Private Equity Firm Seizes Sovereign Nations Naval Vessel

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Enki
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Private Equity Firm Seizes Sovereign Nations Naval Vessel

Post by Enki »

http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/Gha ... t_12839826
BUENOS AIRES, Argentina (AP) — Hundreds of sailors who had to leave the Argentine navy's signature sailing ship moored in Africa, seized by a court in a debt dispute, arrived in Buenos Aires early yesterday, frustrated and disheartened.
They had hoped to sail the tall ship Libertad back across the Atlantic and arrive in Buenos Aires in full glory, but relatives waiting for them at the airport with balloons and banners said the sailors felt ashamed instead.
It appears the Libertad may be stuck indefinitely in Ghana, since President Cristina Fernandez refuses to negotiate with the investors who persuaded a judge to hold it as collateral for Argentina's unpaid debts. NML Capital Ltd wants Argentina to forfeit a $20 million bond in order to free the ship, but Fernandez has said she won't pay them a dime.
"They had to leave it there without a ceremony, without anything. As a member of the military, that makes me a bit sad," said Paola Garcia, who was waiting for her husband, crew member Maximiliano Alegre.
Both are captains in the navy and committed to Argentina's military. He left on the Libertad's latest tour June 2, the day before the birth of their first child, Abril.
"As a mother and a wife, I'm content that they're coming home. But as part of the military, we're sad to leave the frigate with just a few crew members there. I don't know what they're going to do — it's our only frigate and I don't know if we're going to lose it or what," Garcia said.
NML Capital told the judge in Ghana that the three-masted ship could set sail as soon as Argentina pays $20 million against more than $300 million the investment fund says Argentina owes on bonds that were defaulted on when the South American country suffered economic collapse a decade ago.
Instead, Fernandez sent her ministers to Ghana and the United Nations in failed attempts to persuade Ghana's government to overturn the judge's order.
"As long as I am president, they can keep the frigate, but no one will take the liberty, sovereignty and dignity of this country, not a vulture fund, not anyone," Fernandez declared, suggesting the ship could remain stuck in Ghana for at least three years, until her term is up.
The president's position saddened the ship's young sailors, who were hoping to sail back to South America.
Because any other Argentine government asset sent to pick up the navy cadets could be seized as well, Fernandez's government was forced to hire an Air France charter to bring back the sailors, who include citizens of a half-dozen South American nations.
NML Capital is a subsidiary of billionaire Paul Singer's Elliott Capital Management fund, which has demanded payment in full plus interest for its share of the $100 billion in bonds that Argentina defaulted on a decade ago. The vast majority of bondholders settled for 30 cents on the dollar, but Singer held out and has become Argentina's worst enemy by filing suits around the world to embargo the country's assets.
The ship's captain and a skeleton crew were left behind to maintain the Libertad at Ghana's Tema Port, where authorities complained that it has become a nuisance, costing the government thousands of dollars a day in lost fees by forcing delays in transferring cargo to other ships that are now lining up at sea.
The Argentine newspaper La Nacion reported that Ghana's Ports Authority director, Margaret Campbell, asked the judge to order the Libertad moved to a less-busy berth.
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Re: Private Equity Firm Seizes Sovereign Nations Naval Vesse

Post by Demon of Undoing »

As long as the corporations use the protections that states provide, this is possible.

Argentina should use the prerogative that states retain, ie use force to free the ship. Maybe arrest/ assassinate the corporate CEOs. Treat the vulture capital types as a hostile force or a terrorist organization funding and inspiring kidnapping and theft. Why not.
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Re: Private Equity Firm Seizes Sovereign Nations Naval Vesse

Post by Enki »

Demon of Undoing wrote:As long as the corporations use the protections that states provide, this is possible.

Argentina should use the prerogative that states retain, ie use force to free the ship. Maybe arrest/ assassinate the corporate CEOs. Treat the vulture capital types as a hostile force or a terrorist organization funding and inspiring kidnapping and theft. Why not.
That would be kind of awesome.

