World Population Growth is slowing, may see global decline

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Typhoon
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Re: World Population Growth is slowing, may see global decli

Post by Typhoon »

Enki wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote: I guess.

I don't love how life for you guys is like the old Arnold movie about last man standing survival for reality TV. Your commitment to destroying human existence is astonishing.
It's funny how seriously disturbed you are. The only thing threatening human existence is that we are more populous than ever and certain people, you for instance, think that poisoning the commons is ok and has no ill effects as long as it makes money.
How is the current global population "threatening human existence"?
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Re: World Population Growth is slowing, may see global decli

Post by Typhoon »

Mr. Perfect wrote:I don't think anyone could argue with you Zack. If leftists decide to self terminate who am I really to complain about it.
What does this have to do with the topic?
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Re: World Population Growth is slowing, may see global decli

Post by Enki »

Typhoon wrote:How is the current global population "threatening human existence"?
Pollution that threatens the commons, poisons aquifers and fouls the air. That should be obvious.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Greetings Juno - Happy New Year

Post by monster_gardener »

Juno wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:
Enki wrote: It's basic understanding of how the world works. Fairy tales are that no matter what we need to breed more and make more money.
When you set up ponzi scheme societies, that's exactly what you have to do. Or you'll all die. Or most of you anyway.
If you weren't an ideological quotebot
As you have found out recently, you have to speak in a language your audience understands.
you might note that many of us have children and are carrying on into the next generation. ;)
Anecdotes don't overcome averages (see OP)
If that happens, I'll definitely think of you as well.
I'm often told people think of me often after spending any time around me. I don't know if that is good or bad though.
Been wondering how you were doing lately, Mr. P. Salutations and bladishments to ye.
Thank You VERY Much for your Post, Juno.

Happy New Year.

Glad you came back.

Hope you stick around
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Re: World Population Growth is slowing, may see global decli

Post by Typhoon »

Enki wrote:
Typhoon wrote:How is the current global population "threatening human existence"?
Pollution that threatens the commons, poisons aquifers and fouls the air. That should be obvious.
The US and the UK are cleaner today then they were 100 and 50 years ago, respectively. Japan is far cleaner than it was 30 years ago.

All have higher populations today.
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Re: World Population Growth is slowing, may see global decli

Post by Enki »

Typhoon wrote:
Enki wrote:
Typhoon wrote:How is the current global population "threatening human existence"?
Pollution that threatens the commons, poisons aquifers and fouls the air. That should be obvious.
The US and the UK are cleaner today then they were 100 and 50 years ago, respectively. Japan is far cleaner than it was 30 years ago.

All have higher populations today.
Yes, but the world is expanding and industrializing. There are more countries industrializing today than in the time in which the US and Japan industrialized. They have poor environmental regulations and they belch out nasty emmisions from cheap poorly built factories.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Re: World Population Growth is slowing, may see global decli

Post by Typhoon »

Enki wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Enki wrote:
Typhoon wrote:How is the current global population "threatening human existence"?
Pollution that threatens the commons, poisons aquifers and fouls the air. That should be obvious.
The US and the UK are cleaner today then they were 100 and 50 years ago, respectively. Japan is far cleaner than it was 30 years ago.

All have higher populations today.
Yes, but the world is expanding and industrializing. There are more countries industrializing today than in the time in which the US and Japan industrialized. They have poor environmental regulations and they belch out nasty emissions from cheap poorly built factories.
The historical process has been

industrialize -> pollute -> get rich -> clean up

An exception to the rule was the Soviet Union which has some of the worst pollution on the planet yet due to the one party system made no or little effort to clean it up.
The party could not fine and punish itself for the mess that it had made.

Also, instead of getting rich they went broke.

China, with it's current system of one-party kleptocracy, will be an interesting case in this regard.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Farcus

Re: World Population Growth is slowing, may see global decli

Post by Farcus »

Typhoon wrote:
Enki wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Enki wrote:
Typhoon wrote:How is the current global population "threatening human existence"?
Pollution that threatens the commons, poisons aquifers and fouls the air. That should be obvious.
The US and the UK are cleaner today then they were 100 and 50 years ago, respectively. Japan is far cleaner than it was 30 years ago.

All have higher populations today.
Yes, but the world is expanding and industrializing. There are more countries industrializing today than in the time in which the US and Japan industrialized. They have poor environmental regulations and they belch out nasty emissions from cheap poorly built factories.
The historical process has been

industrialize -> pollute -> get rich -> clean up

An exception to the rule was the Soviet Union which has some of the worst pollution on the planet yet due to the one party system made no or little effort to clean it up.
The party could not fine and punish itself for the mess that it had made.

