Obama, servant of evil

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YMix
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Re: Obama, servant of evil

Post by YMix »

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:What happened in the Gulf War was called a sign of weakness- those voices just weren't listened to; of course, they were referenced 13 years later when it came time to drag him out.
They were listened to because there wasn't anything else left to do in Iraq after 13 years of embargo and bombing. Plus, it looked good on Bush the Younger's resume.
What I found really weak is how many of the generals and people in command at the time (according to their own written accounts) were more concerned about their how they were being perceived then actually accomplishing anything. The obsession with avoiding Vietnam was ridiculous to me; and hindsight tells us that the first Bush's decision dragged out the violence, instability, and military actions.
The reluctance of 1990 and the eagerness of 2003 amounted, more or less, to the same thing. Slow death by embargo - fast death at the hands of the US army/local militias.
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Re: Obama, servant of evil

Post by Ibrahim »

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
YMix wrote:Before you people go any further, I'd like to remind you that, back in 1990, Saddam Hussein remained in power despite a crushing military defeat and he got to keep whatever weapons he had. I don't remember anybody calling that a sign of weakness on the part of Bush the Elder or the US Government.

As far as I can tell, the only thing that Assad has so far is a delay, provided that he hands the weapons over. The US can still invade, especially if Assad attempts to avoid giving up his arsenal. And there's nothing that the Russian Federation can do, unless it feels like taking on the USA itself. As things stand now, Assad has a delay, a war-torn country that would take decades to rebuild, an insurgency that he may or may not defeat and an overall weaker internal position. Plus, he has let the Kurds run loose in the north and that's a can of worms in and of itself.

We've come a long way from the "100-hour ground campaign" to "nothing short of total defeat and removal of the country's leader and government". A 12-year binge on shock and awe. No wonder some of you see this as weakness on Obama's part. I'm curious: if the threat of total defeat and removal of leadership stops working, what will you do? How will you up the ante?
What happened in the Gulf War was called a sign of weakness- those voices just weren't listened to; of course, they were referenced 13 years later when it came time to drag him out.

What I found really weak is how many of the generals and people in command at the time (according to their own written accounts) were more concerned about their how they were being perceived then actually accomplishing anything. The obsession with avoiding Vietnam was ridiculous to me; and hindsight tells us that the first Bush's decision dragged out the violence, instability, and military actions.

Was it actually a good, strong decision looking back?
It all comes down to the usual problem of the gap between US military capabilities and what can actually be accomplished with them. In terms of killing people and wrecking fixtures the US is strong, but they are unable to implement their desired political outcome time and again. Gulf War 1 is a modest success because the US didn't really try to do anything but blow up a bunch of MiGs and T-72s, sorry, gassed Kurds. Gulf War 2 was much more ambitious, and thus a total failure from every angle, but not a slight against US military power in and of itself.
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Re: Obama, servant of evil

Post by Demon of Undoing »

It was absolutely considered a sign of weakness. The weakness of the international community. There was no consensus at all on Bush I going to Baghdad, the coalition would have come apart and possibly began fighting within itself. George had authority to clear Kuwait and knew anything further was a poo storm of epic consequences.
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Re: Obama, servant of evil

Post by Endovelico »

The main problem is people still believing the old Clausewitz saying, that war is the continuation of politics by other means. It isn't. War is no longer an acceptable means to further one's policies. It costs too much, it is too destructive, and the winner is just another of the losers. War is acceptable only as a last resort to defending oneself against open aggression. Real aggression, not just imaginary aggression. Of course, accepting this requires a certain degree of maturity, which the American people, as a whole, has not yet acquired. Vietnam might have been a turning point, but far too many Americans continued believing that the US had won that war just because there were more Vietnamese killed than Americans. Beating your enemy to a pulp in order to obtain what you want, is ineffective and primitive. The ideal approach is what one calls in chess "zugzwang", when the enemy is forced into defeat, no matter what he does. Does the US want to have access to Middle Eastern oil and prevent other countries from controlling it? Then create a system of incentives and disincentives that will lead local governments to prefer doing business with you. Invading them is not an efficient alternative. Neither is persistently threaten to do so. And be sure to publicly show respect for the other side. Always. A country will do anything as long as it seems it does so out of its own choice. Time for Americans to start choosing their politicians on the basis of their understanding these simple principles.
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Re: Obama, servant of evil

