Moon/Space Colonization Thread

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Moon/Space Colonization Thread

Post by monster_gardener »

Something we/US/the World needs to do: all eggs in one basket is a very bad idea....... especially when so many of the egg carriers are over ambitious, greedy, corrupt, fanatical and/or just plain crazy
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Newt proposes Moon Colony..........

Post by monster_gardener »

Since this is current for the moment, putting it here.......... move if desired

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/newt-g ... ePage=true

Newt has found something to make me want to vote for him.................

Obama has pretty well screwed what little chance that I would vote for him........


and

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... ds-newsxml

Romney better select Rand as Veep if he wants my vote now...........
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Re: Moon/Space Colonization Thread

Post by Demon of Undoing »

Any idea of going to the moon any time soon is ludicrous.

Saturn V stats:

Capacity
Payload to LEO 262,000 pounds (119,000 kg)
Payload to
TLI (100,000 pounds (45,000 kg))

Delta V( Heavy)

Capacity
Payload to LEO 8,600 - 22,560 kg (18,900 - 49,740 lb)
Payload to
GTO 3,900 - 12,980 kg (8,500 - 28,620 lb)

So, the biggest booster we have now can push a fifth of the weight to LEO, and doesn't even vaguely have the architecture to go lunar. If Newt can poop out a massive boost vehicle in less than eight years, I'll eat your hat. Even NASA says the thing couldn't even begin to happen until 2017- and that's government- projections-optimism.

We have many more important things to do. I loved the space program, I think it was a retrograde maneuver to fail like we have- but reality intrudes.
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Re: Moon/Space Colonization Thread

Post by Typhoon »

Like m_g and DoU, I'm a great fan of the manned space program.

However, this announcement strikes me as a cynical attempt by the Newt [or more likely an idea dreamed up by his handlers] to associate himself with one of the great past achievements of the US.

A more realistic goal would be a commitment to keep the ISS operating in perpetuity and it's expansion,

developing a cost-effective replacement to the late space shuttle,

and development of new methods of propulsion [nuclear] that could take us from the earth to the moon in a day. Chemical rockets are so 20th century.

Also, actions rather than words on making the US independent of foreign oil and gas would make a great deal of sense in the contemporary context, but here one is up against massive entrenched interests.

Replacing coal, oil, and gas with modern nuclear [thorium] power plants would be a good start instead of the cost and scale ineffective so-called green tech.

Unfortunately it's probably a vote killer with the general [nimby] population.
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Re: Moon/Space Colonization Thread

Post by monster_gardener »

Typhoon wrote:Like m_g and DoU, I'm a great fan of the manned space program.

However, this announcement strikes me as a cynical attempt by the Newt [or more likely an idea dreamed up by his handlers] to associate himself with one of the great past achievements of the US.

A more realistic goal would be a commitment to keep the ISS operating in perpetuity and it's expansion,

developing a cost-effective replacement to the late space shuttle,

and development of new methods of propulsion [nuclear] that could take us from the earth to the moon in a day. Chemical rockets are so 20th century.

Also, actions rather than words on making the US independent of foreign oil and gas would make a great deal of sense in the contemporary context, but here one is up against massive entrenched interests.

Replacing coal, oil, and gas with modern nuclear [thorium] power plants would be a good start instead of the cost and scale ineffective so-called green tech.

Unfortunately it's probably a vote killer with the general [nimby] population.
Thank you VERY MUCH for your post, Esteemed Friend Typhoon.

Seconded.
A more realistic goal would be a commitment to keep the ISS operating in perpetuity and it's expansion,

developing a cost-effective replacement to the late space shuttle,
Quite agree.
and development of new methods of propulsion [nuclear] that could take us from the earth to the moon in a day. Chemical rockets are so 20th century.
To quote the late great Poul Anderson.....

Orion Will Rise!..........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Or ... pulsion%29

Sure, there will be some fallout but we/US/Israel/Iran/Indians/Paks/Norks/others are working toward that anyway :( :evil:

Can think of few better uses for nukes than to get us/the World off of this 3rd Rock from the Sun :wink: ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Rock_From_the_Sun

And who better than Newtron :wink: bomb :( thrower Gingrich :twisted: to help do it..........

Ok, lots of people better than Newt the Newt :wink:, but not Romney or Obama so we/US are going have to make the best of what we/US have :|
Also, actions rather than words on making the US independent of foreign oil and gas would make a great deal of sense in the contemporary context, but here one is up against massive entrenched interests.
Absolutely...........
Replacing coal, oil, and gas with modern nuclear [thorium] power plants would be a good start
Quite right again: Need to have a CANDU :wink: attitude........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANDU_reactor
instead of the cost and scale ineffective so-called green tech.
I'm cool with green ......... need to try everything ......... that works/should be done * .............. especially conservation/recycling.......

Was at a conference...... building energy savings........ a lot of retrofit takes too long to make sense but lights that turn themselves off when no one is there do............... got one for my house ........
Unfortunately it's probably a vote killer with the general [nimby] population.
Possibly/Probably unless the imagination can be stimulated

or

Another military space race :roll: China etc............