I am really curious as to how Ghana was able to seize the ship.
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Re: Private Equity Firm Seizes Sovereign Nations Naval Vesse

Post by Sparky »

Enki wrote:
Demon of Undoing wrote:As long as the corporations use the protections that states provide, this is possible.

Argentina should use the prerogative that states retain, ie use force to free the ship. Maybe arrest/ assassinate the corporate CEOs. Treat the vulture capital types as a hostile force or a terrorist organization funding and inspiring kidnapping and theft. Why not.
That would be kind of awesome.

I am really curious as to how Ghana was able to seize the ship.
It's a square rigged sailing ship - it's essentially defenceless.
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Enki
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Re: Private Equity Firm Seizes Sovereign Nations Naval Vesse

Post by Enki »

Sparky wrote:
Enki wrote:
Demon of Undoing wrote:As long as the corporations use the protections that states provide, this is possible.

Argentina should use the prerogative that states retain, ie use force to free the ship. Maybe arrest/ assassinate the corporate CEOs. Treat the vulture capital types as a hostile force or a terrorist organization funding and inspiring kidnapping and theft. Why not.
That would be kind of awesome.

I am really curious as to how Ghana was able to seize the ship.
It's a square rigged sailing ship - it's essentially defenceless.
That begs my second question. Why the Hell is Argentina sailing a square rigged sailing ship to Ghana?
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Re: Private Equity Firm Seizes Sovereign Nations Naval Vesse

Post by Sparky »

Enki wrote:
Sparky wrote:
Enki wrote:
Demon of Undoing wrote:As long as the corporations use the protections that states provide, this is possible.

Argentina should use the prerogative that states retain, ie use force to free the ship. Maybe arrest/ assassinate the corporate CEOs. Treat the vulture capital types as a hostile force or a terrorist organization funding and inspiring kidnapping and theft. Why not.
That would be kind of awesome.

I am really curious as to how Ghana was able to seize the ship.
It's a square rigged sailing ship - it's essentially defenceless.
That begs my second question. Why the Hell is Argentina sailing a square rigged sailing ship to Ghana?
'Coz it's cool. 8-) It's a training ship for navy cadets.
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Re: Private Equity Firm Seizes Sovereign Nations Naval Vesse

Post by Enki »

Ahh, I guess that makes sense. I like Demon's idea of Argentina going Obama v Osama on Singer.
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Re: Private Equity Firm Seizes Sovereign Nations Naval Vesse

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Why are states exempt from the repo man?
Censorship isn't necessary
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Re: Private Equity Firm Seizes Sovereign Nations Naval Vesse

Post by Demon of Undoing »

Mr. Perfect wrote:Why are states exempt from the repo man?

Why are corporations exempt from geopolitics?
Farcus

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Post by Farcus »

Demon of Undoing wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:Why are states exempt from the repo man?

Why are corporations exempt from geopolitics?

Yeah no lavender. :lol:
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Re: Private Equity Firm Seizes Sovereign Nations Naval Vesse

Post by Taboo »

This is older than radio. Gunboat diplomacy, of a sort?
Weak states get their ships seized.
I don't think anyone will seize the USS Enterprise anytime soon. Those damn photon torpedoes, um, I mean CAGs.
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Re: Private Equity Firm Seizes Sovereign Nations Naval Vesse

Post by Enki »

Taboo wrote:This is older than radio. Gunboat diplomacy, of a sort?
Weak states get their ships seized.
I don't think anyone will seize the USS Enterprise anytime soon. Those damn photon torpedoes, um, I mean CAGs.

Small states should take a cue and start training assassins and drones. Ninjas can fly coach, don't need a frigate. War just got a lot cheaper, much easier for small states to make a disparate impact.
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Re: Private Equity Firm Seizes Sovereign Nations Naval Vesse

Post by Taboo »

Enki wrote:
Taboo wrote:This is older than radio. Gunboat diplomacy, of a sort?
Weak states get their ships seized.
I don't think anyone will seize the USS Enterprise anytime soon. Those damn photon torpedoes, um, I mean CAGs.

