Socialised medicine and mass death

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Zack Morris
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Zack Morris »

Mr. Perfect wrote:And Obamacare does nothing whatsoever to stop that. Zack, perhaps you should PM me your posts in advance and we can weed out the obviously stupid ones, see if there is anything left.

Zack Morris, if Medicare is not going bankrupt why did you guys cut nearly a trillion dollars from it. In your own words.

And I guess you've capitulated on all other points.
Whether a particular US government program is sustainable or not is not the issue here. The nation isn't going bankrupt. Everyone knew Medicare was unsustainable without significant changes to the health care system.

But it's false for you to say that Americans don't bear the cost of health care, that it's "free" because it's provided by bare-bones, shitty employer plans, or that non-profits somehow cover the rest. Two million Americans per year are bankrupted by their medical costs. To say nothing of the order-of-magnitude larger number of people who are burdened by costs but not yet outright bankrupted by them. Apart from government spending, these so called "Cadillac plans" and magical "non-profits" don't seem to be providing all that coverage.

No wonder Americans are increasingly leaving the country to Asia and Latin America to get treated. That's the real medical tourism industry.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Zack Morris wrote: Whether a particular US government program is sustainable or not is not the issue here.
It sure is. But I know why you don't want it to be, it makes you look absolutely horrible.
The nation isn't going bankrupt. Everyone knew Medicare was unsustainable without significant changes to the health care system.
There are a lot of other things everyone knows Zack. Almost everyone. Some people only learn the hard way Zack Morris (read on).
But it's false for you to say that Americans don't bear the cost of health care, that it's "free" because it's provided by bare-bones, shitty employer plans, or that non-profits somehow cover the rest. Two million Americans per year are bankrupted by their medical costs.
Sorry Zack, this went way, way over your head, being brand new to the work force or whatever you situation. I can never tell if you are in high school, interning, who knows. Ill try in honesty to speak to your level.

When I employ someone and buy insurance for them, as far as the incentives they live with the health care is "free", ie when they go to the doctor other than a co-pay or something whether the bill is $500 or $50,000 it really doesn't matter. Now Zack Morris maybe we'll go more complex here, maybe we won't, but I'm trying to use very simple examples in the hope that we can help your mind grasp the most basic concept of what's going on here.

You experienced this firsthand. Childishly you walked into a Doctors office and then walked out with a big bill you didn't know about, because you "thought" the health care was "free" (my definition here being "someone else pays"). Your brain was not working particularly well that day or maybe about average, and even now instead of recognizing how dumb you were you went and blabbed about it on an internet forum, making a spectacle of your stupidity.

Now as you have learned the hard way, the sign of an inferior intellect, next time you will call around and make sure what's covered and whats not and hopefully for your sake you won't be so stupid about it, perhaps though this is just you being a good Keynesian and stimulating someone else's economy. Maybe you want the Doctor to be rich, who knows coming from you. But it won't change the fact that whatever you end up paying for you'll be indifferent to that cost. Whether he charges you $100 or $150,000 you don't really care.

This is completely unique to US healthcare, and it's because of the tax law, where you don't pay for your insurance out of your own pocket. You are indifferent to that actual cost of care. As a result a doctor can charge you whatever he wants and you'll never care. You would never buy a hot tub, or have a pool installed, you know "put in whatever you want, I don't care what it costs" for obvious reasons, and despite your little hissy fit of ignorance earlier, auto insurance utilizes claims adjusters who ruthlessly drive down costs for repairs. This feature is not allowed by any insurance commissioner in the country.

On the brightside, you never had a chance on this issue with me not only because of my experience, unbelievable knowledge and intelligence but also my best golf buddy is a healthcare actuary. So sorry, you were dead in the water before you even cast off.

