Pope Down

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Apollonius
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Re: Pope Down

Post by Apollonius »

Azrael wrote:Two of the favorites to be the next pope (according to Paddy Power) are African.

It would be very amusing to see how conservative, millenarian, protestants react to a black pope. I would imagine that many would see it as the end times and/or accuse the poor fellow of being the anti-Christ.

Image

Cardinal Peter Turkson, president of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace (based in Rome).



Under 'Views' there were four items:
1. African Pope

2. HIV/AIDS and condoms

3. Reform of the financial system

4. Homosexuality

It's an odd, and I'm afraid I must say so, an incredibly slanted set of distinguishing characteristics.



Nothing about doctrine or theology. Maybe Ratzinger said enough about that?

What are his views about heterosexuality? Any experience in these matters?


In any case, I don't see anything there that would get "conservatives" upset, but in ultra conservative places like the Caribbean and Africa his views would be welcomed by those who want to ensure that internal power structures won't be challenged.



I can't make an intelligent comment about "reform" of the financial system: the Devil is in the details, but if it's anything like Roman Catholic meddling in financial affairs in former times, I'd be wary of anything they recommend.




We've already seen what a magic president can accomplish. Do we need a magic pope?

If they want to elect a pope based on the politics of race wouldn't someone from Latin America make a lot more sense?
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Azrael
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Re: Pope Down

Post by Azrael »

Apollonius wrote:Nothing about doctrine or theology. Maybe Ratzinger said enough about that?
As a Catholic clergyman, he doesn't have much wiggle room on doctrine or theology.
What are his views about heterosexuality? Any experience in these matters?
If they didn't think that he was celibate, he wouldn't be a candidate.
We've already seen what a magic president can accomplish. Do we need a magic pope?
Hopefully, he's getting support because people think that he is qualified, not because of his shade.
If they want to elect a pope based on the politics of race wouldn't someone from Latin America make a lot more sense?
Yes, but there is a lot of rivalries between countries in Latin America, making it more difficult for them to vote as a bloc.
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Azrael
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Re: Pope Down

Post by Azrael »

Apollonius wrote:Nothing about doctrine or theology. Maybe Ratzinger said enough about that?
As a Catholic clergyman, he doesn't have much wiggle room on doctrine or theology.
What are his views about heterosexuality? Any experience in these matters?
If they didn't think that he was celibate, he wouldn't be a candidate.
We've already seen what a magic president can accomplish. Do we need a magic pope?
Hopefully, he's getting support because people think that he is qualified, not because of his shade.
If they want to elect a pope based on the politics of race wouldn't someone from Latin America make a lot more sense?
Yes, but there is a lot of rivalries between countries in Latin America, making it more difficult for them to vote as a bloc.
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Ibrahim
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Re: Pope Down

Post by Ibrahim »

Azrael wrote:
Apollonius wrote:Nothing about doctrine or theology. Maybe Ratzinger said enough about that?
As a Catholic clergyman, he doesn't have much wiggle room on doctrine or theology.
Indeed, very little can be expected of the Catholic hierarchy in terms of heterodox opinion. Criticisms about official doctrine on a number of matters, while legitimate, aren't relevant to any specific Cardinal.
Nastarana
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Re: Pope Down

Post by Nastarana »

Azrael wrote:
Enki wrote:Welcome Peter the Roman and your reign over the tribulation and end of the church. ;)

Now we'll see if Mr. Perfect is right or not.
Two of the favorites to be the next pope (according to Paddy Power) are African.

It would be very amusing to see how conservative, millenarian, protestants react to a black pope. I would imagine that many would see it as the end times and/or accuse the poor fellow of being the anti-Christ.

Image

Cardinal Peter Turkson, president of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace (based in Rome).
I am eagerly awaiting the Fox newsbabe and babette freakout over an (gasp!, How could this happen?) African Pope. The cutsy darlings, male and female both, are too blamed ignorant to know that the fisherman himself was not a white man. Nor, for that matter, were most if not all of the early patriarchs and doctors of the Church, including Augustine himself, a son of a Berber family, that is, the people now known as Berbers, of North Africa.