Small states should take a cue and start training assassins and drones. Ninjas can fly coach, don't need a frigate. War just got a lot cheaper, much easier for small states to make a disparate impact.
I agree. States are too nice, too corseted nowadays, too willing to play by the rules of civilized behavior. They should realize they're free, and do more killing, looting, pillaging and perhaps even raping, eh Tinker?
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Re: Private Equity Firm Seizes Sovereign Nations Naval Vesse

Post by Demon of Undoing »

I'm up for the pillaging, but with the way my lower back has been lately, the raping is right out.
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Re: Private Equity Firm Seizes Sovereign Nations Naval Vesse

Post by Ibrahim »

Taboo wrote:I don't think anyone will seize the USS Enterprise anytime soon.
This is true. In a war scenario China or somebody would just crack it in half with an ASBM. Outside of that, what other country would be stupid enough to absorb the operating costs?
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Scuttle Ship/Let Philadelphia Freedom Scapa Flow in Ghana

Post by monster_gardener »

Enki wrote:http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/Gha ... t_12839826
BUENOS AIRES, Argentina (AP) — Hundreds of sailors who had to leave the Argentine navy's signature sailing ship moored in Africa, seized by a court in a debt dispute, arrived in Buenos Aires early yesterday, frustrated and disheartened.
They had hoped to sail the tall ship Libertad back across the Atlantic and arrive in Buenos Aires in full glory, but relatives waiting for them at the airport with balloons and banners said the sailors felt ashamed instead.
It appears the Libertad may be stuck indefinitely in Ghana, since President Cristina Fernandez refuses to negotiate with the investors who persuaded a judge to hold it as collateral for Argentina's unpaid debts. NML Capital Ltd wants Argentina to forfeit a $20 million bond in order to free the ship, but Fernandez has said she won't pay them a dime.
"They had to leave it there without a ceremony, without anything. As a member of the military, that makes me a bit sad," said Paola Garcia, who was waiting for her husband, crew member Maximiliano Alegre.
Both are captains in the navy and committed to Argentina's military. He left on the Libertad's latest tour June 2, the day before the birth of their first child, Abril.
"As a mother and a wife, I'm content that they're coming home. But as part of the military, we're sad to leave the frigate with just a few crew members there. I don't know what they're going to do — it's our only frigate and I don't know if we're going to lose it or what," Garcia said.
NML Capital told the judge in Ghana that the three-masted ship could set sail as soon as Argentina pays $20 million against more than $300 million the investment fund says Argentina owes on bonds that were defaulted on when the South American country suffered economic collapse a decade ago.
Instead, Fernandez sent her ministers to Ghana and the United Nations in failed attempts to persuade Ghana's government to overturn the judge's order.
"As long as I am president, they can keep the frigate, but no one will take the liberty, sovereignty and dignity of this country, not a vulture fund, not anyone," Fernandez declared, suggesting the ship could remain stuck in Ghana for at least three years, until her term is up.
The president's position saddened the ship's young sailors, who were hoping to sail back to South America.
Because any other Argentine government asset sent to pick up the navy cadets could be seized as well, Fernandez's government was forced to hire an Air France charter to bring back the sailors, who include citizens of a half-dozen South American nations.
NML Capital is a subsidiary of billionaire Paul Singer's Elliott Capital Management fund, which has demanded payment in full plus interest for its share of the $100 billion in bonds that Argentina defaulted on a decade ago. The vast majority of bondholders settled for 30 cents on the dollar, but Singer held out and has become Argentina's worst enemy by filing suits around the world to embargo the country's assets.
The ship's captain and a skeleton crew were left behind to maintain the Libertad at Ghana's Tema Port, where authorities complained that it has become a nuisance, costing the government thousands of dollars a day in lost fees by forcing delays in transferring cargo to other ships that are now lining up at sea.
The Argentine newspaper La Nacion reported that Ghana's Ports Authority director, Margaret Campbell, asked the judge to order the Libertad moved to a less-busy berth.
Thank you Very Much for the Thread, Tinker.

