the killings. Subsequently, he was cleared of any wrongdoing by the Indian Supreme Court, though his Minister for Women and Child Development, Maya Kodnani, is currently serving a 28 year prison sentence after being convicted in 2012 of providing weapons for the murders of 97 Muslims during the riots. In subsequent investigations, two independent commissions have since found that the train fire was not the result of terrorism.

Modi’s actions during the killings drew global condemnation and both the British High Commission and the U.S. Commission on International Freedom of Religion Report found the state government of Gujarat – the government that Modi himself led – culpable in the massacres. The United States even went so far as to deny Modi a travel visa for his role in the 2002 massacre.

Nevertheless, Modi remains unrepentant. In fact, he ran an aggressive re-election campaign after the massacre, demonizing Muslim voters and appealing to radical Hindu nationalist sentiments.
http://aslanmedia.com/news-politics/wor ... w5lMd.dpuf
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Differing Opinions/Doubts about the source: Is 58, several?.

Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:Hmm. Westerners might get a closer look at Hindu Nationalism in the near future.
India may elect as its next Prime Minister a far right Hindu nationalist who, as governor of Gujarat, directed his state's police force to look the other way during a mass slaughter of Muslims in 2002.

Narendra Modi is a self-made politician: the son of a street vendor who worked his way up through the grassroots of the right wing Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP). He came to prominence in his home state of Gujarat with an impressive economic record amassed during his tenure as a governor in the western Indian state, which allowed him to woo middle class voters who would otherwise have been turned off by his hard-line politics. Now that he has set his eyes on national office, Modi is hoping to once again sway voters by focusing on his free market and technology sector-friendly economic policies. But his complicity in the horrific Gujarat riots, which left thousands dead in a span of seventy-two hours, is one legacy that still haunts his candidacy and Indian politics.

On February 27th 2002, several Hindu pilgrims were killed in an accidental train fire in the Gujarati city of Godhra. Far-right Hindu Nationalist groups aligned with Modi’s BJP blamed the fire on Muslim “terrorists” and the Muslim community at large, who they perceived as antithetical to national Indian identity and the Hindu religion, and immediately called for strikes across the country. In response, organized Hindu mobs went on a wave of mass killing and rampage directed at the state’s minority Muslim and, in some cases, Christian communities. Children were burned alive. Women were raped and disemboweled. Many others were hacked to death with swords.

Police stood by passively during the attacks, ignoring pleas for help. In fact, according to a Human Rights Watch report, the police were directly involved in orchestrating the killings. The violence sent shock waves across India’s Muslim community and raised global concerns about the governing BJP Party’s radical anti-Muslim politics.

Modi, who was then one of the loudest voices blaming “Muslim terrorists” for the fire, claims that he did all he could to stop the killings. Subsequently, he was cleared of any wrongdoing by the Indian Supreme Court, though his Minister for Women and Child Development, Maya Kodnani, is currently serving a 28 year prison sentence after being convicted in 2012 of providing weapons for the murders of 97 Muslims during the riots. In subsequent investigations, two independent commissions have since found that the train fire was not the result of terrorism.

Modi’s actions during the killings drew global condemnation and both the British High Commission and the U.S. Commission on International Freedom of Religion Report found the state government of Gujarat – the government that Modi himself led – culpable in the massacres. The United States even went so far as to deny Modi a travel visa for his role in the 2002 massacre.

Nevertheless, Modi remains unrepentant. In fact, he ran an aggressive re-election campaign after the massacre, demonizing Muslim voters and appealing to radical Hindu nationalist sentiments.
http://aslanmedia.com/news-politics/wor ... w5lMd.dpuf

Thank You for your post, Ibrahim.
On February 27th 2002, several Hindu pilgrims were killed in an accidental train fire in the Gujarati city of Godhra.


Hmm.

Not how I remember the incident was reported.........

And FWIW Wiki agrees....
The Godhra Train Burning was an incident that occurred on the morning of 27 February 2002, in which 58 people including 25 women and 15 children died in a fire inside the Sabarmati Express train near the Godhra railway station in the Indian state of Gujarat.[2] Many of the victims were Hindu pilgrims and activists who were returning from the holy city of Ayodhya.[3][4] The official commission set up to investigate the train burning spent 6 years thoroughly going over the details of the case, and concluded that the fire was arson committed by a mob of 1000-2000 people,[5][6] mainly Muslims.[7] A court convicted 31 Muslims for the incident and the conspiracy for the crime.[7][8][9][10]although the actual causes of the fire have yet to be proven conclusively.[11]

The event is widely perceived as the trigger for theviolence that followed, which resulted in widespread loss life, destruction of property and homelessness. Estimates of casualties range from the official figures of 790 Muslims and 254 Hindus[12] to upwards of 2000 individuals.[13]
Contents

1 Background
2 27 February 2002 incident
3 Nanavati-Mehta Commission
4 Trial and court verdict
4.1 Prevention of Terrorism Act and trial
4.2 Court verdict
4.3 Reactions to verdict
5 Inquires
5.1 Nanavati-Mehta commission
5.2 Banerjee investigation
6 Popular culture
7 See also
8 References

Background

Godhra is a province with a mixed population of Hindus and Muslims. The Partition of India sparked a series of riots between the communities.[14] In 1980, five Hindus, including two children, were killed in the Signal Falia neighbourhood near the Godhra Railway yard. In 1985, communal disturbances continued for more than five months between February and July 1985 and the region remained under curfew for about a year. In November 1990, four Hindu teachers at the Vorwad Saphia Madrasa School, including two women, were killed.[15]

27 February 2002 incident
Godhra Junction station where the incident took place

In February 2002, thousands of devotees of the Hindu God Ram (known as "Ramsevaks") had gone from Gujarat to Ayodhya at the behest of the Vishva Hindu Parishad to take part in a ceremony called the Purnahuti Maha Yagna. On 25 February 2002, 2000 – 2200 Ramsevaks boarded the Sabarmati Express which was bound for Ahmedabad.[16] On 27 February 2002, the train made its' scheduled stop at Godhra, about 4 hours late, at 7:43 am. As the train started leaving the platform, someone pulled the emergency chain and the train stopped near the signal point. The train was subsequently attacked by a mob of around 2000 people.[16] According to J Mahapatra, additional director general of Gujarat police, "miscreants had kept the petrol-soaked rags ready for use much before the train had arrived at the Godhra".[17]
Nanavati-Mehta Commission

The Nanavati-Mehta Commission, the official commission appointed to investigate the incident, concluded[18] that Maulvi Husain Haji Ibrahim Umarji, an influential cleric, a social worker [19] planned the attack on the Sabarmati Express. Umarji was arrested as the “mastermind” of the train burning, basing on a statement made by Jabir Binyamin Behra, a criminal in custody, later during trial he denied giving any such statements.[20] Later Maulana Umarji was acquitted of all the charges made by the Nanavati-Mehta commission against him in connection with the Godhra train burning incident and was released from prison for lack of evidence.[1][21] Bilal Haji and Faruk Bhana, Muslim leaders of Godhra had led the mob and prevented fire tenders from reaching the ‘A-Cabin’ where the train was stopped and attacked.[22] Another councillor Abdul Raheman Dhantiya alias Kankatta was also found to be involved in the stone pelting during the incident.[23] Committee found few Ghanchi Muslims who used to stay around Godhra railway station as the executors. Petrol was stored in seven or eight 20-litre cans and was kept in the Aman Guest House.[22]
Trial and court verdict
Prevention of Terrorism Act and trial

