Steers, Queers, and Chicks with Sticks | LGBTetcetera

[Ibrahim]

The extremist on both the right and left have this in common.

A need, driven by some deep insecurities, to try and micromanage other people's behaviour.

That's true. You see a similar view from the new atheist left, so there is some parity here.

[Mr. Perfect]

Like I said, religion is just a cover for them to say whatever they want about things/people they hate, and do whatever they want in the interest of their own comfort. "I hate fags, so I assume Jesus also hated fags. I support the torture and murder of random browns, so I figure Jesus would be ok with that. I want to sit in my suburban home and just pile up consumer products and stuff my face with processed food while gates keep the poors and blacks out of my line of sight, and that's Jesus rewarding me for being such a good Christian."

I think ibs is creating an ersatz somethingrother. A whole bunch of thems that fit a neat stereotype that uniquely buy products, overeat processed foods, and live in segregated gated communities. The only ones that do that. And they all do it all of it.

I don't know that I've ever met anyone who thinks in stereotypes more than ibs.

Its a joke to everyone else in the world of all religious stripes. God as your personal concierge.

Do you know what people say about islam?

[Mr. Perfect]

This is the problem with these fundie Christian Republicans. They cannot distinguish between themselves and Jesus.

Citation needed.

They claim they want smaller government, but they want the government in your bedroom.

Citation needed.

They claim that they want the government to be more Christian but they oppose it caring for the poor.

Sure. No one said the government should do it. The gov't track record is abysmal anyway.

Jesus said a whole lot about caring for the poor.

That's true. He also said to do it in private and not tell anyone about it.

He didn't mention homosexuality even once.

I think that's true. The biblical teaching was so well established he didn't see fit to to alter it in the slightest. When he wanted to update and OT teaching boy he made sure to do it. He was very happy with what was taught, obviously.

Last I checked, lying was a sin.

True. You may want to stop doing it so much.

[Apollonius]

Speaking of march of history, it's interesting that jurisdictions legalizing GM are also no longer reproducing

If you go here:



Countries or areas whose population is projected to decrease between 2005 and 2050

http://www.atimes.com/atimes//Front_Pag ... lation.gif



... you'll see that the countries projected to lose population are mostly those with moderately to extremely homophobic attitudes, proving that persecuting and penalizing homosexuals is not going to do anything to boost birthrates.



The modern permutation of gay marriage was born from the prejudice of homophobic families.


I lived through and bear witness to the beginnings and height of the AIDS epidemic, where parents and other relatives who had long since stated emphatically that they wanted nothing to do with anyone who was a homosexual, might be in contact with the doctor long enough to demand that no one but them be allowed to see their dying son. Homes and businesses built from years of hardworking love, were suddenly treated as the undisputed property of people who had denounced and renounced them decades earlier


I have never seen such utterly shameful behaviour as demonstrated by so-called Christians (or Muslims, or Jews, or whatever they claimed to be) as the hatred these people managed to generate. They are cursed by the gods.




Personally, I could never quite figure out why the state has to even get involved with marriage*. But the right to love whom you will and leave a last will and testament to them is older and more sacred than anything you can quote me from the Bible or Koran.






* Allow me to digress just slightly and relate to you how heterosexual marriage can work.


I know people from all walks of life. A good friend of mine relates the story of how one of his colleagues was a complete and total slob: dirty clothes, sweat running from his armpits down his shirt, reeked of BO. He could never get a date. He finally made arrangements to pay a large sum of money for a wife. She was from Algeria and knew only Arabic, and some French (which helped get her through immigration).

One time my friend was asked if he would stay late and work the shift of this fellow, because he couldn't come to work. He had been arrested by the police after they broke down the door of his apartment and found his wife covered in blood and screaming in labour. He had been locking her inside the home to make sure that she had no contact with anyone except him. She had managed to get a hold of someone on the telephone in the emergency department of the hospital who knew French and the police were sent to investigate. She was black and blue from the waist down from this fellow having beaten her repeatedly, and nearly lost her life and the life of the baby in this incident.