Not going to go into right and wrong here except that it may be in Uz's interest to support Argentina even if Singer is right.... ;) :roll:

There may be a quick and dirty way though painful way for Argentina to defy Singer....

Scuttle the ship where it is right now...... Do it in a way that makes the best combination of no salvage value to screw Singer and maximum Navigational Hazard to screw Ghana for cooperating with Singer..........

Would show Singer that he ain't gettin' Nutt'n Honey ;) no way, no how........ Time to settle if he wants to get anything at all......

We Uz did this with the USS Philadelphia when the Barbary Pirates captured her........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_De ... iladelphia

The Germans did it at the end of World War 1 when their fleet was interned by the British at Scapa Flow

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuttling_ ... Scapa_Flow

Main downside is that the Argentine Sailors who do this may end up interned for a long time but perhaps citizens & assets of Ghana in Argentina if any could be held hostage to get their release........ Anticipate the same happening to Argentines and assets in Ghana........

Might start a war between Argentina and Ghana which might raise Kirchner's popularity and be practice for Falklands Malvinas Round 2.......

Might be interesting who would back who.......

For example would Ibrahim consider Iran to be racist if Iran backed Argentina against Ghana :twisted:

The Rocky Road ;) to Philadelphia Freedom......

NSNo-XlRYcg

My apologies if Ibrahim thinks this is racist ;) .......... Rocky, a white guy, beating up Apollo Creed, a black guy.......... ;)

But the Captain Fantastic version would not work so I have provided a direct link to it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sd6P2Tu8rw

Well' I'm having a Rocky Road getting any of these vids to embed and it's time for bed so here's a direct link to the Rocky Version too..... L8R.......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sd6P2Tu8rw
Last edited by monster_gardener on Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:12 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Private Equity Firm Seizes Sovereign Nations Naval Vesse

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Demon of Undoing wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:Why are states exempt from the repo man?

Why are corporations exempt from geopolitics?
I'm not sure anyone said they were.

The first nations to break these kinds of contracts will be the first ones to fold. Who will continue lending them money.
Censorship isn't necessary
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Re: Private Equity Firm Seizes Sovereign Nations Naval Vesse

Post by Enki »

Taboo wrote:
Enki wrote:
Taboo wrote:This is older than radio. Gunboat diplomacy, of a sort?
Weak states get their ships seized.
I don't think anyone will seize the USS Enterprise anytime soon. Those damn photon torpedoes, um, I mean CAGs.

Small states should take a cue and start training assassins and drones. Ninjas can fly coach, don't need a frigate. War just got a lot cheaper, much easier for small states to make a disparate impact.
I agree. States are too nice, too corseted nowadays, too willing to play by the rules of civilized behavior. They should realize they're free, and do more killing, looting, pillaging and perhaps even raping, eh Tinker?
I have clearly over-estimated your intelligence. Right now i have a hurricane to deal with but I'll be back to break it down for you in the other thread at some point.
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Post by monster_gardener »

Mr. Perfect wrote:
Demon of Undoing wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:Why are states exempt from the repo man?

Why are corporations exempt from geopolitics?
I'm not sure anyone said they were.

The first nations to break these kinds of contracts will be the first ones to fold. Who will continue lending them money.
Thank you Very Much for your Post, Mr. Perfect.
The first nations to break these kinds of contracts will be the first ones to fold. Who will continue lending them money.
By the Power of Numbskull!

Skeletor Swings a Nasty Sword when he wants a loan.........

Remembering a course on Japanese History though the same applies elsewhere...... Nobles getting in debt to merchants and having the debts cancelled as "Virtuous Government" followed by the Nobles getting into debt again but the interest rate gets higher.......

But you don't say no when the Shogun shows his gun...... ;) :twisted:

Or to the Fed when he says take the loan or get investigated.......... AIUI happened to some of the Banksters in the Bailout......

