McDonalds and Walmart Striking: The New Union Movement?

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Ammianus
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McDonalds and Walmart Striking: The New Union Movement?

Post by Ammianus »

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/30/nyreg ... wages.html
The biggest wave of job actions in the history of America’s fast-food industry began at 6:30 a.m. on Thursday at a McDonald’s at Madison Avenue and 40th Street, with several dozen protesters chanting: “Hey, hey, what do you say? We demand fair pay.” That demonstration kicked off a day of walkouts and rallies at dozens of Burger King, Taco Bell, Wendy’s, McDonald’s and other fast-food restaurants in New York City, organizers said. They said 14 of the 17 employees scheduled to work the morning shift at the McDonald’s on Madison Avenue did not — part of what they said were 200 fast-food workers who went on strike in the city.

Raymond Lopez, 21, an aspiring actor who has worked at the McDonald’s for two and a half years, showed up at the daybreak protest on his day off. “In this job, having a union would really be a dream come true,” said Mr. Lopez, who said his pay of $8.75 an hour left him feeling undercompensated. “It really is living in poverty.”

Workplace experts said it was by far the largest series of job actions at fast-food restaurants ever — part of an ambitious plan that seeks to unionize workers and increase wages at fast-food restaurants across the city.

The unionization drive, called Fast Food Forward, is sponsored by community and civil rights groups — including New York Communities for Change, United NY.org and the Black Institute — as well as the Service Employees International Union. The campaign has deployed 40 organizers since January to rally fast-food workers behind unionization, saying the goal is to raise wages to $15 an hour.

Rick Cisneros, the franchisee who operates the McDonald’s at 40th and Madison, said: “I value my employees. I welcome an open dialogue while always encouraging them to express any concerns or to provide feedback so I can continue to be an even better employer.”

Several mayoral candidates — including Christine C. Quinn, the City Council speaker; Bill de Blasio, the public advocate; John C. Liu, the comptroller; and William C. Thompson Jr., a former comptroller — were quick to voice support for the workers. As those candidates vie for the Democratic nomination, they are furiously jockeying for union support.

Mary Kay Henry, the service employees’ president, said the fast-food companies could easily afford to pay their employees more. “People who work for the richest corporations in America should be able to afford at least the basic necessities to support their families,” she said.

Labor leaders say they see an uptick in activism among low-wage workers — including last week’s Walmart protests — as workers grow increasingly frustrated about pay stagnating at $8 or $9 an hour, translating into $16,000 or $18,000 a year for a full-time worker.

Pamela Waldron, who has worked at the KFC in Pennsylvania Station for eight years, complained that she earned just $7.75 an hour and was assigned just 20 hours a week, meaning income of about $8,000 a year. She was picketing outside a Burger King on 34th Street, as several dozen workers and their supporters chanted, “How can we survive on seven twenty-five” — $7.25 an hour is the federal and New York State minimum wage.

“I’m protesting for better pay,” Ms. Waldron, 26, said. “I have two kids under 6, and I don’t earn enough to buy food for them.”

Miguel Piedra, a Burger King spokesman, said its restaurants provide entry-level jobs for millions of Americans, train and invest in workers, and “offer compensation and benefits that are consistent with the quick-service restaurant industry.”

Fast Food Forward said it had filed six complaints with the National Labor Relations Board, asserting that various restaurant managers had threatened to fire workers for striking or supporting a union or had improperly interrogated workers about backing the effort.

The protest on Thursday culminated in a rally with hundreds of fast-food workers and their supporters outside the McDonald’s on 42nd Street west of Times Square. They chanted, “Hey, hey, ho, ho, seven-twenty-five has got to go.”

Inside the McDonald’s on Madison Avenue on Thursday morning, a few workers made funny faces as their friends demonstrated outside. A few patrons, quaffing coffee and gobbling sausage McMuffins, eyeballed the protesters with concern through the restaurant windows.

Jocelyn Horner, 35, a graduate student, said she supported the protesters. “If anybody deserves to unionize, it’s fast-food workers,” she said.

A cashier whose name tag read “Milady” said she chose not to participate in the demonstration.

“At least I have a job,” she said.