Ain't heterosexual marriage grand?

[Enki]

No government bigger than the one in your bedroom.

[Demon of Undoing]

This might let Christianity be outlawed?

Good.

I dare you. I double dare you, mothaf*cka. Burn down every mega church , imprison every fake pastor from every POS " bible college" ever built. Make Christians pay taxes to preach or pray in public. Make door to door proselytizing a misdemeanor nationwide.

And just watch what happens. Just watch how many losers that are in it for the country club benefits become new agers or Amway salesmen or whatever else it is that unnecessary middle class people do. Watch how many stupid doctrines get relegated to poorly- remembered FB screenshot cringe pics of creation museums. See how many people just up and decide it wasn't their thing.

And then watch little underground acts of agape love assert themselves. You'll see people being fed in groups without permission. You'll see outlaw acts of compassion to widows and orphans. You'll see the faith of martyrs willing to burn rather than deny the truth.

I know from my history what happens when you persecute Christianity. It gets stronger. It happens because Christ is strongest where men are weakest. I believe it happens because Christ is in that kind of hard pressed, hunted to death faith, and not in the strength of our PACs.

Do I want it to happen if I could have my druthers? Absolutely not. I can think of ten white paper things I'd rather have happen. But whats coming is a radical destruction for lots of things, its going to be remarkably broad- based. Everybody is getting something they wont like.

Either way, the fiction that this is a Christian nation is a slander on Christianity.

[Typhoon]

. . .

He didn't mention homosexuality even once.

I think that's true. The biblical teaching was so well established he didn't see fit to to alter it in the slightest. When he wanted to update and OT teaching boy he made sure to do it. He was very happy with what was taught, obviously.

. . .

It never ceases to amaze how many people are privy to the thoughts and intentions of someone who may have existed in an obscure corner of our planet some 2000 years ago.

[Enki]

This might let Christianity be outlawed?

Good.

I dare you. I double dare you, mothaf*cka. Burn down every mega church , imprison every fake pastor from every POS " bible college" ever built. Make Christians pay taxes to preach or pray in public. Make door to door proselytizing a misdemeanor nationwide.

And just watch what happens. Just watch how many losers that are in it for the country club benefits become new agers or Amway salesmen or whatever else it is that unnecessary middle class people do. Watch how many stupid doctrines get relegated to poorly- remembered FB screenshot cringe pics of creation museums. See how many people just up and decide it wasn't their thing.

And then watch little underground acts of agape love assert themselves. You'll see people being fed in groups without permission. You'll see outlaw acts of compassion to widows and orphans. You'll see the faith of martyrs willing to burn rather than deny the truth.

I know from my history what happens when you persecute Christianity. It gets stronger. It happens because Christ is strongest where men are weakest. I believe it happens because Christ is in that kind of hard pressed, hunted to death faith, and not in the strength of our PACs.

Do I want it to happen if I could have my druthers? Absolutely not. I can think of ten white paper things I'd rather have happen. But whats coming is a radical destruction for lots of things, its going to be remarkably broad- based. Everybody is getting something they wont like.

Either way, the fiction that this is a Christian nation is a slander on Christianity.

Christianity is being persecuted the most in red states where they have laws against feeding the homeless, like in Houston or Orlando. It's amazing that the same politicians that do these sorts of things will claim they are devout Christians even though they are making the sermon on the mount illegal in their towns.

[Ibrahim]

This might let Christianity be outlawed?

Good.

I dare you. I double dare you, mothaf*cka. Burn down every mega church , imprison every fake pastor from every POS " bible college" ever built. Make Christians pay taxes to preach or pray in public. Make door to door proselytizing a misdemeanor nationwide.

And just watch what happens. Just watch how many losers that are in it for the country club benefits become new agers or Amway salesmen or whatever else it is that unnecessary middle class people do. Watch how many stupid doctrines get relegated to poorly- remembered FB screenshot cringe pics of creation museums. See how many people just up and decide it wasn't their thing.

