McDonalds and Walmart Striking: The New Union Movement?

[monster_gardener]

MG,

Thanks for the reply and kind words, but I think you are missing my humor.

Most of the world seems to think selfish is a word with negative connotations. I don't. I think selfishness is one of man's most positive traits. Of course, like any other human trait, it can be channeled for any reason, either positive and constructive, or negative and destructive.

Parents go to great trouble for their children for selfish reasons. They love their children, and their children bring them a very personal, selfish, sense of pleasure.

Lots of people donate to charity and strangers for selfish reasons. Donating to the less fortunate makes one feel good (thank God for that part of our BIOS). Helping a stranger feels good. Or perhaps they donate to worthy causes because the donor (selfishly) wants to live in a better world.

I would bet that 90%+ of those who help others in need, do so, not out of a sense of duty, but out of a sense of self-fullment. Damn, theres that word again.

Perhaps the simplest measure may be the happiness of the individual. Unhappy people are selfish in a negative, destructive manner, while happy people seem to selfish in positive, constructive manner. Broad terms with imprecise meanings to be sure.

I think we need to develop a smiley that denotes "Hey, I'm not using this word in the same way that many of you are going to read it."

Of course, using it after every third word may defeat the origninal intent.

Thank you VERY Much for your Reply, Simple Minded.

but I think you are missing my humor.

Most of the world seems to think selfish is a word with negative connotations. I don't. I think selfishness is one of man's most positive traits.

Yes. You are correct. I was missing that. Thank you for the explanation. It helps.

Donating to the less fortunate makes one feel good

Not always...... Sometimes my very depraved nature makes me feel stupid when I do that

As far as selfishness being good.............

It is the way most of us INCLUDING Me are.......

To a sometimes greater or lesser degree......

And systems that take it into consideration and channel it like capitalism tries to do are IMVHO usually better than systems like atheistic socialisms that assume or try to make people be good without G_d/Saints etc....

IMVHO Socialism can work with some difficulty G_d as in Monasteries, Convents and Hutterites........

But not everyone wants to live like they do.........

Also in cases where there are pressing external enemies and simple survival is a much important than monetary gain......

not out of a sense of duty,

Duty is VERY important when you don't feel like doing it but it needs to be done......

Another important point is that often better a corrupt criminal overlord whose passion may eventually be sated than a religious/political fanatic control freak overlord determined to make you be "good" for your own good....*

ADDENDUM:

*Not an original thought of mine....

But Jesus seems to endorse it: With a few exceptions (the Rich Young Ruler) He seems to like the sinners more than the good/meticulously observant Jews.....

Which at first glance is REALLY Weird because through so much of the OT/Tanakh, the emphasis is OBEY!

Yes I know some of the Prophets talk otherwise but OBEY is IMVHO largely the emphasis of the History Books.......

2. Per the Humor angle........

Is this the Fred who works at Walmart.......



3.

I think we need to develop a smiley that denotes "Hey, I'm not using this word in the same way that many of you are going to read it."

Of course, using it after every third word may defeat the origninal intent.

I may resemble that remark......

[Enki]

Damn, this is a direct kick in the nuts to the co-operative movement.

Good for online discounters and grocery stores though.

Kinda weird how everything seems like a compromise....

This has no impact on the cooperative movement whatsoever.

[Enki]

Nice summary Typhoon.

Always fascinates me to see how short sighted those humans are.

The enemy of Fred the $10 an hour Walmart worker is not the evil Walmart management. Its Fred's wife, son, and brother in law, and even Fred himself, all of whom when they go shopping are looking for the best deal.

Fred wants to make $20 an hour, just like the ditch digger wants to be paid the same as the brain surgeon.

Nonsense. Wal Mart can totally afford to pay its workers a living wage. The amount of profit just the Walton kids get yearly demonstrates just how feasible it would be. They could reduce the profits for just four people only a little and pay every employee a higher hourly.

[Mr. Perfect]

How much is a living wage.

[Simple Minded]

Damn, this is a direct kick in the nuts to the co-operative movement.

Good for online discounters and grocery stores though.

