McDonalds and Walmart Striking: The New Union Movement?

This too shall pass.
Simple Minded

Re: McDonalds and Walmart Striking: The New Union Movement?

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote:shitshacks and vege patches is luxury compared to cardboard boxes under bridges and soup kitchens... all those "lazy" people really should look into em ;P

i really dont know how to express all this anymore - it seems so extreme in all directions but their is something missing from the modern west when it comes to those quiet people who really did want to hide away in a stable little job and our modern world is destroying them... they are all in government jobs or unionised corporates on tax payer life support now.. what is the next big thing that creates the export dollars to pay for em.

maybe i just spent too much time with pacific people, who love their shitshacks and the fact that a couple of hours a day in the vege patch is enough work.
they only do capitalism sporadically for beer money :P
You spending time with pacific people (aren't they willing to fight for anything?) ;) , me spending time with grandparents and parents who knew poverty........ we were fortunate...... perhaps those raised in prosperity did not have those blessings?

Hell those raised in prosperity would have persecuted the oppressive parents of yor...

Living within your means has always been timeless wisdom.

That has seemed obvious to me for decades. But during the boom years, everybody thought I was nuts for not joining them in their delusion that finally prosperity was eternal, that we could all live at the expense of someone else, and selling yourself into indetured servitude to the man was a smart thing to do.

They ain't so happy now that the reversion to the mean has started..... silly people.... WTF were they thinking?
Ibrahim
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Re: McDonalds and Walmart Striking: The New Union Movement?

Post by Ibrahim »

noddy wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
noddy wrote:what i meant was why cant housing and food get cheaper instead of wages going up
Workers can only influence their wages. Controlling inflation would be a great trick, but nobody has mastered it yet.


But you're correct in principle. The issue is purchasing power.
well until they fired up the printing presses monetary inflation is only the tiniest part of the increases in the cost of living - the vast magority of it is legislated minimum standards and regulations... look at mr p and his reaction to lavender shacks.

the same middle class left wing that allegedly cares for the poor is also the primary mover behind better housing standards and better car standards.
wink wink, nudge nudge, the police do encomomic stimulus taking old cars off the road.. great left and right wing synergy baby.

try being a poor person in a run down house and in a crap old car - i give you the tip you wont be able to tell which side the people that set the police on you vote for.

oh thats right, you can fix it by making loans easier to get, then poor people can afford million dollar mansions.
I don't really disagree with anything you are saying here, I just don't see what the people on the economic margins (say, the people working several part time retail positions) can do to improve their situation except labor organization and agitative for better wages/conditions/benefits.

The Randian/conservative advice is a) retrain and get an awesome job, stupid and b) you're only working that lavender job in the first place because you're lazy and stupid, alphas work in an office like me. Liberals instead say "I'm sorry you're stupid, maybe you'd like a government-secured loan to retrain and get an awesome job? Or borrow some money for a better house? It's not your fault you're so stupid, we're all equal." I'd take my chances with union thuggery.
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Enki
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Re: McDonalds and Walmart Strikign: The New Union Movement?

Post by Enki »

Simple Minded wrote: Well put Tinker, and I share your compassion. But we are still fighting human nature here. I'll grant you that some corporations may exploit the poor, but so do politicians who claim to want to help them, and consumers who also claim to want to help them.

I recall you outsourcing jobs to India and refusing to hire UAW baby sitters. Ibrahim voting for politicians who promise him tax cuts. The typical Walmart shopper. Warren Buffet & Ted Kennedy demanding that the rich pay more taxes while hiring attorneys and accounting to shield their income/wealth from taxes. Nothing preventing any of us from voluntarily paying more for our services. In the free market, it is often called tipping. Not allowed everywhere I know.
I am not opposed to working with people in other countries to do some work. Likely, in our business, there isn't going to be a lot of work for India. Indians deserve a living wage also. I don't know any baby-sitters from the UAW, though that is sort of meaningless. Supporting people's right to organize and sympathizing with their plight isn't some sort of existential identification with Unions.
Deficit spending on the part of individuals, corporations, and governments thruout the West for decades is a hell of an indicator. We're all on the list.