And then watch little underground acts of agape love assert themselves. You'll see people being fed in groups without permission. You'll see outlaw acts of compassion to widows and orphans. You'll see the faith of martyrs willing to burn rather than deny the truth.

I know from my history what happens when you persecute Christianity. It gets stronger. It happens because Christ is strongest where men are weakest. I believe it happens because Christ is in that kind of hard pressed, hunted to death faith, and not in the strength of our PACs.

Do I want it to happen if I could have my druthers? Absolutely not. I can think of ten white paper things I'd rather have happen. But whats coming is a radical destruction for lots of things, its going to be remarkably broad- based. Everybody is getting something they wont like.

Either way, the fiction that this is a Christian nation is a slander on Christianity.

Christianity is being persecuted the most in red states where they have laws against feeding the homeless, like in Houston or Orlando. It's amazing that the same politicians that do these sorts of things will claim they are devout Christians even though they are making the sermon on the mount illegal in their towns.

I think I told this story before but I watched a cool documentary about Catholic priests from one of the border states (Texas?) who provided water and medical aid to migrating illegals. It included some ugly run-ins with the "Minutemen" vigilante border-defense group. Guess who come off better in that exchange?

The public political face of American Christianity is only a vocal minority of the American Christian population as a whole.

[Enki]

Yes, I saw some heartwrenching stuff about a guy who delivered water, and how the minutemen would poison the water.

[Huxley]

Sex After Christianity
Gay marriage is not just a social revolution but a cosmological one.
By Rod Dreher • April 11, 2013
The American Conservative

... All this is, in fact, a much bigger deal than most people on both sides realize, and for a reason that eludes even ardent opponents of gay rights. Back in 1993, a cover story in The Nation identified the gay-rights cause as the summit and keystone of the culture war:

All the crosscurrents of present-day liberation struggles are subsumed in the gay struggle. The gay moment is in some ways similar to the moment that other communities have experienced in the nation’s past, but it is also something more, because sexual identity is in crisis throughout the population, and gay people—at once the most conspicuous subjects and objects of the crisis—have been forced to invent a complete cosmology to grasp it. No one says the changes will come easily. But it’s just possible that a small and despised sexual minority will change America forever.

They were right, and though the word “cosmology” may strike readers as philosophically grandiose, its use now appears downright prophetic. The struggle for the rights of “a small and despised sexual minority” would not have succeeded if the old Christian cosmology had held: put bluntly, the gay-rights cause has succeeded precisely because the Christian cosmology has dissipated in the mind of the West.

Same-sex marriage strikes the decisive blow against the old order. The Nation’s triumphalist rhetoric from two decades ago is not overripe; the radicals appreciated what was at stake far better than did many—especially bourgeois apologists for same-sex marriage as a conservative phenomenon. Gay marriage will indeed change America forever, in ways that are only now becoming visible. For better or for worse, it will make ours a far less Christian culture. It already is doing exactly that. ...

... Gay marriage signifies the final triumph of the Sexual Revolution and the dethroning of Christianity because it denies the core concept of Christian anthropology. In classical Christian teaching, the divinely sanctioned union of male and female is an icon of the relationship of Christ to His church and ultimately of God to His creation. This is why gay marriage negates Christian cosmology, from which we derive our modern concept of human rights and other fundamental goods of modernity. Whether we can keep them in the post-Christian epoch remains to be seen.

It also remains to be seen whether we can keep Christianity without accepting Christian chastity. Sociologist Christian Smith’s research on what he has termed “moralistic therapeutic deism”—the feelgood, pseudo-Christianity that has supplanted the normative version of the faith in contemporary America—suggests that the task will be extremely difficult.