Kinda weird how everything seems like a compromise....

This has no impact on the cooperative movement whatsoever.

Tinker, you always make me smile.

This was intended as a bit of humor in the form of anyone who has dealt with unions, has a real tough time thinking of union members as anything resembling cooperative.... The very concept of I can deliberately work at less than my capacity, or deliberately sabotage your profits, with the intended result of forcing you to pay me more..... well, I guess everyone has a different definition of the word cooperative......

[Simple Minded]

Nice summary Typhoon.

Always fascinates me to see how short sighted those humans are.

The enemy of Fred the $10 an hour Walmart worker is not the evil Walmart management. Its Fred's wife, son, and brother in law, and even Fred himself, all of whom when they go shopping are looking for the best deal.

Fred wants to make $20 an hour, just like the ditch digger wants to be paid the same as the brain surgeon.

Nonsense. Wal Mart can totally afford to pay its workers a living wage. The amount of profit just the Walton kids get yearly demonstrates just how feasible it would be. They could reduce the profits for just four people only a little and pay every employee a higher hourly.

Very true. I'm sure if the Waltons never earned another penny, they would be fine.

But would that be fair to all those people out there who will happily do Fred's job for less than $10 an hour?

If only people were not both producers and consumers, it would be so much simpler.

[noddy]

Nice summary Typhoon.

Always fascinates me to see how short sighted those humans are.

The enemy of Fred the $10 an hour Walmart worker is not the evil Walmart management. Its Fred's wife, son, and brother in law, and even Fred himself, all of whom when they go shopping are looking for the best deal.

Fred wants to make $20 an hour, just like the ditch digger wants to be paid the same as the brain surgeon.

Nonsense. Wal Mart can totally afford to pay its workers a living wage. The amount of profit just the Walton kids get yearly demonstrates just how feasible it would be. They could reduce the profits for just four people only a little and pay every employee a higher hourly.

Very true. I'm sure if the Waltons never earned another penny, they would be fine.

But would that be fair to all those people out there who will happily do Fred's job for less than $10 an hour?

If only people were not both producers and consumers, it would be so much simpler.

queue shitshack dissonance for me... queue ninja loans dissonance.. bring on the disssonance, wallow in the dissonance, taste the dissonance.. its good.. nom nom nom dissonance, it sustains.

is the problem that $10 an hour cant buy house and food ? or that house and food cost more than $10 an hour can afford ?

[Simple Minded]

queue shitshack dissonance for me... queue ninja loans dissonance.. bring on the disssonance, wallow in the dissonance, taste the dissonance.. its good.. nom nom nom dissonance, it sustains.

is the problem that $10 an hour cant buy house and food ? or that house and food cost more than $10 an hour can afford ?

Wow, a discussion of the problem.... there are so many perspectives...... where to start? What the problem is, I have no idea, it depends on who the person is.

$10 an hour is not much, a great entry level wage, but not a good long term wage at all. Problem is, what if you are a person, whom society does not value at more than $10 an hour. I don't mean the evil corporations who pay $10 an hour, I mean all the people who will do your job for less than $10 an hour.

And all those selfish consumers who do not want to pay the extra money for the "Made in the USA" or "Made by Union Labor" labels...

Quite a conundrum, Fred the producer wants to be paid more, Fred the consumer does not want to pay Fred the producer more, Fred the voter wants legislation that drives up the cost of doing business locally, which when Fred the consumer wants to pay less, motivates Fred's employer to move the business to a lower cost jurisdiction.

You see it all the time in the US on a smaller scale. People fleeing the high cost of living in jurisdiction X move to a lower cost of living jurisdiction Y. Then they complain about lack of services, and start voting for more services which drives up the cost of doing business in jurisdiction Y....

As Typhoon noted earlier: "It's also probably a truism that as societies evolve they go from little or no regulation to being over regulated."

Unregulated" and "unfair" can become "over regulated" and "un-competitive" in just a few years. Fascinating to see politicians, corporations, unions, producers, and consumers all blaming the other when very few people live on only one side of the fence for more than a few hours, days, weeks.....