Sounds like Japan...except they just don't have enough tax dollars to clean up Fukushima Prefecture.
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Re: World Population Growth is slowing, may see global decli

Post by Typhoon »

Farcus wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Enki wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Enki wrote:
Typhoon wrote:How is the current global population "threatening human existence"?
Pollution that threatens the commons, poisons aquifers and fouls the air. That should be obvious.
The US and the UK are cleaner today then they were 100 and 50 years ago, respectively. Japan is far cleaner than it was 30 years ago.

All have higher populations today.
Yes, but the world is expanding and industrializing. There are more countries industrializing today than in the time in which the US and Japan industrialized. They have poor environmental regulations and they belch out nasty emissions from cheap poorly built factories.
The historical process has been

industrialize -> pollute -> get rich -> clean up

An exception to the rule was the Soviet Union which has some of the worst pollution on the planet yet due to the one party system made no or little effort to clean it up.
The party could not fine and punish itself for the mess that it had made.
Sounds like Japan...except they just don't have enough tax dollars to clean up Fukushima Prefecture.
So you're claiming that the former SU is like Japan today?

Image

You're trolling.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Farcus

Re: World Population Growth is slowing, may see global decli

Post by Farcus »

Typhoon wrote:
Farcus wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Enki wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Enki wrote:How

Pollution that threatens the commons, poisons aquifers and fouls the air. That should be obvious.
The US and the UK are cleaner today then they were 100 and 50 years ago, respectively. Japan is far cleaner than it was 30 years ago.

All have higher populations today.
Yes, but the world is expanding and industrializing. There are more countries industrializing today than in the time in which the US and Japan industrialized. They have poor environmental regulations and they belch out nasty emissions from cheap poorly built factories.
The historical process has been

industrialize -> pollute -> get rich -> clean up

An exception to the rule was the Soviet Union which has some of the worst pollution on the planet yet due to the one party system made no or little effort to clean it up.
The party could not fine and punish itself for the mess that it had made.
Sounds like Japan...except they just don't have enough tax dollars to clean up Fukushima Prefecture.
So you're claiming that the former SU is like Japan today?

Image

You're trolling.


Is it bad to point out that most pollution is cleaned up with tax dollars?
Is it mean to point out industrialized Japan has released a lot of poison into the world lately?
Is it distasteful to point out that there isn't enough $$ in the world, much less tax $$ in Japan, to clean up the poison in Fukushima County for at least a few decades?
Is it rude to show an example of another unstated exception to an arbitrary historical model?

Or is it just trolling when I do it in one sentence of prose poetry to agree with Enki's point? :lol:


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Re: World Population Growth is slowing, may see global decli

Post by Typhoon »

Farcus wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Farcus wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Enki wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
The US and the UK are cleaner today then they were 100 and 50 years ago, respectively. Japan is far cleaner than it was 30 years ago.

All have higher populations today.
Yes, but the world is expanding and industrializing. There are more countries industrializing today than in the time in which the US and Japan industrialized. They have poor environmental regulations and they belch out nasty emissions from cheap poorly built factories.
The historical process has been

industrialize -> pollute -> get rich -> clean up

An exception to the rule was the Soviet Union which has some of the worst pollution on the planet yet due to the one party system made no or little effort to clean it up.
The party could not fine and punish itself for the mess that it had made.
Sounds like Japan...except they just don't have enough tax dollars to clean up Fukushima Prefecture.
So you're claiming that the former SU is like Japan today?

Image

You're trolling.
Is it bad to point out that most pollution is cleaned up with tax dollars?
True.
Farcus wrote: . . . to point out industrialized Japan has released a lot of poison into the world lately?
False.
Farcus wrote: . . . to point out that there isn't enough $$ in the world, much less tax $$ in Japan, to clean up the poison in Fukushima County for at least a few decades?
False.
Farcus wrote:. . . to show an example of another unstated exception to an arbitrary historical model?
False.
Farcus wrote:"He who invokes Admin Privs to win a discussion is way too into it." -- Chinese Proverb
Has not been done, so also false.
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Re: World Population Growth is slowing, may see global decli

Post by Ibrahim »

Typhoon wrote:
Enki wrote:
Typhoon wrote:How is the current global population "threatening human existence"?
Pollution that threatens the commons, poisons aquifers and fouls the air. That should be obvious.
The US and the UK are cleaner today then they were 100 and 50 years ago, respectively. Japan is far cleaner than it was 30 years ago.