Every American Catholic, except possibly Booklady, surely by now knows that the Republican party never had and does not now have any intention of repealing Roe vs. Wade. If, as I suspect but cannot prove, Benedict was elected by the American cardinals voting en bloc in reutrn for a promise to repeal Roe vs. Wade, from Bush himself, who remained for three days in Rome after the funeral of the Blessed John Paul II, one could hope those cardinals might realize that they made a grave error. The Holy Spirit is surely present in the conlclave, but that doesn't mean Its guidance is always heeded. But, what do I know? No doubt, GWB, that well known culture vulture and bon vivant, was merely touring antiquities, visiting museums, maybe taking in a performance at Santa Cecelia.
Meanwhile, the victims of the austerity policies, war on the poor, of Presidents Clinton, Bush and Obama, are flooding the offices and food pantries of every parish in the USA. Many such charities are administered by nuns, whose testimony carries great weight with Catholic laity.
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Endovelico
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Re: Pope Down

Post by Endovelico »

I will only stop yawning at the news from the Vatican if a Latin-American is elected Pope.
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monster_gardener
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Imagine a Chinese Pope vs. a Two-Fer Latin Black.....

Post by monster_gardener »

Endovelico wrote:I will only stop yawning at the news from the Vatican if a Latin-American is elected Pope.
Thank You Very Much for your Post, Endo......

Come on, Endo...... ;)

Avoid Latin American Chauvinism ;)

I would love to have a good, doctrinally sound Latin American Pope.......

Especially a Cuban one......... ;)

Could even get a Two-Fer ;) :lol: ......... Black and Latin.......

Or maybe a Venezuelan....... ;)

But Imagine the fun if there was an African or Asian Pope........

Actually the Asians could be the most "interesting" ;)

Just imagine the fun of a Chinese, Vietnamese or Korean Pope.........

Gaskets blown in Socialist High Commands ;) similar to what what happened when a Polish ;) Pope helped polish ;) off the late Soviet Union.....

Might be a good way to "rub it in" ;) that the Papacy has power and is still relevant.......
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: Pope Down

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.


:lol: :lol: :lol: Alan Dershowitz says leading candidate for papacy is an anti-Semite


. . Cardinal Oscar Andres Rodriguez Maradiaga of Honduras as a possible successor to the current pope, Dershowitz wrote :

"He has blamed the Jews for the scandal surrounding the sexual misconduct of priests toward young parishioners! He has argued that the Jews got even with the Catholic Church for its anti-Israel positions by arranging for the media — which they, of course, control, he said — to give disproportionate attention to the Vatican sex scandal. He then compared the Jewish controlled media with Hitler, because they are 'protagonists of what I do not hesitate to define as a persecution against the church.'"

Maradiaga, in a May 2002 interview with the Italian-Catholic publication "30 Giorni," claimed Jews influenced the media to exploit the current controversy regarding sexual abuse by Catholic priests in order to divert attention from the Israeli-Palestinian crisis.


Maradiaga right, Rhubarb muddling the waters to change the subject of usurping Palestine .. once it is Iran, once it is no homosexuals in Iran and once is
priest homosexuals :lol:


.
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Endovelico
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Re: Imagine a Chinese Pope vs. a Two-Fer Latin Black.....

Post by Endovelico »

monster_gardener wrote:I would love to have a good, doctrinally sound Latin American Pope.......
My, my! That sounds ominous...
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Re: Imagine a Chinese Pope vs. a Two-Fer Latin Black.....

Post by monster_gardener »

Endovelico wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:I would love to have a good, doctrinally sound Latin American Pope.......
My, my! That sounds ominous...
Thank You Very Much for your post, Endo.

Quite Right, Endo.......

Could be ominous for nasty Commie/Atheistic Socialist types like Joe Stalin who asked "The Pope? How many divisions has he got?"

Bad Ole' Uncle Joe's successors found out when a Polish ;) Pope helped the Iron Lady and Ronnie Ray Gun to polish ;) them off.......

That said, IMVHO given the Depraved, 7 Deadly Sinful Egotistical Chaos Monkey Nature of Human Beings, G_d/Religion may be one of the few ways to make Socialism work long term on a voluntary basis such as with Monks, Nuns, Hutterites and the Jesuit Guarani Project in Paraguay......

Short of having Culture Minds or Jesus Himself to administer a Society of Plenty vs. a Society of Scarcity...........

But we Chaos Monkey's are almost as difficult as cats........ Even the original Apostles had trouble running a communist society.......
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Ibrahim
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Re: Pope Down

Post by Ibrahim »

Endovelico wrote:I will only stop yawning at the news from the Vatican if a Latin-American is elected Pope.
You wouldn't be impressed with an African pope? Filipino?


As the center of gravity of observant Catholics shifts more and more away from Europe and North America a Latin American or otherwise non-European pope becomes a certainty. The question is will they get to it this time?
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Re: Pope Down

Post by Ibrahim »

Bummer.

