Pope Francis and the Countercuria

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Pope Francis and the Countercuria

Postby YMix » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:02 pm

Millions of Catholics have been waiting for a pope who talks like Francis
As he gathers together cardinals who are hostile to the Vatican, an interview suggests this pope's a bit different to the last


This is going to be an interesting week for Pope Francis. His "countercuria" – a group of eight cardinals from around the world, selected partly for their known hostility to the way the Vatican has been run – is meeting for the first time. Already he has announced that they will form a permanent council. Although that arrangement may not survive him, the intention to remove the church's strategic planning from the curia – the permanent "civil service" in the Vatican – is clear.

Before that committee reports, there is his remarkable interview with the editor of La Republicca, a cradle Catholic turned atheist, which the paper splashed on this morning. This continues on the lines of his earlier interview with a fellow Jesuit, but is even more outspoken:

"The curia as a whole is … what in an army is called the quartermaster's office, it manages the services that serve the Holy See. But it has one defect: it is Vatican-centric. It sees and looks after the interests of the Vatican, which are still, for the most part, temporal interests. This Vatican-centric view neglects the world around us. I do not share this view and I'll do everything I can to change it."

Later, in an extraordinary phrase, he says:

"Heads of the church have often been narcissists, flattered and thrilled by their courtiers. The court is the leprosy of the papacy."

There are times when it is almost impossible to believe this is a pope speaking:

"Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and improve our knowledge of the world around us … The world is crisscrossed by roads that come closer together and move apart, but the important thing is that they lead towards the good."

Even more astonishing:

"Everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must choose to follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them. That would be enough to make the world a better place."

It really is difficult to imagine anything more opposed to the spirit of fortress Catholicism, and the doctrines that "error has no rights" and "there is no salvation outside the church".

One of the strangest things about this interview is that it comes from a man who has pressed ahead with the canonisation ofJohn Paul II, whose policy and vision of the papacy he seems more and more directly to reject.

He defends the liberation theologians, whom John Paul II persecuted and in some cases excommunicated:

"[Marxism] certainly gave a political aspect to their theology, but many of them were believers and with a high concept of humanity."

He also speaks with affection of a communist teacher he had – again something unthinkable for the Polish pope who shaped the church he has inherited.

None of this makes him a liberal exactly. The saint he says he feels closest to is Augustine (also, of course, Luther's guiding light), who worked out the doctrine of original sin. In fact I can't help feeling that if Luther had continued as an Augustinian friar, and – who knows – become pope himself, he would have sounded quite a lot like Francis, except for his antisemitism, which Francis explicitly repudiates.

But he certainly offers no comfort to the neoliberals, either. "I think so-called unrestrained liberalism only makes the strong stronger and the weak weaker and excludes the most excluded. We need great freedom, no discrimination, no demagoguery and a lot of love. We need rules of conduct and also, if necessary, direct intervention from the state to correct the more intolerable inequalities."

Whatever else happens, this papacy is going to be astounding fun to watch, not least because – although we talk of the pope leading his church – he knows very well that there are a great many Catholics, not all of them in the priesthood, who are determined not to follow in the direction he is pointing them. On the other hand there are millions throughout the world who have been waiting decades for a pope who talks like this.


A really interesting week. I'm really curious what will come out of this.
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Re: Pope Francis and the Countercuria

Postby Alexis » Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:36 pm

YMix wrote:There are times when it is almost impossible to believe this is a pope speaking:

"Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and improve our knowledge of the world around us … The world is crisscrossed by roads that come closer together and move apart, but the important thing is that they lead towards the good."


Careful about the meaning of proselytism, as opposed to evangelization. :-)
Pope Francis calls to and promotes evangelization.

About the contemporary meaning of the word "proselytism":
6) Isn’t proselytization the same thing as evangelization?
Although the word has historically been used this way, in recent decades a new, technical meaning for “proselytization” has emerged in ecclesiastical circles.
It is not the same thing as evangelization, and Pope Francis was not dissing evangelization in his remarks.

7) So what is “proselytization” in this new sense?
Basically, it’s trying to strong-arm people into the faith, putting undue pressure on them rather than allowing them to make a free choice for Christ.
An explanation of this usage is found in the 2007 document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith titled Instruction on Some Aspects of Evangelization.
According to that document:
In this connection, it needs also to be recalled that if a non-Catholic Christian, for reasons of conscience and having been convinced of Catholic truth, asks to enter into the full communion of the Catholic Church, this is to be respected as the work of the Holy Spirit and as an expression of freedom of conscience and of religion. In such a case, it would not be a question of proselytism in the negative sense that has been attributed to this term.
A footnote then explains:
The term proselytism originated in the context of Judaism, in which the term proselyte referred to someone who, coming from the gentiles, had passed into the Chosen People.
So too, in the Christian context, the term proselytism was often used as a synonym for missionary activity.
More recently, however, the term has taken on a negative connotation, to mean the promotion of a religion by using means, and for motives, contrary to the spirit of the Gospel; that is, which do not safeguard the freedom and dignity of the human person.
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Re: Pope Francis and the Countercuria

Postby Enki » Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:46 pm

This makes me hopeful.

