Azrael wrote:That would explain the Russian space programTyphoon wrote:"A lot" is a relative term.
Very good.
Azrael wrote:That would explain the Russian space programTyphoon wrote:"A lot" is a relative term.
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1638#p45136Enki wrote: Coming from the man worships the mad sorcerer of patmos as wishes his ravings would come true.
I thought your belief was we had no control, no free will. Sort of how Lucifer envisioned, I understand.So saying we have control over ourselves sounds like Lucifer huh?
Well in sum, Lucifer would like to control our actions, but if he can't he would like us to choose against the will of God. In so many words.What bible verses attributed to Lucifer do you think are most instructive as to this biblical character's motivations?
Enki wrote:Lucifer is post-Christian eschatonian occultism. It is not Christianity.
Lucifer is basically what happens when you syncretize Jesus into being Zeus, in which case Lucifer is Prometheus.
Yeah. And you think end times is in Revelation.Enki wrote:Lucifer is not mentioned in the bible even once. Isaiah was talking about Nebuchadnezzer when he talked about the Morning Star.
Lucifer is post-Christian eschatonian occultism. It is not Christianity.
Lucifer is basically what happens when you syncretize Jesus into being Zeus, in which case Lucifer is Prometheus.
If you're talking about Lucifer at all, then you've gone all off the rails into heresy.
Jesus came not condemn this world, but to save it. You don't seem to believe in that part. You're all condemnation all the time.
I pray you find Christ.
You've got Satan in your heart son. And unlike many of us, you're not wrestling with him, you're believing he's the righteous part of you.
http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/4-4.htmIbrahim wrote:Enki wrote:Lucifer is post-Christian eschatonian occultism. It is not Christianity.
Lucifer is basically what happens when you syncretize Jesus into being Zeus, in which case Lucifer is Prometheus.
I've read some interesting argument for Lucifer being a Promethean figure, but this is more a literary comparison.. The role of Satan in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam is simply that of the un-God. The leader of the opposition party. The differences are in how he acts out that role.
As Christianity and Islam are law-based Satan/Lucifer is simply the stick for lawbreakers, with Heaven as the carrot. In Christianity its more complex because Christians don't agree on how exactly a person is "saved," and of course schisms arose over this detail. I do run across Christians of certain sects who have the idea that most or all of the world is the domain of Satan, is inherently bad, and most people are condemned. I must admit I don't know all the theology behind that but it seems to be a pretty dismal view of the world. At least the negative forms of Buddhism give you more lifetimes to figure it out.
God wants it that way.Mr. Perfect wrote:http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/4-4.htmIbrahim wrote:Enki wrote:Lucifer is post-Christian eschatonian occultism. It is not Christianity.
Lucifer is basically what happens when you syncretize Jesus into being Zeus, in which case Lucifer is Prometheus.
I've read some interesting argument for Lucifer being a Promethean figure, but this is more a literary comparison.. The role of Satan in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam is simply that of the un-God. The leader of the opposition party. The differences are in how he acts out that role.
As Christianity and Islam are law-based Satan/Lucifer is simply the stick for lawbreakers, with Heaven as the carrot. In Christianity its more complex because Christians don't agree on how exactly a person is "saved," and of course schisms arose over this detail. I do run across Christians of certain sects who have the idea that most or all of the world is the domain of Satan, is inherently bad, and most people are condemned. I must admit I don't know all the theology behind that but it seems to be a pretty dismal view of the world. At least the negative forms of Buddhism give you more lifetimes to figure it out.
Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
The use of Satan and Lucifer are different semantically. Note that when I talked about rational self control, Mr. P. Said Lucifer not Satan.Ibrahim wrote:Enki wrote:Lucifer is post-Christian eschatonian occultism. It is not Christianity.
Lucifer is basically what happens when you syncretize Jesus into being Zeus, in which case Lucifer is Prometheus.
I've read some interesting argument for Lucifer being a Promethean figure, but this is more a literary comparison.. The role of Satan in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam is simply that of the un-God. The leader of the opposition party. The differences are in how he acts out that role.
As Christianity and Islam are law-based Satan/Lucifer is simply the stick for lawbreakers, with Heaven as the carrot. In Christianity its more complex because Christians don't agree on how exactly a person is "saved," and of course schisms arose over this detail. I do run across Christians of certain sects who have the idea that most or all of the world is the domain of Satan, is inherently bad, and most people are condemned. I must admit I don't know all the theology behind that but it seems to be a pretty dismal view of the world. At least the negative forms of Buddhism give you more lifetimes to figure it out.