Cardinal Favored to Become First Black Pope Blames Gay Priests for the Church’s Sexual Abuse Scandals
In an interview last week with CNN, Ghanaian Cardnial Peter Turkson, considered by many to be the favorite to succeed Pope Benedict XVI (which would make him the first black Pope), created an uproar with his response to Christiane Amanpour's question about the possibility of the Catholic Church's sex scandal spreading to Africa. For Turkson, the issue isn't Church-wide cover ups of the scandal or any other systematic problem; instead, Turkson thinks the abuse occurred because there were too many gay priests in Europe and North America.

"African traditional systems kind of protect or have protected its population against this tendency," he said. "Because in several communities, in several cultures in Africa homosexuality or for that matter any affair between two sexes of the same kind are not countenanced in our society."
http://gawker.com/5985511/cardinal-favo ... e-scandals
Nastarana
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Re: Pope Down

Post by Nastarana »

Ibrahim wrote:Bummer.

Cardinal Favored to Become First Black Pope Blames Gay Priests for the Church’s Sexual Abuse Scandals
In an interview last week with CNN, Ghanaian Cardnial Peter Turkson, considered by many to be the favorite to succeed Pope Benedict XVI (which would make him the first black Pope), created an uproar with his response to Christiane Amanpour's question about the possibility of the Catholic Church's sex scandal spreading to Africa. For Turkson, the issue isn't Church-wide cover ups of the scandal or any other systematic problem; instead, Turkson thinks the abuse occurred because there were too many gay priests in Europe and North America.

"African traditional systems kind of protect or have protected its population against this tendency," he said. "Because in several communities, in several cultures in Africa homosexuality or for that matter any affair between two sexes of the same kind are not countenanced in our society."
http://gawker.com/5985511/cardinal-favo ... e-scandals
Bummer? Not at all. Those of us who faithfully tithe every week are not doing so in order to provide sexually active gay men with a comfortable refuge. The cardinal's comments did not suggest to me that he would have any tolerance for sexual abuse or its coverup.
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Re: Pope Down

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Ibrahim wrote:Bummer.

. . .
Literally.

Or should I say liturgically . . .
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Ibrahim
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Re: Pope Down

Post by Ibrahim »

Nastarana wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:Bummer.

Cardinal Favored to Become First Black Pope Blames Gay Priests for the Church’s Sexual Abuse Scandals
In an interview last week with CNN, Ghanaian Cardnial Peter Turkson, considered by many to be the favorite to succeed Pope Benedict XVI (which would make him the first black Pope), created an uproar with his response to Christiane Amanpour's question about the possibility of the Catholic Church's sex scandal spreading to Africa. For Turkson, the issue isn't Church-wide cover ups of the scandal or any other systematic problem; instead, Turkson thinks the abuse occurred because there were too many gay priests in Europe and North America.

"African traditional systems kind of protect or have protected its population against this tendency," he said. "Because in several communities, in several cultures in Africa homosexuality or for that matter any affair between two sexes of the same kind are not countenanced in our society."
http://gawker.com/5985511/cardinal-favo ... e-scandals
Bummer? Not at all. Those of us who faithfully tithe every week are not doing so in order to provide sexually active gay men with a comfortable refuge. The cardinal's comments did not suggest to me that he would have any tolerance for sexual abuse or its coverup.
His statements are demonstrably false, as the full article explains, and he also seems to be bragging about the complete intolerance for homosexuals in African countries. He is also essentially denying the systematic problems of the Catholic administration which contributed to the pedophilia scandal, and scapegoated homosexuals instead.

If this doesn't disqualify him then I can't think what would.
noddy
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Re: Pope Down

Post by noddy »

he doesnt need to appeal to progressives and gay approval- they hate him anyway and only bother paying attention to him so as to find something to mock.

he would need to take child abuse seriously and show it, which is an issue which is pissing off the actual catholics.
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Nastarana
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Re: Pope Down

Post by Nastarana »

I listened to the Amanapour interview.

I did not think her a good interviewer. I thought her questions were superficial and confined to the kind of lifestyle issues over which members of her social class like to obsess.

The cardinal answered the question she should have asked, which is what must the Catholic Church do now about the sexual abuse scandal. I though his answer was straightforward, make sure sexual criminals are not graduating from seminaries. I rather think his remarks about African communities not tolerating gays was a hint, if you will, that in Africa, the heirarchy has its ways of keeping candidates it deems undesireable out of the priesthood.

My impression of Cardinal Turkman, so far, is of a man who might not be a world class scholar like Benedict, but who is tough and pragmatic. I can imagine him telling American bishops to pay their bills from the scandal and live on less for a decade or so. I liked the way he did not mince words--"sexual criminals"--and the way he refused to give the sort of PC answers she clearly wanted.

