Socialised medicine and mass death

This too shall pass.
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Ibrahim wrote: This "hard times are coming" thing applies to every country, and in fact the US more than some. The idea that somehow denying access to available medical care today will stave off stave off some future economic catastrophe is baseless. The US was already going down the same path even before Medicare.
Medicare came into being in the 1960's. I think you just don't know enough to participate in this discussion.
Censorship isn't necessary
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Typhoon wrote: I don't recall the mods preventing you from posting on this topic.
I didn't say they did. If team singlepayer gets to make rah rah baseless assertions why can't i.
I provided an link to healthcare efficiency.
Again, that does not demonstrate how good the doctors are or measure the health of the underlying populations that a "system" has to deal with to start out. Eg, a fatter nation will be more expensive to treat and will have more disease than a slimmer nation for reasons that I think would be obvious.

I've pointed this out numerous times, your links don't even begin to address that point. The fact that we are so fat and yet still within striking distance of slimmer countries is just another testament to the greatness of American healthcare.
What is clear to everyone except dogmatic ideologues, is that the current US system is exceptionally expensive while delivering average outcomes at best.
I think you are arguing in an alternate dimension, I don't know anyone who doesn't think US hc is very expensive. It is however, not what I am talking about. What I am talking about is how good American doctors and hospitals are. They are the best in the world.

Ibs earlier blames this on Medicare and I agree with him. We need to get government out of healthcare. In medical tourism medical costs plummet dramatically, just another testament to the power of free market capitalism. Capitalism is the solution. Get government out of it.

Now CS, you wouldn't be saying that single payer rah rah is non ideological while anti single payer rah rah is not? You wouldn't be saying that would you.
"Obamacare" looks to me like a kludge designed by a committee of vested-interest lobbyist.
\
It was actually an ad hoc package thrown together when they lost votes for single player.
Single payer is not a panacea, however, it has been more cost effective while providing good healthcare in many industrialized countries.
Citation needed. Noddy has a diffferent experience, and I can post data all day long on waiting lists (denial of care). Thanks I'll pass as will over 60% of Americans.
A self-declared win in an internet forum debate is like that of the Black Knight:
It's just pointing out the obvious, I've refuted every point here (even if you agree with it or not) while nothing I've said as been refuted factually, not even rhetorically.
Last edited by Mr. Perfect on Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Censorship isn't necessary
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Ibrahim wrote:
Hoosiernorm wrote:If I am not generating a profit for a system then I am not valuable?
This is the central philosophical question of late-stage capitalist society, and the common answer seems to be "no." Even most lefties only believe in supplying thing like medical care and education so that people can pay back the state later on by being productive worker bees. We've also had a million conversations across the various forums about the inferiority of one nation to another based on their economic output or ability to invent to new consumer goods.

WWJD? Who cares what he says, he didn't invent products I want to buy. Suspicious disinterest in material possessions on the past of all major religious figures, really.
Profits are an economic signal for resource allocation. When you remove profits from the equation then you lose the ability to find out what a population wants to do with the resources available to them, and you end up with wasteful surpluses or deprivating shortages. I'm not sure Jesus wants deprivating shortages or wasteful surpluses.

Hate to go all educated on you, hopefully this helps.
Censorship isn't necessary
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Ibrahim wrote: The idea that somehow denying access to available medical care today will stave off stave off some future economic catastrophe is baseless. .
Why did obama cut Medicare then by nearly a trillion dollars.
Censorship isn't necessary
User avatar
monster_gardener
Posts: 5334
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:36 am
Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........

Dark & Stormy Knights Need Medical Savings Accounts......

Post by monster_gardener »

I had intended to comment on Typhoon's mention of medical savings accounts.*

* Have had one.

Liked it.

Did have to spend it all within the year or lose it :|

One time I bought extra band-aids & a fancy thermometer with what was left over :)

Think that maybe combining it with a catastrophic medical insurance program might be a good option for a lot of people.......

Especially if you could roll it over from year to year......... :)

Or use it for veterinary care..... :D

Or donate it....