Walmart's new Labor Union

http://forrespect.org/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/2 ... 77784.html
Walmart has long responded to critics by touting the insatiable consumer demand for its low-priced goods. In a release on Friday morning, the company noted that it had sold 1.3 million televisions, 1.8 million towels and 250,000 bicycles so far during its Black Friday sales. The first wave of protests Thursday evening were negligible both in size and influence, it said.

"Only 26 protests occurred at stores last night and many of them did not include any Walmart associates,” wrote Bill Simon, president and CEO of Walmart U.S., using the company's term for its employees. "We estimate that less than 50 associates participated in the protest nationwide. In fact, this year, roughly the same number of associates missed their scheduled shift as last year."

In another statement released Friday at noon, David Tovar, Walmart's vice president of communications, added that the "number of protests being reported by the United Food and Commercial Workers Union are grossly exaggerated."

OUR Walmart, the worker organization that is coordinating the protests backed by the United Food and Commercial Workers Union, contests Walmart's estimates. Nationwide, there have been more than 1,000 individual actions and strikes so far, which is in line with what OUR Walmart projected, according to Dan Schlademan, director of the union's Making Change at Walmart campaign.

On a conference call Friday, Schlademan said his organization does not yet have a precise count of the number of workers who walked off, as the strikes are ongoing. There have been "hundreds" of workers and "thousands" of supporters so far, he said.

In the Dallas area, the protests were smaller than expected. While OUR Walmart had estimated there would be about 200 people in attendance, roughly 42 people (half of whom were Walmart workers) turned out for Thursday's event outside a Dallas store. Seventy-five people turned out for a demonstration Friday morning at the nearby Lancaster, Texas, store.

Other cities around the country, however, had higher-than-expected turnouts. At the Walmart in Paramount, where The Huffington Post counted 600 people at one point, organizers later said that a total of 1,500 people had shown up. Nine people were arrested for sitting in the street, which had been blocked off for the protesters. Those arrested included three Walmart employees, a father of a worker, a former worker, two clergy members and two other supporters, according to organizers.
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Re: McDonalds and Walmart Strikign: The New Union Movement?

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Looks like new revenue streams for the Democrat Party. Congratulations.
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Enki
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Re: McDonalds and Walmart Strikign: The New Union Movement?

Post by Enki »

Yup, it is.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Re: McDonalds and Walmart Strikign: The New Union Movement?

Post by Enki »

Mr. Perfect wrote:Looks like new revenue streams for the Democrat Party. Congratulations.
Considering the Democrat party out fundraises despite your billionaires willing to spend their fortunes to bid on a President, this must be a very depressing circumstance for you.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Re: McDonalds and Walmart Strikign: The New Union Movement?

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Not really. The goal of the Democrat Party seems to be to destroy minorities and poor people enrich privileged white people with funny munny, and expose America to attacks from it's enemies, which did used to bother me, but now the people being destroyed seem to really like it. It's sort of a Milo Doctrine for the US. The more power the Democrats gain the more they destroy their own.

It is frikkin bizarre and admittedly I have to slap my face in order to reorient myself, but Democracy + Democrats, what can you do about that.
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Re: McDonalds and Walmart Strikign: The New Union Movement?

Post by Simple Minded »

Damn, this is a direct kick in the nuts to the co-operative movement.

Good for online discounters and grocery stores though.

Kinda weird how everything seems like a compromise....
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Re: McDonalds and Walmart Strikign: The New Union Movement?

Post by noddy »

it would be difficult to setup a walmart competitor but a mcdonalds alternative is a no brainer - even the simplest of folk do it every weekend with a bbq.

well, it used to be simple - before we started perfecting society with rules n regulations and this is the area that american freedom rhetoric about asia in general and china in particular is way off the mark - their streets are full of people who setup a hotplate and run their own burger joint (*) and dont give a hoot about mickie dees jobs.

many of them only make a pittance like a mickie dees worker and some of them do really well but to my sense of things the money is spread around more evenly than it is in the modern west.

shame they dont fight for their right to form a coop and compete :P its not the democrats fault for chasing that demographic, they just exploit its mindset and unless some right wingers do the hard yards helping em see the world through those eyes its not going to change.