The Prevention of Terrorism Ordinance was invoked against all the accused[when?] which was later suspended due to pressure from the Central government. In May 2003, first charge sheet was filed against 54 accused, but they were not charged under Prevention of Terrorism Act (POTO became an Act as it was cleared by Parliament). In February 2003, POTA was re-invoked against all the accused after BJP was elected in the elections again.[24]

In November 2003, Supreme Court of India put a stay on the trial. In 2004, POTA was repealed after UPA came to power and it decided to review the invocation POTA against the accused. In May 2005, POTA review commission opined not to charge the accused under POTA. This was later unsuccessfully challenged by a kin of the victim before the Gujarat High Court and later on appeal before Supreme Court. In September 2008, Nanavati Commission submitted its report on the incident.[24] In 2009, after accepting the report of the Special Investigation Team (SIT) appointed by it, the court appointed a special fast-track court to try the case along with 5 other fast track courts established to try the post-incident riots. The bench hearing the case also said that public prosecutors should be appointed in consultation with the SIT chairman. It ordered that the SIT shall be nodal agency for deciding about witness protection and also asked it file supplementary charge sheets and that it may cancel the bail of the accused.[25] More than 100 people were arrested in relation to the incident. The court was set up inside the Sabarmati Central Jail, where almost all of the accused were confined. The hearing began in May 2009.[26] Additional Sessions Judge P R Patel was designated to hear the case. According to the chargesheet filed by the SIT, 59 people were killed in the S-6 coach of Sabarmati Express when an unidentified mob of around 900 to 1,000 people attacked it near Godhra railway station.[27] Initially 107 people were charged, of which five died during the pendency of the case. Eight others were juveniles, who were tried by a separate court. As many as 253 witnesses were examined during the trial and over items of 1500 documentary evidences were presented to the court.[28]

In May 2010, Supreme Court restrained the trial courts from pronouncing judgement in nine sensitive riot cases, including Godhra train incident. The trial was completed in September 2010; however, the verdict could not be delivered because of the Supreme Court stay.[28] The stay was lifted in January 2011 and the judge announced that he shall pronounce the judgement on 22 February 2011.[24]
Court verdict

On February 2011, the trial court convicted 31 people and acquitted 63 others, saying the incident was a “pre-planned conspiracy". The convictions were based on murder and conspiracy provisions of the Sections 302 and 120B of the Indian Penal Code respectively and under Sections 149, 307, 323, 324, 325, 326, 332, 395, 397, and 436 of the Code and some sections of the Railway Act and Police Act.[27] The death penalty was awarded to 11 convicts, particularly those it believed were present at a meeting, held the previous night, where the conspiracy was formed, and those who, the court said, had actually entered the coach and poured petrol before setting it afire. Twenty were sentenced to life imprisonment.[10][29]

Maulvi Saeed Umarji, who was believed by the SIT to be the prime accused, was acquitted[27] along with 62 other accused for lack of evidence.[30] The convicted filed appeals in the Gujarat High Court. The state government also challenged the trial court's decision to acquit 61 persons in the High Court and sought death sentences for 20 convicts awarded life imprisonment in the case.[31]
Reactions to verdict

BJP spokesperson Shahnawaz Hussain stated, "The theory propagated by the (central) government and some NGOs (Non-Governmental Organization) has been proved wrong...."[32] Law Minister Veerappa Moily (a Congress Party member) said it was premature to comment and that the courts will take their own course.[33][34] R K Raghavan, who was the head of the Special Investigating Team, said he was satisfied with the verdict. BJP spokesperson, Ravi Shankar Prasad said the verdict had exposed the nefarious designs of the UPA government which tried to cover up the entire episode.[33]
Inquires
Nanavati-Mehta commission

On 6 March 2002 the Gujarat government first set up a commission of inquiry headed by retired Gujarat High Court judge K G Shah to investigate the incident and submit a report in three months.[35] Following criticism from victims' organisations, activists and political parties over Shah's role as Government's pleader and demand for appointment of a Supreme Court judge to the commission, the government reconstituted the commission into a two member committee in public interest, appointing retired Supreme Court judge, G T Nanavati to lead the commission.[36][37] (This commission became known as the Nanavati commission.) Shah died during the course of the probe and the Gujarat High Court then appointed retired judge Akshay Kumar Mehta on 6 April 2008.[38] The commission, during its six-year probe, examined more than 40,000 applications and testimonies of more than 1,000 witnesses.[39]

In September 2008, the commission submitted its report and it seconded the conspiracy theory, originally propounded by the Gujarat police.[22] The commission based its decision on the acquisition of 140 litres of petrol hours before the arrival of the train and the storage of the said petrol at the alleged key conspirator, Razzak Kurkur's guest house. This was further corroborated by forensic evidence showing fuel was poured on the train compartment before being burnt.[22] It concluded that the train was attacked by thousands of Muslims of Signal Falia area.[40][41]

The alleged mastermind was said to be the cleric Maulvi Husain Haji Ibrahim Umarji and a dismissed Central Reserve Police Force officer named Nanumiyan, from Assam, who had instigated the Muslim crowds. Furthermore, two Kashmiris, Gulamnabi and Ali Mohammed, were in the same guesthouse for a fortnight prior to the event speaking about the Kashmir liberation movement.[22]

The Communist Party of India (Marxist) and the Indian National Congress party both objected to the exoneration of the Gujarat government by the commission citing the timing of the report (with general elections months away) as evident of unfairness. Congress spokesperson Veerappa Moily commented at the strange absolvement of the Gujarat government for complacency for the carnage before bringing out commission's second report. CPI(M) said the report reinforced communal prejudices.[42][43]

The term of the commission has been extended from time to time. It was extended for ninetieth time in December 2012 for a term of six months till 30 June 2013.[44]
Banerjee investigation

On 17 May 2004, two and half years after the incident, Lalu Prasad Yadav, became railway minister. In September 2004, Yadav appointed former Supreme Court Justice Umesh Chandra Banerjee to investigate the incident. In January 2005, two days before election in Lalu Prasad's native Bihar state, Banerjee concluded that the fire was accidental.

Banerjee's findings were challenged by Neelkanth Tulsidas Bhatia who was injured in the incident. In October 2006, the Gujarat High Court quashed the conclusions of Banerjee and ruled that the investigation was "unconstitutional, illegal and null and void", and declared its formation as a "colourable exercise of power with mala fide intentions", and its argument of accidental fire "opposed to the prima facie accepted facts on record.".[45][46][47][48][49][50]

Popular culture

Chand Bujh Gaya, a 2005 film, narrates the riots and Godhra train burning incident.[51]
2013 film Kai Po Che had the backdrop of 2002 Gujarat violence which also deals with train burning incident. The film was based on the novel The 3 Mistakes of My Life written by Chetan Bhagat depicting the same.