When the pie is expanding, no one complains, when the pie is shrinking, the complaints start. Add in social mood, which plays a large part in determining what is good, bad, fair, and unfair.....

[Enki]

Tinker, you always make me smile.

This was intended as a bit of humor in the form of anyone who has dealt with unions, has a real tough time thinking of union members as anything resembling cooperative.... The very concept of I can deliberately work at less than my capacity, or deliberately sabotage your profits, with the intended result of forcing you to pay me more..... well, I guess everyone has a different definition of the word cooperative......

I think there is an equitable mean that two sides knowing each other's needs and caring about their well-being that would be mutually beneficial to all parties and result in optimal outcomes for all.

It's an adversarial system, it is setup that way, the entire legal system is adversarial, the economy is adversarial. We are setup as adversaries from the jump. We get dumped into Kindergarten then once that's over it's time to compete, always compete for the rest of your life, if you do not you will be DOOMED, DOOOOMED, DOOOOOOOOMED!!!

But hey, there's always McDonald's. Except McDonald's doesn't pay enough to live on. Hmm... Adversarial. What came first; the disgruntled worker or the the min/maxing CEO who minned their wages while maxing his salary?

I make it a point to try to average the lowest paid people whose employment is contingent upon my patronage, i.e. cab drivers, baby-sitters, waitresses and the like, at least $ 15 an hour. $ 15 isn't a lot, but it's something. Less than that and it is hard to make end's meet. That is definitely wage slavery. McDonald's day shift and the closing shift at Arby's every week day in and day out. No real way to get out of that because you never get past paying your basic expenses. The living wage is not really something we negotiate because it is named for what it is, a LIVING wage. Without it you stop living. It is immoral to exploit the desperation of people for resources by paying them so little that they cannot afford to pay rent anywhere near the jurisdiction where they work.

Does class warfare come from the bottom up or the top down? Just because someone has wealth and privilege does that mean that they DESERVE that wealth and privilege? I am a pragmatist. Society exists to feed, clothe, house, and care for human beings. There is nothing else. Whatever model is best to achieve those ends is the model that I think is best. That is its moral tenet. And if you are so blessed to receive grace's bounty and hoard it, and use it to exploit people, then that's no good. A living wage is a line that can be demarcated clearly by averaging the cost of living in the jurisdiction in which the worker resides. Lets face it, your McDonald's worker is not going to live in Manhattan unless he started in Manhattan at this point, but in most jurisdictions in this country, you can get by on $ 15 an hour and do pretty well.

[Ibrahim]

queue shitshack dissonance for me... queue ninja loans dissonance.. bring on the disssonance, wallow in the dissonance, taste the dissonance.. its good.. nom nom nom dissonance, it sustains.

is the problem that $10 an hour cant buy house and food ? or that house and food cost more than $10 an hour can afford ?

I don't know if it is A Problem in the cosmic sense, but it certainly makes sense for worker who cannot maintain themselves in food and shelter to agitate for higher wages, and it probably benefits employers to pay them one (Henry Ford blah blah blah).

The two stumbling blocks are:

1. What if your employer is an enormous multinational with titular head offices in Luxembourg or Grand Cayman and doesn't care what the community, or even country, that there workers live in looks like.

2. Other "conservatives" who don't personally have a horse in the race, but who habitually oppose labor in all confrontations, and who also support legislation that makes things worse for workers because it doesn't effect them personally and conforms to some vague Randian ideology.


Thus increasingly militant labor organization. You've got one of the few jobs that can't be outsourced, your employer doesn't care about you, and half your fellow citizens want to see you lose like you were a rival football team, so you have to organize and maybe crack heads. Union thuggery, ho!

[noddy]

what i meant was why cant housing and food get cheaper instead of wages going up... their is a FIRE economy religion meme thang going on here, its in the subtleties.

the tip being that its all relative.. i could happily live on $1 an hr if houses only cost a grand.

[Ibrahim]

what i meant was why cant housing and food get cheaper instead of wages going up

Workers can only influence their wages. Controlling inflation would be a great trick, but nobody has mastered it yet.