Fred the consumer in conflict with Fred the producer. Fred the voter in conflict with Fred the taxpayer. Fred the SEIU member in conflict with Fred the unemployed college grad. Fred the $15 an hour minimum wage worker in conflict with Fred seeking an entry level job.
Not necessarily. Henry Ford paid people enough to purchase the product they assembled. I think that's a good way of looking at it.
We are each one of the above at different points in our lives. As I have said many times, the problem is people want square circles and free lunches. We have met the enemy and he is us!!!!!
No, asking to be paid enough to subsist is not 'wanting a free lunch'.
Hell, as we have proven in the "Designing a Cooperative" thread, nothing is cheaper than talk about ideology and vague terms. When it comes times to actually creating a few rules and or guidelines, even the mighty minds on this site become as feeble as congress.....
It's pretty simple to come up with rules for a cooperative.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
Mr. Perfect
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Re: McDonalds and Walmart Strikign: The New Union Movement?

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Enki wrote: Not necessarily. Henry Ford paid people enough to purchase the product they assembled. I think that's a good way of looking at it.
Urban legend.
Indians deserve a living wage also.
In your own words, why do you think they don't get it?
No, asking to be paid enough to subsist is not 'wanting a free lunch'.
Unless your output doesn't match your wage.
It's pretty simple to come up with rules for a cooperative.
Getting people to join them, that's the real problem.
Censorship isn't necessary
Simple Minded

Re: McDonalds and Walmart Strikign: The New Union Movement?

Post by Simple Minded »

Enki wrote: I am not opposed to working with people in other countries to do some work. Likely, in our business, there isn't going to be a lot of work for India. Indians deserve a living wage also. I don't know any baby-sitters from the UAW, though that is sort of meaningless. Supporting people's right to organize and sympathizing with their plight isn't some sort of existential identification with Unions.
Thats why I love you Bro, your mental gymnastics are as complex and contradictory as anyone elses.

I never said you had a existential indentification with unions, in fact your refusal to hire union labor shows the opposite. Like the capitalist, you believe in volutary transactions.

The employee unhappy with corporate management, does have the option of creating a union. And as Wisconsin showed, the employee unhappy with union management, has have the option of disbanding the union. Takes a lot of work, but sometimes it is worth it. Sometimes union liberation looks worse then coporate oppression, sometimes the opposite is true. Depending upon where you are in the cycle, the other side just might offer a better deal.

The part I enjoy is the true believers who profess replacing one with the other is a panacea, kinda like those who think voting out the Dems or Repubs and replacing with the opposite will solve problems. Often sounds a bit like the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. When not happy being "subjugated" by the corporate or union "man," the option should always be available to walk away or negotiate a deal with the "other."

The Union brothers might not see your outsourcing of jobs as paying a "living wage" to someone else (who is less greedy and lives in a lower cost jurisdiction?). They might claim you are trying to avoid paying them a "living wage." Sometimes people are so mean!! They might claim you are a Mitt wannabe or a greedy capitalist. But, hey, as we used to say in NY, screw em if they can't take a joke.

I do salute your good judgement in not hiring someone who, after given the responsibilty of your children's well being, may use the leverage of your children possibly getting hurt to "re-negotiate" a higher wage. In some circles, that used to be known as "protection money." In other circles, it might just be called "fair."

IMSMO,it seems personal cost always determines perspective. It is amusing how similar people are when their own resources and well being are at risk, and only in the costless world of ideology do the differences appear. If it were otherwise, it would really be difficult to get along. Thankfully, people are consistent.
Ammianus
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Re: McDonalds and Walmart Striking: The New Union Movement?