See also

Religious violence in India
Dabgarwad Massacre
Best Bakery case

References

^ a b Correspondent, NDTV (February 23, 2011). "Godhra verdict: 63 acquitted released from Sabarmati Jail". NDTV. Retrieved 2013-06-05.
^ "Death for 11, life sentence for 20 in Godhra train burning case". The Times of India. 1 March 2011.
^ "Eleven sentenced to death for India Godhra train blaze". BBC News. 1 March 2011.
^ "Gujarat riot death toll revealed". BBC News. 11 May 2005.
^ "Godhra verdict: 31 convicted, 63 acquitted". NDTV. 2011-01-03. Retrieved 2013-06-09.
^ "Front Page : Muslim mob attacked train: Nanavati Commission". The Hindu. Retrieved 2013-06-09.
^ a b "India Godhra train blaze verdict: 31 convicted". BBC. 22 February 2011. Retrieved 22 May 2013.
^ Burke, Jason (22 February 2011). "Godhra train fire verdict prompts tight security measures". The Guardian (London). Retrieved 24 February 2011.
^ "Godhra verdict: 31 convicted in Sabarmati Express burning case". The Times of India. 22 February 2011. Retrieved 24 February 2011.
^ a b "It was not a random attack on S-6 but kar sevaks were targeted, says judge". The Hindu. 6 March 2011. Retrieved 22 May 2013.
^ Jeffery, Craig (2011). Isabelle Clark-Decès, ed. A Companion to the Anthropology of India. Wiley-Blackwell. p. 1988. ISBN 978-1405198929.
^ These figures were reported to the Rajya Sabha by the Union Minister of State for Home Affairs Sriprakash Jaiswal in May 2005. "Gujarat riot death toll revealed". BBC News. 11 May 2005. Archived from the original on 26 February 2009. PTI (12 May 2005). "BJP cites govt statistics to defend Modi". ExpressIndia. Archived from the original on 26 February 2009. PTI (11 May 2005). "254 Hindus, 790 Muslims killed in post-Godhra riots". Indiainfo.com. Archived from the original on 26 February 2009.
^ Jaffrelot, Christophe (July 2003). "Communal Riots in Gujarat: The State at Risk?". Heidelberg Papers in South Asian and Comparative Politics: 16. Retrieved 5 November 2013.
^ Godhra questions, Frontline, Volume 19 – Issue 06, PRAVEEN SWAMI, 16–29 Mar 2002, The Hindu
^ Latest from Gujarat: Godhra anti-national, it will help our case, 30 Apr 2002, JANYALA SREENIVAS, AHMEDABAD, The Indian Express
^ a b "Fifty-eight killed in attack on Sabarmati Express". Rediff. 27 February 2002. Retrieved 11 May 2013.
^ "No women kidnapped in Godhra: Police". rediff.com. 2002-03-07. Retrieved 2013-06-09.
^ "Godhra Verdict: Key accused Maulvi Umarji acquitted". NDTV.com. 2011-02-22. Retrieved 2013-06-05.
^ Zafar, Abu. "Framed and acquitted: My tryst with late Umarji — Full Story". Newzfirst. Retrieved 2013-06-05.
^ "Godhra case: Eventually, Maulvi Umarji comes out unscathed – India – DNA". Dnaindia.com. Retrieved 2013-06-04.
^ "maulana umarji acquitted: Real Time News and Latest Updates on maulana umarji acquitted at The Times of India". The Times of India. 2011-02-22. Retrieved 2013-06-05.
^ a b c d e The Godhra conspiracy as Justice Nanavati saw it The Times of India, 28 September 2008. Retrieved 2012-02-19. Archived 21 February 2012.
^ "Godhra carnage convict granted bail by apex court". The Times of India. 28 April 2013. Retrieved 11 May 2013.
^ a b c "Chronology of Godhra trial". The Times of India. 22 February 2011. Retrieved 22 May 2013.
^ Venkatesan, J (2 May 2009). "Court: set up six fast track courts to try Godhra & riot cases". The Hindu. Retrieved 22 May 2013.
^ "Godhra carnage: fast-track court begins proceedings". The Indian Express (Ahmedabad). 27 May 2009. Retrieved 22 May 2013.
^ a b c "Special court convicts 31 in Godhra train burning case". Live India. 22 February 2012. Retrieved 22 May 2013.
^ a b "Godhra train carnage judgement tomorrow". Live India. 21 February 2011. Retrieved 22 May 2013.
^ Godhra verdict: 31 convicted, 63 acquitted NDTV – 1 March 2011
^ "Key accused let off in Godhra case". Mid Day. 23 February 2011. Retrieved 22 May 2013.
^ "Guj govt challenges acquittals in Godhra verdict before HC". The Indian Express. 25 June 2011. Retrieved 11 May 2013.
^ Godhra verdict proves Lalu's man wrong, again One India – 23 February 2011
^ a b "Godhra Train Carnage Verdict: Reactions". Outlook. 22 February 2011. Retrieved 11 May 2013.
^ Godhra Train Carnage Verdict: Reactions Tehelka – 22 February 2011
^ "The Hindu : Probe panel appointed". Hinduonnet.com. 2002-03-07. Retrieved 2013-06-04.
^ Modi succumbs to pressure, Nanavati put on Shah panel The Indian Express – 21 May 2002
^ Former Supreme Court judge joins Gujarat probe The Hindu – 23 May 2002
^ "Newly appointed justice Mehta of Nanavati Commission visits Godhra". IndLaw. UNI. Retrieved 11 May 2013.
^ "Gujarat: Nanavati Commission submitted its first report on 2002 riots in state". IndLaw. Retrieved 11 May 2013.
^ Uday, Mahurkar (26 September 2008). "Godhra carnage a conspiracy: Nanavati report". India Today. Retrieved 11 May 2013.
^ "Gujarat may come clean today, say 1,180 died in riots". IBN7. 28 February 2009. Retrieved 30 May 2013.
^ "Cong, CPM question Nanavati report's credibility". Times of India. 27 September 2008. Retrieved 30 May 2013.
^ cong, cpm slam Nanavati report for reinforcing 'communal bias.' Times of India. 28 September 2008.
^ "Gujarat Govt extends Nanavati panel term till next June". Business Line. Press Trust of India. 31 December 2012. Retrieved 11 May 2013.
^ Banerjee panel illegal: Gujarat HC The Indian Express – 13 October 2006
^ Bannerjee Committee illegal: High Court The Hindu – 14 October 2006
^ "HC terms Sabarmati Express panel illegal". The Financial Express. 14 October 2006. Retrieved 4 February 2011.
^ "Laloo flaunts Godhra report". The Tribune. 20 January 2005. Retrieved 4 February 2013.
^ "India train fire 'not mob attack'". BBC News. 17 January 2005. Retrieved 4 February 2011.
^ Press Trust of India (13 October 2006). "Banerjee panel illegal: Gujarat HC". Express India. Retrieved 4 February 2011.
^ "Gujarat violence film set for Friday release". indiaglitz.com. Indo-Asian News Service. 2 March 2005. Retrieved 27 March 2013.
I am more than a bit suspicious of your source, Ibrahim.

Is 58 people burned "several" :roll:

Per Google:
sev·er·al
ˈsev(ə)rəl/
determiner & pronoun
determiner: several; pronoun: several

1.
more than two but not many.
"the author of several books"
synonyms: some, a number of, a few;
IMHO sounds like 58 is not just "several"......