Conservative Christians have lost the fight over gay marriage and, as we have seen, did so decades before anyone even thought same-sex marriage was a possibility. Gay-marriage proponents succeeded so quickly because they showed the public that what they were fighting for was consonant with what most post-1960s Americans already believed about the meaning of sex and marriage. The question Western Christians face now is whether or not they are going to lose Christianity altogether in this new dispensation.

Too many of them think that same-sex marriage is merely a question of sexual ethics. They fail to see that gay marriage, and the concomitant collapse of marriage among poor and working-class heterosexuals, makes perfect sense given the autonomous individualism sacralized by modernity and embraced by contemporary culture—indeed, by many who call themselves Christians. They don’t grasp that Christianity, properly understood, is not a moralistic therapeutic adjunct to bourgeois individualism—a common response among American Christians, one denounced by Rieff in 2005 as “simply pathetic”—but is radically opposed to the cultural order (or disorder) that reigns today. ...

[Heracleum Persicum]

.


Sex After Christianity
Gay marriage is not just a social revolution but a cosmological one.
By Rod Dreher • April 11, 2013
The American Conservative

... All this is, in fact, a much bigger deal than most people on both sides realize, and for a reason that eludes even ardent opponents of gay rights. Back in 1993, a cover story in The Nation identified the gay-rights cause as the summit and keystone of the culture war:

All the crosscurrents of present-day liberation struggles are subsumed in the gay struggle. The gay moment is in some ways similar to the moment that other communities have experienced in the nation’s past, but it is also something more, because sexual identity is in crisis throughout the population, and gay people—at once the most conspicuous subjects and objects of the crisis—have been forced to invent a complete cosmology to grasp it. No one says the changes will come easily. But it’s just possible that a small and despised sexual minority will change America forever.

They were right, and though the word “cosmology” may strike readers as philosophically grandiose, its use now appears downright prophetic. The struggle for the rights of “a small and despised sexual minority” would not have succeeded if the old Christian cosmology had held: put bluntly, the gay-rights cause has succeeded precisely because the Christian cosmology has dissipated in the mind of the West.

Same-sex marriage strikes the decisive blow against the old order. The Nation’s triumphalist rhetoric from two decades ago is not overripe; the radicals appreciated what was at stake far better than did many—especially bourgeois apologists for same-sex marriage as a conservative phenomenon. Gay marriage will indeed change America forever, in ways that are only now becoming visible. For better or for worse, it will make ours a far less Christian culture. It already is doing exactly that. ...

... Gay marriage signifies the final triumph of the Sexual Revolution and the dethroning of Christianity because it denies the core concept of Christian anthropology. In classical Christian teaching, the divinely sanctioned union of male and female is an icon of the relationship of Christ to His church and ultimately of God to His creation. This is why gay marriage negates Christian cosmology, from which we derive our modern concept of human rights and other fundamental goods of modernity. Whether we can keep them in the post-Christian epoch remains to be seen.

It also remains to be seen whether we can keep Christianity without accepting Christian chastity. Sociologist Christian Smith’s research on what he has termed “moralistic therapeutic deism”—the feelgood, pseudo-Christianity that has supplanted the normative version of the faith in contemporary America—suggests that the task will be extremely difficult.

Conservative Christians have lost the fight over gay marriage and, as we have seen, did so decades before anyone even thought same-sex marriage was a possibility. Gay-marriage proponents succeeded so quickly because they showed the public that what they were fighting for was consonant with what most post-1960s Americans already believed about the meaning of sex and marriage. The question Western Christians face now is whether or not they are going to lose Christianity altogether in this new dispensation.

Too many of them think that same-sex marriage is merely a question of sexual ethics. They fail to see that gay marriage, and the concomitant collapse of marriage among poor and working-class heterosexuals, makes perfect sense given the autonomous individualism sacralized by modernity and embraced by contemporary culture—indeed, by many who call themselves Christians. They don’t grasp that Christianity, properly understood, is not a moralistic therapeutic adjunct to bourgeois individualism—a common response among American Christians, one denounced by Rieff in 2005 as “simply pathetic”—but is radically opposed to the cultural order (or disorder) that reigns today. ..


