Steers, Queers, and Chicks with Sticks | LGBTetcetera

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NapLajoieonSteroids
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Re: The Gay Marriage Issue

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

As Bertrand Russell observed, “But for children, there would be no need of any institution concerned with sex. It is through children alone that sexual relations become of importance to society, and worthy to be taken cognizance of by a legal institution.” What is now in question, with these two separate institutions, is the commodification of children. Leave aside joint-adoptions- same sex pairings have no ability to procreate, but not every couple will want to raise children not of their seed; as marriage is founded on child and filiation, it will be unjust not to accommodate the new situation. So laws, statues or regulations restricting infertility treatments, the sale of human gametes and embryos, and the outlawing of gestational surrogacy must fall by the wayside as well. Of course, both partners may want to pass along genetic material, so we will need cloning and genetic modification to be legally available so that they may have their designer babies too.

This is all very expensive and puts a price on the human body- those surrogates, those willing to sell eggs, the designer children pressured to be a certain way...it is the 21st century form of slavery.

I wish I could say this was alarmist; but if you don't see the writing on the wall, I feel bad for you. You can't have one without the other hand, no matter how you stretch it.
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Enki
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Re: The Gay Marriage Issue

Post by Enki »

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:As Bertrand Russell observed, “But for children, there would be no need of any institution concerned with sex. It is through children alone that sexual relations become of importance to society, and worthy to be taken cognizance of by a legal institution.” What is now in question, with these two separate institutions, is the commodification of children. Leave aside joint-adoptions- same sex pairings have no ability to procreate, but not every couple will want to raise children not of their seed; as marriage is founded on child and filiation, it will be unjust not to accommodate the new situation. So laws, statues or regulations restricting infertility treatments, the sale of human gametes and embryos, and the outlawing of gestational surrogacy must fall by the wayside as well. Of course, both partners may want to pass along genetic material, so we will need cloning and genetic modification to be legally available so that they may have their designer babies too.

This is all very expensive and puts a price on the human body- those surrogates, those willing to sell eggs, the designer children pressured to be a certain way...it is the 21st century form of slavery.

I wish I could say this was alarmist; but if you don't see the writing on the wall, I feel bad for you. You can't have one without the other hand, no matter how you stretch it.
This is one of the least significant ways in which we are moving to a slave state. Income inequality and the rise of the interest rates on student loans are far more immediately impactful to enslave large portions of our society. "Go to school, take on this mammoth debt, but don't expect there to be a job that will pay off those loans when you get out."
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Demon of Undoing
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Re: The Gay Marriage Issue

Post by Demon of Undoing »

Lord, help the poor conservative of weak faith, for whom any change is a threat to kill God.

Ballyhoo aside, this is not the logical step to outlaw religion. It is at the worst a step to possibly take away the authority of every Joe Bob from Umpteyfratz Bible College to marry unknown people as he pleases. Your church doesn't approve of gay marriage and doesn't want to perform them? Ok. Don't perform any marriages. Or have a beautiful church ceremony that's wonderfully symbolic and then take ten minutes at the courthouse to sign a license. The horror. You can see how this leads directly to Bergen- Belsen. Seriously, the only way that could happen is with MrPs surveilance network, anyway.

If I was a pastor against gay marriage, I might fairly leap at the chance to make a statement- I will not perform a ceremony whose sanctity has been destroyed by the usurpation of gods power to civil authorities, blah blah. Just use your stupid Moron script. I'm sure they puked out tons of that rhetoric, right up until their prophet had a " revelation" in the last hour, which let them know that God now thinks the previously indispensable institution of polygamy is now forbidden. Just in time for statehood, wot? You can clearly see that the Feds destroyed Morons in one fell swoop that day. So much so that their favorite hairpiece just made a bid for president.

What about thinking God needs you for people to believe in Him is attractive? I don't get it. Nothing about any law makes it impossible to believe in Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Paul preached it far and wide under pain of death. What makes you think you deserve a mega church and infinite state/ cultural approval? For Gods sakes, you had it for near two centuries, and you turned it into Christian rock and Joel Osteen.
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Alexis
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Re: The Gay Marriage Issue

Post by Alexis »

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:What is now in question, with these two separate institutions, is the commodification of children.
(...)
This is all very expensive and puts a price on the human body- those surrogates, those willing to sell eggs, the designer children pressured to be a certain way...it is the 21st century form of slavery.
Bingo!