(*) well, its a wok and noodle joint but the principle is the same.
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Re: McDonalds and Walmart Striking: The New Union Movement?

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy,

We still have the same here. Today I drove by Fat Daddy's Barbeque (two axle trailer hitched to a pickup), and Dave's Dawgs (street cart). As far as I know they are not subject to any regulation that would prohibit anyone from doing the same. Maybe they have to buy a business permit for a couple hundred a year, and as litigation happy as Merikans are these days, they would probably be wise to have some form of insurance (just in case someone accidently puts hot sauce on their BBQ or sticks a hotdog in the wrong body orifice).

What do you mean by the right to form a coop/ Who currently controls that?
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Re: McDonalds and Walmart Strikign: The New Union Movement?

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote: (*) well, its a wok and noodle joint but the principle is the same.
whats a wok? Is that something you throw at a wabbit?
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Re: McDonalds and Walmart Striking: The New Union Movement?

Post by noddy »

We still have the same here. Today I drove by Fat Daddy's Barbeque (two axle trailer hitched to a pickup), and Dave's Dawgs (street cart). As far as I know they are not subject to any regulation that would prohibit anyone from doing the same. Maybe they have to buy a business permit for a couple hundred a year, and as litigation happy as Merikans are these days, they would probably be wise to have some form of insurance (just in case someone accidently puts hot sauce on their BBQ or sticks a hotdog in the wrong body orifice).
you could add dozens of bylaws to the australian one.. from food prep licenses and space for tables and fire extinguishers to anti entrepeneur tax laws that make you pay upfront to... sigh... i cant go on... ive been digging into this lately, food places and other "small luxuries" go up in bad times and i was prepping myself for another industry change which im suspecting will be happening sooner rather than later.
What do you mean by the right to form a coop/ Who currently controls that?
i wuz being facetious.
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Re: McDonalds and Walmart Striking: The New Union Movement?

Post by Simple Minded »

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

From what I remember of my UAW experience, unions have more to doing with getting a little more $ for less effort for their own people and keeping the non members out of the market place at the expense of the customers, than many people seem to be aware.

Don't remember the attitude of cooperation being real high on the minds of any UAW members on any tier. Sandbagging, dragging one's feet, passive resistance, and malicious compliance seemed to be the favored tactics. When those didn't work, there was always sabotage, threats, and physical violence.

Kinda like Animal Farm, some animals are more equal than other animals. Good for those who get in first, at least for a few years anyway.

Add to the fact that union management often oppresses their members more than the previous managers, and you can see why when given the choice, the union members in WI left the unions in droves. Voluntary transactions..........ah, no, sorry, thats against the law!

I would expect a short term sense of victory, better pay and benefits for the initial union members, higher costs for the 1% who shop at Walmart, less entry level jobs, and slightly higher unemployment overall, more people buying online, brown bagging their lunches, and increased automation in the fast food industry.

Not all good, nor all bad. Just depends upon which varible one chooses to focus upon, and what you are buying or selling.
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Re: McDonalds and Walmart Striking: The New Union Movement?

Post by Typhoon »

People form unions when the believe that only collective action will give them better representation in negotiation.

Nothing to do with Republicrats or Demopublicans.

As unions consist of people, they evolve, as do all human organizations, as the opportunists rise to the top.

In the case of the US auto industry, short sighted unions and more so short sighted management were a disaster.

It's also probably a truism that as societies evolve they go from little or no regulation to being over regulated.

The guy who sets up his noodle stall on a street in Asia may have other regulations to observe and taxes to pay - to the gangsters for protection from the gangsters.
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Re: McDonalds and Walmart Striking: The New Union Movement?

Post by noddy »

Typhoon wrote:It's also probably a truism that as societies evolve they go from little or no regulation to being over regulated.
yeh, the magic middle is but a fleeting moment which is highly dependent on personal preference.
Typhoon wrote:The guy who sets up his noodle stall on a street in Asia may have other regulations to observe and taxes to pay - to the gangsters for protection from the gangsters.
true enough, depends on how blurry the line between local mafia and local government is - balance of powers is best i spose heh.
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Re: McDonalds and Walmart Striking: The New Union Movement?