All have higher populations today.
Developed nations have outsourced much of their pollution-heavy manufacture to other nations like China (e.g. batteries, plastics). Which is to say that we get the products, they get the pollution. They also get lots of products too, of course. How are the pollution levels in the two most populous nations on Earth?
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Re: World Population Growth is slowing, may see global decli

Post by Ibrahim »

Which is not to say that population is necessarily linked to pollution. Declining birthrates are a proven consequence of access to contraception and the education and emancipation of women. It always goes down as a result. Nobody but religious fundamentalists or those obsessed with tribal bloodlines (Spengler) want to try and reverse those trends.
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Re: World Population Growth is slowing, may see global decli

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Typhoon wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:I don't think anyone could argue with you Zack. If leftists decide to self terminate who am I really to complain about it.
What does this have to do with the topic?
Here is the answer to your question CS.
ibs wrote:Nobody but religious fundamentalists or those obsessed with tribal bloodlines (Spengler) want to try and reverse those trends.
Censorship isn't necessary
Farcus

Re: World Population Growth is slowing, may see global decli

Post by Farcus »

Typhoon wrote:
Farcus wrote: . . . to point out industrialized Japan has released a lot of poison into the world lately?
False.
I suppose "A lot of" is a relative term.
Since you seem well informed of the physical properties of many radioactive isotopes, would it be an imposition for you to express the MD50 of the aforementioned Cesium-40 isotope in standard metric mass units for us? You know, kilograms, or tonnes, or what have you?
I'm pretty sure it's poisonous, I just wondered how many kilos of pure Cesium-40 an average person would have to take in to get a lethal dose?
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Re: World Population Growth is slowing, may see global decli

Post by Typhoon »

Farcus wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Farcus wrote: . . . to point out industrialized Japan has released a lot of poison into the world lately?
False.
I suppose "A lot of" is a relative term.
Since you seem well informed of the physical properties of many radioactive isotopes, would it be an imposition for you to express the MD50 of the aforementioned Cesium-40 isotope in standard metric mass units for us? You know, kilograms, or tonnes, or what have you?
I'm pretty sure it's poisonous, I just wondered how many kilos of pure Cesium-40 an average person would have to take in to get a lethal dose?
The Cesium-137 isotope is the one that is of concern.

As human death due to Cs-137 is very rare I was not able to find such data.
However, there is animal [dog] data which gives one an order of magnitude estimate:

81 kg [average US male weight] x 44μg/kg = 3321μg ~ 0.003 grams
Caesium-137 reacts with water producing a water-soluble compound (caesium hydroxide), and the biological behavior of caesium is similar to that of potassium and rubidium. After entering the body, caesium gets more or less uniformly distributed throughout the body, with higher concentration in muscle tissues and lower in bones. The biological half-life of caesium is rather short at about 70 days. [13] Experiments with dogs showed that a single dose of 3800 μCi/kg (140 MBq/kg, or approximately 44 μg/kg) is lethal within three weeks. [14]
Accidental ingestion of caesium-137 can be treated with Prussian blue, which binds to it chemically and reduces the biological half-life to 30 days.
re: Health risk of radioactive cesium
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Re: World Population Growth is slowing, may see global decli

Post by Typhoon »

Mr. Perfect wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:I don't think anyone could argue with you Zack. If leftists decide to self terminate who am I really to complain about it.
What does this have to do with the topic?
Here is the answer to your question CS.
ibs wrote:Nobody but religious fundamentalists or those obsessed with tribal bloodlines (Spengler) want to try and reverse those trends.
However, Spenglerman does not restrict his pondering to the US, does he? Religious fundamentalists are not restricted to the US, are they?
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Re: World Population Growth is slowing, may see global decli

Post by Mr. Perfect »

I don't know. My response to Zack was meant to include leftists all around the globe.
Censorship isn't necessary
Farcus

Re: World Population Growth is slowing, may see global decli

Post by Farcus »

Typhoon wrote:
Farcus wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Farcus wrote: . . . to point out industrialized Japan has released a lot of poison into the world lately?
False.
I suppose "A lot of" is a relative term.
Since you seem well informed of the physical properties of many radioactive isotopes, would it be an imposition for you to express the MD50 of the aforementioned Cesium-40 isotope in standard metric mass units for us? You know, kilograms, or tonnes, or what have you?
I'm pretty sure it's poisonous, I just wondered how many kilos of pure Cesium-40 an average person would have to take in to get a lethal dose?
The Cesium-137 isotope is the one that is of concern.