I said YOUR version of freedom is shackles. And I think it's so. You think it's a reasonable use of the government's monopoly on violence to make me put on pants. If such a simple fundamental freedom is worth using that much aggressive force, then indeed your idea of freedom is shackles.Mr. Perfect wrote:Anyone who would say that freedoms are shackles, I know very well who that person works for.
I don't think he ever said anything about specifically giving money to the poor. He told the apostles to sell all of their stuff and give it to the poor. But he didn't say anything about how helping the poor was money specific. He washed lepers feet, he healed the sick, he just stated a kind word when it was needed. He didn't exclude money from his notion of charity, but when he was talking about charity he wasn't talking about money.Jesus wants us to give money to the poor, as individuals. You can only really be good at that and fulfill those commands if you have some.
No you didn't.Enki wrote: I said YOUR version of freedom is shackles.
Nobody takes this argument seriously. Not even you. I never even think about it unless you bring it up and neither does anyone else. They won'[t even pass your ordinance in San Francisco for crying out loud.And I think it's so. You think it's a reasonable use of the government's monopoly on violence to make me put on pants. If such a simple fundamental freedom is worth using that much aggressive force, then indeed your idea of freedom is shackles.
He sure did.I don't think he ever said anything about specifically giving money to the poor.
He told the apostles to sell all of their stuff and give it to the poor. But he didn't say anything about how helping the poor was money specific.
He sure was.He washed lepers feet, he healed the sick, he just stated a kind word when it was needed. He didn't exclude money from his notion of charity, but when he was talking about charity he wasn't talking about money.
The Fleabaggers aren't important enough to hate, I don't even think of them unless I stumble across you mentioning them. They were a tool of large corporations and aren't politically or culturally relevant or relevant to me personally at all. Yes, they were a fun Pinata for a while, but just like you, they rage against corporations for a while and then go work for one when it isn't fun anymore.Occupy Wall Street operates like this, and you hate them for it. So you have demonstrated that you are not only against the government helping the poor, you are against individuals doing it as well.
Enki wrote: You've really got nothing but tribalism.
I want to set the world free, to have their god given natural rights. You want to enslave them to the state. I don't have enough hate in me to be a leftist.You are driven by hate and condemnation, not love and redemption.
Your ideology is setting records for impoverishing humanity, as it has done before, and it's just getting started. I just don't have enough hate to stand for the things you stand for. The government, your god, is destorying human lives as fast as it knows how. I can never support such actions.Your hate is completely irrational, you hate the most the groups most behaving in the ways that the ideologies you claim to profess say they should behave.
Yes, I did. I was specifically talking about how 'Liberty' as a battlecry was used to usher in the surveillance state and take away freedoms. But it's cool, you never actually listen to me.Mr. Perfect wrote:No you didn't.
You big government liberals all look the same to me.Nobody takes this argument seriously. Not even you. I never even think about it unless you bring it up and neither does anyone else. They won'[t even pass your ordinance in San Francisco for crying out loud.
Yea, it's always all about money to you.He sure did.
He told the apostles to sell all of their stuff and give it to the poor. But he didn't say anything about how helping the poor was money specific.
Nope.He sure was.
Dealing in stereotypes.The Fleabaggers aren't important enough to hate, I don't even think of them unless I stumble across you mentioning them. They were a tool of large corporations and aren't politically or culturally relevant or relevant to me personally at all. Yes, they were a fun Pinata for a while, but just like you, they rage against corporations for a while and then go work for one when it isn't fun anymore.
You're not against the government, you're just against a faction that is not yours being in control of it. You love big government.The Government is destroying the poor Tinker that is why I am against this government and others.
You have on multiple occasions expressed a desire to see thousands imprisoned and regularly speak longingly for the death of almost everyone on the planet.Mr. Perfect wrote:I want to set the world free, to have their god given natural rights.
My politics are decidedly less statist than yours.You want to enslave them to the state.
But you are all hate.I don't have enough hate in me to be a leftist.
The ideology that you claim I profess you mean. See, this is an example of hate. You cannot recognize people for who they are, but only for who your hate tells you they are.Your ideology is setting records for impoverishing humanity, as it has done before, and it's just getting started.
You have more hate in you than anyone I know.I just don't have enough hate to stand for the things you stand for.