Post by noddy »

it just occured to me why i always run screaming from any unionised place, its always been an instinctual thing for me.

nothing todo with unions being bad, its that they are the sympton of a real problem which is the breakdown in adult relationships between company and staff.

dont really care if its a management culture problem or a worker culture problem all i know is that its a culture problem and id rather be elsewhere.
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Re: McDonalds and Walmart Striking: The New Union Movement?

Post by Mr. Perfect »

The only union I was in screwed it's people more than any corporation I had anything to do with.

There was a strike just after i left, and the union contract they won was for more employees (dues payers) and not higher wages.

Unions are entities that respond to incentives like everyone else.
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Mr. Perfect
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Re: McDonalds and Walmart Striking: The New Union Movement?

Post by Mr. Perfect »

noddy wrote: nothing todo with unions being bad, its that they are the sympton of a real problem which is the breakdown in adult relationships between company and staff.
Yeah.
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Re: McDonalds and Walmart Striking: The New Union Movement?

Post by Ibrahim »

Unions have declined in importance in most of the developed world as labor laws - sensibly written and diligently enforced - guaranteed most of the protections that the labor movement rose to address. However employers, and mostly large corporations than retain legal teams to oversee this process, have found more ways to circumvent labor laws and reduce the quality of life for employees as much as possible. This is, of course, combined with a concerted political lobbying effort to prevent labor laws from correcting the abuses.

The industries most effected by this are the low-skill, high-turnover jobs, such as those as chain retailers and fast food restaurants, since the employees are more expendable. You can't treat skilled, in-demand labor this way. So in the US labor market unionization is a sensible alternative for these people. However, I do think that the nature of these jobs (high turnover, large numbers of younger workers, large numbers of undocumented immigrant workers) will make unionization difficult. It would be a good place for activists to devote more of their time/energy.
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Re: McDonalds and Walmart Striking: The New Union Movement?

Post by Mr. Perfect »

None of that is true in reality.

In healthy companies in health times no one really even references "labor laws", a general standard of treatment gets followed by the company to keep the boat from rocking.

During rough times employees accept a lower standard of treatment if it shows up to keep their jobs.

Actually enforcing any of that stuff is next to impossible, with exceptions.

The union job I had the reps would come around on occasion and make complaints, employees wanted nothing to do with it and everyone forgot about them once they were gone.

It's all $#!Tsandwich time, the government has done everything it can think of to destroy job growth and so everyone is fighting over crumbs. You get what you deserve often in life.
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Re: McDonalds and Walmart Striking: The New Union Movement?

Post by Simple Minded »

Typhoon wrote:People form unions when the believe that only collective action will give them better representation in negotiation.

Nothing to do with Republicrats or Demopublicans.

As unions consist of people, they evolve, as do all human organizations, as the opportunists rise to the top.

In the case of the US auto industry, short sighted unions and more so short sighted management were a disaster.

It's also probably a truism that as societies evolve they go from little or no regulation to being over regulated.

The guy who sets up his noodle stall on a street in Asia may have other regulations to observe and taxes to pay - to the gangsters for protection from the gangsters.
Nice summary Typhoon.

Always fascinates me to see how short sighted those humans are.

The enemy of Fred the $10 an hour Walmart worker is not the evil Walmart management. Its Fred's wife, son, and brother in law, and even Fred himself, all of whom when they go shopping are looking for the best deal.

Fred wants to make $20 an hour, just like the ditch digger wants to be paid the same as the brain surgeon.

Fred sets up an appointment to discuss his plan with his supervisor. The supervisor points out that "If I run an ad in the paper for your job at $8 an hour, I'll bet I get 25 people that will apply. What are the odds that one of those $8 an hour employees will not be smarter, more qualified, and willing to work harder while complaining less than you?"

The primal fear of "the stranger" sets in..... and Fred gets demoralized and leaves his supervisor's office thinking "Man, people really suck!"

During the OWS protests, I always wondered if today would be the day that, either the SEIU member making $X an hour (who desired more freedom from competition), and or the unemployed college graduate OWS protester (who just wanted an oppportunity to compete) marching along him , hungry for a $0.7X an hour job was going to wake up and realize that the guy next to them was their real ideological/economic foe.