This is the issue with homosexual "marriage"... Issue which does not exist with civil union, which enables a homosexual couple to share and inherit property, that is what they need in order to ensure the survivor from such a pair does not end up in financial distress when the other one has passed away.

Marriage on the other hand is in a fundamental way about children. And the only way for a homo couple to get children is to infringe on the right of other persons: at a minimum the child who will not get two role models father+mother as psychologists recognize is necessary for their best development.

Note that homosexuals are not responsible for the mindframe "I have a right to my own child!"... That unhealthy and selfish inversion of the right of any child to have a father and a mother -including if by adoption- has not begun and is not in the least restricted to homosexuals. The issue is much larger.
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Alexis
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Re: The Gay Marriage Issue

Post by Alexis »

Demon of Undoing wrote:Your church doesn't approve of gay marriage and doesn't want to perform them? Ok. Don't perform any marriages. Or have a beautiful church ceremony that's wonderfully symbolic and then take ten minutes at the courthouse to sign a license. The horror.
I don't understand this point about "restriction of religious freedom", which strongly looks like a total non-issue.

Here in France only the State can register legally binding marriages. That has been true since the Revolution... this is not exactly news, and neither Catholics nor any other believers are suffering persecution as a result.

That's why all religious marriages happen after that legal formality of going to townhall and getting these papers in order. From the point of view of legal registers, Catholic marriage e.g. is a non-event.

From the point of view of believers, it is THE event. To take an example, I know that I could get divorce relatively easily, just like my wife could get divorce relatively easily. From the Lord's point of view however, there is no such thing as divorce.

Legally registered marriage is but a contract. Religious marriage is a commitment engaging the whole person towards another, for life, before God.

Take your pick at which one is most important! :lol:
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Marcus
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Re: The Gay Marriage Issue

Post by Marcus »

Alexis wrote:Legally registered marriage is but a contract. Religious marriage is a commitment engaging the whole person towards another, for life, before God. . .
Well said, Alexis, to which I'd add ". . before God and in the context of community."
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Typhoon
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Re: The Gay Marriage Issue

Post by Typhoon »

Japan is similar to France in that civil marriage registration by the couple is required at a Japanese municipal government office.

Only this civil registration constitutes a legal marriage, a Shinto or faux-Christian ceremony is optional but common.

Gay couples are not currently permitted civil marriage registration. Some instead use the process of adoption with regards to benefits, inheritance, etc.

I don't think that marriage is all about children.

However, given the track record of heterosexual marriage with regards to child rearing, e.g., divorce, the prevalence of single mothers, etc., I doubt that the ~ 3% of the population that is gay could do much worse.
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Mr. Perfect
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Re: The Gay Marriage Issue

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Enki wrote: This is one of the least significant ways in which we are moving to a slave state. Income inequality and the rise of the interest rates on student loans are far more immediately impactful to enslave large portions of our society. "Go to school, take on this mammoth debt, but don't expect there to be a job that will pay off those loans when you get out."
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: The Gay Marriage Issue

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Mr. Perfect wrote:.
Enki wrote:.


This is one of the least significant ways in which we are moving to a slave state. Income inequality and the rise of the interest rates on student loans are far more immediately impactful to enslave large portions of our society. "Go to school, take on this mammoth debt, but don't expect there to be a job that will pay off those loans when you get out."

.

Elect Democrats, don't be surprised at the inevitable results.


.



Government should have a "General IQ Exam" , anybody over a certain mark, should get all education paid by government .. and .. cancel all "student loan" programs


You talented, your education paid by society .. you not as talented, you better not waste your time and government money, become plumber and electrician, trade




.
Mr. Perfect
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Re: The Gay Marriage Issue