Especially in light of the fact that just about every unskilled job is going to be erased over the next two decades.
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Harder to Erase 'Skilled' or 'Unskilled' Dirty Jobs?....

Postby monster_gardener » Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:03 pm

Enki wrote:This makes me hopeful.

Especially in light of the fact that just about every unskilled job is going to be erased over the next two decades.


Thank You Very Much for your post, Tinker Enki.

Especially in light of the fact that just about every unskilled job is going to be erased over the next two decades.


Hmmmnnnnn...........

You may be correct.......

But I might be even more concerned about what happens to some/many allegedly "skilled" jobs as automation increases and English or what language is needed fluency improves in low wage lands.......

Would be a bitch to have paid for expensive education/training to get a skilled job only to have automation/technology make it obsolete and be saddled with debt for the now near useless training...

IMO some low prestige "Dirty Jobs" often not seen as 'skilled' are going to be harder to eliminate than higher prestige allegedly 'skilled jobs'......

Not necessarily impossible.... Even a job doing "Dirty Jobs" can be eliminated ;)

but perhaps/probably much harder than many nice jobs.....

Maybe we need a definition of what is an 'unskilled' job.........

Which may really mean any job that a computer/robot can do better or at least cheaper/easier for the boss .........

And that definition is likely to expand.........

Remembering the Brain Center at Mr.Whipple's Toilet Paper ;) Factory in the Twilight Zone......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brain_ ... hipple%27s





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_Jobs

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Re: Pope Francis and the Countercuria

Postby YMix » Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:23 am

I'm surprised that nobody has posted this yet.

Pope Francis asks Patriarch Bartholomew I to bless him and “the Church of Rome”

“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
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Re: Pope Francis and the Countercuria

Postby Endovelico » Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:28 pm

Enki wrote:This makes me hopeful.

Especially in light of the fact that just about every unskilled job is going to be erased over the next two decades.


As productivity increases the unskilled will/could be used in one of our future major jobs: environment protection and repairing all the crimes against nature which we have committed for the last three or four hundred years. It is our responsibility to preserve the planet and all the species living upon it, and doing it could keep many millions of people busy all over the planet for very many years.
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Re: Pope Francis and the Countercuria

Postby Doc » Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:15 pm

Endovelico wrote:
Enki wrote:This makes me hopeful.

Especially in light of the fact that just about every unskilled job is going to be erased over the next two decades.


As productivity increases the unskilled will/could be used in one of our future major jobs: environment protection and repairing all the crimes against nature which we have committed for the last three or four hundred years. It is our responsibility to preserve the planet and all the species living upon it, and doing it could keep many millions of people busy all over the planet for very many years.



Or a machine intelligence could decide the best way to rid the world of the complaints about problems, would be to get rid of all the humans.
The classes and the races to weak to master the new conditions of life must give way {..} They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust --Karl Marx
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Re: Pope Francis and the Countercuria

Postby Simple Minded » Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:46 pm

Doc wrote:
Or a machine intelligence could decide the best way to rid the world of the complaints about problems, would be to get rid of all the humans.


:lol:

Nice Doc! When I first read this I thought it was a YMix post.

"WE don't need no sitnkin clean water! WE need clean synthetic oil. What human need, WE no care!"

Obviously, the above AI was not an English major. ;)
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Re: Pope Francis and the Countercuria

Postby Nonc Hilaire » Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:51 pm

"Our Customer Satisfaction Manager is Helen Hunt. If you wish to speak with a manager regarding our employees or our policies, please go to Helen Hunt."
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

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Re: Pope Francis and the Countercuria

Postby Simple Minded » Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:00 pm

Nonc Hilaire wrote:"Our Customer Satisfaction Manager is Helen Hunt. If you wish to speak with a manager regarding our employees or our policies, please go to Helen Hunt."


I thought her name was Helen Weight.
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Re: Pope Francis and the Countercuria

Postby noddy » Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:27 am

she was married to Yorrick.
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Re: Pope Francis and the Countercuria

Postby Simple Minded » Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:43 pm

noddy wrote:she was married to Yorrick.


Yorrick Weight?
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Re: Pope Francis and the Countercuria

Postby Azrael » Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:06 am

YMix wrote:I'm surprised that nobody has posted this yet.

Pope Francis asks Patriarch Bartholomew I to bless him and “the Church of Rome”


The Byzantine Empire is alive and relatively well :wink:
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Re: Pope Francis and the Countercuria

Postby YMix » Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:08 am

Pope fed 'poisoned bait' by conservatives

Conservatives within the Catholic Church are trying to lay "poisoned bait" for Pope Francis, it has been claimed just days after the pontiff faced a rebellion from Vatican cardinals opposed to his more liberal stance.