But you're correct in principle. The issue is purchasing power.

[noddy]

what i meant was why cant housing and food get cheaper instead of wages going up

Workers can only influence their wages. Controlling inflation would be a great trick, but nobody has mastered it yet.


But you're correct in principle. The issue is purchasing power.

well until they fired up the printing presses monetary inflation is only the tiniest part of the increases in the cost of living - the vast magority of it is legislated minimum standards and regulations... look at mr p and his reaction to lavender shacks.

the same middle class left wing that allegedly cares for the poor is also the primary mover behind better housing standards and better car standards.
wink wink, nudge nudge, the police do encomomic stimulus taking old cars off the road.. great left and right wing synergy baby.

try being a poor person in a run down house and in a crap old car - i give you the tip you wont be able to tell which side the people that set the police on you vote for.

oh thats right, you can fix it by making loans easier to get, then poor people can afford million dollar mansions.

[Mr. Perfect]

Economic ignorance never fails to astound me. Invest in pine boxes.

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

The genius of the early modern period for ordinary people was establishing the possibilities for one to have a stable and prosperous life. Gaining an education, finding a job, buying a home and raising a stake in life could be treated as problems that could be essentially solved once and then over. People would then devote their lives to other pursuits; self-improvement, social and fraternal organisations, auxiliaries to local schools and church. They could have hobbies, travel and leisure. They could devote themselves to family and the community and the early union movement was instrumental in this.......

Since the beginning of this century if you've ever had the fortune of visiting your local job training centre; you are told to expect any number of employments, any number of relocations and to be constantly on the prowl for the next 'employment opportunity' - because any employment is current until it's not and you are neither trained nor qualified for your next position. You are to be constantly pestering others and yourself, called 'networking', for your next employment opportunity because to want to be unbothered and content with what you've got is the kiss of death. This is the new normal for the middling workforce in the global economy but it's not the future. The constant vigilance and the constant stir to make the next contact and to do what's required to keep a cheque coming is something similar to what you might expect in a tribal situation in a stone age jungle. It's savagery.....

The big dinosaur unions know this in their slow-witted badger way of that One Big Thing, and that's why they are fighting the business sector tooth and nail. Do you hear about the Shriners anymore, don't even ask about the Odd Fellows? And where are the bowling leagues and garden clubs? Doesn't it seem that the communities are going anorexic and thinning out. Not so many people are getting married and having children anymore and those that do don't look past the door anymore except to immediate family (heh......) and social service. Goes back to people not wanting to live like nomads or janissaries, that was the net improvement of industrialism and in consequense people built the wonderful communities and social situations that made life in America so blessed......

I don't write this much. Anything in there? Maybe near lifetime employment isn't possible but can we say it's a good thing?.........

[Mr. Perfect]

Just getcha a $#!tshack and a ride to the foodbank a couple times a week, it's the great new Democrat future.

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

But I'm saving up my hard currency...... just in case.....'>........

[noddy]

+1 miss ff.

i even get to quite moiself from an udder thread in confirmation.

its like a step backwards in the civilisation scale, we are kind of nomadic hunter gatherers again ... feasts and famines and being prepared to move with the economic weather.

buts.....

that little period of stability when the boomers decided the world was solved... just how many of the preconditions for that are still around, its beyond death of christianity and other spengler board motifs, its also boring stuff like globalisation and innovation and the fact that industry with large employment aint coming back.

the original shitshack song...

Code: Select all

I walked 47 miles of barbed wire,
Used a cobra snake for a neck tie.
Got a brand new house on the roadside,
Made out of rattlesnake hide.
I got a brand new chimney made on top,
Made out of human skulls.
Now come on darling let's take a little walk, tell me,
Who do you love,
Who do you love, Who do you love, Who do you love.

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

Kewl noddy, thanks for the collaboration.......

I accept that the old jobs ain't coming back, but people can still reflect and consider what they call the good and not go mindlessly into the dark void of neo-neanderthal desperation and chaos. Even with the new blackberry, it ain't all that great......'>.......

yeah, I like that song.........