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Demon of Undoing wrote:Lord, help the poor conservative of weak faith, for whom any change is a threat to kill God.
This is a completely ignorant strawman, no one is arguing that God can be killed, they are merely arguing for their right to religious belief and practice, as written expressly into the US Constitution.
Ballyhoo aside, this is not the logical step to outlaw religion.
Already got a precedent. Already underway. Already happened before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Corpo ... ted_States
It is at the worst a step to possibly take away the authority of every Joe Bob from Umpteyfratz Bible College to marry unknown people as he pleases.
What bible college did Peter go to.
Your church doesn't approve of gay marriage and doesn't want to perform them? Ok. Don't perform any marriages.
Why.
Or have a beautiful church ceremony that's wonderfully symbolic and then take ten minutes at the courthouse to sign a license. The horror.
When the gays sue to have the ceremony then the results become inevitable.
You can see how this leads directly to Bergen- Belsen. Seriously, the only way that could happen is with MrPs surveillance network, anyway.
Actually there is already a network in place, the legal registries for all these churches. As gay people sue each one they get dissolved one by one by one.
If I was a pastor against gay marriage, I might fairly leap at the chance to make a statement- I will not perform a ceremony whose sanctity has been destroyed by the usurpation of gods power to civil authorities, blah blah. Just use your stupid Moron script. I'm sure they puked out tons of that rhetoric, right up until their prophet had a " revelation" in the last hour, which let them know that God now thinks the previously indispensable institution of polygamy is now forbidden. Just in time for statehood, wot? You can clearly see that the Feds destroyed Morons in one fell swoop that day. So much so that their favorite hairpiece just made a bid for president.
Sure. And black people are President now so who cares about slavery. Talk about fighting the last wars. All's well that ends well.
What about thinking God needs you for people to believe in Him is attractive? I don't get it. Nothing about any law makes it impossible to believe in Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
It just makes it illegal. Which may be ironic considering what this country was founded on.
Paul preached it far and wide under pain of death.

And that was a terrible thing.
What makes you think you deserve a mega church and infinite state approval
God given rights, earned by the shedding of blood.
state/ cultural approval?
Two entirely different things.
For Gods sakes, you had it for near two centuries, and you turned it into Christian rock and Joel Osteen.
That's freedom for you. Other people use freedom to smoke pot infinitely and watch porn all day. The nature of freedom my young Trotskyite.
Last edited by Mr. Perfect on Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Enki
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Re: The Gay Marriage Issue

Post by Enki »

I keep telling you Mr. Perfect, the devil's got no reason to come for your religion. By trying to make the government merge with Christianity, the right-wing is damaging Christianity far more than banning it ever could. Coopting it is a much more diabolical goal than trying to suppress it. It only grows when suppressed, it languishes when it's coopted.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Enki
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Re: The Gay Marriage Issue

Post by Enki »

I keep telling you Mr. Perfect, the devil's got no reason to come for your religion. By trying to make the government merge with Christianity, the right-wing is damaging Christianity far more than banning it ever could. Coopting it is a much more diabolical goal than trying to suppress it. It only grows when suppressed, it languishes when it's coopted. Those that don't know much about it think that Christianity is about being greedy, slaughtering brown people, punching faggots and raping little boys.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
Mr. Perfect
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Re: The Gay Marriage Issue

Post by Mr. Perfect »

The world thrives on strawmen. The devil doesn't need to lift a finger when you guys do the work for him. This isn't going to end the way you think it will.
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NapLajoieonSteroids
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Re: The Gay Marriage Issue

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

Enki wrote:
This is one of the least significant ways in which we are moving to a slave state.
So it's a significant move towards a slave state.
Income inequality and the rise of the interest rates on student loans are far more immediately impactful to enslave large portions of our society. "Go to school, take on this mammoth debt, but don't expect there to be a job that will pay off those loans when you get out."
Income inequality and student loans?

So placing wombs, gametes and eggs, and the like in the market is not "big deal" slavery, but interest rates are...gotcha.
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Re: The Gay Marriage Issue

Post by Simple Minded »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Government should have a "General IQ Exam" , anybody over a certain mark, should get all education paid by government .. and .. cancel all "student loan" programs

You talented, your education paid by society .. you not as talented, you better not waste your time and government money, become plumber and electrician, trade.
This seems to imply that IQ tests are a valid measure of intelligence. Very debatable. Lots of types of intelligence/skills out there. But what about creativity, entrepreneurship, initiative, aptitude, community spirit, ability to coach/nuture, etc?

From there, it will be a short step to testing for eugenics/breeding privileges due to health care costs/environment/social responsibility. Which I expect will come back into fashion within 15 years.

Will better data and scientific selection make future generations better?