With the Pontiff mid-way through a Vatican summit on the family that has been dogged by scandal and rumours of plotting, Italian newspapers on Wednesday reported numerous accounts of plots to destabilise Pope Francis.

Nello Scavo, a journalist at Avvenire, an Italian daily linked to the Catholic Church, told La Repubblica there was a concerted move to "weaken the character and the strength of Pope Francis".

“There is an ideological battle, it is true,” said Mr Scavo, the author of a new book entitled The Enemies of Francis. "In recent years there have also been some inside the curia who have tried to lay poisoned bait for Francis."

He cited the example of Krzysztof Charamsa, a senior Vatican official and Polish priest, who came out publicly as gay just a day before the Vatican summit began, criticising what he called "institutionalised homophobia in the church".

Monsignor Charamsa also claimed that a majority of priests were gay, before being sacked just hours later by the Vatican.

Leonardo Boff, a theologian who has close ties with the pope, told Oggi magazine it was "a trap set by those on the right of the church who oppose the pope".

"Because he [Charamsa] didn't do it in a simple way," he added. "But in a provocative way in order to create problems for the Synod and for Francis".

On Monday the three-week debate tackling thorny issues such as homosexuality and divorce was thrown into chaos as a rebellious letter to Pope Francis signed by 13 cardinals was leaked to Italy’s L’Espresso magazine.

The letter urged against abandoning key elements of Catholic doctrine, warning the Catholic church risked collapse in the same way liberal protestant churches had done.

Federico Lombardi, chief Vatican spokesman, described the letter as an "an act of disturbance".

Vatican experts warned certain sections of the church were trying to recreate the climate that lead to the Vatileaks scandal, when a series of secret documents were leaked alleging corruption and nepotism within the Vatican administration.

Pope Francis issued a surprise public apology this week for the scandals which have shaken the Vatican and Rome in recent weeks.

"I want, in the name of the Church, to ask forgiveness for the scandals which have recently hit Rome and the Vatican. I ask you for forgiveness," Pope Francis said at the start of his weekly general audience in Saint Peter's Square.

"It is inevitable that scandals happen, but 'woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!'" he said, quoting a passage from the Bible.

Vatican expert Joshua McElwee writing in the National Catholic Reporter described the apology as an "extraordinary step".

The scandal of the letter has only intensified since it was leaked after four of the alleged signatories denied involvement. The alleged leader of the rebellion, George Pell, the Pope's Finance minister, claimed the leaked version had "errors".

Around 270 cardinals, archbishops and bishops have been brought together at the Synod to discuss contentious issues such as celibacy for priests, abortion, the Church’s stance towards homosexuals and whether to grant Communion to divorced Catholics who have then remarried.

The gathering is seen as ideological battleground between the conservative and progressive wings of the Catholic Church.



Pell vs Pope

Cardinal George Pell sent the Pope a public warning in July about his lurch to the Left:

Cardinal George Pell has publicly criticised Pope Francis’ decision to place climate change at the top of the Catholic Church’s agenda.

Cardinal Pell, a well-known climate change skeptic, told the Financial Times the church had “no particular expertise in science”.

“The church has got no mandate from the Lord to pronounce on scientific matters,” he said,

“We believe in the autonomy of science.”

It is now close to all-out war:

Civil war has erupted at the top of the Catholic Church, with 13 ­cardinals, including Australia’s George Pell, warning the Pope in a letter that the church is in ­danger of collapsing like liberal Protestant churches in the modern era.

The cardinals say the threat of collapse has been accelerated by the “abandonment of key elements of Christian belief and practice in the name of pastoral adaptation’’.

As well as Cardinal Pell, the Vatican’s Secretary for the Economy, cardinals from Bologna, ­Toronto, New York, Galveston, Nairobi, Mexico, Utrecht, Durban and Caracas signed the letter, as well as other senior Vatican ­officials. These included Guinean Cardinal Robert Sarah, the church’s Prefect for Divine Worship, and German Cardinal Gerhard Mueller, the Prefect for Doctrine.

The row centres on the three-week Synod on the Family under way in Rome and being attended by about 300 delegates, mainly bishops, from around the world…

The letter complained the ­process seemed “designed to ­facilitate predetermined results on important disputed questions’’. Several of the signatories, including Cardinal Pell, have also raised concerns ­inside the synod…

One point of contention is whether long-established rules should be changed to allow divorced and civilly remarried Cath­olics to receive communion…

In a statement ­released after the leaking of the letter, a spokesman for Cardinal Pell said: “There is strong agreement in the synod on most points but obviously there is some disagreement because minority elements want to change the church’s teachings on the proper dispositions necessary for the ­reception of communion. Obviously there is no possibility of change on this doctrine.”
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Re: Pope Francis and the Countercuria

Postby Simple Minded » Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:21 am

Sounds like the Vatican is launching a reality TV series. Good fund raising idea.
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