So bottom line is the problem with American HC is a government system wherein the consumer is shielded from the real cost of care due to it being a "benefit" because of the tax code.
To say nothing of the order-of-magnitude larger number of people who are burdened by costs but not yet outright bankrupted by them. Apart from government spending, these so called "Cadillac plans" and magical "non-profits" don't seem to be providing all that coverage.
Like I said, this is a state controlled enterprise. Don't be surprised with the results. It's monster of your making. Or at least older versions of you.
No wonder Americans are increasingly leaving the country to Asia and Latin America to get treated. That's the real medical tourism industry.
They have good company in single payer nations all over the world. It's the free market. It's a beautiful thing. We don't here, but the blessing of it are abundant for those that tap into it.
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Zack Morris
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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Mr. Perfect wrote: Childishly you walked into a Doctors office and then walked out with a big bill you didn't know about, because you "thought" the health care was "free" (my definition here being "someone else pays"). Your brain was not working particularly well that day or maybe about average, and even now instead of recognizing how dumb you were you went and blabbed about it on an internet forum, making a spectacle of your stupidity.

Now as you have learned the hard way, the sign of an inferior intellect, next time you will call around and make sure what's covered and whats not and hopefully for your sake you won't be so stupid about it, perhaps though this is just you being a good Keynesian and stimulating someone else's economy. Maybe you want the Doctor to be rich, who knows coming from you. But it won't change the fact that whatever you end up paying for you'll be indifferent to that cost. Whether he charges you $100 or $150,000 you don't really care.
In other words, your argument is this: if it's not covered by your insurance, you can't call it health care, therefore any additional costs you incur are "dumb choices".

Let's all ponder the monumental stupidity of your statements.

Looks like you've unwittingly discovered that health care insurance in the United States does not cover everything and exposes consumers to substantial costs.
So bottom line is the problem with American HC is a government system wherein the consumer is shielded from the real cost of care due to it being a "benefit" because of the tax code.
Two million Americans per year driven to bankruptcy would disagree that they've been sheltered from the costs, as would millions more who weren't quite bankrupted.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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Zack Morris wrote: In other words, your argument is this: if it's not covered by your insurance, you can't call it health care, therefore any additional costs you incur are "dumb choices".
No Zack Morris. I will dumb this down for you even further. I'm admittedly not good at being this dumb but I will try.
Let's all ponder the monumental stupidity of your statements.

Looks like you've unwittingly discovered that health care insurance in the United States does not cover everything and exposes consumers to substantial costs.
No Zack Morris, I discovered this DECADES AGO while you discovered it last week. NO INSURANCE ANYWHERE IN ANY COUNTRY COVERS "EVERYTHING" . THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS UNIVERSAL COVERAGE. Single payer nations refuse coverage on a wide range of treatments and procedures, including US medicare/VA.
Two million Americans per year driven to bankruptcy would disagree that they've been sheltered from the costs, as would millions more who weren't quite bankrupted.
Again Zack Morris you are confusing different points of discussion here:

1) IF YOU HAVE INSURANCE you are immune to the cost of any covered care (it goes without saying among adults that you have to find out in advance what is covered and what is not, I understand you are undergoing a rather painful process of trying to achieve adulthood).

Why this is relevant is because if you have covered treatment you have no interest whatever in whether your doctor is over or under charging the market. if you need a butt camera insert and one guy charges $3,000 while another guy charges $5,000 you have no interest in the cost IF IT IS COVERED (usually you don't have to say this).

Contrast with hot tub, wherein one guys is charging $3,000 and another $5,000, the price will factor into your decision and it doesn't when you have COVERED HEALTHCARE.

2) I agree that bankruptcy from medical bills is a tragedy, but I support free market health care and not the state system your elders built. I agree that we should get government out of healthcare so that fewer people go bankrupt. And of course Obamacare does nothing whatsoever to address this.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

Post by noddy »

in australia single payer covers 100% of the cheap little things and 50% of some of the expensive surgeries.

one of the nuances with the most sting in it for the average aussie is if the operation is declared cosmetic or life threatining because only the latter gets the 50% help.

serious back injuries that leave you crippled in pain and require surgery are considered cosmetic but they will help you with the ongoing physio and painkillers you need to "manage" it.
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Mr. Perfect
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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But at least they care about you more. Caring is important. Liberals love a good hug.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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the main reason we dont have people with crippling bills is the doctors check your insurance and tell you to sod off if its not covered :)
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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noddy wrote:in australia single payer covers 100% of the cheap little things and 50% of some of the expensive surgeries.

one of the nuances with the most sting in it for the average aussie is if the operation is declared cosmetic or life threatining because only the latter gets the 50% help.

serious back injuries that leave you crippled in pain and require surgery are considered cosmetic but they will help you with the ongoing physio and painkillers you need to "manage" it.