Post by Ammianus »

Simple Minded,

True to your moniker, you've stated something so elementary, obvious, and at the same time so very superficial and tangential. The "human nature" you've wrote about has always existed, 50-60, 100 years ago, if not since time immemorial. Yet in certain periods of time, and as "recent" as 20-30 years ago, that predicament you've laid out was either insignificant if not completely absent. I hope it will began to be dawn to you what is central to that predicament is not human nature but rather the meshwork of economic and political ideologies and policies that girdles it. Whether that meshwork serves restrain, tolerate, or accentuate that peculiar human nature in various ways will be a much more fruitful discussion compared to, say, the same post n^123th time.
Simple Minded

Re: McDonalds and Walmart Striking: The New Union Movement?

Post by Simple Minded »

Ammianus wrote:Simple Minded,

True to your moniker, you've stated something so elementary, obvious, and at the same time so very superficial and tangential. The "human nature" you've wrote about has always existed, 50-60, 100 years ago, if not since time immemorial. Yet in certain periods of time, and as "recent" as 20-30 years ago, that predicament you've laid out was either insignificant if not completely absent. I hope it will began to be dawn to you what is central to that predicament is not human nature but rather the meshwork of economic and political ideologies and policies that girdles it. Whether that meshwork serves restrain, tolerate, or accentuate that peculiar human nature in various ways will be a much more fruitful discussion compared to, say, the same post n^123th time.
Ammianus,

Thank you for the kind words..... if only others would advertise themselves honestly.......

Thats what makes life so entertaining. The New(?) Union Movement? gets replaced by the New, New Union Movement, which gets replaced by the New, New, New Union Movement.....

The battle cry of "This time is different......." eventually becomes...... "nothing new under the sun......."

the pendulum keeps swinging......

Don't be surprised if "....." as recent" as 20-30 years ago, that predicament you've laid out was either insignificant if not completely absent" ....... similar circumstances actually did exist 80-100 years ago.

Our difference of opinion is simply one of what is cause, and what is effect?

Sometimes being a bit cryptic is like the coating on aspirin.....
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monster_gardener
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Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........

Aspirin & Asprin

Post by monster_gardener »

Simple Minded wrote:
Ammianus wrote:Simple Minded,

True to your moniker, you've stated something so elementary, obvious, and at the same time so very superficial and tangential. The "human nature" you've wrote about has always existed, 50-60, 100 years ago, if not since time immemorial. Yet in certain periods of time, and as "recent" as 20-30 years ago, that predicament you've laid out was either insignificant if not completely absent. I hope it will began to be dawn to you what is central to that predicament is not human nature but rather the meshwork of economic and political ideologies and policies that girdles it. Whether that meshwork serves restrain, tolerate, or accentuate that peculiar human nature in various ways will be a much more fruitful discussion compared to, say, the same post n^123th time.
Ammianus,

Thank you for the kind words..... if only others would advertise themselves honestly.......

Thats what makes life so entertaining. The New(?) Union Movement? gets replaced by the New, New Union Movement, which gets replaced by the New, New, New Union Movement.....

The battle cry of "This time is different......." eventually becomes...... "nothing new under the sun......."

the pendulum keeps swinging......

Don't be surprised if "....." as recent" as 20-30 years ago, that predicament you've laid out was either insignificant if not completely absent" ....... similar circumstances actually did exist 80-100 years ago.

Our difference of opinion is simply one of what is cause, and what is effect?

Sometimes being a bit cryptic is like the coating on aspirin.....

Thank you VERY Much for your post, SM ;)
Sometimes being a bit cryptic is like the coating on aspirin....
Which protects your stomach from bleeding but delays the ASPirin* from protecting you from strokes....... :|


*For a good read Asprin ;) try Robert Lynn Asprin

Especially the Myth Series......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Asp ... res_series

IIRC the book with Guido and Nunzio ;) as Principal POV characters has a IMVHO Rather Realistic depiction of what forming a union can involve..........

For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
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