Better to do space internationally.......... better genetic mix ........... less genetic drift .......... if we/US/the World can


Unverified heard on the radio today: if a nation sets up a large enough colony on the Moon, it could claim it as its own territory....... and the Moon would be a great place from which to throw kinetic energy weapons (effectively nukes without the fallout) at Earth :evil: The dinosaurs agree...........

But the tech could also used to do much good......... L5 Trojan point colonies......... out to the asteroids and beyond :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coilgun

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Re: Moon/Space Colonization Thread

Post by AzariLoveIran »

Typhoon wrote:.

Like m_g and DoU, I'm a great fan of the manned space program.

.

Does space hold more interesting scientific and natural discovery and interesting issues for humanity .. in any domain imaginable .. or .. our planet earth ? ?

Any honest scientist would say planet earth

Space does not hold anything detrimental to human race for the next 100 yrs (probably 500 yrs)

Zero

We would get "microwave oven" or micro-processors no matter what

Planet earth is, in any domain of science, any domain, is, still 99.99% undiscovered

Space only interesting for military purpose .. that is only justification (for America, China, Russia and Iran) .. nothing else

Imagine, Colonel Sun, you are on Mars .. what kind of science would you research there ?

Zero

but

here on our planet Earth

it's raining with scientific opportunities

come on, come on

Gingrige is a charlatan par excellence .. but Joe (the 6 pack) not dummy used 2B either

.
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Re: Moon/Space Colonization Thread

Post by Demon of Undoing »

I have no problem with unmanned at a reasonable level as a test bed for tech. The militarization of space is a done deal, regardless of moons or Mars. The USAF runs our space program almost in total.
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Re: Moon/Space Colonization Thread

Post by Typhoon »

monster_gardener wrote: . . .
instead of the cost and scale ineffective so-called green tech.
I'm cool with green ......... need to try everything ......... that works/should be done * .............. especially conservation/recycling.......

Was at a conference...... building energy savings........ a lot of retrofit takes too long to make sense but lights that turn themselves off when no one is there do............... got one for my house ........

. . .
Conservation makes good sense. It is the delusional belief that the energy requirements of a modern industrial state can be met by bird-shredders more commonly known as windmills that I have issue with.
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Re: Moon/Space Colonization Thread

Post by AzariLoveIran »

Demon of Undoing wrote:.

I have no problem with unmanned at a reasonable level as a test bed for tech.

.
once we talking of unmanned, robots, the cost becomes peanuts
Demon of Undoing wrote:.

The militarization of space is a done deal, regardless of moons or Mars. The USAF runs our space program almost in total.

.
Militarization of space means earth orbit, even, "not high" orbit .. does not mean Mars or Jupiter, not even Moon

and

military stuff, weapon, even weapon of mass destruction of any sort, circling us, no more American or western exclusivity .. this too, like Hiroshima & Nagasaki bomb, will prove down the road really stupid .. come a time, things will be really scarey, for "everybody"


.
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Re: Moon/Space Colonization Thread

Post by Enki »

Newt Gingrich has quite literally, promised us the Moon.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Re: Moon/Space Colonization Thread

Post by monster_gardener »

AzariLoveIran wrote:
Typhoon wrote:.

Like m_g and DoU, I'm a great fan of the manned space program.

.

Does space hold more interesting scientific and natural discovery and interesting issues for humanity .. in any domain imaginable .. or .. our planet earth ? ?

Any honest scientist would say planet earth

Space does not hold anything detrimental to human race for the next 100 yrs (probably 500 yrs)

Zero

We would get "microwave oven" or micro-processors no matter what

Planet earth is, in any domain of science, any domain, is, still 99.99% undiscovered

Space only interesting for military purpose .. that is only justification (for America, China, Russia and Iran) .. nothing else

Imagine, Colonel Sun, you are on Mars .. what kind of science would you research there ?

Zero

but

here on our planet Earth

it's raining with scientific opportunities

come on, come on

Gingrige is a charlatan par excellence .. but Joe (the 6 pack) not dummy used 2B either

.
Thank you Very Much for your post, Azari.
Does space hold more interesting scientific and natural discovery and interesting issues for humanity .. in any domain imaginable .. or .. our planet earth ? ?
Space IMVHO holds the most important interesting issue for humanity: potential long term survival against the both the self inflicted blows of humans and those of Mother Nature who can be mean as well as green: Ask the Dinosaurs.............

Space holds plenty of dangers: notably high kinetic energy impact weapons a.k.a Earth orbit crossing asteroids and Comets ;) who might be able to scour human life on earth like dirt in a sink ;) :twisted: :(

Image
Planet earth is, in any domain of science, any domain, is, still 99.99% undiscovered
Granted and I like the idea of exploring/colonizing inner space too...... our Captain Murphy in Sea Lab :wink: might be able to survive say a nuclear war........

And for that reason I am glad that we/US are FINALLY putting female crew on our nuke subs despite the "hot bunking" ;)

If the balloon goes up and "We all live on a yellow submarine" :wink: :twisted: it would be a shame if the crew was all one sex...............