What I hope the next pope will do is get the American church out of politics and back to caring for the poor and educating our young.
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Re: Pope Down

Post by Typhoon »

Nastarana wrote: . . .

My impression of Cardinal Turkman, so far, is of a man who might not be a world class scholar like Benedict, but who is tough and pragmatic. I can imagine him telling American bishops to pay their bills from the scandal and live on less for a decade or so.
Yes, that would be the beginning of a penance.
Nastarana wrote:I liked the way he did not mince words--"sexual criminals"--and the way he refused to give the sort of PC answers she clearly wanted.
Gawker | If he did indeed blame gay priest for paedophilia, he's added fuel to the fire.
Nastarana wrote:What I hope the next pope will do is get the American church out of politics and back to caring for the poor and educating our young.
Amen.
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Endovelico
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Re: Pope Down

Post by Endovelico »

Will the RCC ever realize that their problem with paedophilia has its roots on their celibacy rules and the way they repress sexuality among their student priests? Boys who cannot express normally their sexuality and are taught to think that sex must be repressed will grow up with an unsolved problem of sexuality. Some of them will try to solve their adolescent sexual frustration as grownups, and that leads to paedophilia. An end to celibacy and an encouragement to guiltless masturbation as youngsters as well as responsible sex with girls of their age, would quickly solve the paedophilic tendencies in the Church. And would make them a lot more competent to hear confession... :twisted:
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Re: Pope Down

Post by Typhoon »

Endovelico wrote:Will the RCC ever realize that their problem with paedophilia has its roots on their celibacy rules and the way they repress sexuality among their student priests? Boys who cannot express normally their sexuality and are taught to think that sex must be repressed will grow up with an unsolved problem of sexuality. Some of them will try to solve their adolescent sexual frustration as grownups, and that leads to paedophilia. An end to celibacy and an encouragement to guiltless masturbation as youngsters as well as responsible sex with girls of their age, would quickly solve the paedophilic tendencies in the Church. And would make them a lot more competent to hear confession... :twisted:
I'm reminded of Earl Butz's now classic joke at the 1974 World Food Conference in Rome,

about Pope Paul VI's opposition to birth/population control where he quipped, in a mock Italian accent:

"He no playa the game, he no maka the rules."

Apparently he had a lot of trouble because of it [although it his later poor-form joke about blacks that got him fired].

It's interesting that the requirement of Christian clerical celibacy was first invoked only in the 4th century AD at the The Council of Elvira [306 AD].

[Insert Elvira, Mistress of the Dark joke here.]

This odd perception of the natural activity of sexual intercourse as sinful, and the corollary of women as evil/unclean, has caused no end of suffering for humanity across many different religions and cultures.
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: Pope Down

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.


Guardian : Ratzinger retired after inquiry into 'Vatican gay officials'
A potentially explosive report has linked the resignation of Pope Benedict XVI to the discovery of a network of gay prelates in the Vatican, some of whom – the report said – were being blackmailed by outsiders.
Told you guys, he walks funny :lol: :lol: :lol:

Pope's staff decline to confirm or deny La Repubblica claims linking 'Vatileaks' affair and discovery of 'blackmailed gay clergy'


.
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Nonc Hilaire
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Re: Pope Down

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Endovelico wrote:Will the RCC ever realize that their problem with paedophilia has its roots on their celibacy rules and the way they repress sexuality among their student priests? Boys who cannot express normally their sexuality and are taught to think that sex must be repressed will grow up with an unsolved problem of sexuality. Some of them will try to solve their adolescent sexual frustration as grownups, and that leads to paedophilia. An end to celibacy and an encouragement to guiltless masturbation as youngsters as well as responsible sex with girls of their age, would quickly solve the paedophilic tendencies in the Church. And would make them a lot more competent to hear confession... :twisted:
This is not true, except for the last sentence. Other religions and cultures who value celibacy are not overrun with pedophiles, and there are plenty of secular and Protestant pedophiles. There are also plenty of Catholic clergy who find themselves unable to keep their vows and have sexual relations with consenting adults.

I imagine that pedophilia is most common among sexually active married couples with children, both in child abuse and incest between siblings. I also imagine most priests manage to remain celibate, and I am a Wesleyan Protestant and not a defensive RC apologist.