.

.

Very true and interesting article, thank you Huxley

Excellent analysis .. excellent analysis

could not say it better


Above article eloquently reasons and explains what I'm trying to say since so long

Gay marriage is ganging against western CHRISTIAN civilization and culture .. western civilization is dismantled, brick by brick





.

[Mr. Perfect]

This might let Christianity be outlawed?

Good.

Either way, the fiction that this is a Christian nation is a slander on Christianity.

I guess you're full on board "we are shackled by our freedoms".

BTW how is Christianity doing in Saudi Arabia.

[Mr. Perfect]

Christianity is being persecuted the most in red states where they have laws against feeding the homeless, like in Houston or Orlando. It's amazing that the same politicians that do these sorts of things will claim they are devout Christians even though they are making the sermon on the mount illegal in their towns.

It's so weird that you can hardly be honest about anything. Outlawing panhandling does not outlaw feeding the homeless.

[Enki]

Sex After Christianity
Gay marriage is not just a social revolution but a cosmological one.
By Rod Dreher • April 11, 2013
The American Conservative

... All this is, in fact, a much bigger deal than most people on both sides realize, and for a reason that eludes even ardent opponents of gay rights. Back in 1993, a cover story in The Nation identified the gay-rights cause as the summit and keystone of the culture war:

All the crosscurrents of present-day liberation struggles are subsumed in the gay struggle. The gay moment is in some ways similar to the moment that other communities have experienced in the nation’s past, but it is also something more, because sexual identity is in crisis throughout the population, and gay people—at once the most conspicuous subjects and objects of the crisis—have been forced to invent a complete cosmology to grasp it. No one says the changes will come easily. But it’s just possible that a small and despised sexual minority will change America forever.

They were right, and though the word “cosmology” may strike readers as philosophically grandiose, its use now appears downright prophetic. The struggle for the rights of “a small and despised sexual minority” would not have succeeded if the old Christian cosmology had held: put bluntly, the gay-rights cause has succeeded precisely because the Christian cosmology has dissipated in the mind of the West.

Same-sex marriage strikes the decisive blow against the old order. The Nation’s triumphalist rhetoric from two decades ago is not overripe; the radicals appreciated what was at stake far better than did many—especially bourgeois apologists for same-sex marriage as a conservative phenomenon. Gay marriage will indeed change America forever, in ways that are only now becoming visible. For better or for worse, it will make ours a far less Christian culture. It already is doing exactly that. ...

... Gay marriage signifies the final triumph of the Sexual Revolution and the dethroning of Christianity because it denies the core concept of Christian anthropology. In classical Christian teaching, the divinely sanctioned union of male and female is an icon of the relationship of Christ to His church and ultimately of God to His creation. This is why gay marriage negates Christian cosmology, from which we derive our modern concept of human rights and other fundamental goods of modernity. Whether we can keep them in the post-Christian epoch remains to be seen.

It also remains to be seen whether we can keep Christianity without accepting Christian chastity. Sociologist Christian Smith’s research on what he has termed “moralistic therapeutic deism”—the feelgood, pseudo-Christianity that has supplanted the normative version of the faith in contemporary America—suggests that the task will be extremely difficult.

Conservative Christians have lost the fight over gay marriage and, as we have seen, did so decades before anyone even thought same-sex marriage was a possibility. Gay-marriage proponents succeeded so quickly because they showed the public that what they were fighting for was consonant with what most post-1960s Americans already believed about the meaning of sex and marriage. The question Western Christians face now is whether or not they are going to lose Christianity altogether in this new dispensation.

Too many of them think that same-sex marriage is merely a question of sexual ethics. They fail to see that gay marriage, and the concomitant collapse of marriage among poor and working-class heterosexuals, makes perfect sense given the autonomous individualism sacralized by modernity and embraced by contemporary culture—indeed, by many who call themselves Christians. They don’t grasp that Christianity, properly understood, is not a moralistic therapeutic adjunct to bourgeois individualism—a common response among American Christians, one denounced by Rieff in 2005 as “simply pathetic”—but is radically opposed to the cultural order (or disorder) that reigns today. ...