Again, you call The Government my God. Why would you do this? Why do you feel the need to lie about me? Someone you hardly even know. You have created this whole vicious and evil scenario that doesn't even accurately describe me. But you say you are not driven by hate. If you are not driven by hate, then why you feel so compelled to say I hold convictions I do not hold, when those convictions are convictions you believe to be Satanic?The government, your god, is destorying human lives as fast as it knows how. I can never support such actions.
That's not how you were talking about it. you keep changing the subject. We can look up your quotes and read them in context if you want.Enki wrote: Yes, I did. I was specifically talking about how 'Liberty' as a battlecry was used to usher in the surveillance state and take away freedoms. But it's cool, you never actually listen to me.
Racist.You big government liberals all look the same to me.
It takes money to feed the poor. Someone has to live in reality. How many poor can lower income people feed?Yea, it's always all about money to you.
yupNope.
And actual real life examples.Dealing in stereotypes.
Government is like fire, when used properly it is a boon to mankind, when used destructively it is horribly devastating.You're not against the government, you're just against a faction that is not yours being in control of it. You love big government.
I don't do any such thing. It makes me cry, morn, lament and mope as you said. This self destruction is retarded. Yet inevitable it appears.Enki wrote: You have on multiple occasions expressed a desire to see thousands imprisoned and regularly speak longingly for the death of almost everyone on the planet.
That's hilarious. I want 75% of government eliminated, you want single payer.My politics are decidedly less statist than yours.
People are often not honest, so I go by their actions and not their claims.But you are all hate.
The ideology that you claim I profess you mean. See, this is an example of hate. You cannot recognize people for who they are, but only for who your hate tells you they are.
I know you are an up is down, left is right dude from way back, Obama has actually shrunk government and all that but others of us roll our eyes and move on.You have more hate in you than anyone I know.
Again, you call The Government my God. Why would you do this? Why do you feel the need to lie about me? Someone you hardly even know. You have created this whole vicious and evil scenario that doesn't even accurately describe me. But you say you are not driven by hate.
It's a friendly call to repentance. I'm concerned about you, always have been. Every once in a while I see flicker of light, of conscience, and then it gets snuffed out. I wouldn't do this with Zack Morris. There is a soullessness there, nothing to work with.If you are not driven by hate, then why you feel so compelled to say I hold convictions I do not hold, when those convictions are convictions you believe to be Satanic?
If you do not hate me, then why do you describe me as Satan?
That is how I was talking about it. I was talking about the political rhetoric of Liberty used to push a pro-government agenda. I was being subtle about it, but it was part of a long dialogue you and I have had for years.Mr. Perfect wrote:That's not how you were talking about it. you keep changing the subject. We can look up your quotes and read them in context if you want.
lolRacist.
Actually, it take food to feed the poor. Money doesn't exist in reality, pieces of paper exist in reality. Lettuce and Ham exists in reality. Money is an imaginary construct that we agree to assign a certain value to.It takes money to feed the poor. Someone has to live in reality. How many poor can lower income people feed?
He wasn't not talking about money, but he certainly did not limit it to money, and warned rather emphatically about not limiting it to money.yup
That's the thing about a stereotype, every stereotype has a real world example that exemplifies it. WHat makes it a stereotype is when you inappropriately apply it to overly broad groups.And actual real life examples.
Agreed. And what's funny is that I think you and I are more in agreement than not about the proper role of government.Government is like fire, when used properly it is a boon to mankind, when used destructively it is horribly devastating.
Mr. Perfect wrote:Previous two posts sound like something I've heard ascribed to Lucifer, the god of this world.
Apollonius wrote:In the early days of the old Spengler forum I argued for a world population total of maybe 100 million.
Typhoon wrote:On what do you base this rather low number?
Apollonius wrote:People like Goldman and Mr. Perfect or the president of Uganda (I don't care where they come from) who get all self-righteous about uncontrolled breeding, strike me as outrageously self-centred. Take your hideous and contemptible religion of murder and ecological ruin and shove it.
Typhoon wrote:This seems to imply that breeding should controlled which start to come close to the boundary of eugenics: who should decide who can breed and who cannot
Ein Junge kommt zur Welt, er ist behindert. Im Alter von elf Jahren zieht er vor Gericht. Sein Klagegrund ist, dass er nicht abgetrieben wurde. Dass er auf der Welt ist. Das klingt unglaublich und ist doch hundertfach geschehen - in Israel. Eine Fallstudie aus einem Land, das perfekte Kinder möchte
A child materially born is not an Aryan; the child born in spirituality is an Aryan." He further elaborated, referring to the Manu Smriti: "Says our great law-giver, Manu, giving the definition of an Aryan, 'He is the Aryan, who is born through prayer.' Every child not born through prayer is illegitimate, according to the great law-giver: "The child must be prayed for. Those children that come with curses, that slip into the world, just in a moment of inadvertence, because that could not be prevented - what can we expect of such progeny?... (Swami Vivekananda, Complete Works vol.8)
As I said we can look up the quotes. We can look up where you say there is no free will.Enki wrote: That is how I was talking about it. I was talking about the political rhetoric of Liberty used to push a pro-government agenda. I was being subtle about it, but it was part of a long dialogue you and I have had for years.