Sounds like a bad system. I mean still better than, and producing better outcomes than, and cheaper than, the American system. But bad.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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America achieves the best medical outcomes in the world. We have the best Doctors in the world, best Hospitals, best medical schools. Despite Medicare and heavily regulated insurances. When you want the best care you come to America, 9 times out of 10.

As we've discussed, the government problems have drive the costs way, way up, but Democrats what do you do.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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protesting that nurses need more wages, next minute protesting about rising health care costs.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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Obamacare: Increased coverage, lower costs. And a unicorn if you have a daughter.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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noddy wrote:protesting that nurses need more wages, next minute protesting about rising health care costs.
Yeah, its probably nurse's salaries driving that up. In any situation blame labor. Especially nurses, an infamously lazy and superfluous caste.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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Ibrahim wrote:
noddy wrote:protesting that nurses need more wages, next minute protesting about rising health care costs.
Yeah, its probably nurse's salaries driving that up. In any situation blame labor. Especially nurses, an infamously lazy and superfluous caste.
:) it was a throwaway comment and most certainly wasnt directed at labour or nurses per se.

its a long worn out argument the spiralling effect of chasing things upwards against the cost of living but alas involves almost religious differences in worldview about how capitalism and value actually work.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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noddy wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
noddy wrote:protesting that nurses need more wages, next minute protesting about rising health care costs.
Yeah, its probably nurse's salaries driving that up. In any situation blame labor. Especially nurses, an infamously lazy and superfluous caste.
:) it was a throwaway comment and most certainly wasnt directed at labour or nurses per se.

its a long worn out argument the spiralling effect of chasing things upwards against the cost of living but alas involves almost religious differences in worldview about how capitalism and value actually work.
I use the sports fan analogy all the time, but religion is becoming a more and more attractive way to look at it.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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in australia sport and religion have long been considered synonyms.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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Ibrahim wrote: Yeah, its probably nurse's salaries driving that up.
you think rising nurses salaries wouldn't drive up health care costs? How is that possible, in your mind.
In any situation blame labor. Especially nurses, an infamously lazy and superfluous caste.
There are more of them than doctors, lazy or not. But doctors make way too much too.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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noddy wrote:in australia sport and religion have long been considered synonyms.
In Canada both are considered hockey.
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Zack Morris
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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Mr. Perfect wrote: 1) IF YOU HAVE INSURANCE
Which a huge amount of the country doesn't, and not because they don't need it.
you are immune to the cost of any covered care (it goes without saying among adults that you have to find out in advance what is covered and what is not, I understand you are undergoing a rather painful process of trying to achieve adulthood).
The operating words being "covered care".
Why this is relevant is because if you have covered treatment you have no interest whatever in whether your doctor is over or under charging the market. if you need a butt camera insert and one guy charges $3,000 while another guy charges $5,000 you have no interest in the cost IF IT IS COVERED (usually you don't have to say this).
Nobody cares about "covered care". They care about "care".
Contrast with hot tub, wherein one guys is charging $3,000 and another $5,000, the price will factor into your decision and it doesn't when you have COVERED HEALTHCARE.
Nobody cares about "covered care". They care about "care".
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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Zack Morris wrote: Which a huge amount of the country doesn't, and not because they don't need it.
Well if 10% is huge then I suppose we would see people flocking to obamacare enrollment... right now it looks like less than 1% of the uninsured (not the population at large) is signing up, so the definition of need may vary.

As a young man I was uninsured for a bit and didn't feel any need to be honest with you.
The operating words being "covered care".

Nobody cares about "covered care". They care about "care".

Nobody cares about "covered care". They care about "care".
People that think and analyze problems make these distinctions, yes, in order to understand economic forces that bear on the issue. Liberals, of course, do not have any of these concerns and the result is the situation today, where people "care" and have created medical services that are difficult to afford and as you've pointed out you've made it nearly impossible for about 10% of the population. I just don't have the cruelty to be a leftist.