Back on my home planet, borrowing money you could not afford to pay back was considered somewhat of an IQ test. I think the old attitudes regarding debt/credit are coming back also.
Last edited by Simple Minded on Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Enki
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Re: The Gay Marriage Issue

Post by Enki »

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
Enki wrote:
This is one of the least significant ways in which we are moving to a slave state.
So it's a significant move towards a slave state.
Honestly i think that it's nonsense. The market in children is the oldest market in the world. Debt is based off of the ownership of children. Acting like suddenly the ownership of children will be a thing because gay couples will want to adopt or inseminate or whatever, is seriously naive. The ownership of other people and their time is the very basis of what money is.
Income inequality and the rise of the interest rates on student loans are far more immediately impactful to enslave large portions of our society. "Go to school, take on this mammoth debt, but don't expect there to be a job that will pay off those loans when you get out."
Income inequality and student loans?

So placing wombs, gametes and eggs, and the like in the market is not "big deal" slavery, but interest rates are...gotcha.
[/quote]

Please, tell me a time when wombs were not on the market. I'll wait.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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NapLajoieonSteroids
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Re: The Gay Marriage Issue

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

Alexis wrote:Note that homosexuals are not responsible for the mindframe "I have a right to my own child!"... That unhealthy and selfish inversion of the right of any child to have a father and a mother -including if by adoption- has not begun and is not in the least restricted to homosexuals. The issue is much larger.
That's a very good point, as well as the one you made in your next post.
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NapLajoieonSteroids
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Re: The Gay Marriage Issue

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

Enki wrote:
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
Enki wrote:
This is one of the least significant ways in which we are moving to a slave state.
So it's a significant move towards a slave state.
Honestly i think that it's nonsense.


Then why did you say it was a significant way in which we are moving to a slave state?

Or do you usually say things that you don't mean?
Please, tell me a time when wombs were not on the market. I'll wait.
Wait for what? It's one of the ethical principles in Western law, here's the French Civil Code for example:

(Article 16-1) “The human body is inviolable. The human body, its elements and its products may not form the subject of a patrimonial right”

(Article 16-5)“Agreements that have the effect of bestowing a patrimonial value to the human body, its elements or products are void”

(Article 16-6)“No remuneration may be granted to a person who consents to an experimentation on himself, to the taking of elements of his body or to the collection of products thereof.”

(Article 16-7) “All agreements relating to procreation or gestation on account of a third party are void.”

Then, there is the catch-all provision of Article 1128: “Only things in commerce can be the subject of an agreement.” Thus, human gametes or embryos cannot be owned, or form the subject-matter of a contract. Similar provisions exist throughout Europe, which is why Europeans travel to the US for fertility matters with our rather lax standards.

And now we know for a fact, that every jurisdiction which has adopted same sex unions in the civic institute of marriage have also permitted human gametes to be treated as articles of commerce or tolerated a market in babies, through surrogate gestation, assisted reproduction and joint adoption by same-sex couples.

The selling of bodies and ownership over them is certainly an evil, one, I thought well recognized in American history; but I guess I was wrong.
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Enki
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Re: The Gay Marriage Issue

Post by Enki »

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: Then why did you say it was a significant way in which we are moving to a slave state?
Well, it's foundational to the slave state that already exists, the system of debt.
Or do you usually say things that you don't mean?
Are you very bright?
Please, tell me a time when wombs were not on the market. I'll wait.
Wait for what? It's one of the ethical principles in Western law, here's the French Civil Code for example:

(Article 16-1) “The human body is inviolable. The human body, its elements and its products may not form the subject of a patrimonial right”

(Article 16-5)“Agreements that have the effect of bestowing a patrimonial value to the human body, its elements or products are void”

(Article 16-6)“No remuneration may be granted to a person who consents to an experimentation on himself, to the taking of elements of his body or to the collection of products thereof.”

(Article 16-7) “All agreements relating to procreation or gestation on account of a third party are void.”

Then, there is the catch-all provision of Article 1128: “Only things in commerce can be the subject of an agreement.” Thus, human gametes or embryos cannot be owned, or form the subject-matter of a contract. Similar provisions exist throughout Europe, which is why Europeans travel to the US for fertility matters with our rather lax standards.