Post by YMix »

Endovelico wrote:And be sure to publicly show respect for the other side. Always. A country will do anything as long as it seems it does so out of its own choice. Time for Americans to start choosing their politicians on the basis of their understanding these simple principles.
That would be a sign of weakness.
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Re: Obama, servant of evil

Post by Endovelico »

YMix wrote:
Endovelico wrote:And be sure to publicly show respect for the other side. Always. A country will do anything as long as it seems it does so out of its own choice. Time for Americans to start choosing their politicians on the basis of their understanding these simple principles.
That would be a sign of weakness.
I thought it would be a sign of maturity.
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Re: Obama, servant of evil

Post by Ibrahim »

Demon of Undoing wrote:It was absolutely considered a sign of weakness. The weakness of the international community. There was no consensus at all on Bush I going to Baghdad, the coalition would have come apart and possibly began fighting within itself. George had authority to clear Kuwait and knew anything further was a poo storm of epic consequences.

How do countries that didn't get involved in either Gulf War look weak? Finland is weak because it didn't screw over the Kurds in '91 then provoke a sectarian war under false pretenses in 2003? You have to do something and fail to look weak.
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Re: Obama, servant of evil

Post by Demon of Undoing »

They don't look weak, any more than you look weak compared to pretty much anybody on either side of an NFL game. You're just a non- player.

Unless Russia invades again or F1 becomes their game again, Finns don't matter in this conversation.
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Re: Obama, servant of evil

Post by Ibrahim »

Demon of Undoing wrote:They don't look weak, any more than you look weak compared to pretty much anybody on either side of an NFL game. You're just a non- player.

Unless Russia invades again or F1 becomes their game again, Finns don't matter in this conversation.
Well this is just an odd way or re-stating my point, which is that nobody looks "weak" by not playing, and the 'roided-up criminals of an NFL team are a good analogy for the US military, which unfortunately finds itself in a soccer league. Its the obsession with both always being an actor and "looking strong" that has destroyed US foreign policy and credibility, with no tangible benefits to the national interest.
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Re: Obama, servant of evil

Post by Parodite »

Where the US failed in my view, is that they allowed economic and political interests to enter the equation in cases where humanitarian reasons in and of themselves would have, should have, and could have sufficed to make a case for action. What action is then the only question left. Also depending on who is willing and able to join the operation. With every operation there is a risk of failure, even if the goals are modest. A lesson would be to never promise too much. Maybe only half of what you reasonably expect to achieve, to stay on the safe side. But Americans want gold. Silver, bronze or even less is more realistic.
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Re: Obama, servant of evil

Post by Demon of Undoing »

Ibrahim wrote:
Demon of Undoing wrote:They don't look weak, any more than you look weak compared to pretty much anybody on either side of an NFL game. You're just a non- player.

Unless Russia invades again or F1 becomes their game again, Finns don't matter in this conversation.
Well this is just an odd way or re-stating my point, which is that nobody looks "weak" by not playing, and the 'roided-up criminals of an NFL team are a good analogy for the US military, which unfortunately finds itself in a soccer league. Its the obsession with both always being an actor and "looking strong" that has destroyed US foreign policy and credibility, with no tangible benefits to the national interest.

I agree in principle, and I'm a pretty solid isolationist in this.

However...

Playing devil's advocate here, Finland has little concern over as broad a spectrum as we do. In fact, nobody does. Leaving aside all the truthiness to the God- given greatness of our American way of life, fact is that " trade with all, quarrel with none" may be an optimistic way of maintaining an empire ( there, I said it). But that inflated sense of entitlement ain't going to feed itself, so there we are in Couscousjihad, Yemen.