It will probably make our culture MORE Christian since it's pretty anti-Christian now with all the people trying to tell us Christianity is a religion of hate and that it is THEIR job to bring down Christ's judgment upon us in the here and now.

If we focus on feeding the poor more and punishing homosexuals less, we cannot help but live in a greater state of agape then what we have now.

[Huxley]

It will probably make our culture MORE Christian since it's pretty anti-Christian now with all the people trying to tell us Christianity is a religion of hate and that it is THEIR job to bring down Christ's judgment upon us in the here and now.

If we focus on feeding the poor more and punishing homosexuals less, we cannot help but live in a greater state of agape then what we have now.

How about we start by allowing the Catholic Church to provide adoption services even if it refuses to place children with same-sex couples?

[Enki]

It will probably make our culture MORE Christian since it's pretty anti-Christian now with all the people trying to tell us Christianity is a religion of hate and that it is THEIR job to bring down Christ's judgment upon us in the here and now.

If we focus on feeding the poor more and punishing homosexuals less, we cannot help but live in a greater state of agape then what we have now.

How about we start by allowing the Catholic Church to provide adoption services even if it refuses to place children with same-sex couples?

No problem.

As long as it doesn't result in children not being adopted.

If the Catholic church believes that keeping kids in an orphanage is better than letting them be raised by homosexuals, they are insane. I have seen kids adopted by emotionally abusive straight couples. They would have been better off with a loving gay couple. I would probably say that letting the church have 'ownership' over an orphan is problematic. But then again having a state agency have 'ownership' over an orphan is just as detestable a situation. As long as whatever policy there is in place prioritizes the welfare of the child above all other considerations I do not care. If the church wanted to provide oversight over children and to guide potential Catholic adoptive parents to children, I don't see a problem with that. As long as the state doesn't preferentially weight the Catholic adoption services over others.

[Mr. Perfect]

Tinker, if you get to judge rich people and take their money certainly Christians are entitled to an opinion on well established biblical morality.

[Ibrahim]

It will probably make our culture MORE Christian since it's pretty anti-Christian now with all the people trying to tell us Christianity is a religion of hate and that it is THEIR job to bring down Christ's judgment upon us in the here and now.

If we focus on feeding the poor more and punishing homosexuals less, we cannot help but live in a greater state of agape then what we have now.

How about we start by allowing the Catholic Church to provide adoption services even if it refuses to place children with same-sex couples?

No problem.

As long as it doesn't result in children not being adopted.

If the Catholic church believes that keeping kids in an orphanage is better than letting them be raised by homosexuals, they are insane. I have seen kids adopted by emotionally abusive straight couples. They would have been better off with a loving gay couple. I would probably say that letting the church have 'ownership' over an orphan is problematic. But then again having a state agency have 'ownership' over an orphan is just as detestable a situation. As long as whatever policy there is in place prioritizes the welfare of the child above all other considerations I do not care. If the church wanted to provide oversight over children and to guide potential Catholic adoptive parents to children, I don't see a problem with that. As long as the state doesn't preferentially weight the Catholic adoption services over others.

You can't provide services that violate constitutional rights or basic human rights. I can't open a "no homos" adoption agency and more than I can open a "no dogs or Irishmen" restaurant. This is where Ron Paul style libertarians disagree, and I understand that, but private property doesn't trump basic human rights IMO.

[Demon of Undoing]

This might let Christianity be outlawed?

Good.

Either way, the fiction that this is a Christian nation is a slander on Christianity.

I guess you're full on board "we are shackled by our freedoms".

BTW how is Christianity doing in Saudi Arabia.

You didn't understand what Tinker was saying when he said that. I'm not going to educate you enough to make you see why the entire statement is irrelevant in this context.

