Socialised medicine and mass death

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Mr. Perfect
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Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Mr. Perfect »

One noose for one neck, the unavoidable outcome for single (neck) payer "health(death)care", socialized medicine whatever. Coming to your burg much faster than you think. Interestingly many millions will lay down their lives voluntarily for the glory of the state (artifical construct).

Only the rich will avoid it. Mass euthanasia, all according to plan. (Mods this is a global phenomenon, not limited to Europe or Spain).

http://www.france24.com/en/20130924-spa ... ating-cuts
Hospital budget cuts and new charges for medicine are blocking healthcare access to hundreds of thousands of people in Spain, including the seriously ill, a top health charity warned Tuesday.

Despite the government's recent claims that the economic crisis is easing, Medicos del Mundo said last year's spending cuts were hitting the most vulnerable people and raising health risks.

"The impact we have seen in the year since the reform is simply devastating," the president of the organisation, Alvaro Gonzalez, told a news conference, launching a new publicity campaign against the cuts.

Citing government figures, he said 873,000 people had had their access to Spain's free public healthcare system discontinued since September 2012 -- most of them immigrants whose entitlement lapsed because they lost their jobs.

The healthcare cuts passed in 2012 were part of urgent reforms that the government said were indispensable to save tens of billions of euros and stabilise the public finances.

Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy said in an interview published on Tuesday that Spain had emerged from recession in the current quarter with estimated economic growth of 0.1 to 0.2 percent.

"The government is insisting that the economy is recovering... but still our health system, which in past years was the envy of neighbouring countries, is suffering one cut after another," Gonzalez said.
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Demon of Undoing
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Demon of Undoing »

If anybody thought there would be no rationing they were mad. There's rationing in the free market, there's rationing in the commie systems. Nobody can have everything. Surprise, surprise. There have always been death panels. What do you think rationing is? If you ever made a decision to put fluffy down because it cost too much to fix him, you were on a death panel. Don't think it women happen because the government is involved.

The free market system works best when people have money. The socialized system works best when it has other people's money. Since the little people don't have money now, guess who gets it in the neck?
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Typhoon »

I'm sure that people could purchase all the healthcare that they required during the Great Depression.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Enki »

Demon of Undoing wrote:If anybody thought there would be no rationing they were mad. There's rationing in the free market, there's rationing in the commie systems. Nobody can have everything. Surprise, surprise. There have always been death panels. What do you think rationing is? If you ever made a decision to put fluffy down because it cost too much to fix him, you were on a death panel. Don't think it women happen because the government is involved.

The free market system works best when people have money. The socialized system works best when it has other people's money. Since the little people don't have money now, guess who gets it in the neck?
The question is which system will push more people out and restrict their access to care more? I am pretty certain that our current system with 45% uninsured people will result in more restriction of care than a public system.

And all money was other people's money before it entered your hands, and will be other people's money as soon as it leaves your hands. Calling government taxation, "other people's money.", is facile bullshit.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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Enki wrote: The question is which system will push more people out and restrict their access to care more?

Socialism.
I am pretty certain that our current system with 45% uninsured people will result in more restriction of care than a public system.
hahahahahahahahahahah look up the real number and then ask yourself why you have to rely on lying to try to make a point. "Facile bull$#!t". Obamacare is set to make a record of uninsured people.
And all money was other people's money before it entered your hands, and will be other people's money as soon as it leaves your hands. Calling government taxation, "other people's money.", is facile bullshit.
Well if you get to deal in facile horse$#!t then you should let other people too.
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Miss_Faucie_Fishtits
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Miss_Faucie_Fishtits »

They only get Meals on Wheels and watch cable television for twenty hours a day, anyway. Where's the shovel, you can use it as a dual purpose instrument.....;P........
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by noddy »

Enki wrote:
Demon of Undoing wrote:If anybody thought there would be no rationing they were mad. There's rationing in the free market, there's rationing in the commie systems. Nobody can have everything. Surprise, surprise. There have always been death panels. What do you think rationing is? If you ever made a decision to put fluffy down because it cost too much to fix him, you were on a death panel. Don't think it women happen because the government is involved.