One solution often seen in the West/Spain was marriage.... the impoverished Lord marries his daughter to the noveauv riche merchant/banker etc..........

Or privileges...... Hey we get to hunt in the woods......... etc.
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Re: Private Equity Firm Seizes Sovereign Nations Naval Vesse

Post by Taboo »

Enki wrote:
Taboo wrote:
Enki wrote:
Taboo wrote:This is older than radio. Gunboat diplomacy, of a sort?
Weak states get their ships seized.
I don't think anyone will seize the USS Enterprise anytime soon. Those damn photon torpedoes, um, I mean CAGs.

Small states should take a cue and start training assassins and drones. Ninjas can fly coach, don't need a frigate. War just got a lot cheaper, much easier for small states to make a disparate impact.
I agree. States are too nice, too corseted nowadays, too willing to play by the rules of civilized behavior. They should realize they're free, and do more killing, looting, pillaging and perhaps even raping, eh Tinker?
I have clearly over-estimated your intelligence. Right now i have a hurricane to deal with but I'll be back to break it down for you in the other thread at some point.
Funny how ever since you realized I am the same ST, your posts have degenerated into nothing but a froth of personal insults with a glazing of condescension. That's what happens when you don't have actual arguments to make. It's ok, I don't care a whit either way. Seems like you're still upset because I made fun of your Avatar fandom a few years back. That was funny.
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Re: Private Equity Firm Seizes Sovereign Nations Naval Vesse

Post by Enki »

Taboo wrote: Funny how ever since you realized I am the same ST, your posts have degenerated into nothing but a froth of personal insults with a glazing of condescension. That's what happens when you don't have actual arguments to make. It's ok, I don't care a whit either way. Seems like you're still upset because I made fun of your Avatar fandom a few years back. That was funny.
He says when I responded to a personal attack. ;)

I actually always liked your posts as ST as Taboo, etc... But on this one you're just coming out swinging with a nasty straw man. So we're going to have to address your errors, just in the appropriate thread, which YOU chose to froth about in threads other than the topical thread.
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Re: Private Equity Firm Seizes Sovereign Nations Naval Vesse

Post by Azrael »

Fernandez should just cut a deal. Maybe she can get the ship back for $5-10 million. It would be cheaper and less dangerous than a military operation.
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Re: Private Equity Firm Seizes Sovereign Nations Naval Vesse

Post by Skin Job »

May I ask a silly question? Why isn't the Ghanan seizure of another sovereign nation's naval vessel considered an act of aggression, even of war?
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Reason doesn't always work with crazy people/killer apes....

Post by monster_gardener »

Azrael wrote:Fernandez should just cut a deal. Maybe she can get the ship back for $5-10 million. It would be cheaper and less dangerous than a military operation.
Thank you VERY Much for your post, Azrael.

That is a very reasonable idea but Fernandez and Singer seem to have already drawn the lines into a battle between good and evil rather than bad stuff happens so let's make a new deal........*

And IMVHO as politician, it may be harder for Fernandez to back down but Singer may be as stubborn.....

And any deal would have include ALL the money owed Singer or this is going to happen again somewhere else....

Does anyone know how much the ship is really worth? I know there is a $20 Million Bond but what is the replacement cost for it.....

And since Argentina can not or will not pay its debts, does it really need a sailing frigate?

Since there are already Argentine sailors on it, IVHO scuttling seems to be to be as simple a military option as possible......

If the Ghanans return the sailors afterwards, no need for escalation and Singer is given tangible proof that it might be better to negotiate if he wants ANY of his money............

I could be wrong.........

*Reminds me of the Falklands-Malvinas dispute, the various island /oil crises in the South China Sea etc.......
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Re: Private Equity Firm Seizes Sovereign Nations Naval Vesse

Post by Ibrahim »

Skin Job wrote:May I ask a silly question? Why isn't the Ghanan seizure of another sovereign nation's naval vessel considered an act of aggression, even of war?
If it was actually put up for collateral then it may not the property of Argentina. Detaining a ship which disputed ownership is correct port procedure.
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