Would have made for some great TV.

How to keep the employee/corporation in NC with lower overhead costs from undercutting the employee/corporation in NY?
Or US/Europe, or US/India, or India/China?

Damn those selfish bastards who are always fouling up my grand plan!!!

Why don't THEY cooperate? Er, uh, cause it's not in their self interests to do so.
Last edited by Simple Minded on Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: McDonalds and Walmart Striking: The New Union Movement?

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote:it just occured to me why i always run screaming from any unionised place, its always been an instinctual thing for me.

nothing todo with unions being bad, its that they are the sympton of a real problem which is the breakdown in adult relationships between company and staff.

dont really care if its a management culture problem or a worker culture problem all i know is that its a culture problem and id rather be elsewhere.
You should have seen me in 1983 at GM. Naive 23 year old farm boy discussing the concept of personal responsibility with my UAW brothers. Talk about a wake up call!!! Up to that point in life, I had no idea that adults could be so immature, self-destructive, or counter-productive. I was shocked!!!!

One on one, they were fine, it fact they were all responsible adults, most were old enough to be my parents. In fact, the parents often stated that they did not want their kids to belong (Freudian typo, maybe that word should have been "join") to the UAW for the reasons you mentioned.

But if you brought up the subject of personal responsibility at a table with more than one of them present, it was instant brain shut down and revert to herd behavior due to peer pressure. Kinda like when you take one Baptist fishing, he'll drink all your beer, but if you take two Baptists fishing, neither one will drink a drop....

I think it was only my youth and the challenge of converting me, that prevented them from taking me as a real threat and taking me out back for an attitude tune up.

Seems the central planners would rather herd sheep than cats....

I would not be surprised to learn that some of the UAW's most generous sponsors during the last few decades have been Toyota, Honda, Nissa, Volvo, BMW, etc.
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Bosses Vs. Unions...Balance of Terror Allowing a Better Life

Post by monster_gardener »

Simple Minded wrote:
Typhoon wrote:People form unions when the believe that only collective action will give them better representation in negotiation.

Nothing to do with Republicrats or Demopublicans.

As unions consist of people, they evolve, as do all human organizations, as the opportunists rise to the top.

In the case of the US auto industry, short sighted unions and more so short sighted management were a disaster.

It's also probably a truism that as societies evolve they go from little or no regulation to being over regulated.

The guy who sets up his noodle stall on a street in Asia may have other regulations to observe and taxes to pay - to the gangsters for protection from the gangsters.
Nice summary Typhoon.

Always fascinates me to see how short sighted those humans are.

The enemy of Fred the $10 an hour Walmart worker is not the evil Walmart management. Its Fred's wife, son, and brother in law, and even Fred himself, all of whom when they go shopping are looking for the best deal.

Fred wants to make $20 an hour, just like the ditch digger wants to be paid the same as the brain surgeon.

Fred sets up an appointment to discuss his plan with his supervisor. The supervisor points out that "If I run an ad in the paper for your job at $8 an hour, I'll bet I get 25 people that will apply. What are the odds that one of those $8 an hour employees will not be smarter, more qualified, and willing to work harder while complaining less than you?"

The primal fear of "the stranger" sets in..... and Fred gets demoralized and leaves his supervisor's office thinking "Man, people really suck!"

During the OWS protests, I always wondered if today would be the day that, either the SEIU member making $50 an hour (who desired more freedom from competition), and or the unemployed college graduate OWS protester (who just wanted an oppportunity to compete) marching along him , hungry for a $20 an hour job was going to wake up and realize that the guy next to them was their real ideological/economic foe.

Would have made for some great TV.

How to keep the employee/corporation in NC with lower overhead costs from undercutting the employee/corporation in NY?
Or Europe/US, or US/India, or India/China?

Damn those selfish bastards who are always fouling up my grand plan!!! Why don't THEY cooperate?
Thank you Very Much for your post, Simple Minded.

Good post!

But Unions even & especially Soviet Unions :twisted: can also play an important role in the Ecology of the Economy........