The free market system works best when people have money. The socialized system works best when it has other people's money. Since the little people don't have money now, guess who gets it in the neck?
The question is which system will push more people out and restrict their access to care more? I am pretty certain that our current system with 45% uninsured people will result in more restriction of care than a public system.

And all money was other people's money before it entered your hands, and will be other people's money as soon as it leaves your hands. Calling government taxation, "other people's money.", is facile bullshit.
only if you dont believe in consent - all the money in my hands came from consent and i have neither the will nor ability to change that.

i also get frustrated by the fact i must have insurance and the argument is over delivery, fascism versus communism, hot choices.

what if id rather reduce stress in my world by saving money rather than spending it on compulsory payments - the cost of living and the flood of bills does more for my ill health than any other factor.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Typhoon wrote:I'm sure that people could purchase all the healthcare that they required during the Great Depression.
Did you get that Spain is going through their great depression and the government is slashing benefits? Don't worry, it will happen to you soon, you won't be left out.
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Zack Morris
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Zack Morris »

Speaking of health care, I have a fun story to share. A few months ago, I went to the doctor (a provider in my coverage network) and got some blood work done. He decided to do a full blood panel, making it sound like a preventative measure. He also had his medical assistant perform an ECG (???). The amount he billed my insurance? $5000. They decided that his methods were "not scientifically sound" (keep in mind this a provider *they* recommended), that it wasn't preventative, and that therefore I am liable for $1200 (after they adjusted the claim down to $3500 or so). Mostly for the blood panel (the ECG was negligible), which was performed at some sketchy sounding lab in Jersey. You got a problem with that? Write a letter of grievance, I was told (a free-form letter, to be sent to some corporate bureaucrat somewhere).

Interestingly, in the United States, doctors don't tell you what they're going to bill and simply have you sign a form agreeing to pay whatever costs are incurred. No signature, no medical care.

My father, now 72 and with a family history of heart disease, stopped going to the doctor a decade and a half ago. Back then, they tried to prescribe him medication for his elevated blood pressure. He wisely refused. Similarly, a dentist told him he had a gum disease more than 20 years ago and that within a few years, all his teeth would be gone. He had no gum disease and he still has all his teeth -- oh wait, he finally lost one this year, but not due to any gum disease. That same dentist tried to put braces on my *baby teeth*.

When I first got my $1200 bill, I asked around the office to see if anyone had recently dealt with similar experiences and, sure enough, they had. One coworker had a dermatologist attempt to commit insurance fraud by billing both him and his insurance. The insurance paid the claim and the doctor was expecting him to double-pay as well. It wasn't until my coworker threatened to expose the fraud that the doctor claimed it was a clerical error. This same coworker also saw a dentist when he first moved to the US who claimed to have found numerous "microcavities" (I've had numerous of these worked on). Thinking it suspicious, he decided to ignore the dentist's advice and 8 years later, he remains cavity-free. To be fair to the US medical system, he did have a knee operation that went smoothly and was covered by his insurance.

A Japanese friend of mine was born in Japan because her mother could not incur the cost of a delivery in a US hospital (this was 3 decades ago). In Japan, she told me, the mother is expected to rest in the hospital for several days. Here, you're booted out the next day, unless you can afford the outrageous daily expense of occupying a hospital bed.

God bless America.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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The natural result of Government mandated Cadillac Care. Boy are you decades behind the learning curve Zack Morris. I usually think I'm acclimating to your level of ignorance then you go and blow me away all over again. Crazy.
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Zack Morris
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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Mr. Perfect wrote:The natural result of Government mandated Cadillac Care. Boy are you decades behind the learning curve Zack Morris. I usually think I'm acclimating to your level of ignorance then you go and blow me away all over again. Crazy.
This is private insurance. Through direct relatives and friends, I can attest to scams like this going back as far as 30 years (and from what I've heard and read, much earlier). This has little to do with government mandates and everything to do with a bizarrely and inefficiently decoupled health care system (insurance and providers, with private mutual agreements between the two) that incentivizes exorbitant costs.