For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
User avatar
Typhoon
Posts: 27267
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:42 pm
Location: 関西

Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Typhoon »

Tontines played a major role in the development in the early development of the insurance industry in the USA [and also the UK, if memory serves]

Cato Inst | Tontines for the Young Invincibles
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Mr. Perfect »

There are dozens and dozens of free market solutions available to solve US hc problems, they are disallowed by US Insurance Commissioners.
Censorship isn't necessary
User avatar
Typhoon
Posts: 27267
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:42 pm
Location: 関西

Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Typhoon »

Mr. Perfect wrote:There are dozens and dozens of free market solutions available to solve US hc problems, they are disallowed by US Insurance Commissioners.
I don't know how many potential "free market solutions" there may be nor it is a given a priori that they would work.

I thought member might find the concept and history of tontines interesting. They and variations on are of interest to me.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Typhoon wrote: I don't know how many potential "free market solutions" there may be

I do
nor it is a given a priori that they would work.
They're already working. Medical tourism drives down costs dramatically.
Censorship isn't necessary
noddy
Posts: 11326
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:09 pm

Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by noddy »

Typhoon wrote:Tontines played a major role in the development in the early development of the insurance industry in the USA [and also the UK, if memory serves]

Cato Inst | Tontines for the Young Invincibles
this is the standard way in all of the west - make insurance compulsory so the young and other people that dont want it still pay for it.

if life is a statistic then this garuntees maximum money for the system however if life is a complex blend of lots of aspects then this may also be misallocating resources from all sorts of areas into death avoidance schemes, which is the thought process of the old and declining, not the young and vigorous.
ultracrepidarian
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Mr. Perfect »

There is a lot of information deficit in these discussions, for generations the left blamed expensive hc on US uninsured, now that they ended up with compulsion the uninsured are lazy free riders. As we see now, none of these people are buying even under penalty, and they never will. obamacare hinges on the mandate and the mandate is already falling. The only question is how many people will get killed before it goes over.

obama described the mandate quite nicely at one time.

EoSnqofelsQ
Censorship isn't necessary
Ibrahim
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:06 am

Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Ibrahim »

noddy wrote:
Typhoon wrote:Tontines played a major role in the development in the early development of the insurance industry in the USA [and also the UK, if memory serves]

Cato Inst | Tontines for the Young Invincibles
this is the standard way in all of the west - make insurance compulsory so the young and other people that dont want it still pay for it.

if life is a statistic then this garuntees maximum money for the system however if life is a complex blend of lots of aspects then this may also be misallocating resources from all sorts of areas into death avoidance schemes, which is the thought process of the old and declining, not the young and vigorous.
This brings us back to Hoosier's point I highlighted earlier: do the unprofitable have value? Its disproportionately the old who are chronically ill, but not exclusively. In general we're talking about the healthy paying for the sick, but in even simpler terms were talking about those who can't provide for themselves taking from those who can. The only question is whether or not this is desirable, and the rest is simply which reallocation scheme you think is more efficient. Except that the statistics tell us its single-payer so there's no debate there.
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Medicare is single payer. obama cut it by nearly a trillion dollars and said it was going bankrupt. How does that support your efficiency claims.

So far you haven't contributed any statistics at all.
Censorship isn't necessary
noddy
Posts: 11326
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:09 pm

Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by noddy »

Ibrahim wrote:
noddy wrote:
Typhoon wrote:Tontines played a major role in the development in the early development of the insurance industry in the USA [and also the UK, if memory serves]

Cato Inst | Tontines for the Young Invincibles
this is the standard way in all of the west - make insurance compulsory so the young and other people that dont want it still pay for it.