The problem is that an criminal network developed because the Church administration enabled it. The RC church created a powerful safe haven for pedophiles, but celibacy did not cause the pedophilia.
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: Pope Down

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:
Endovelico wrote:Will the RCC ever realize that their problem with paedophilia has its roots on their celibacy rules and the way they repress sexuality among their student priests? Boys who cannot express normally their sexuality and are taught to think that sex must be repressed will grow up with an unsolved problem of sexuality. Some of them will try to solve their adolescent sexual frustration as grownups, and that leads to paedophilia. An end to celibacy and an encouragement to guiltless masturbation as youngsters as well as responsible sex with girls of their age, would quickly solve the paedophilic tendencies in the Church. And would make them a lot more competent to hear confession... :twisted:
This is not true, except for the last sentence. Other religions and cultures who value celibacy are not overrun with pedophiles, and there are plenty of secular and Protestant pedophiles. There are also plenty of Catholic clergy who find themselves unable to keep their vows and have sexual relations with consenting adults.

I imagine that pedophilia is most common among sexually active married couples with children, both in child abuse and incest between siblings. I also imagine most priests manage to remain celibate, and I am a Wesleyan Protestant and not a defensive RC apologist.

The problem is that an criminal network developed because the Church administration enabled it. The RC church created a powerful safe haven for pedophiles, but celibacy did not cause the pedophilia.

.

Don't understand what the fuss is about .. apparently, in western culture, now, one has to be proud if one is homosexual .. and .. homosexuals, according to western culture now, is good and equal to somebody who loves woman

so , folks , what is wrong if pretty much all RC hierarchy is homosexual ? ? why should that be something ashamed of, why not be proud of it

Poor Ahmadinejat .. poor Ahmadinejat .. he makes more and more sense :lol: :lol:


BTW

.

Citing unnamed sources, the report by the Italian newspaper La Repubblica on Thursday, however, said that the pontiff decided to resign after an internal church probe informed the him about a series of blackmails, grafts and underground gay sex in the Vatican.

The report stated that three cardinals, including the former chief of the Vatican’s secret services, were asked to verify the allegations of financial impropriety, cronyism and corruption brought up by the publication of confidential papal papers in the scandal known as “Vatileaks.”

According to the report, the three cardinals reported their findings to the pope on December 17, 2012 in two red-leatherbound volumes, almost 300-pages long, which contained "an exact map of the mischief and the bad fish" inside the Holy See.


"It was on that day, with those papers on his desk, that Benedict XVI took the decision he had mulled over for so long," the report noted.

.



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noddy
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Re: Pope Down

Post by noddy »

gobbeldy gook azari.

i can think of nothing more pathetic than someone who has only their genital shape and/or usage thereof to be proud of... sad people.

the "gay pride" thing is a load of stupid that sprung up against an equally big load of stupid which is "gay hate".

gays being normalised is mostly whats happening away from the vocal extremes and normalised is boring... you get pride from what you contribute to society and not from your bedroom antics.

the fundie conservatives and the gay agenda progressives dominate the conversation with each others fears of slippery slopes and they dominate the media time but in the real world i find very few gays or straights who waste as much mind space and energy on this.

both groups have been around since the dawn of time and despite the protests of both, the rest of us have got on with our own lives and our own hormonal urges.
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Ibrahim
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Re: Pope Down

Post by Ibrahim »

Nastarana wrote:The cardinal answered the question she should have asked, which is what must the Catholic Church do now about the sexual abuse scandal. I though his answer was straightforward, make sure sexual criminals are not graduating from seminaries. I rather think his remarks about African communities not tolerating gays was a hint, if you will, that in Africa, the heirarchy has its ways of keeping candidates it deems undesireable out of the priesthood.
You mean by putting tires around openly homosexual peoples' necks and lighting them on fire? Because that is something that you will see in African countries.



Turkman is wrong to even raise the issue of homosexuality, for two reasons:

1. it is not related to pedophilia.

2. its a distraction from the real problem of the sex abuse scandal, which was institutional coverup and abuse of power.


Moreover, is there some problem with homosexuals becoming priests in and of itself? All priests are supposed to be celibate (not to mention refrain from molesting children) so excluding homosexuals from the priesthood could serve no other purpose than malicious discrimination.


I'm not even asking Turkman to be some kind of campus radical here, I'm just asking for the PR version of Catholic doctrine. Don't conflate pedophilia with homosexuality and boast about the intolerance of African society towards homosexuals. Nobody expects a developing nation to be on par with San Francisco in terms of social egalitarianism, but that is to be understood and improved upon, not celebrated as a corrective for an unrelated problem.




What I hope the next pope will do is get the American church out of politics and back to caring for the poor and educating our young.
Caring for the poor and educacting the young is political. And religious. Gustavo Gutierrez wrote famously on that point from a Catholic perspective.
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