[noddy]

shitshacks and vege patches is luxury compared to cardboard boxes under bridges and soup kitchens... all those "lazy" people really should look into em ;P

i really dont know how to express all this anymore - it seems so extreme in all directions but their is something missing from the modern west when it comes to those quiet people who really did want to hide away in a stable little job and our modern world is destroying them... they are all in government jobs or unionised corporates on tax payer life support now.. what is the next big thing that creates the export dollars to pay for em.

maybe i just spent too much time with pacific people, who love their shitshacks and the fact that a couple of hours a day in the vege patch is enough work.
they only do capitalism sporadically for beer money

[Mr. Perfect]

nods, we might be talking past each other, if a man wants his $#!Tshack I will salute him, what I condemn is an economy that only allows for $#!Tshacks anymore. The Democrats have chosen to eliminate any other option than a $#!Thsack and for that I condemn them. There is no reason to condemn a generation, or a permanent $#!tshack future.

But the people have chosen $#!tshacks politically, which on an individual basis is fine by me, I may build one outback for fun but to destroy the rest of the economy out some strange psychological illness seems objectionable.

[noddy]

nods, we might be talking past each other, if a man wants his $#!Tshack I will salute him, what I condemn is an economy that only allows for $#!Tshacks anymore. The Democrats have chosen to eliminate any other option than a $#!Thsack and for that I condemn them. There is no reason to condemn a generation, or a permanent $#!tshack future.

But the people have chosen $#!tshacks politically, which on an individual basis is fine by me, I may build one outback for fun but to destroy the rest of the economy out some strange psychological illness seems objectionable.

probably are talking past eachother to a certain extent.

im just talking about the fact that the economy cant carry so many dinosaur industries or government staff on tax money anymore.. unless you have some master plan for creating all those stable boring jobs for those stable boring folks then shitshacks is the future for alot of people.. end of story.. maths dont lie.

lets call these people the romney 47%

as such, sure, i agree their should be less rules holding back success but i also think the rules that hold back the poor are equally on topic.

maybe their will be a new big thing that rebuilds the prosperity of the boomer youth .. dont know, cant see it, all i do i know is that racking up debt waiting for it isnt working so embrace the shitshack

its a nice way of avoiding debt slavery and wage slavery until you do get onto a good export gravy train.

the cities didnt build up populations from the rural areas due to welfare, they did so due to work being available.. i kinda suspect their may be one more round of migration to come yet and thats the rural areas getting more shitshacks.

chan akya pointed out on the other board that its not just the current round of job destruction in retail and traditional industry - the next round of job destruction will include many traditional city services (catering ,office rental, taxis, etc) as more people choose to work from home or from enclaves (rural or semi rural)

its difficult terrirtory, most of the middle class west is pretty obsessed with standards and rules, the left especially - so getting from "here" to "there" politically seems a nightmare.

contradiction city.

[Simple Minded]

Tinker, you always make me smile.

This was intended as a bit of humor in the form of anyone who has dealt with unions, has a real tough time thinking of union members as anything resembling cooperative.... The very concept of I can deliberately work at less than my capacity, or deliberately sabotage your profits, with the intended result of forcing you to pay me more..... well, I guess everyone has a different definition of the word cooperative......

I think there is an equitable mean that two sides knowing each other's needs and caring about their well-being that would be mutually beneficial to all parties and result in optimal outcomes for all.

It's an adversarial system, it is setup that way, the entire legal system is adversarial, the economy is adversarial. We are setup as adversaries from the jump. We get dumped into Kindergarten then once that's over it's time to compete, always compete for the rest of your life, if you do not you will be DOOMED, DOOOOMED, DOOOOOOOOMED!!!

But hey, there's always McDonald's. Except McDonald's doesn't pay enough to live on. Hmm... Adversarial. What came first; the disgruntled worker or the the min/maxing CEO who minned their wages while maxing his salary?