So what you're telling me is, unless everywhere is as free as you imagine America to be, Christianity is doomed. People will forget Calvary, and God will just have to close up shop and go pimp his act in another universe, eh? Let heaven and hell decide that they both are satisfied, and illuminate the "no" on their vacancy signs?

[Huxley]

You can't provide services that violate constitutional rights or basic human rights. I can't open a "no homos" adoption agency and more than I can open a "no dogs or Irishmen" restaurant. This is where Ron Paul style libertarians disagree, and I understand that, but private property doesn't trump basic human rights IMO.

Exhibit A for the conservative argument that same-sex marriage jeopardizes religious liberty.

The Ibrahims of the world would use anti-discrimination laws to crush public expressions of opposition to same-sex marriage by religious groups. Say goodbye not only to Catholic adoption services, but to Christian private high schools that prohibit gay relationships, Muslim photographers who refuse to take pictures at a same-sex wedding, and Mormon marital counselors who quaintly refrain from serving gay couples.

Perhaps in the future, America like Sweden will haul Christian pastors to court for preaching against what they regard as a sinful institution. This is the logical conclusion of treating opposition to same-sex marriage as tantamount to racial discrimination.

We can have same-sex marriage, or we can have religious liberty, but we apparently cannot have both. Ibrahim shows us why.

[Heracleum Persicum]

You can't provide services that violate constitutional rights or basic human rights. I can't open a "no homos" adoption agency and more than I can open a "no dogs or Irishmen" restaurant. This is where Ron Paul style libertarians disagree, and I understand that, but private property doesn't trump basic human rights IMO.

Exhibit A for the conservative argument that same-sex marriage jeopardizes religious liberty.

The Ibrahims of the world would use anti-discrimination laws to crush public expressions of opposition to same-sex marriage by religious groups. Say goodbye not only to Catholic adoption services, but to Christian private high schools that prohibit gay relationships, Muslim photographers who refuse to take pictures at a same-sex wedding, and Mormon marital counselors who quaintly refrain from serving gay couples.

Perhaps in the future, America like Sweden will haul Christian pastors to court for preaching against what they regard as a sinful institution. This is the logical conclusion of treating opposition to same-sex marriage as tantamount to racial discrimination.

We can have same-sex marriage, or we can have religious liberty, but we apparently cannot have both. Ibrahim shows us why.


.

IMO, this heart of the matter here


Can a religion,

say Christianity,

SANITIZED ,

some stuff

in BIBLE

omitted

some changed

some outlawed

some new stuff interjected

some reinterpreted

and and and,

and

force-fed to civilization (still as) Christianity .. highjacking the comfort and morality of "good old days" CLASSIC (Coke) Christianity, fooling the grand ma this same "Pasta" as she used to make ?

Can Islam (of Mohamed), Koran, some "sura" deleted, some rewritten, some new stuff added and and .. and still call it Islam ? ? ?

That is charlatanry


Nothing wrong to change the bible or Koran

but

it ain't anymore Christianity or Islam .. as if Old & New Testament would be same religion, neglecting that ones G_D asking for "blood and Gold and Goat" the other asking for love and and


Yes, homos can live together, nobody is allowed to harm them .. that has been so last 10000 yrs in all the world, but why now wanting to destroy the institution of marriage which was meant to regulate the ownership of the common children .. what is the purpose of a man and another man marriage ? ?

Homosexuality is a "sexual abnormality" like many other biological abnormality in humans .. it ain't neither "preference" nor choice .. notion homosexuality same as heterosexuality rubbish.