Your source claims that two commissions found that the fire was accidental.

Wiki reports 2 commissions: one that found that Muslim conspirators lead a mob that burned the train and one commission that claimed the fire was accidental but that commission was discredited:
On 17 May 2004, two and half years after the incident, Lalu Prasad Yadav, became railway minister. In September 2004, Yadav appointed former Supreme Court Justice Umesh Chandra Banerjee to investigate the incident. In January 2005, two days before election in Lalu Prasad's native Bihar state, Banerjee concluded that the fire was accidental.

Banerjee's findings were challenged by Neelkanth Tulsidas Bhatia who was injured in the incident. In October 2006, the Gujarat High Court quashed the conclusions of Banerjee and ruled that the investigation was "unconstitutional, illegal and null and void", and declared its formation as a "colourable exercise of power with mala fide intentions", and its argument of accidental fire "opposed to the prima facie accepted facts on record.".
Sounds like your source wants to minimize the number of Hindus killed......

And maybe spin facts a bit......

Perhaps/Probably more than a bit :twisted: :roll:
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
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Endovelico
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Re: India

Post by Endovelico »

MG, blessed be the time you apparently have in your hands to do research and prove how unreliable Ib can be. I'm starting to think Ib is a plant by some suspicious group wanting to discredit Muslims...
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Thank You for the Kind Words, Endovelico.

Post by monster_gardener »

Endovelico wrote:MG, blessed be the time you apparently have in your hands to do research and prove how unreliable Ib can be. I'm starting to think Ib is a plant by some suspicious group wanting to discredit Muslims...
Thank YOU VERY MUCH for post, Friend Endovelico.

And Thank You VERY MUCH for your Kind Words.

I remembered the incident from the news but Reza Aslan's article was so off that it provoked me to check if Aslan ;) was talking ;) about a different incident that I had missed: Nope, it was the same incident.

Mr. Modi may be a Nasty Hindu Nationalist but IMHO Muslim fanatics burning ~ 58 Hindus in a train is no accident and not just "several". :roll:

Seems that this Reza Aslan ;) who wrote the article may be a Lyin' ;) rather than a Lion ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aslan

ADDENDUM:
Endovelico wrote:I'm starting to think Ib is a plant by some suspicious group wanting to discredit Muslims...
I too am suspicious of iBS being a real person.....

Then again, he claims to be suspicious of me ;) :lol:

But he is Fun to Foil as a Fencing Dummy when I Flyte with him.
Last edited by monster_gardener on Sat Nov 16, 2013 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
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Ibrahim
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Re: India

Post by Ibrahim »

I don't want to interrupt a mutual love fest between you two mass-murder enthusiasts, but if you read the article or the linked Human Rights Watch report, the issue is the orchestrated reprisals against civilians in response to the fire. The mob was criminal, regardless of whether or not the fire was intentional, but the issue is that the wider-reaching reprisals were criminal and also backed by the police and government authorities, including Narendra Modi.


From the report:

In 2002, India experienced its greatest human rights crisis in a decade: orchestrated violence against Muslims in the state of Gujarat that claimed at least 2,000 lives in a matter of days. On February 27, 2002, in the town of Godhra, a Muslim mob attacked a train on which Hindu nationalists were traveling. Two train cars were set on fire, killing at least fifty-eight people. In the days following the Godhra massacre, Muslims were branded as terrorists by government officials and the local media while armed gangs set out on a four-day retaliatory killing spree. Muslim homes, businesses, and places of worship were destroyed. Hundreds of women and girls were gang-raped and sexually mutilated before being burnt to death. In the weeks that followed the massacres, Muslims destroyed Hindu homes and businesses in continued retaliatory violence. According to one official estimate, a total of 151 towns and 993 villages, covering 154 out of 182 assembly constituencies in the state, were affected by the violence.

In April 2002, Human Rights Watch released a 75-page report titled "We Have No Orders to Save You": State Complicity and Participation in Communal Violence in Gujarat. The report, based on investigations conducted in Ahmedabad in March 2002, revealed that the violence against Muslims was planned well in advance of the Godhra massacre and with extensive state participation and support. State officials of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), a Hindu nationalist party that also heads India's national coalition government, were directly involved in the attacks.
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/06/30/c ... -injustice




Sounds like your kind of candidate.
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Reza Aslan is a Puzzle of a Lyin' Liar

Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:I don't want to interrupt a mutual love fest between you two mass-murder enthusiasts, but if you read the article or the linked Human Rights Watch report, the issue is the orchestrated reprisals against civilians in response to the fire. The mob was criminal, regardless of whether or not the fire was intentional, but the issue is that the wider-reaching reprisals were criminal and also backed by the police and government authorities, including Narendra Modi.


From the report:

In 2002, India experienced its greatest human rights crisis in a decade: orchestrated violence against Muslims in the state of Gujarat that claimed at least 2,000 lives in a matter of days. On February 27, 2002, in the town of Godhra, a Muslim mob attacked a train on which Hindu nationalists were traveling. Two train cars were set on fire, killing at least fifty-eight people. In the days following the Godhra massacre, Muslims were branded as terrorists by government officials and the local media while armed gangs set out on a four-day retaliatory killing spree. Muslim homes, businesses, and places of worship were destroyed. Hundreds of women and girls were gang-raped and sexually mutilated before being burnt to death. In the weeks that followed the massacres, Muslims destroyed Hindu homes and businesses in continued retaliatory violence. According to one official estimate, a total of 151 towns and 993 villages, covering 154 out of 182 assembly constituencies in the state, were affected by the violence.

In April 2002, Human Rights Watch released a 75-page report titled "We Have No Orders to Save You": State Complicity and Participation in Communal Violence in Gujarat. The report, based on investigations conducted in Ahmedabad in March 2002, revealed that the violence against Muslims was planned well in advance of the Godhra massacre and with extensive state participation and support. State officials of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), a Hindu nationalist party that also heads India's national coalition government, were directly involved in the attacks.
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/06/30/c ... -injustice




Sounds like your kind of candidate.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Ibrahim.
the issue is the orchestrated reprisals against civilians in response to the fire. The mob was criminal, regardless of whether or not the fire was intentional, but the issue is that the wider-reaching reprisals were criminal and also backed by the police and government authorities, including Narendra Modi.
That is an issue but so is the veracity of your original source, Reza, the False, Aslan ;) :lol:. Thank you very much for quoting the Human Rights Watch report which corroborates that a Mob of Muslim Murderers burned the train full of Hindu pilgrims and thus the author of the report, Reza ASSlan ;) oops I mean Aslan is a Puzzle ;) of a Lyin' Liar.

If the False Aslan had admitted that a Murderous Muslim Mob had started the Mess instead of lyin' ;) so much, I might not have replied to your post.

http://narnia.wikia.com/wiki/Puzzle
Sounds like your kind of candidate.
Not at all.