Doctors bill $5000 not because the procedures cost that much or because malpractice insurance is too expensive (hah!). They do it because they expect a claims adjustment process to lower the figure. Like with any hard sell, they open high. Really high. My insurance gets to claim that they saved me thousands. There is no incentive for cost control on anyone's behalf and the government money is not involved anywhere between me, my doctor, and my insurance.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Thanks for the ignorance Zack Morris, I think people need to see it once in awhile just to remember what it is like.

The reason "scams" go on is because people don't pay for insurance out of their pocket, to them it is "free" because of the tax code, and politically Insurance Commissioners are only sensitive to quality of care and not cost, and in Liberal Democrat world nothing says caring like spending. Any curtailment of cost hurts the little people and we all know we can't hurt the little people.

So yes you and ignorant people like you created this system which I have watched with my own eyes for over 2 decades, my knowledge does not depend on what people have told me or I've heard from other interns, I've been on the front lines for decades as an employer. But thanks for the history lesson and your self refuting argument. Nothing like this occurs in any market when people pay out of their own pocket, ie NO OTHER "decoupled" insurance market experiences the exorbitant cost increases seen in HC. This is a left wing government regulation problem.

BTW these "scams": are even more widespread in the Gov't Medicare program. Way to go Gov't. Way to go. Way to bankrupt a nation.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Juno »

via zerohedge: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-09-3 ... all-expend
posted at http://meps.ahrq.gov/mepsweb/data_files ... t392.shtml
STATISTICAL BRIEF #392:
The Concentration and Persistence in the Level of Health Expenditures over Time: Estimates for the U.S. Population, 2009-2010
November 2012
Steven B. Cohen, PhD
Highlights

In 2009, 1 percent of the population accounted for 21.8 percent of total health care expenditures and 20.5 percent of the population in the top 1 percent retained this ranking in 2009. The bottom half of the expenditure distribution accounted for 2.9 percent of spending in 2009; about three out of four individuals in the bottom 50 percent retained this ranking in 2010.

Those who were in the top decile of spenders in both 2009 and 2010 differed by age, race/ethnicity, sex, health status, and insurance coverage (for those under 65) from those who were in the lower half in both years.

Those in bottom half of health care spenders were more likely to report excellent health status, while those in the top decile of spenders were more likely to be in fair or poor health relative to the overall population.

While 15 percent of persons under age 65 were uninsured for all of 2010, the full year uninsured comprised 26.1 percent of those in the bottom half of spenders for both 2009 and 2010. Only 3.4 percent of those under age 65 who remained in the top decile of spenders in both years were uninsured for all of 2010.

Relative to the overall population, those who remained in the top decile of spenders were more likely to be in fair or poor health, elderly, female, non-Hispanic whites and those with public only coverage. Those who remained in the bottom half of spenders were more likely to be in excellent health, children and young adults, men, Hispanics, and the uninsured.
so 1 percent of the population accounted for (roughly) 1/5 of total health care expenditures, while half the population accounted for (roughly) 3% of total health care expenditures....

this means that if you are in the latter group, and you spend $2000 a year on your health care, er insurance and health care, there is someone in the former group for whom ... let's see...

300,000,000 people x 0.01 = 3,000,000 people using 21.8% of the total or 0.000007266666667% each.
300,000,000 people x 0.50 = 150,000,000 people using 2.9% of the total or 0.000000019333333% each...

0.000007266666667 divided by 0.000000019333333 = 375.86.

so if you spend $2000 a year, each of them spends $751,724.13

Seems reasonable, no?
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Ibrahim
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Ibrahim »

Enki wrote:
Demon of Undoing wrote:If anybody thought there would be no rationing they were mad. There's rationing in the free market, there's rationing in the commie systems. Nobody can have everything. Surprise, surprise. There have always been death panels. What do you think rationing is? If you ever made a decision to put fluffy down because it cost too much to fix him, you were on a death panel. Don't think it women happen because the government is involved.