if life is a statistic then this garuntees maximum money for the system however if life is a complex blend of lots of aspects then this may also be misallocating resources from all sorts of areas into death avoidance schemes, which is the thought process of the old and declining, not the young and vigorous.
This brings us back to Hoosier's point I highlighted earlier: do the unprofitable have value? Its disproportionately the old who are chronically ill, but not exclusively. In general we're talking about the healthy paying for the sick, but in even simpler terms were talking about those who can't provide for themselves taking from those who can. The only question is whether or not this is desirable, and the rest is simply which reallocation scheme you think is more efficient. Except that the statistics tell us its single-payer so there's no debate there.
kinda, except for the forced binary of do the unprofitable have value? and in even simpler terms were talking about those who can't provide for themselves taking from those who can which smells like a simplistic binary abrahimic religion trick ;-)

part of the argument is caring for the poor but the biggest part of the argument which the above trick avoids is the levels of support the system should provide to anyone, poor or not, old or not and how should society balance the money spent on the sick poor versus the healthy poor ?

these cutoffs are extremely important, they are the heart of the matter in terms of what you can actually expect from the system.

this isnt just about single payer healthcare or government healthcare, its about the entire premise of insurance which is that most people wont use it and thusly its a viable industry.

healthcare is problematic because everyone will eventually use it - im as suspicious of the private healthcare industry dealing with the baby boomers as i am the government one so in my country all i can see is the government washing its hands of the problem and not wanting to take responsiblity for the fact it overpromised and these people are going to die of "treatable" conditions.
ultracrepidarian
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Mr. Perfect »

There is no need whatsoever for single payer if you want to provide subsidy to the poor. Just provide the subsidy. No need for single payer.
Censorship isn't necessary
Ibrahim
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:06 am

Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Ibrahim »

noddy wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
noddy wrote:
Typhoon wrote:Tontines played a major role in the development in the early development of the insurance industry in the USA [and also the UK, if memory serves]

Cato Inst | Tontines for the Young Invincibles
this is the standard way in all of the west - make insurance compulsory so the young and other people that dont want it still pay for it.

if life is a statistic then this garuntees maximum money for the system however if life is a complex blend of lots of aspects then this may also be misallocating resources from all sorts of areas into death avoidance schemes, which is the thought process of the old and declining, not the young and vigorous.
This brings us back to Hoosier's point I highlighted earlier: do the unprofitable have value? Its disproportionately the old who are chronically ill, but not exclusively. In general we're talking about the healthy paying for the sick, but in even simpler terms were talking about those who can't provide for themselves taking from those who can. The only question is whether or not this is desirable, and the rest is simply which reallocation scheme you think is more efficient. Except that the statistics tell us its single-payer so there's no debate there.
kinda, except for the forced binary of do the unprofitable have value? and in even simpler terms were talking about those who can't provide for themselves taking from those who can which smells like a simplistic binary abrahimic religion trick ;-)

part of the argument is caring for the poor but the biggest part of the argument which the above trick avoids is the levels of support the system should provide to anyone, poor or not, old or not and how should society balance the money spent on the sick poor versus the healthy poor ?

these cutoffs are extremely important, they are the heart of the matter in terms of what you can actually expect from the system.

this isnt just about single payer healthcare or government healthcare, its about the entire premise of insurance which is that most people wont use it and thusly its a viable industry.

healthcare is problematic because everyone will eventually use it - im as suspicious of the private healthcare industry dealing with the baby boomers as i am the government one so in my country all i can see is the government washing its hands of the problem and not wanting to take responsiblity for the fact it overpromised and these people are going to die of "treatable" conditions.
I think that governments should fulfill their commitments in all cases, but especially to those in need or otherwise vulnerable, so reneging on promised standards of care one they are set is clearly wrong. It starts to bump into "Second Bill of Rights" and Liberation Theology territory. Sure, there are people too sick to work, but then there are people who are able and willing to work who can't find work, and is one really different than the other? If you're obligated to find healthcare for all then why not work for all and where does it stop, etc. But most of the developed world has agreed that it stops after healthcare, and only the US lags behind with its ruinously expensive failed hybrid system.