I do not carry a torch ;) :twisted: for Mr. Modi :evil:

Don't think it would be that much more wise for me to live near him than it is for Muslims to do so.....*

As I read it, Muslims are not the only people on his little list of people who would never be missed :shock:


*Neither do I want to live near the Murderous Muslims of GujaRat ;) :twisted:
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Re: India

Post by Ibrahim »

Note that m_g once again misses the entire point and supports state-sanctioned mass-murder and mass-rape of civilians, in this case justified because an author soft-peddled the story of a criminal incident. The state-sanctioned mass-murder and gang-rape of these civilians based on their identity is ok because some author claims that a fire was accidental rather than intentional.
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Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:Note that m_g once again misses the entire point and supports state-sanctioned mass-murder and mass-rape of civilians, in this case justified because an author soft-peddled the story of a criminal incident. The state-sanctioned mass-murder and gang-rape of these civilians based on their identity is ok because some author claims that a fire was accidental rather than intentional.
Thanks for your post, Ibrahim.
m_g once again misses the entire point
Not at all.

One point I take from this story is that "The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily a nice guy or my friend."

Another point is not to trust your sources, Ibrahim, especially that Puzzle ;) of a Lyin' JackAss ;) , Reza Aslan. :lol:
and supports state-sanctioned mass-murder and mass-rape of civilians, in this case justified because an author soft-peddled the story of a criminal incident. The state-sanctioned mass-murder and gang-rape of these civilians based on their identity is ok
Nowhere in my post did I express any support for Mr. Modi or the violence.

You are again exposed as a liar.
Last edited by monster_gardener on Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India

Post by Ibrahim »

Bear in mind that the point of this was that a man was running for high office who participated in orchestrated mass killings, and m_g used this as an excuse to blame the victims and justify their murder, and his pathetic excuses for his support for and justification of mass-murder and gang rape are transparent. In every news item posted in this thread in which people are being murdered, all he does is make excuses for the perpetrators and blame the victims, as he has here. He defended genocide in Burma, and he defends Modi, all over the flimsiest and most transparent of pretexts.

Given the lack of basic decency or morality that his statements prove, its not surprising that he tries to cover up his disgraceful violent extremism with obvious falsehoods.
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Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:Bear in mind that the point of this was that a man was running for high office who participated in orchestrated mass killings, and m_g used this as an excuse to blame the victims and justify their murder, and his pathetic excuses for his support for and justification of mass-murder and gang rape are transparent. In every news item posted in this thread in which people are being murdered, all he does is make excuses for the perpetrators and blame the victims, as he has here. He defended genocide in Burma, and he defends Modi, all over the flimsiest and most transparent of pretexts.

Given the lack of basic decency or morality that his statements prove, its not surprising that he tries to cover up his disgraceful violent extremism with obvious falsehoods.
Thank you for your post, Ibrahim.
Monster Gardener wrote: Nowhere in my post did I express any support for Mr. Modi or the violence.

You are again exposed as a liar.
posting.php?mode=quote&f=29&p=64896#pr64894
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Re: India

Post by Ibrahim »

Apparently this thread only exists for m_g to prevaricate about his violent extremism, not to talk about India.
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Travel Advisory: Stay Away From Gujarat. Don't Trust R.Aslan

Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:Apparently this thread only exists for m_g to prevaricate about his violent extremism, not to talk about India.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Ibrahim.

No need for pathetic ;) prevaricating ;) complaints.

The thread is doing yeoman work.

1. The thread has demonstrated that Reza Aslan, the Muslim apologist, and his associate Mr. Brooks are sly liars who soft pedal :twisted: murderous Muslim atrocities in an effort to spin the truth to their advantage.

In the future, I would suggest using higher quality sources like Wikipedia ;) :lol: rather than subtly biased garbage ;) like Trashlan ;-) oops I mean AslanMedia.com.

2. Regarding India, the thread has demonstrated that Gujarat is a dangerous place where Hindus AND Muslims burn each other and others to death. :shock: :evil:

I would suggest that you put Gujarat on a list of places not to visit.
Might be a good idea to stick to dumps and landfills in Missouri ;)
A visit to Gujarat could leave you in Misery ;) :lol:
Or Worse :shock:
Instead of just dirty & stinky :lol:
As Usual. ;)

Perhaps your Peculiar Liking for Landfills & Dumps ;) may explain your use of AslanMedia.com
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Re: Travel Advisory: Stay Away From Gujarat. Don't Trust R.A

Post by Ibrahim »

monster_gardener wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:Apparently this thread only exists for m_g to prevaricate about his violent extremism, not to talk about India.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Ibrahim.

No need for pathetic ;) prevaricating ;) complaints.

The thread is doing yeoman work.

You don't do work. You lie on the Internet to promote the murder of civilians.

1. The thread has demonstrated that Reza Aslan, the Muslim apologist, and his associate Mr. Brooks are sly liars who soft pedal murderous Muslim atrocities in an effort to spin the truth to their advantage.
The article was about Modi, but for some reason you think that smearing some Muslim author for believing that a fire was accidental rather than intention is more important than mass-rape. You don't care about murder or rape victims, only spreading propaganda.

In the future, I would suggest using higher quality sources like Wikipedia ;) :lol: rather than subtly biased garbage ;) like Trashlan ;-) oops I mean AslanMedia.com.
Far better than your propaganda, which I debunk constantly. You're focusing on this detail in a transparent effort to distract from your multiple defenses of mass-murder and genocide.

2. Regarding India, the thread has demonstrated that Gujarat is a dangerous place where Hindus AND Muslims burn each other and others to death.
You don't care about either group and defend the mass-murder and mass-rape of people you've never met, as long as it conforms to the propaganda you spam. If anything you're glad that Hindus were murdered because it gives you an excuse to celebrate the murder of Muslims, even though you couldn't even tell the difference between them if you actually met any.

A visit to Gujarat could leave you in Misery ;) :lol:
Or Worse :shock:
Instead of just dirty & stinky :lol:
As Usual. ;)
Racist nonsense in which m_g mocks India as "dirty & stinky" in a thread right after dismissing and defending allegations of mass-murder and mass-rape.

That's m_g's contribution to the India subforum. Mass-murder in India and Burma is fine, and India "stinks." You could find better material scrawled on the side of a portable toilet at a Klan rally.
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Better to Be in Missouri than Misery........

Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:Apparently this thread only exists for m_g to prevaricate about his violent extremism, not to talk about India.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Ibrahim.

No need for pathetic ;) prevaricating ;) complaints.

The thread is doing yeoman work.

You don't do work. You lie on the Internet to promote the murder of civilians.

1. The thread has demonstrated that Reza Aslan, the Muslim apologist, and his associate Mr. Brooks are sly liars who soft pedal murderous Muslim atrocities in an effort to spin the truth to their advantage.
The article was about Modi, but for some reason you think that smearing some Muslim author for believing that a fire was accidental rather than intention is more important than mass-rape. You don't care about murder or rape victims, only spreading propaganda.

In the future, I would suggest using higher quality sources like Wikipedia ;) :lol: rather than subtly biased garbage ;) like Trashlan ;-) oops I mean AslanMedia.com.
Far better than your propaganda, which I debunk constantly. You're focusing on this detail in a transparent effort to distract from your multiple defenses of mass-murder and genocide.