The free market system works best when people have money. The socialized system works best when it has other people's money. Since the little people don't have money now, guess who gets it in the neck?
The question is which system will push more people out and restrict their access to care more? I am pretty certain that our current system with 45% uninsured people will result in more restriction of care than a public system.

And all money was other people's money before it entered your hands, and will be other people's money as soon as it leaves your hands. Calling government taxation, "other people's money.", is facile bullshit.

This is a debate from the 90's. Today everybody knows that single-payer systems provide better care for the majority of the population, and produce better statistical outcomes across the board. But if you are some Mr. Burns aging billionaire then yes, you are still better off in the US.

The dispute now is only about whether or not "free market" is a religious concept for you, to the point that you are willing to allow more people to die in its name. Sure, the US has the highest infant mortality rate in the developed world, but that's a small price to pay rather than let the f$%&in' gubbermint decide to give chemotherapy to poors.

"Rationing" is a red herring. Now the US rations healthcare on the basis of ability to pay instead of equally for all citizens. The evolution from "pay as you go" to "service provided to all" happened with firefighting in the late 1800's, despite the lack of a specific constitutionally mandated "right to firefighters."
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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Ibrahim wrote: This is a debate from the 90's. Today everybody knows that single-payer systems provide better care for the majority of the population, and produce better statistical outcomes across the board.
Completely false. When Canadians can't get their medical issues covered they head for foreign countries. They prefer the outcomes in other countries, often America.
But if you are some Mr. Burns aging billionaire then yes, you are still better off in the US.

The dispute now is only about whether or not "free market" is a religious concept for you, to the point that you are willing to allow more people to die in its name.
Actually socialized single payer "medicine" is proving the free market better than anything I can think of, when the state won't cover your bills people work the markets and find incredibly good deals in foreign countries. Without any central planning whatsoever.
Sure, the US has the highest infant mortality rate in the developed world, but that's a small price to pay rather than let the f$%&in' gubbermint decide to give chemotherapy to poors.
Single payer isn't remotely necessary to cover the poors. If that is what anyone is interested in. We already do that via Medicaid.
"Rationing" is a red herring. Now the US rations healthcare on the basis of ability to pay instead of equally for all citizens. The evolution from "pay as you go" to "service provided to all" happened with firefighting in the late 1800's, despite the lack of a specific constitutionally mandated "right to firefighters."
It's hilarious that a thread about rationing garners a response like this from you. Spain is slashing health coverage and your response is rationing is a red herring. Truly who can contest a genius like yours. I don't have the heartlessness to be a leftist, to pull the plug on a hospital bed and then tell them you aren't doing it. That's some dark heart.
Last edited by Mr. Perfect on Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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Zack Morris wrote:A Japanese friend of mine was born in Japan because her mother could not incur the cost of a delivery in a US hospital (this was 3 decades ago). In Japan, she told me, the mother is expected to rest in the hospital for several days. Here, you're booted out the next day, unless you can afford the outrageous daily expense of occupying a hospital bed.