And now we know for a fact, that every jurisdiction which has adopted same sex unions in the civic institute of marriage have also permitted human gametes to be treated as articles of commerce or tolerated a market in babies, through surrogate gestation, assisted reproduction and joint adoption by same-sex couples.

The selling of bodies and ownership over them is certainly an evil, one, I thought well recognized in American history; but I guess I was wrong.
[/quote]

Debt is indenture, which is merely diet slavery.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
Mr. Perfect
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Re: The Gay Marriage Issue

Post by Mr. Perfect »

So I guess napster blew you out of the water on the market thing.

So Tinker guess who invented the student loan scheme and who herald it as among their great legacy accomplishments (Democrats).
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Mr. Perfect
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Re: The Gay Marriage Issue

Post by Mr. Perfect »

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: Or do you usually say things that you don't mean?
He says lots and lots of things he doesn't mean. Most of what he says he doesn't mean. Search his forum "mouse peeing on cotton".
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Ibrahim
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Re: The Gay Marriage Issue

Post by Ibrahim »

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:As Bertrand Russell observed, “But for children, there would be no need of any institution concerned with sex. It is through children alone that sexual relations become of importance to society, and worthy to be taken cognizance of by a legal institution.” What is now in question, with these two separate institutions, is the commodification of children. Leave aside joint-adoptions- same sex pairings have no ability to procreate, but not every couple will want to raise children not of their seed; as marriage is founded on child and filiation, it will be unjust not to accommodate the new situation.
Except that none of this is objectively true. Aside from adoption being an institution as old as recorded history and probably older, there is also the clear fact that many people both homosexual and heterosexual want an institution of marriage that is not connected to procreation at all. The opinion of Bertrand Russell or anyone else to the contrary is noted, but one opinion does not invalidate the other.

So laws, statues or regulations restricting infertility treatments, the sale of human gametes and embryos, and the outlawing of gestational surrogacy must fall by the wayside as well.


There is no basis for this claim whatsoever.
Ibrahim
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Re: The Gay Marriage Issue

Post by Ibrahim »

Huxley wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:You can't provide services that violate constitutional rights or basic human rights. I can't open a "no homos" adoption agency and more than I can open a "no dogs or Irishmen" restaurant. This is where Ron Paul style libertarians disagree, and I understand that, but private property doesn't trump basic human rights IMO.
Exhibit A for the conservative argument that same-sex marriage jeopardizes religious liberty.

The Ibrahims of the world would use anti-discrimination laws to crush public expressions of opposition to same-sex marriage by religious groups. Say goodbye not only to Catholic adoption services, but to Christian private high schools that prohibit gay relationships, Muslim photographers who refuse to take pictures at a same-sex wedding, and Mormon marital counselors who quaintly refrain from serving gay couples.

Perhaps in the future, America like Sweden will haul Christian pastors to court for preaching against what they regard as a sinful institution. This is the logical conclusion of treating opposition to same-sex marriage as tantamount to racial discrimination.

We can have same-sex marriage, or we can have religious liberty, but we apparently cannot have both. Ibrahim shows us why.

Southern Christian ministers preached in favor of slavery and Jim Crow in turn, but you don't see that very often today. Good or bad thing? Freedom infringed? Its hard to take the hyperventilating of American Christians pretending they are the persecuted ones seriously, but explain to me how anybody is prevented from homophobic preaching or statements? You can say "God hates fags" just the same as you can say "God placed us above the negro" or whatever other stupid thing a person might want to say. I was talking about active discrimination, like you can't open a burger joint that doesn't serve blacks or Swedes or homosexuals or Christians.
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Re: The Gay Marriage Issue

Post by YMix »

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Mr. Perfect
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Re: The Gay Marriage Issue

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Ibrahim wrote: Southern Christian ministers preached in favor of slavery and Jim Crow in turn, but you don't see that very often today. Good or bad thing? Freedom infringed? Its hard to take the hyperventilating of American Christians pretending they are the persecuted ones seriously, but explain to me how anybody is prevented from homophobic preaching or statements? You can say "God hates fags" just the same as you can say "God placed us above the negro" or whatever other stupid thing a person might want to say. I was talking about active discrimination, like you can't open a burger joint that doesn't serve blacks or Swedes or homosexuals or Christians.
Your buddy is laying it right out for you Berzer.
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