2. Regarding India, the thread has demonstrated that Gujarat is a dangerous place where Hindus AND Muslims burn each other and others to death.
You don't care about either group and defend the mass-murder and mass-rape of people you've never met, as long as it conforms to the propaganda you spam. If anything you're glad that Hindus were murdered because it gives you an excuse to celebrate the murder of Muslims, even though you couldn't even tell the difference between them if you actually met any.

A visit to Gujarat could leave you in Misery ;) :lol:
Or Worse :shock:
Instead of just dirty & stinky :lol:
As Usual. ;)
Racist nonsense in which m_g mocks India as "dirty & stinky" in a thread right after dismissing and defending allegations of mass-murder and mass-rape.

That's m_g's contribution to the India subforum. Mass-murder in India and Burma is fine, and India "stinks." You could find better material scrawled on the side of a portable toilet at a Klan rally.
Thank You for your post, Ibrahim ;)

Not going to waste too ;) much time with you but I will deal with two ;) points:

defending allegations of mass-murder and mass-rape.
Again, I have expressed no support for Mr. Modi OR the Murderous Muslims of Gujarat.

You seem to be getting slower and denser lately.........

Have had to repeat this several times..

mocks India as "dirty & stinky"
I'm not mocking India ;) , iBS.

I suspect you were just trying to do another lie but on the off chance that you didn't understand WHO ;) I was mocking, I'm going to repeat the advisory in full and try to explain it to you ;) .
I would suggest that you put Gujarat on a list of places not to visit.
Might be a good idea to stick to dumps and landfills in Missouri ;)
A visit to Gujarat could leave you in Misery ;) :lol:
Or Worse :shock:
Instead of just dirty & stinky :lol:
As Usual. ;)
Stay way from Gujarat, iBS. You might get killed if another riot breaks out.
You would be better off visiting dumps and landfills in Missouri ;) which will leave you stinky and dirty while a visit to Gujarat might leave you in misery ;)

Better to be in Missouri than in Misery ;) :lol:

Even though you seem to be a Mocking ;) Bird who thinks Missouri is a dump :lol: .
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Re: India

Post by Ibrahim »

Here we go again. m_g defends the mass-murder of civilians, then says he doesn't. Then he mocks India/Indians as "stinky," then says he doesn't. Always a feeble excuse following some display of moral depravity.
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Basic Program... Here We Goto ;-) Again.

Post by monster_gardener »

0 Rem
Ibrahim wrote:Here we go again. m_g defends the mass-murder of civilians, then says he doesn't. Then he mocks India/Indians as "stinky," then says he doesn't. Always a feeble excuse following some display of moral depravity.
10 "Print "Thank You Very Much for your post, Ibrahim."

20 Print: "I tell Ibrahim that I did not & do not defend Mr. Modi or the Gujarat Violence done by Muslims & Hindus to Hindus & Muslims and more... Etc."

30 Print "Ibrahim lies and says I do."

40 Goto 10
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Re: India

Post by Ibrahim »

Given that you spam the same garbage in many threads, regardless of the actual subject of the thread, I don't know of comparing yourself to a spambot is really in your best interest.
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Re: India

Post by noddy »

muslims and hindus killing eachother is backpage news.

sachin has retired.
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Re: India

Post by Ibrahim »

noddy wrote:sachin has retired.
BBC international was all over this. They know what's really important.
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No Spamalot in India

Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:Given that you spam the same garbage in many threads, regardless of the actual subject of the thread, I don't know of comparing yourself to a spambot is really in your best interest.
Thanks for your post, Ibrahim.

Was just amused by how our conversation could be condensed into a simple BASIC program that could have been written decades ago.......

Perhaps before there was any spam except the non-Halal type.....

Image


BTW interesting that Spamalot has been to Japan & Korea but not yet to India AFAICT........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spamalot#P ... on_history

Warning: Video in the link below may be mildly NSFW.........

http://www.centertheatregroup.org/tickets/spamalot/


IIRC it is best to be careful with pork or beef products in India....... ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Reb ... cartridges
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Re: India

Post by Ibrahim »

http://www.tehelka.com/its-a-myth-that- ... f-temples/

Richard Eaton is the Wikipedia, the Google and, many would argue, the last word on medieval and Islamic history in India. His bibliography is too vast to list, but the vast repertoire includes Islamic History As Global History, The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204-1760 and Social History of the Deccan, 1300-1761: Eight Indian Lives. After the destruction of the Babri Masjid and a myriad speculative conversations around how many temples Muslim rulers had destroyed in India, Eaton decided to count. That became a book titled Temple Desecration and Muslim States in Medieval India. In other words, he is the best myth-buster there is and that’s precisely what he did to the audiences at THiNK. Eaton explains why it’s crucial today for us to get our history right. Especially on the period he writes about.
EDITED EXCERPTS FROM AN INTERVIEW

You are now working on a magnum-opus history of medieval India, often construed as ‘the Muslim period’. Can you explain why the descriptor ‘Muslim period’ doesn’t work for you?

The book I’m working on now is called The Lion and the Lotus. The lion represents Persia and the Lotus, India. It’s the story of two intersecting megapolises — Persian and Sanskrit. The idea is to escape the trap of looking at this period as the endless and dreary chapter of Hindu-Muslim interaction, if not conflict, which is the conventional and historically wrong approach.

Can you explain why this is historically wrong?
Because religion is anachronistic. Contemporary evidence does not support the assumption that religion was the primary sign or indicator of cultural identity. That is a back projection from the 19th and 20th centuries, which is not justified by the evidence. For example, a word that was typically used to describe rulers who came from beyond the Khyber Pass was not ‘musalmaan’ but rather Turushka or Turk. An ethnic, not religious, identity. What’s fascinating is that the early Turkish rulers, the Ghaznavids, began as foreigners and conquerors; over time, they were behaving more and more like Rajput dynasties. Like Mahmud of Ghazni, for instance. He took the basic credo of Islam — “There is no god but Allah” — translated that into Sanskrit and put it down on the coinage to be freely minted in north-western India. It was an attempt to take Arabic words and structure them into Sanskrit vocabulary. This is a history of assimilation and not imposition. In Vijayanagar in the Deccan, you will find that most of the government buildings were built with arches and domes. You think you are inside a mosque but you are not. Vijayanagar had Hindu kings. This means that the aesthetic vision of Iran has seeped into India so much now that it’s accepted as normal.

What about the masses in this period from 1000 to 1800 AD, who were Hindu?
Okay, let’s talk about ordinary people. You find that languages like Telugu, Bengali, Kannada and Marathi have absorbed a huge amount of Persian vocabulary for everyday concerns. Take another example from the Vijayanagar empire in the south. I talk about south India because that’s where Islam did not have as long a penetration as in the north. The Vijayanagar kings had these long audience halls described as hundred-column and thousand-column palaces — hazaarsatoon. A concept that goes all the way back to Persepolis where you literally do have a hundred columns. You take the floor plan of Persepolis, Iran, in the 4th century BC, which is pre-Islamic, and place it side by side with the floor plan of a palace at Vijayanagar. It’s exactly the same. Neither was built by Muslims. Persepolis was built by Zoroastrians in the 3rd or 4th century BC. And Vijayanagar was built by Hindus in the 14th century AD. Neither has anything to do with religion, but both have everything to do with power. It’s like the present day spread of Coca Cola or Tuborg beer. It’s aspirational but not religious. And it all happens over a period of time.