Yes, yes, I know you're going to retort with something reasonable, like, " You don't have to hold the world at gunpoint to get oil blah blah blah". Whatever, Oprah. This is GTA V territory, biiiiotch.
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Optimism can be a difficult way to run a Republic or Empire.

Post by monster_gardener »

Demon of Undoing wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Demon of Undoing wrote:They don't look weak, any more than you look weak compared to pretty much anybody on either side of an NFL game. You're just a non- player.

Unless Russia invades again or F1 becomes their game again, Finns don't matter in this conversation.
Well this is just an odd way or re-stating my point, which is that nobody looks "weak" by not playing, and the 'roided-up criminals of an NFL team are a good analogy for the US military, which unfortunately finds itself in a soccer league. Its the obsession with both always being an actor and "looking strong" that has destroyed US foreign policy and credibility, with no tangible benefits to the national interest.

I agree in principle, and I'm a pretty solid isolationist in this.

However...

Playing devil's advocate here, Finland has little concern over as broad a spectrum as we do. In fact, nobody does. Leaving aside all the truthiness to the God- given greatness of our American way of life, fact is that " trade with all, quarrel with none" may be an optimistic way of maintaining an empire ( there, I said it). But that inflated sense of entitlement ain't going to feed itself, so there we are in Couscousjihad, Yemen.

Yes, yes, I know you're going to retort with something reasonable, like, " You don't have to hold the world at gunpoint to get oil blah blah blah". Whatever, Oprah. This is GTA V territory, biiiiotch.
Thank You VERY MUCH for your post, Bezerk Savant Demon of Undoing.
" trade with all, quarrel with none" may be an optimistic way of maintaining an empire ( there, I said it).
Quite correct.........

Definitely an optimistic :roll: way of maintaining a small or even a large republic when the Big and the Bad Boyz want to 'play' :twisted: :evil: :roll:

Remembering the war with the vile Barbary Pirates and the lead up to the War of 1812 & World War 1........

We wanted to just trade but the Barbary Pirates, the British, the French and Germans did NOT agree..........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_181 ... ith_France
But that inflated sense of entitlement
FWIW we aren't the first or only ones with that problem.......

Jihadi/Traditional Muslims have it bad: "Best of Peoples" crap written in the Koran ........

http://www.quranbrowser.com/cgi/bin/get ... ng=003:110

Or as expressed by the Pirates.......
In March 1785, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams went to London to negotiate with Tripoli's envoy, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman (or Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). When they enquired "concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury", the ambassador replied:

It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War

Brits could be bad about enslaving too: kidnapping American sailors off merchantman ships and more....

Though nowhere near as bad as the vile Barbary Pirates

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812#Impressment
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Re: Obama, servant of evil

Post by Ibrahim »

Demon of Undoing wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Demon of Undoing wrote:They don't look weak, any more than you look weak compared to pretty much anybody on either side of an NFL game. You're just a non- player.

Unless Russia invades again or F1 becomes their game again, Finns don't matter in this conversation.
Well this is just an odd way or re-stating my point, which is that nobody looks "weak" by not playing, and the 'roided-up criminals of an NFL team are a good analogy for the US military, which unfortunately finds itself in a soccer league. Its the obsession with both always being an actor and "looking strong" that has destroyed US foreign policy and credibility, with no tangible benefits to the national interest.

I agree in principle, and I'm a pretty solid isolationist in this.

However...

Playing devil's advocate here, Finland has little concern over as broad a spectrum as we do. In fact, nobody does. Leaving aside all the truthiness to the God- given greatness of our American way of life, fact is that " trade with all, quarrel with none" may be an optimistic way of maintaining an empire ( there, I said it). But that inflated sense of entitlement ain't going to feed itself, so there we are in Couscousjihad, Yemen.

Yes, yes, I know you're going to retort with something reasonable, like, " You don't have to hold the world at gunpoint to get oil blah blah blah". Whatever, Oprah. This is GTA V territory, biiiiotch.
China just seems to have a better method of getting that sweet sticky black. Us Canadians trade all over the globe, and I've never been convinced that this is made possible by the floating welfare system that is the US navy. Seems like Somalian pirates would would a past-tense thing. "Remember those Somali pirates that existed from 1993 to late 1993 when the navy obliterated them all?"