God bless America.
Just so you know Zack Morris, to save yourself from future embarrassment, Japan has a debt to GDP of some 200%, and they can't blame foreign wars or tax cuts for the rich. So add it up.
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Zack Morris
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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Mr. Perfect wrote: The reason "scams" go on is because people don't pay for insurance out of their pocket, to them it is "free" because of the tax code, and politically Insurance Commissioners are only sensitive to quality of care and not cost, and in Liberal Democrat world nothing says caring like spending. Any curtailment of cost hurts the little people and we all know we can't hurt the little people.
Health care is not "free" in the US, even with full coverage through an employer. Case in point: the $1200 my insurance initially tried to stick me with after refusing to stand by the very doctor they recommended. There's a reason why so Americans fear crippling health care expenses. It's not just the uninsured who have to worry. Consumers are most definitely exposed (and sensitive to) health care costs.
So yes you and ignorant people like you created this system which I have watched with my own eyes for over 2 decades, my knowledge does not depend on what people have told me or I've heard from other interns, I've been on the front lines for decades as an employer. But thanks for the history lesson and your self refuting argument. Nothing like this occurs in any market when people pay out of their own pocket, ie NO OTHER "decoupled" insurance market experiences the exorbitant cost increases seen in HC. This is a left wing government regulation problem.
There are lots of problems with the American health insurance model and yes, many of them have been enshrined with legislation aimed at lining the pockets of insurance companies and the medical lobby's constituents. That's what half-assed regulation gets you: a patchwork of laws and loopholes insufficient to solve the problem they intended to fix but burdensome enough to stifle real competition. Nevertheless, the rest of the developed world has foregone the insurance model altogether (which isn't even appropriate for most health services).

There is plenty of evidence to demonstrate that government-regulated health care can work just fine. It just so happens that it rarely involves relying on an insurance model (Switzerland is a notable exception and, unsurprisingly, has some of the highest medical costs in the EU).

One doesn't have to look far to see similar scams, albeit on a smaller scale, perpetrated within other US insurance markets. Car insurance, for example. Mechanics routinely over-bill to profit from insurance payouts. But car repairs are typically performed outside the context of insurance and there is a natural limit to how exorbitant the fees charged by mechanics and parts suppliers can be.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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Zack Morris wrote: Health care is not "free" in the US, even with full coverage through an employer.
Derr, everyone knows that Zack Morris, hence the quote marks. Perhaps we can find a nice High School poli forum for you.

Case in point: the $1200 my insurance initially tried to stick me with after refusing to stand by the very doctor they recommended. There's a reason why so Americans fear crippling health care expenses. It's not just the uninsured who have to worry. Consumers are most definitely exposed (and sensitive to) health care costs.
Not in your case. You didn't even call your insurance company to see what was covered.
There are lots of problems with the American health insurance model and yes, many of them have been enshrined with legislation aimed at lining the pockets of insurance companies and the medical lobby's constituents. That's what half-assed regulation gets you: a patchwork of laws and loopholes insufficient to solve the problem they intended to fix but burdensome enough to stifle real competition. Nevertheless, the rest of the developed world has foregone the insurance model altogether (which isn't even appropriate for most health services).
The rest of the developed world is going bankrupt, and they can't blame military spending and tax cuts for the rich and countries are gearing up to slash medical benefits and have already done so in America and now Spain. You should think about that for a long time Zack Morris.
There is plenty of evidence to demonstrate that free market health care can work just fine.
Fixed. The evidence for this is single payer countries, when the government refuses to cover health care people take money from their own pocket and shop for incredible deals overseas. They prefer the outcomes offered by other nations over their own single payer nations nearly every time. You should think about this for a very long time.
It just so happens that it rarely involves relying on an insurance model (Switzerland is a notable exception and, unsurprisingly, has some of the highest medical costs in the EU).
Single Payer is insurance. Derr.
One doesn't have to look far to see similar scams, albeit on a smaller scale, perpetrated within other US insurance markets. Car insurance, for example. Mechanics routinely over-bill to profit from insurance payouts. But car repairs are typically performed outside the context of insurance and there is a natural limit to how exorbitant the fees charged by mechanics and parts suppliers can be.
Government spending is the king of all scamming, fraud, and abuse Zack Morris. And we take it for granted that you will know less about auto insurance and mechanics shops than every other single person here. You have nothing to offer. We all know more than you. Auto insurance utilizes claims adjusters who are often so ruthless that many shops don't do even do insurance jobs because there isn't enough money in it.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Ibrahim »

Zack Morris wrote:Health care is not "free" in the US, even with full coverage through an employer.

Indeed. Even prior to this whole Obamacare fracas the US spends more money on health care than any other nation and gets worse outcomes. And, we're told by agitated people with copies of Atlas Shrugged under their arm, every developed nation is going bankrupt so at the end of the day all the US gets for their bankruptcy that Canada or Denmark doesn't is more dead babies and a lower life expectancy. And some aircraft carriers.