So as your heart bleeds and you keep cranking up costs thinking people will continue to look for a straitjacket and ball gag for you and an appropriate padded room.

Obamacare is at nearly 60% disapproval as is any plan that causes people to lose their private insurance. So good luck with that.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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Mr. Perfect wrote:
Zack Morris wrote:A Japanese friend of mine was born in Japan because her mother could not incur the cost of a delivery in a US hospital (this was 3 decades ago). In Japan, she told me, the mother is expected to rest in the hospital for several days. Here, you're booted out the next day, unless you can afford the outrageous daily expense of occupying a hospital bed.

God bless America.
Just so you know Zack Morris, to save yourself from future embarrassment, Japan has a debt to GDP of some 200%, and they can't blame foreign wars or tax cuts for the rich. So add it up.
Japan does have an enormous debt to GDP ratio of ~ 200%

This is not due to health care costs. [A out-of-pocket CT scan in Japan costs ~ $200. In the US, the same scan can cost ~ $4,000 plus.]

Rather, in Japan, it is mostly due to numerous misguided attempts to mitigate the effects of the popping of the Bubble Economy.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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noddy wrote:in australia single payer covers 100% of the cheap little things and 50% of some of the expensive surgeries.

one of the nuances with the most sting in it for the average aussie is if the operation is declared cosmetic or life threatining because only the latter gets the 50% help.

serious back injuries that leave you crippled in pain and require surgery are considered cosmetic but they will help you with the ongoing physio and painkillers you need to "manage" it.
This strikes me as backwards.

Should not single payer not, or only partially, cover the common "cheap little things" and completely cover the less common expensive treatments that have the potential for personal bankruptcy?
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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Mr. Perfect wrote:America achieves the best medical outcomes in the world. We have the best Doctors in the world, best Hospitals, best medical schools. Despite Medicare and heavily regulated insurances. When you want the best care you come to America, 9 times out of 10.
The situation is similar to that of education. For every Princeton there are a lot of diploma mills: second-rate, third-rate, and no-rate schools.

For every Johns Hopkins there are a lot of second rate, etc., hospitals.

In other words, the best is not representative.

So oil sheiks, Russian and Chinese oligarchs, and the top level Yakuza come to the US to be treated at leading medical centres.
Along with the local wealthy and others with high-end health insurance.

On the other hand, average Americans are opting for medical tourism to avoid personal bankruptcy due to the costs of medical treatment.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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Typhoon wrote:So oil sheiks, Russian and Chinese oligarchs, and the top level Yakuza come to the US to be treated at leading centres.

On the other hand, average Americans are opting for medical tourism to avoid personal bankruptcy due to the costs of medical treatment.
I mentioned this in one of my first posts. There is something about the American conservative mentality that causes them to identify with the super wealthy instead of their social and economic peers. Points for optimism I guess.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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Typhoon wrote:
The situation is similar to that of education. For every Princeton there are a lot of diploma mills: second-rate, third-rate, and no-rate schools.

For every Johns Hopkins there are a lot of second rate, etc., hospitals.

In other words, the best is not representative.
America achieves the best medical outcomes in the world. We have the best Doctors in the world, best Hospitals, best medical schools. Despite Medicare and heavily regulated insurances.

Our average doctors are the best in the world.
So oil sheiks, Russian and Chinese oligarchs, and the top level Yakuza come to the US to be treated at leading medical centres.
Along with the local wealthy and others with high-end health insurance.

On the other hand, average Americans are opting for medical tourism to avoid personal bankruptcy due to the costs of medical treatment.
Average everyone opts for medical tourism including single payer nations. So much for Universal Coverage.
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Re: Socialised medicine and mass death

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Ibrahim wrote:
Typhoon wrote:So oil sheiks, Russian and Chinese oligarchs, and the top level Yakuza come to the US to be treated at leading centres.

On the other hand, average Americans are opting for medical tourism to avoid personal bankruptcy due to the costs of medical treatment.
I mentioned this in one of my first posts. There is something about the American conservative mentality that causes them to identify with the super wealthy instead of their social and economic peers. Points for optimism I guess.
Points for facts. American doctors are the best in the world.

Now we do have Medicare and onerous government regulation that really weigh us down, but Democrats....
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