Which is why you also don’t like the use of the word ‘conversions’ for this period? You say conversions suggest a pancake-like flip, which is not how Islam spread. What do you mean by that?
I hate the use of the word ‘conversions’. When I was studying the growth of Islam in Punjab, I came across a fascinating text on the Sial community. It traces their history from the 14th to the 19th century. If you look at the names of these people, you will find that the percentage of Arabic names increased gradually between the 14th and 19th centuries. In the early 14th century, they had no Arabic names. By the late 14th century, 5 percent had Arabic names. It’s not until the late 19th century that 100 percent had Arabic names. So, the identification with Islam is a gradual process because the name you give your child reflects your ethos and the cultural context in which you live. The same holds true when you look at the name assigned to god. In the 16th century, the words Muslims in Bengal used for god were Prabhu or Niranjan etc — Sanskrit or Bengali words. It’s not until the 19th century that the word Allah is used. In both Punjab and Bengal, the process of Islamisation is a gradual one. That’s why the word ‘conversion’ is misleading — it connotes a sudden and complete change. All your previous identities are thrown out. That’s not how it happens. When you talk about an entire society, you are talking about a very gradual, glacial experience.

You also examined at length the destruction of temples in this period. What did you find?
The temple discourse is huge in India and this is something that needs to be historicised. We need to look at the contemporary evidence. What do the inscriptions and contemporary chronicles say? What was so striking to me when I went into that project after the destruction of the Babri Masjid was that nobody had actually looked at the contemporary evidence. People were just saying all sorts of things about thousands of temples being destroyed by medieval Muslim kings. I looked at inscriptions, chronicles and foreign observers’ accounts from the 12th century up to the 18th century across South Asia to see what was destroyed and why. The big temples that were politically irrelevant were never harmed. Those that were politically relevant — patronised by an enemy king or a formerly loyal king who becomes a rebel — only those temples are wiped out. Because in the territory that is annexed to the State, all the property is considered to be under the protection of the State. The total number of temples that were destroyed across those six centuries was 80, not many thousands as is sometimes conjectured by various people. No one has contested that and I wrote that article 10 years ago.

Even the history of Aurangzeb, you say, is badly in need of rewriting.
Absolutely. Let’s start with his reputation for temple destruction. The temples that he destroyed were not those associated with enemy kings, but with Rajput individuals who were formerly loyal and then become rebellious. Aurangzeb also built more temples in Bengal than any other Mughal ruler.
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Turk can mean up to 99.8% Muslim/Sikh of Aurangzeb....

Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:http://www.tehelka.com/its-a-myth-that- ... f-temples/

Richard Eaton is the Wikipedia, the Google and, many would argue, the last word on medieval and Islamic history in India. His bibliography is too vast to list, but the vast repertoire includes Islamic History As Global History, The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204-1760 and Social History of the Deccan, 1300-1761: Eight Indian Lives. After the destruction of the Babri Masjid and a myriad speculative conversations around how many temples Muslim rulers had destroyed in India, Eaton decided to count. That became a book titled Temple Desecration and Muslim States in Medieval India. In other words, he is the best myth-buster there is and that’s precisely what he did to the audiences at THiNK. Eaton explains why it’s crucial today for us to get our history right. Especially on the period he writes about.
EDITED EXCERPTS FROM AN INTERVIEW

You are now working on a magnum-opus history of medieval India, often construed as ‘the Muslim period’. Can you explain why the descriptor ‘Muslim period’ doesn’t work for you?

The book I’m working on now is called The Lion and the Lotus. The lion represents Persia and the Lotus, India. It’s the story of two intersecting megapolises — Persian and Sanskrit. The idea is to escape the trap of looking at this period as the endless and dreary chapter of Hindu-Muslim interaction, if not conflict, which is the conventional and historically wrong approach.

Can you explain why this is historically wrong?
Because religion is anachronistic. Contemporary evidence does not support the assumption that religion was the primary sign or indicator of cultural identity. That is a back projection from the 19th and 20th centuries, which is not justified by the evidence. For example, a word that was typically used to describe rulers who came from beyond the Khyber Pass was not ‘musalmaan’ but rather Turushka or Turk. An ethnic, not religious, identity. What’s fascinating is that the early Turkish rulers, the Ghaznavids, began as foreigners and conquerors; over time, they were behaving more and more like Rajput dynasties. Like Mahmud of Ghazni, for instance. He took the basic credo of Islam — “There is no god but Allah” — translated that into Sanskrit and put it down on the coinage to be freely minted in north-western India. It was an attempt to take Arabic words and structure them into Sanskrit vocabulary. This is a history of assimilation and not imposition. In Vijayanagar in the Deccan, you will find that most of the government buildings were built with arches and domes. You think you are inside a mosque but you are not. Vijayanagar had Hindu kings. This means that the aesthetic vision of Iran has seeped into India so much now that it’s accepted as normal.

What about the masses in this period from 1000 to 1800 AD, who were Hindu?
Okay, let’s talk about ordinary people. You find that languages like Telugu, Bengali, Kannada and Marathi have absorbed a huge amount of Persian vocabulary for everyday concerns. Take another example from the Vijayanagar empire in the south. I talk about south India because that’s where Islam did not have as long a penetration as in the north. The Vijayanagar kings had these long audience halls described as hundred-column and thousand-column palaces — hazaarsatoon. A concept that goes all the way back to Persepolis where you literally do have a hundred columns. You take the floor plan of Persepolis, Iran, in the 4th century BC, which is pre-Islamic, and place it side by side with the floor plan of a palace at Vijayanagar. It’s exactly the same. Neither was built by Muslims. Persepolis was built by Zoroastrians in the 3rd or 4th century BC. And Vijayanagar was built by Hindus in the 14th century AD. Neither has anything to do with religion, but both have everything to do with power. It’s like the present day spread of Coca Cola or Tuborg beer. It’s aspirational but not religious. And it all happens over a period of time.

Which is why you also don’t like the use of the word ‘conversions’ for this period? You say conversions suggest a pancake-like flip, which is not how Islam spread. What do you mean by that?
I hate the use of the word ‘conversions’. When I was studying the growth of Islam in Punjab, I came across a fascinating text on the Sial community. It traces their history from the 14th to the 19th century. If you look at the names of these people, you will find that the percentage of Arabic names increased gradually between the 14th and 19th centuries. In the early 14th century, they had no Arabic names. By the late 14th century, 5 percent had Arabic names. It’s not until the late 19th century that 100 percent had Arabic names. So, the identification with Islam is a gradual process because the name you give your child reflects your ethos and the cultural context in which you live. The same holds true when you look at the name assigned to god. In the 16th century, the words Muslims in Bengal used for god were Prabhu or Niranjan etc — Sanskrit or Bengali words. It’s not until the 19th century that the word Allah is used. In both Punjab and Bengal, the process of Islamisation is a gradual one. That’s why the word ‘conversion’ is misleading — it connotes a sudden and complete change. All your previous identities are thrown out. That’s not how it happens. When you talk about an entire society, you are talking about a very gradual, glacial experience.