Even and Especially for Workers Who don't belong to an Onion ;) oops I mean Union........

The Threat of Unions and especially the Dreaded Bolshevik Communist Soviet Union IMVHO was a Major Factor in making the Officer/Boss Caste Chaos Monkeys Share Some of the Prize Money with those of Uz Down in the Black Gang of the Ship's Engine Room Doing Dirty Jobs ;) to Rowe ;) :lol: the Boat ;) forward..........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Rowe#Trade_activism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_Jobs

Even though they hated it, the Boss Monkeys preferred to contract labor ;) with a Meany ;) Chaos Monkey like George ;) of the Jungle's Ape Pal :lol: to having The Toiling Trolls go Full Blown Blow Up Bosses Bolshevik....... :twisted:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Meany

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_of_ ... characters

That ended When Ronald Reagan the Were Wolf Republican Hero betrayed the PATCO Air Traffic Controllers who had foolishly supported Reagan over Peanut Brained Demi-Rat ;) Jimmy Carter and Sunk the Soviet Union by Supporting the Solidarity Union :shock: in Poland........ Weird World Isn't It.........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PATCO_strike

The Boss Chaos Monkeys were relieved of the Fear That The Toiling Trolls of Uz would kill them and EVEN WORSE ;) :twisted: take their property.........

It inspired the Boss Monkeys to stop sharing the Prize Money with the Trolls and indulge their Evil Randian Fantasies of a Flat Globalized World Where they could reduce Workers to the starvation wages of BanglaDesh & China before Replacing them With Robots :twisted: :evil:

Since Reagan use his Ray Gun :twisted: on PATCO and the Soviet Union was Sunk, Wages have Stagnated for the Workers of Uz.... While the Boss Were-Rats and Were Wolves of Wall Street ;) and Washington High BureaucRATs getting Richer and Richer.......

Yes The Stinky Rotten Soviet Onion ;) oops I mean Union was bad for the East Euros..... But IMVHO it helped Uz Workers indirectly without intending to just Mephistopheles is reputed to do .....

Law of the Conservation of Evil ;) :twisted: :evil: :roll:

Guess it was a best a meta-stable situation...... We came dam close to blowing each other up several times....... But we probably will soon have if we don't already MADhi and other Mad Muslims to play Nuclear Roulette :twisted: with instead of usually Relatively Rational Russians........

We so need to get off of this crazy planet........

The thing that we Egotistical Chaos Monkeys & Pigs ;) & Lizards ;) need to remember is that pretty near all of us including especially me are Depraved Sinful Killer Apes who tend to Evil whether we are Bossman Officers or BureaucRATS or Trolls Down in the Black Gang...... We should not trust Ourselves Or Our Heros or Our Enemies......

Often the Best Practical Situation that can be found is when Evils Oppose Each Other...... Uz vs. the Soviets....... Commies vs. Catholic Church in Poland etc....

This is a reason I suggest Multiple National Anti-Meteor Shield Programs in Space.....
Having Just One is better than the alternative in an emergency but Would be an Invitation to Tyranny Long Term.....
G_d probably ;) knew what He was doing when He shut down the First Space Program at Babel........ :twisted:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel
Last edited by monster_gardener on Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:42 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: McDonalds and Walmart Striking: The New Union Movement?

Post by Typhoon »

Simple Minded wrote: . . .

Fred wants to make $20 an hour, just like the ditch digger wants to be paid the same as the brain surgeon.

, , ,
A cardiac surgeon takes his car into the shop for repairs.

A few days latter he returns to pick it up and the following discussion ensues:

Mechanic: "We had to strip it down and replace the valves. It's back to together and running like new.
Say, you do the same with the heart, don't you? Yet you charge a lot more than me."

Cardiac surgeon: "I see you point. However, have you ever tried to do the same with the engine running?"
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Re: McDonalds and Walmart Striking: The New Union Movement?

Post by Simple Minded »

MG,

Thanks for the post and kind words.

Several times during my earlier years, I wondered why the US seemed to go out of its way to actually support/ignore the USSR rather than confront the USSR.

I eventually came to the conclusion, just like my UAW brothers, that if your competition is screwed up EVEN MORE than you are, you should do what ever is convenient to assist them in maintaining their status quo. IE: the US feared a capitalist USSR more than a communist USSR.