This a destruction of Christianity .. what is replacing Christianity and is called again Christianity is NOT Christianity but a new religion .. the, dishonestly, by the backdoor, introducing new (rubbish) stuff into western culture and civilization by incorporation it into classic moral and historical pillar of western civilization, Christianity .. West is a Christian culture and civilization, all western laws are based on Christan values and and, corrupting those values is corrupting Christianity .. Western civilization being replaced with rubbish .. that was the reason for recent violent "cultural revolutions", China and Iran .. culture and civilization were corrupted and people revolted .. No, Mr. Perfect, Americans are not armed because of the criminals wanting to rub you, they armed because society is in disarray and a clash is coming

Looking forward (for case) a Christian suing state arguing definition of Christianity and forbidding the NEW religion calling itself Christians .. that will be same as homosexuals attacking marriage


You want homosexual Bishops and wedding and Popes and new sets of morals and and and .. no problem .. but it ain't Christianity and can not be called as such .. this will be in court and interesting to see the outcome




.

[Mr. Perfect]

Yes, I saw some heartwrenching stuff about a guy who delivered water, and how the minutemen would poison the water.

I saw a heartrending story about a poor homo boy who has been completely neglected by the city of San Francisco. I started a thread about it.

[Mr. Perfect]

You didn't understand what Tinker was saying when he said that.

I'm sure it's a real mystery.

I'm not going to educate you enough to make you see why the entire statement is irrelevant in this context.

So what you're telling me is, unless everywhere is as free as you imagine America to be, Christianity is doomed. People will forget Calvary, and God will just have to close up shop and go pimp his act in another universe, eh? Let heaven and hell decide that they both are satisfied, and illuminate the "no" on their vacancy signs?

Huxley covered it. It's real basic. In a few months or a few years, whatever, a homo couple is going to sue to get married in their church, and the gov;'t is going to say that if you don't marry the homo homo then you don't get to be a church anymore, just like if you don't rent to blacks you don't get to be in the rental business. Ibs put a bow on it just above. Your friends the Muslims will provide you with the legal precedent, ie in the late 1800's they dissolved the Muslim Church corporation out there in SLC for a number of years until they quit poly poly.

And you will have been a midwife in this process. Congratulations. Duped. What we know going forward is you'll applaud Christians on rail cars but if the gov't touches your porn you'll go medieval. Got it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapo_%28co ... on_camp%29

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

You can't provide services that violate constitutional rights or basic human rights. I can't open a "no homos" adoption agency and more than I can open a "no dogs or Irishmen" restaurant. This is where Ron Paul style libertarians disagree, and I understand that, but private property doesn't trump basic human rights IMO.

Exhibit A for the conservative argument that same-sex marriage jeopardizes religious liberty.

The Ibrahims of the world would use anti-discrimination laws to crush public expressions of opposition to same-sex marriage by religious groups. Say goodbye not only to Catholic adoption services, but to Christian private high schools that prohibit gay relationships, Muslim photographers who refuse to take pictures at a same-sex wedding, and Mormon marital counselors who quaintly refrain from serving gay couples.

Perhaps in the future, America like Sweden will haul Christian pastors to court for preaching against what they regard as a sinful institution. This is the logical conclusion of treating opposition to same-sex marriage as tantamount to racial discrimination.

We can have same-sex marriage, or we can have religious liberty, but we apparently cannot have both. Ibrahim shows us why.

Lord Acton summed up it pretty nicely:

“Civil and religious liberty are so commonly associated in people’s mouths, and are so rare in fact, that their definition is evidently as little understood as the principle of their connection. The point at which they unite, the common root from which they derive their sustenance, is the right of self-government. The modern theory, which has swept away every authority except that of the State, and has made the sovereign power irresistible by multiplying those who share it, is the enemy of that common freedom in which religious freedom is included. It condemns, as a State within the State, every inner group and community, class or corporation, administering its own affairs; and, by proclaiming the abolition of privileges, it emancipates the subjects of every such authority in order to transfer them exclusively to its own. It recognises liberty only in the individual, because it is only in the individual that liberty can be separated from authority, and the right of conditional obedience deprived of the security of a limited command. Under its sway, therefore, every man may profess his own religion more or less freely; but his religion is not free to administer its own laws. In other words, religious profession is free, but Church government is controlled. And where ecclesiastical authority is restricted, religious liberty is virtually denied.”