I make it a point to try to average the lowest paid people whose employment is contingent upon my patronage, i.e. cab drivers, baby-sitters, waitresses and the like, at least $ 15 an hour. $ 15 isn't a lot, but it's something. Less than that and it is hard to make end's meet. That is definitely wage slavery. McDonald's day shift and the closing shift at Arby's every week day in and day out. No real way to get out of that because you never get past paying your basic expenses. The living wage is not really something we negotiate because it is named for what it is, a LIVING wage. Without it you stop living. It is immoral to exploit the desperation of people for resources by paying them so little that they cannot afford to pay rent anywhere near the jurisdiction where they work.

Does class warfare come from the bottom up or the top down? Just because someone has wealth and privilege does that mean that they DESERVE that wealth and privilege? I am a pragmatist. Society exists to feed, clothe, house, and care for human beings. There is nothing else. Whatever model is best to achieve those ends is the model that I think is best. That is its moral tenet. And if you are so blessed to receive grace's bounty and hoard it, and use it to exploit people, then that's no good. A living wage is a line that can be demarcated clearly by averaging the cost of living in the jurisdiction in which the worker resides. Lets face it, your McDonald's worker is not going to live in Manhattan unless he started in Manhattan at this point, but in most jurisdictions in this country, you can get by on $ 15 an hour and do pretty well.

Well put Tinker, and I share your compassion. But we are still fighting human nature here. I'll grant you that some corporations may exploit the poor, but so do politicians who claim to want to help them, and consumers who also claim to want to help them.

I recall you outsourcing jobs to India and refusing to hire UAW baby sitters. Ibrahim voting for politicians who promise him tax cuts. The typical Walmart shopper. Warren Buffet & Ted Kennedy demanding that the rich pay more taxes while hiring attorneys and accounting to shield their income/wealth from taxes. Nothing preventing any of us from voluntarily paying more for our services. In the free market, it is often called tipping. Not allowed everywhere I know.

Deficit spending on the part of individuals, corporations, and governments thruout the West for decades is a hell of an indicator. We're all on the list.

Fred the consumer in conflict with Fred the producer. Fred the voter in conflict with Fred the taxpayer. Fred the SEIU member in conflict with Fred the unemployed college grad. Fred the $15 an hour minimum wage worker in conflict with Fred seeking an entry level job.

We are each one of the above at different points in our lives. As I have said many times, the problem is people want square circles and free lunches. We have met the enemy and he is us!!!!!

Hell, as we have proven in the "Designing a Cooperative" thread, nothing is cheaper than talk about ideology and vague terms. When it comes times to actually creating a few rules and or guidelines, even the mighty minds on this site become as feeble as congress.....

[Simple Minded]

queue shitshack dissonance for me... queue ninja loans dissonance.. bring on the disssonance, wallow in the dissonance, taste the dissonance.. its good.. nom nom nom dissonance, it sustains.

is the problem that $10 an hour cant buy house and food ? or that house and food cost more than $10 an hour can afford ?

I don't know if it is A Problem in the cosmic sense, but it certainly makes sense for worker who cannot maintain themselves in food and shelter to agitate for higher wages, and it probably benefits employers to pay them one (Henry Ford blah blah blah).

The two stumbling blocks are:

1. What if your employer is an enormous multinational with titular head offices in Luxembourg or Grand Cayman and doesn't care what the community, or even country, that there workers live in looks like.

2. Other "conservatives" who don't personally have a horse in the race, but who habitually oppose labor in all confrontations, and who also support legislation that makes things worse for workers because it doesn't effect them personally and conforms to some vague Randian ideology.


Thus increasingly militant labor organization. You've got one of the few jobs that can't be outsourced, your employer doesn't care about you, and half your fellow citizens want to see you lose like you were a rival football team, so you have to organize and maybe crack heads. Union thuggery, ho!

Don't forget rich Canadians who vote for lower taxes Bro......

Depriving school lunches to those poor minority Americian youths...... shame on you.....

Deny your inner conservative..... if you can.....

[Simple Minded]

Lets not forget one of the biggest causes of all,
the demographic pyramid which allowed so many Ponzi schemes of the past to be sustainable for a few years or decades...
has done flipped upside down in the Western hemisphere.......

Its those selfish youth who are too young to vote refusing to fund our current needs with their future abilities......