On a side-note, I was oddly proud to learn that one of the three main characters in GTA V is a violent meth-addicted Canadian.
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China way does not promise much better........

Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:
Demon of Undoing wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Demon of Undoing wrote:They don't look weak, any more than you look weak compared to pretty much anybody on either side of an NFL game. You're just a non- player.

Unless Russia invades again or F1 becomes their game again, Finns don't matter in this conversation.
Well this is just an odd way or re-stating my point, which is that nobody looks "weak" by not playing, and the 'roided-up criminals of an NFL team are a good analogy for the US military, which unfortunately finds itself in a soccer league. Its the obsession with both always being an actor and "looking strong" that has destroyed US foreign policy and credibility, with no tangible benefits to the national interest.

I agree in principle, and I'm a pretty solid isolationist in this.

However...

Playing devil's advocate here, Finland has little concern over as broad a spectrum as we do. In fact, nobody does. Leaving aside all the truthiness to the God- given greatness of our American way of life, fact is that " trade with all, quarrel with none" may be an optimistic way of maintaining an empire ( there, I said it). But that inflated sense of entitlement ain't going to feed itself, so there we are in Couscousjihad, Yemen.

Yes, yes, I know you're going to retort with something reasonable, like, " You don't have to hold the world at gunpoint to get oil blah blah blah". Whatever, Oprah. This is GTA V territory, biiiiotch.
China just seems to have a better method of getting that sweet sticky black. Us Canadians trade all over the globe, and I've never been convinced that this is made possible by the floating welfare system that is the US navy. Seems like Somalian pirates would would a past-tense thing. "Remember those Somali pirates that existed from 1993 to late 1993 when the navy obliterated them all?"


On a side-note, I was oddly proud to learn that one of the three main characters in GTA V is a violent meth-addicted Canadian.
Thank you MUCH for your post, iBS,
China just seems to have a better method of getting that sweet sticky black.
:shock: :twisted: :lol: :roll:

What Nonsense!

Have you paid any attention to the disputes China has with Vietnam and Japan over just the possibility of oil?

Or the fact that China backed the genocidal Islamic government of Sudan to get access to Sudan's oil?

Regarding the problems China has with its neighbors....

Let me & others on the forum attempt to educate you ;)

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1637

Well what a surprise!

Who could have predicted it? ;)

You've posted on that thread so you should know this already.....
Last edited by monster_gardener on Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Obama, servant of evil

Post by Mr. Perfect »

I think some of you weren't even born during the first Gulf War, while I followed it every day in real time, the US was not considered "weak" by anyone anywhere by any definition, the US really never rode much higher in my lifetime. Even bigger than the end of the SU, because the Gulf War was wrapped up in the tidy 30 minute sitcom format with the climax right at the end whereas the SU went out with a whimper over a couple of years when you look back.

The decision to leave Saddam at the time for many years after the fact was debated purely on a strategic basis, never on a strength or weakness metric. At the time the assumption was that the Iraqis would lay out a bed of roses and continue to surrender to camera crews as they marched for Bagdad.

I would say the decision to leave Saddam in power was a tremendous mistake on many levels.

You aren't analyzing the Iraq War II honestly unless you factor in the international left's decision to undermine the UN mission purely for partisan purposes. War protestors embolden the opposition.
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Re: Obama, servant of evil

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And BTW, the first sign someone is a dumb@$$ is when they say ME wars are about "getting oil".
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Re: Obama, servant of evil

Post by Demon of Undoing »

Mr. Perfect wrote:And BTW, the first sign someone is a dumb@$$ is when they say ME wars are about "getting oil".