You also examined at length the destruction of temples in this period. What did you find?
The temple discourse is huge in India and this is something that needs to be historicised. We need to look at the contemporary evidence. What do the inscriptions and contemporary chronicles say? What was so striking to me when I went into that project after the destruction of the Babri Masjid was that nobody had actually looked at the contemporary evidence. People were just saying all sorts of things about thousands of temples being destroyed by medieval Muslim kings. I looked at inscriptions, chronicles and foreign observers’ accounts from the 12th century up to the 18th century across South Asia to see what was destroyed and why. The big temples that were politically irrelevant were never harmed. Those that were politically relevant — patronised by an enemy king or a formerly loyal king who becomes a rebel — only those temples are wiped out. Because in the territory that is annexed to the State, all the property is considered to be under the protection of the State. The total number of temples that were destroyed across those six centuries was 80, not many thousands as is sometimes conjectured by various people. No one has contested that and I wrote that article 10 years ago.

Even the history of Aurangzeb, you say, is badly in need of rewriting.
Absolutely. Let’s start with his reputation for temple destruction. The temples that he destroyed were not those associated with enemy kings, but with Rajput individuals who were formerly loyal and then become rebellious. Aurangzeb also built more temples in Bengal than any other Mughal ruler.

Thank You Very Much for your post, Ibrahim.

Interesting but.......
Richard_Eaton_per_an_interview_by_Revati_Laul_in_an_article_on_Tehelka.com_reposted_by_Ibrahim_on_the_ OTNOT_forum** wrote:
For example, a word that was typically used to describe rulers who came from beyond the Khyber Pass was not ‘musalmaan’ but rather Turushka or Turk. An ethnic, not religious, identity.
Not necessarily

An ethnic group can become HIGHLY associated with a religion.

In popular Western parlance, Arab & Turk can largely = Muslim.

For good reason.......

Per Wikipedia, Turkey is currently 99.8 % Muslim......*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey#Religion
Richard_Eaton_&_Revati_Laul_per_an_interview_by_Revati_Laul_in_an_article_on_Tehelka.com_reposted_by_Ibrahim_on_the_ OTNOT_forum** wrote:

Even the history of Aurangzeb, you say, is badly in need of rewriting.

Absolutely. Let’s start with his reputation for temple destruction. The temples that he destroyed were not those associated with enemy kings, but with Rajput individuals who were formerly loyal and then become rebellious. Aurangzeb also built more temples in Bengal than any other Mughal ruler.
Then it seems odd that people in India like Gobind Singh got so Sikh ;) oops I mean sick of Aurangzeb and that Aurangzeb has the reputation of a bigoted Muslim fanatic unlike his Great Grand-Dad Akbar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal_emperors#Akbar....

The comments to the article are also interesting ;)

Rajiv Singh
Excellent example of commies sucking up to their White Sahebs.
Look how so called expert manipulates the facts.
Reply · 12 · Like · Follow Post · November 23 at 12:20pm

Shams Kabir · Follow · St. Xavier's College, Bombay
Find the papers for the sources and references here

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/prit ... mples1.pdf

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/prit ... mples2.pdf
Reply · 10 · Like · Follow Post · December 1 at 8:57am

Aditya Shastri · Follow · Mumbai, Maharashtra, India
So am I reading this right? 80 temples destroyed over 5 centuries ? :) guess he hasn't looked as closely at Hampi, Halebedu as he claims. Hampi itself has over 40 temples destroyed, and no ruin of a temple, with dome as he claims.
Reply · 10 · Like · December 2 at 12:35am
John Fritz · London, United Kingdom
Aditya Shastri -- Re Hampi: wonder where you get "40"; I can think of only 2 or 3 imperial temples that had structural damage. Of course sanctuary images MAY have been taken out and smashed; but vast amount of sculpture not touched.
Reply · 13 · Like · December 2 at 2:27am
Aditya Shastri · Follow · Mumbai, Maharashtra, India
John Fritz http://hampi.in/hemakuta-temples , this basic complex contains over 3 dozen temples on one hill alone. Besides that there are the Krishna temple complex, and temples which were constructed to commemorate the victory over Kalinga.
To destroy the temple, is to destroy the representation of main deity. It doesn't mean the raizing to the ground of the structure.
Reply · 6 · Like · December 2 at 2:35am

View 4 more
Ishant Rana · Top Commenter
Another sad attempt by Westerners to justify Colonialism...glorify the Central Asian invaders, all the so called "Muslims royal dynasties" of South Asia were of Central Asian Turk origin, who were patrons of Persian culture, by glorifying their invasion and rule, westerners often justify and glorify European colonialism in India.
Reply · 8 · Like · Follow Post · November 28 at 9:57am

Afra Siyab
A must read research piece, many myths find exposed. Wonderful scholarship needed particularly at this time....
Reply · 9 · Like · Follow Post · November 15 at 12:07pm

Ankur Jayawant
gunga din commies and whitey progressives...a deadly combination
Reply · 5 · Like · Follow Post · December 3 at 7:52am

Asim Faruqui
A must read article about the history...
Reply · 4 · Like · Follow Post · December 1 at 11:02pm

Amit Pandit · Auckland, New Zealand
leftists terrorists and islamofascists make strange bedfellows.
Reply · 3 · Like · Follow Post · December 3 at 8:46am

Manjula Kolanu · Follow
really crazy interpretation.. This is a history of assimilation and not imposition??? If change had taken place simply due to trade or travel exchanges, it coudl be dubbed assimilation, but happened due to bloody, violent wars, so clearly its imposition...and if allah was minted on coins in Sanskrit, how can the writer say religion didnt enter the picture.. rulers tried to thrust Islam .. there s no denying it
Reply · 1 · Like · Follow Post · December 4 at 5:49am

Abdul Muheed · Top Commenter · Civil Engineer at NATIONAL CONTRACTING COMPANY KSA
rulers tried to thrust Islam - For the good of the whole Mankind!!!
Reply · Like · December 5 at 6:38am

Rose Cherry
in Malabar ( Northern Kerala ) itself Tipu Sultan distroyed more than 1000 temples. Go to Hampi you can see just the temples are not distroyed but the statues and temple art was distroyed. No section in world would have undegone the pain taken by hindus and are still a society that supports peace and tolerance. Atleast let us not forget our past and insult our own people. The distoyed remains of the temples are better proof than such writings.
Reply · 1 · Like · Follow Post · December 4 at 1:16am

Rose Cherry
Iam pretty sure muslims will be happy reading this as it glorifies the invaders , if the same post was written about 300 forts built by shivaji maharaj to protect india...they would have all shouted and barked at the writer.
Reply · Like · December 4 at 1:19am

*Wasn't always this high (only ;) ~80+% in 1914) but over time when Muslims dominate an area, it takes a lot of resistance to keep Islam from increasing..... Resistance as in Reconquista Spain, Tours in France, the Gates of Vienna in Central Europe and the Sikhs in India.....

**NOTE: Extended quote detail was added as a public service for the benefit of Ibrahim.. ;) :lol:
Last edited by monster_gardener on Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Ibrahim
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Re: India

Post by Ibrahim »

Not to question an uneducated and violent bigot like m_g over his mastery of Indian history, but anybody actually reading his trash post should be aware he's quoting the text as if it was my own and responding to me directly as though I wrote it, which is not the case.
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