As human death due to Cs-137 is very rare I was not able to find such data.
However, there is animal [dog] data which gives one an order of magnitude estimate:

81 kg [average US male weight] x 44μg/kg = 3321μg ~ 0.003 grams
Caesium-137 reacts with water producing a water-soluble compound (caesium hydroxide), and the biological behavior of caesium is similar to that of potassium and rubidium. After entering the body, caesium gets more or less uniformly distributed throughout the body, with higher concentration in muscle tissues and lower in bones. The biological half-life of caesium is rather short at about 70 days. [13] Experiments with dogs showed that a single dose of 3800 μCi/kg (140 MBq/kg, or approximately 44 μg/kg) is lethal within three weeks. [14]
Accidental ingestion of caesium-137 can be treated with Prussian blue, which binds to it chemically and reduces the biological half-life to 30 days.
re: Health risk of radioactive cesium
Cesium 137 - 44μg/kg body weight. 0.000044 x 50 = 0.0022 = 2.2mg if I weighed 50kg.

A fatal dose of cyanide for humans can be as low as 1.5 mg/kg body weight [an assuredly lethal dosage is significantly higher] .0015 x 50 = 0.075g = 75mg.

So Caesium-137 is approximately 34 times as lethal by weight as cyanide?
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Re: World Population Growth is slowing, may see global decli

Post by Typhoon »

Farcus wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Farcus wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Farcus wrote: . . . to point out industrialized Japan has released a lot of poison into the world lately?
False.
I suppose "A lot of" is a relative term.
Since you seem well informed of the physical properties of many radioactive isotopes, would it be an imposition for you to express the MD50 of the aforementioned Cesium-40 isotope in standard metric mass units for us? You know, kilograms, or tonnes, or what have you?
I'm pretty sure it's poisonous, I just wondered how many kilos of pure Cesium-40 an average person would have to take in to get a lethal dose?
The Cesium-137 isotope is the one that is of concern.

As human death due to Cs-137 is very rare I was not able to find such data.
However, there is animal [dog] data which gives one an order of magnitude estimate:

81 kg [average US male weight] x 44μg/kg = 3321μg ~ 0.003 grams
Caesium-137 reacts with water producing a water-soluble compound (caesium hydroxide), and the biological behavior of caesium is similar to that of potassium and rubidium. After entering the body, caesium gets more or less uniformly distributed throughout the body, with higher concentration in muscle tissues and lower in bones. The biological half-life of caesium is rather short at about 70 days. [13] Experiments with dogs showed that a single dose of 3800 μCi/kg (140 MBq/kg, or approximately 44 μg/kg) is lethal within three weeks. [14]
Accidental ingestion of caesium-137 can be treated with Prussian blue, which binds to it chemically and reduces the biological half-life to 30 days.
re: Health risk of radioactive cesium
Cesium 137 - 44μg/kg body weight. 0.000044 x 50 = 0.0022 = 2.2mg if I weighed 50kg.

A fatal dose of cyanide for humans can be as low as 1.5 mg/kg body weight [an assuredly lethal dosage is significantly higher] .0015 x 50 = 0.075g = 75mg.

So Caesium-137 is approximately 34 times as lethal by weight as cyanide?
If your values for cyanide are correct, then yes.
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Re: World Population Growth is slowing, may see global decli

Post by Typhoon »

Mr. Perfect wrote:I don't know. My response to Zack was meant to include leftists all around the globe.
Well, I don't think the project future decline in global population can be attributed to the world embracing "leftism".
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Re: World Population Growth is slowing, may see global decli

Post by Apollonius »

Typhoon wrote:The historical process has been

industrialize -> pollute -> get rich -> clean up

An exception to the rule was the Soviet Union which has some of the worst pollution on the planet yet due to the one party system made no or little effort to clean it up.
The party could not fine and punish itself for the mess that it had made.



Ibrahim wrote:Developed nations have outsourced much of their pollution-heavy manufacture to other nations like China (e.g. batteries, plastics). Which is to say that we get the products, they get the pollution. They also get lots of products too, of course. How are the pollution levels in the two most populous nations on Earth?



Another country which has a pretty poor record, not as bad as the old Soviet Union, but still none too good, is Canada.

Many of our lakes and streams have high levels of toxic metals from the tailings of various mining operations. Very little of this comes to the attention of people living in the populated centres in the south of the country.


From having lived in remote areas, I am a personal witness to incredible devastation wrought by mining and forestry practices in Canada. (The two go hand-in-hand because the mining exposes the toxic metals; the clear-cuts allow the run-off to easily reach and contaminate rivers and lakes).