You raise a good point in the premise of insurance itself. The provision of health care shouldn't really be on an insurance model. The provision of firefighting and policing services aren't viewed under the insurance model. It probably isn't the right way to look at healthcare either.
noddy
Posts: 11326
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:09 pm

Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by noddy »

Ibrahim wrote: You raise a good point in the premise of insurance itself. The provision of health care shouldn't really be on an insurance model. The provision of firefighting and policing services aren't viewed under the insurance model. It probably isn't the right way to look at healthcare either.
if they had of promised x percent of the budget to be rationed to the first lucky souls in line and not called it universal healthcare and raised expectations about the levels of treatment to everyone then this would be a radically different argument on all sides.
ultracrepidarian
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Ibrahim wrote: I think that governments should fulfill their commitments in all cases, but especially to those in need or otherwise vulnerable, so reneging on promised standards of care one they are set is clearly wrong.
One wonders after so many decades of leftism they've never gotten around to doing it. One wonders.
It starts to bump into "Second Bill of Rights" and Liberation Theology territory. Sure, there are people too sick to work, but then there are people who are able and willing to work who can't find work, and is one really different than the other? If you're obligated to find healthcare for all then why not work for all and where does it stop, etc. But most of the developed world has agreed that it stops after healthcare,
Who cares.
and only the US lags behind with its ruinously expensive failed hybrid system.
Well, Democrats, not sure what you do about them.
You raise a good point in the premise of insurance itself. The provision of health care shouldn't really be on an insurance model. The provision of firefighting and policing services aren't viewed under the insurance model. It probably isn't the right way to look at healthcare either.
Single Payer is an insurance model. Back to the drawing board yet again.
Censorship isn't necessary
noddy
Posts: 11326
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:09 pm

Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by noddy »

is probably unfair to call this thread socialised medicine and mass death - perhaps "declining demographics and economic prospects in a debt addled country and mass death"
ultracrepidarian
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Actually that is the fundamental problem with socialized medicine, the nail has finally been hit on it's head.

When you make everyone dependent on one entity then entity failure is not survivable. Single payer nations will not survive.

Populations not as dependent on gov't can survive the conditions you mention much better.
Censorship isn't necessary
User avatar
Endovelico
Posts: 3038
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Endovelico »

Mr. Perfect wrote:Actually that is the fundamental problem with socialized medicine, the nail has finally been hit on it's head.

When you make everyone dependent on one entity then entity failure is not survivable. Single payer nations will not survive.

Populations not as dependent on gov't can survive the conditions you mention much better.
At heart Mr.P you are a true social darwinist. Survival of the fittest at all levels. Only those strong enough, smart enough to survive in the jungle deserve to survive. You can't produce enough to eat, you die. You can't pay your way through school, you die. You can't afford to pay the doctor, you die. You can't defend yourself and your family from predators, you die. I don't say it can't work, but I thought we had been trying to escape that fate for the last few thousand years...Or do we need it just to bring the human population down to manageable size? And what may that be? Three billion people? One billion?...
User avatar
YMix
Posts: 4631
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:53 am
Location: Department of Congruity - Report any outliers here

Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by YMix »

Endovelico wrote:At heart Mr.P you are a true social darwinist. Survival of the fittest at all levels. Only those strong enough, smart enough to survive in the jungle deserve to survive. You can't produce enough to eat, you die. You can't pay your way through school, you die. You can't afford to pay the doctor, you die. You can't defend yourself and your family from predators, you die.
And also a Christian. Social Darwinism and Christianity go well together.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
User avatar
Endovelico
Posts: 3038
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Endovelico »

YMix wrote:
Endovelico wrote:At heart Mr.P you are a true social darwinist. Survival of the fittest at all levels. Only those strong enough, smart enough to survive in the jungle deserve to survive. You can't produce enough to eat, you die. You can't pay your way through school, you die. You can't afford to pay the doctor, you die. You can't defend yourself and your family from predators, you die.
And also a Christian. Social Darwinism and Christianity go well together.
You have me puzzled there... Would you care to elaborate?...
User avatar
YMix
Posts: 4631
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:53 am
Location: Department of Congruity - Report any outliers here

Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by YMix »

Ummm... Mr. Perfect is a Christian. Isn't that common knowledge?
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
User avatar
Endovelico
Posts: 3038
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Endovelico »

YMix wrote:Ummm... Mr. Perfect is a Christian. Isn't that common knowledge?
Sorry! I missed the tongue-in-cheek part... I must be getting old... :oops:
Post Reply