I suppose we are there for palm fronds?
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Re: Obama, servant of evil

Post by Ibrahim »

Demon of Undoing wrote:I suppose we are there for palm fronds?
By "we" I read "Haliburton." I forget how many billions Iraqi-related contracts were worth to them, and what percentage were no-bid. Seems like some corny 2005-Michael-Moore stuff now. Old news, on to the next outrage.
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Re: Obama, servant of evil

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Demon of Undoing wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:And BTW, the first sign someone is a dumb@$$ is when they say ME wars are about "getting oil".

I suppose we are there for palm fronds?
Look up how much oil we import from Iraq as percent of total consumption and let me know your thoughts.

And whoever thinks we are there because of "Halliburton" may need to be screened for fitness to own a firearm.
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Re: Obama, servant of evil

Post by Demon of Undoing »

Mr. Perfect wrote:
Demon of Undoing wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:And BTW, the first sign someone is a dumb@$$ is when they say ME wars are about "getting oil".

I suppose we are there for palm fronds?
Look up how much oil we import from Iraq as percent of total consumption and let me know your thoughts.

And whoever thinks we are there because of "Halliburton" may need to be screened for fitness to own a firearm.

Soooo I guess in your world, none of what we do is tied to price stability on a global scale and our requirement to pay more or less what everybody in the world has to.

Your problem, P , is that you assume everybody is as stupid on the issue as you sometimes are when you have your blinders on.

Halliburton. GTFO, you aren't talking to a college freshman.
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Re: Obama, servant of evil

Post by Enki »

Demon of Undoing wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:And BTW, the first sign someone is a dumb@$$ is when they say ME wars are about "getting oil".

I suppose we are there for palm fronds?
It's not about 'getting oil' as much as it is about controlling the make-up of the path of oil traffic.

first sign someone is a dumb@$$ is when they say ME wars aren't about "getting oil".

You'd think someone in the finance industry would be well acquainted with it not mattering who owns the pipes as long as you own the spigot. ;)
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Re: Obama, servant of evil

Post by Ibrahim »

Demon of Undoing wrote:Halliburton. GTFO, you aren't talking to a college freshman.

But that's the game. The Iraq war 2.0 was hugely profitable for certain private individuals and companies, and those individuals were close friends with, and the companies counted among former board members, the highest figures in the Bush II white house. We now know that the WMD scare was total BS, and we now know what these infamous companies like Haliburton and KBR made off of government contracts in Iraq. So follow the money, cui bono and all that. The freshmen have a point in this case.
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Re: Obama, servant of evil

Post by Demon of Undoing »

Oh, I'd say that there are a number of side issues that come into play. All the way back to ( as ALI reminds us every thirty seconds) the British nightmare. But one way or the other, that's grounded in the politics of oil. If , for the Weltanschauung of a partisan Martinet, " getting oil" can't be a shorthand for a larger, extremely well known and much spoken of argument that still broadly translates into something about the region's importance for oil production, well.

I got two words. The second is, " him".
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Re: Obama, servant of evil

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Demon of Undoing wrote: Soooo I guess in your world, none of what we do is tied to price stability on a global scale and our requirement to pay more or less what everybody in the world has to.
Of course not. Gulf War 1 caused a sharp increase in oil prices. After ME meddling we are now paying record prices for oil. This is nothing to do with "getting the oil". The French were "getting the oil" from Saddam even when it was illegal IIRC. ME oil is as fungible as Canadian, Mexican, or Venezuelan oil, each nation of course we import more oil from than any ME nation.

ME meddling = price instability. The adults know this.
Your problem, P , is that you assume everybody is as stupid on the issue as you sometimes are when you have your blinders on.
Your problem is sometimes you think I'm talking to you when I'm talking to someone else. Your other problem is leftists influence your thinking even when you think they don't.
Halliburton. GTFO, you aren't talking to a college freshman.
I was talking to ibs who may very well be a college freshman.
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Re: Obama, servant of evil

Post by Mr. Perfect »

I'll post this for the freshman dumb@$$es. Look at this chart and tell me why the Iraq War, or Iran, or Syria, AFG, Pakistan, or Libya, or Yemen are about "getting the oil" when you add that US produces almost 1/2 of our own oil. Get to work college dumb@$$ freshmen.

Image
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