Nowadays I live not too far from what used to be one of the richest fishing grounds on earth. By now, they don't even do that much sports fishing here-- it's been largely fished out, and besides, contamination from pulp mills and other sources has rendered what remains of questionable value. I'm old enough to remember the Salmon Derby which used to be held close to Vancouver. That was cancelled decades ago. All salmon caught in the Vancouver area have cancerous growths. (I've personally catalogued the studies-- they make for some really desultory reading).



Another place that I don't have much personal experience with, but know to be something of an ecological disaster area, are large parts of Africa, mostly from international (European, American, Middle Eastern, and Chinese) concerns.

The Middle East itself is something of a basket case, especially the Persian Gulf.



What looks to be the worst place of all, are large parts of the oceans. Some countries, like Norway and Japan, which have pretty high standards at home, do a lot of damage on the high seas.






In the early days of the old Spengler forum I argued for a world population total of maybe 100 million.



People like Goldman and Mr. Perfect or the president of Uganda (I don't care where they come from) who get all self-righteous about uncontrolled breeding, strike me as outrageously self-centred. Take your hideous and contemptable religion of murder and ecological ruin and shove it.
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Re: World Population Growth is slowing, may see global decli

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Apollo, I don't necessarily want to be misunderstood, if you guys all want to stop reproducing and allow us to be 100 million we may have a workable compromise.
Censorship isn't necessary
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Re: World Population Growth is slowing, may see global decli

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Typhoon wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:I don't know. My response to Zack was meant to include leftists all around the globe.
Well, I don't think the project future decline in global population can be attributed to the world embracing "leftism".
For the sake of this argument, I do.
Censorship isn't necessary
Farcus

Re: World Population Growth is slowing, may see global decli

Post by Farcus »

Typhoon wrote:
Farcus wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Farcus wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Farcus wrote: . . . to point out industrialized Japan has released a lot of poison into the world lately?
False.
I suppose "A lot of" is a relative term.
Since you seem well informed of the physical properties of many radioactive isotopes, would it be an imposition for you to express the MD50 of the aforementioned Cesium-40 isotope in standard metric mass units for us? You know, kilograms, or tonnes, or what have you?
I'm pretty sure it's poisonous, I just wondered how many kilos of pure Cesium-40 an average person would have to take in to get a lethal dose?
The Cesium-137 isotope is the one that is of concern.

As human death due to Cs-137 is very rare I was not able to find such data.
However, there is animal [dog] data which gives one an order of magnitude estimate:

81 kg [average US male weight] x 44μg/kg = 3321μg ~ 0.003 grams
Caesium-137 reacts with water producing a water-soluble compound (caesium hydroxide), and the biological behavior of caesium is similar to that of potassium and rubidium. After entering the body, caesium gets more or less uniformly distributed throughout the body, with higher concentration in muscle tissues and lower in bones. The biological half-life of caesium is rather short at about 70 days. [13] Experiments with dogs showed that a single dose of 3800 μCi/kg (140 MBq/kg, or approximately 44 μg/kg) is lethal within three weeks. [14]
Accidental ingestion of caesium-137 can be treated with Prussian blue, which binds to it chemically and reduces the biological half-life to 30 days.
re: Health risk of radioactive cesium
Cesium 137 - 44μg/kg body weight. 0.000044 x 50 = 0.0022 = 2.2mg if I weighed 50kg.

A fatal dose of cyanide for humans can be as low as 1.5 mg/kg body weight [an assuredly lethal dosage is significantly higher] .0015 x 50 = 0.075g = 75mg.

So Caesium-137 is approximately 34 times as lethal by weight as cyanide?
If your values for cyanide are correct, then yes.
Thank you very much for your efforts! I just grabbed the cyanide nimber from what seemed like a reliable source:
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ewh-semt/pubs/wa ... ex-eng.php


From your above quote, 140 MBq/kg ~ 44 μg/kg = 140 MBq of caesium-137 ~ 44 μg of cesium-137 (MD100 for 1 kg of dog/human)
Tepco says the combined incidents at Okuma released 360,000 TBq of cesium-137 into the atmosphere alone (no numbers for ocean and groundwater release).
http://rt.com/news/fukushima-chernobyl- ... ation-145/

By the above formula, that's enough to MD100 71428571kg of human. About 1 million 71kg human beings.

So 1 fraction of the atmospheric release from Fukushima is enough poison (caesium-137) to kill about a million people?


Wouldn't that suggest that Japan has released a lot of poison into the world lately?
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