And that's just on the national level, before we get to the shafting the average American gets from their insurance company, as you laid out. Worse for the country, worse for most individuals, more expensive. We've got a real winner here!
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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Everybody knows that socialized health care doesn't/can't work. Ask any Scandinavian...
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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1/2 of all US healthcare is gov't spending, Medicare. Obama says it;s going bankrupt and they cut nearly a trillion dollars. Guess what it's still going bankrupt.

The rest of US healthcare is dominated by NON PROFIT managed care since for profit companies were regulated out of most markets, so someone tell me where "capitalism" "failed", and then tell me why medical tourists choose outcomes in sometimes 3rd world countries when using their own $.

The ignorance of you people is astonishing. Leftist ignorance is always agiven but Zack Morris usually always surprises. Ibs not so much, he seems dedicated to ignorance, Zack it just sort of happens naturally.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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Endovelico wrote:Everybody knows that socialized health care doesn't/can't work. Ask any Scandinavian...
Ask the Spanish.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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Mr. Perfect wrote:1/2 of all US healthcare is gov't spending, Medicare. Obama says it;s going bankrupt and they cut nearly a trillion dollars. Guess what it's still going bankrupt.
Sure, Mr. Perfect. Whatever you say. Meanwhile, in the real world, the only thing going bankrupt are ordinary Americans -- from their medical bills.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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And Obamacare does nothing whatsoever to stop that. Zack, perhaps you should PM me your posts in advance and we can weed out the obviously stupid ones, see if there is anything left.

Zack Morris, if Medicare is not going bankrupt why did you guys cut nearly a trillion dollars from it. In your own words.

And I guess you've capitulated on all other points.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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Mr. Perfect wrote:
Case in point: the $1200 my insurance initially tried to stick me with after refusing to stand by the very doctor they recommended. There's a reason why so Americans fear crippling health care expenses. It's not just the uninsured who have to worry. Consumers are most definitely exposed (and sensitive to) health care costs.
Not in your case. You didn't even call your insurance company to see what was covered.
I guess it was my mistake to assume that reading their overview of my plan would be sufficient. Common sense dictates that one should not need to read and be forced to accept 200-page iTunes-style agreements each time they need to see a doctor.
The rest of the developed world is going bankrupt, and they can't blame military spending and tax cuts for the rich and countries are gearing up to slash medical benefits and have already done so in America and now Spain. You should think about that for a long time Zack Morris.
Most of the developed world is a long way away from bankruptcy.
Fixed. The evidence for this is single payer countries, when the government refuses to cover health care people take money from their own pocket and shop for incredible deals overseas. They prefer the outcomes offered by other nations over their own single payer nations nearly every time. You should think about this for a very long time.
It's not clear what a "free market solution" is. Virtually every market inevitably will have some degree of regulation, and this has been the case in this country since its inception. Maybe you should point to examples of countries whose health care system works better than ours?
It just so happens that it rarely involves relying on an insurance model (Switzerland is a notable exception and, unsurprisingly, has some of the highest medical costs in the EU).
Single Payer is insurance. Derr.
Switzerland doesn't have single payer. It has private insurance. They are only now studying replacing that with a single payer system. Derrrrr.
Government spending is the king of all scamming, fraud, and abuse Zack Morris. And we take it for granted that you will know less about auto insurance and mechanics shops than every other single person here. You have nothing to offer. We all know more than you. Auto insurance utilizes claims adjusters who are often so ruthless that many shops don't do even do insurance jobs because there isn't enough money in it.
Health insurers have ruthless claim adjusters, too. And they'll deny procedures directly -- so much for sensitivity to quality of care.
Similar forces are at work in the dental care industry, which is distinct from medical care. Prices are astronomical, the insurance model doesn't apply at all and yet is virtually required, and one certainly can't scapegoat Medicare anymore.
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