Meanwhile, poor Fred has so many enemies, his employer, his customers, and everyone who is willing and able to do his job for the same pay or less. :x Could Fred have been right? Do people really suck? :?

Should we not outlaw people who suck? Sounds like a potential Nobel prize in eugenics is just waiting to be won....

Seems THEY only want to cooperate on terms that are in THEIR self interest, not OUR self interest.....

Maybe that why WE hate THEM so much.... ;)
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Post by monster_gardener »

Simple Minded wrote:MG,

Thanks for the post and kind words.

Several times during my earlier years, I wondered why the US seemed to go out of its way to actually support/ignore the USSR rather than confront the USSR.

I eventually came to the conclusion, just like my UAW brothers, that if your competition is screwed up EVEN MORE than you are, you should do what ever is convenient to assist them in maintaining their status quo. IE: the US feared a capitalist USSR more than a communist USSR.

Meanwhile, poor Fred has so many enemies, his employer, his customers, and everyone who is willing and able to do his job for the same pay or less. :x Could Fred have been right? Do people really suck? :?

Should we not outlaw people who suck? Sounds like a potential Nobel prize in eugenics is just waiting to be won....

Seems THEY only want to cooperate on terms that are in THEIR self interest, not OUR self interest.....

Maybe that why WE hate THEM so much.... ;)
Thank you VERY MUCH for your Reply, Simple Minded.
IE: the US feared a capitalist USSR more than a communist USSR.
You may be right........

Perhaps there may have a been a few Officers on the political level who were that farsighted.......

But on the Commercial level, the Empresario/Boss Man Monkeys dreamed for centuries of selling kerosene lanterns and kerosene to China..........

Probably not even considering the current scenario.........
Do people really suck? :?
We are born depraved sinful egotistical Chaos Monkey Killer Apes, Pigs & Crocs ;) but G_d seems to love us anyway......

Maybe because for all that we can sometimes become Saints & Tzaddiks with His Help........

Sometimes I imagine that G_d's relationship to us may resemble my relationship to my cat daughters.....

Cats are on a small scale Much More Murderous to each other than Human Chaos Monkeys.

My Cat Daughters are much improved over their feral kin but it would be dangerous for me to shrink down to their size or smaller.....

Might be eviscerated instead of crucified...... :shock:

I still love them and they can be quite affectionate especially the hand raised one........
Seems THEY only want to cooperate on terms that are in THEIR self interest, not OUR self interest.....
Not always.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiune_Sugihara

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rabe

There are a few, maybe as few as 36, who perhaps save the rest of us.........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzadik#The ... led_Tzadik

As few as 10 would have saved Sodom & Gomorrah........

Keep G_d from Deciding to start over with Dogs & Dolphins..........
Last edited by monster_gardener on Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
Simple Minded

Re: McDonalds and Walmart Striking: The New Union Movement?

Post by Simple Minded »

MG,

Thanks for the reply and kind words, but I think you are missing my humor.

Most of the world seems to think selfish is a word with negative connotations. I don't. I think selfishness is one of man's most positive traits. Of course, like any other human trait, it can be channeled for any reason, either positive and constructive, or negative and destructive.

Parents go to great trouble for their children for selfish reasons. They love their children, and their children bring them a very personal, selfish, sense of pleasure.

Lots of people donate to charity and strangers for selfish reasons. Donating to the less fortunate makes one feel good (thank God for that part of our BIOS). Helping a stranger feels good. Or perhaps they donate to worthy causes because the donor (selfishly) wants to live in a better world.

I would bet that 90%+ of those who help others in need, do so, not out of a sense of duty, but out of a sense of self-fullment. Damn, theres that word again. :evil:

Perhaps the simplest measure may be the happiness of the individual. Unhappy people are selfish in a negative, destructive manner, while happy people seem to selfish in positive, constructive manner. Broad terms with imprecise meanings to be sure.

I think we need to develop a smiley that denotes "Hey, I'm not using this word in the same way that many of you are going to read it."

Of course, using it after every third word may defeat the origninal intent. ;)
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