I remember what I said. I said I don't believe in 'freedom' I believe in the maximization of choice. I believe I spoke about the tyranny of having a physical body IIRC and being constrained by physical reality.
I know, social constructs and all that. Math exists but our math is just a guess. Laws are just words on paper. I get that. What you don't get is that with little scribbles of paper, with math, laws and money mankind created the life giving properties of what we call civilization. I know you're not a big fan by your words, but your actions show that you like civilization just fine and are some kind of oikophobe. You tear it down with one hand and stuff the food it makes into your mouth with the other. That's the Peter Keating in you talking. If there was any Howard Roark in you would have been out of here to the heart of Africa or South America long ago, as many others have done. We are not obligated to comply to your inconsistency.Actually, it take food to feed the poor. Money doesn't exist in reality, pieces of paper exist in reality. Lettuce and Ham exists in reality. Money is an imaginary construct that we agree to assign a certain value to.
That's right. Jesus was not as fixated on giving to the poor as many would like to say. He had other messages. Eg the wages of sin. And the day of his coming. I would heed those messages.He wasn't not talking about money, but he certainly did not limit it to money, and warned rather emphatically about not limiting it to money.
Could be. My vision of government is a government of private corporations, of no public schooling, of no entitlements, of a large military, of virtually no taxes, where the Federal Government is so small it's barely newsworthy, no national media would cover it because nothing is going on.That's the thing about a stereotype, every stereotype has a real world example that exemplifies it. WHat makes it a stereotype is when you inappropriately apply it to overly broad groups.
Agreed. And what's funny is that I think you and I are more in agreement than not about the proper role of government.
I want to teleport into your living room right now. Didn't work. Hmm...I guess my will is constrained. Who knew?Mr. Perfect wrote:As I said we can look up the quotes. We can look up where you say there is no free will.
non sequitur, has nothing to do with the topic at hand.I will say now, as others have said many times before, and as I wonder why I would waste the time to try to do this again, the people in North Korea and the tyranny they suffer under their bodies compared to the tyranny you suffer with your body are not the same. If you doubt me, you can go over there and find out.
After all that parsing lets just get back to the notion that if someone is hungry you can give them food without giving them money.I know, social constructs and all that. Math exists but our math is just a guess. Laws are just words on paper. I get that. What you don't get is that with little scribbles of paper, with math, laws and money mankind created the life giving properties of what we call civilization. I know you're not a big fan by your words, but your actions show that you like civilization just fine and are some kind of oikophobe. You tear it down with one hand and stuff the food it makes into your mouth with the other. That's the Peter Keating in you talking. If there was any Howard Roark in you would have been out of here to the heart of Africa or South America long ago, as many others have done. We are not obligated to comply to your inconsistency.
Actually he wasn't talking about sin primarily, he was talking about redemption. He was saying if we loved everybody as much as we love ourselves, then we know what its like to love God. You're hung up on the details. The only sin is not loving God and his creation properly. All of the rest are just permutations. You extract the love from it and make it about all the legalisms. You pick and choose the sins of others to get incensed about and forgive yourself any of your own sins. You think you get to pick and choose which of God's people are 'evil'. You're not the judge of that.That's right. Jesus was not as fixated on giving to the poor as many would like to say. He had other messages. Eg the wages of sin. And the day of his coming. I would heed those messages.
My point has always been that we as a people should take care of one another. As you may have noticed, though it clearly seems to have passed right by your attentions, I spend a whole lot more of my effort trying to get services provided through citizen volunteerism than I do by lobbying my representatives. Usually when I talk to representatives, I ask them to stop hurting my fellow citizens with pepper spray and billy clubs and the like. On a number of occasions I have gone into the offices of reps that have large constituencies that I am trying to talk to, like say, Haitian-Americans.Could be. My vision of government is a government of private corporations, of no public schooling, of no entitlements, of a large military, of virtually no taxes, where the Federal Government is so small it's barely newsworthy, no national media would cover it because nothing is going on.