WbmFTK4t3JU
Imagine, Colonel Sun, you are on Mars .. what kind of science would you research there ?

Zero
If I can imagine doing research on Mars, I'm pretty darn sure Col. Sun Typhoon can do it better but I'll try:

How about terraforming Mars by diverting water ice/methane comets to impact Mars releasing water and methane both of which are potent green house gases to get both the temperature and atmospheric pressure up...........

Hmmmmmn................. Let's see how I did........... Oops, looks like I didn't consider the need for nitrogen/ammonia.......... But not bad.... Just got to
make that is another component of the ice used..............

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraforming_of_Mars
Gingrige is a charlatan par excellence .. but Joe (the 6 pack) not dummy used 2B either
Not much disagreement......

At best Newt the Newt may be a reformed sinner................... He got better :lol: :lol: :lol:

xzYO0joolR0

.......... but hope springs eternal............ hoping we/US can use him ........to get the Moon/Future for Humanity ......especially if he picks Ron or Rand Paul as Veep.
Last edited by monster_gardener on Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Moon/Space Colonization Thread

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Jon Stewart on the Gingrich promise to colonize the moon:

"He'll be the first person to leave the earth for a younger planet!"
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Re: Moon/Space Colonization Thread

Post by Typhoon »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:Jon Stewart on the Gingrich promise to colonize the moon:

"He'll be the first person to leave the earth for a younger planet!"
Very good.
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Re: Moon/Space Colonization Thread

Post by monster_gardener »

Enki wrote:Newt Gingrich has quite literally, promised us the Moon.
Thank you Very Much for your post, Tinker Enki.

And if elected, I/we/US should hold him to it :wink:......................
liquidates his assets, risks bankruptcy, damages his marriage, and raises funds in numerous legitimate and semi-legitimate ways; "I," he says, "would cheat, lie, steal, beg, bribe — do anything to accomplish what we have accomplished."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Sold_the_Moon

Some of this sounds a little familiar................
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Re: Moon/Space Colonization Thread

Post by Alexis »

After 50 years of manned space travel, the only remaining means of human transportation to low Earth orbit is a modified version of the 1967 Soviet expendable spaceship, launched by a slightly modified version of the very launcher which propelled the first man into space in 1961 after having launched the first satellite in 1957!

Ah yes, add a Chinese "Me-Too" clone of same, and it's all.

Humans beyond orbit up to the Moon, humans on (partly) reusable space launchers are but a thing of the past.

The USA are preparing a new human spaceship, which they may launch at some point in the future (budget permitting), and which would at this time allow to reach Earth orbit, just like in the 1960s. Europeans could prepare such a spaceship if they decided too. Just like the Japanese.

Coulda. Woulda.

Let's cut the b...:

- Human space transportation has barely advanced since the 1960s: the partly reusable Space Shuttle was more expensive than capsules while its very purpose was to be much cheaper, lunar expeditions while remarkable were one-shot because of their astounding costs, nothing better than 1960s technology has been produced in spite of decades of studying reusable vehicle concepts. As a consequence, the tried-and-proved, robustly and simply engineered (Russian way) and comparatively cheap Soyuz is the best human spaceship to date

- Human space stationing has barely advanced since the 1980s: the Mir space station allowed the longest human stays in space to date, experienced modular space station construction, extended space experimenting... The present ISS is basically the American "Me-Too" version of Mir, with small adjuncts from Europe and Japan. Of course, it's much more expensive than Mir was: again, the most simply engineered (Russian) version is the cheapest

- Since human space technology is blocked to 1960s (transport) / 1980s (station) level, this while umpteen billions have been fruitlessly spent trying to improve on it, since no new technology for human transport to space is being seen, since in addition spending for space travel will in all probability decrease because of a generational economic crisis, there is no realistic possibility for space travel to advance significantly within the next few decades Space travel as presently envisioned is a mature technology, offering little if any room for improvement

"In the long term", yes, humankind will quite certainly travel to planets, even stars. To begin with, Mars will be visited by people

But we who are used to a rapid rate of technological progress tend to forget that such accelerated rates of progress are quite transient phenomenons in human history. It's quite possible that rate of progress will slow to standstill in the coming decades (or even reverse?). And even if some progress does happen, it would be much slower. While even if progress continues quite rapidly during this century, it would not go forward in all directions and might be stagnant in the human transportation field.

Travel to planets may well be centuries, even millenia in the future. Mars will have to wait...
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Re: Moon/Space Colonization Thread

Post by monster_gardener »

Alexis wrote:After 50 years of manned space travel, the only remaining means of human transportation to low Earth orbit is a modified version of the 1967 Soviet expendable spaceship, launched by a slightly modified version of the very launcher which propelled the first man into space in 1961 after having launched the first satellite in 1957!

Ah yes, add a Chinese "Me-Too" clone of same, and it's all.

Humans beyond orbit up to the Moon, humans on (partly) reusable space launchers are but a thing of the past.

The USA are preparing a new human spaceship, which they may launch at some point in the future (budget permitting), and which would at this time allow to reach Earth orbit, just like in the 1960s. Europeans could prepare such a spaceship if they decided too. Just like the Japanese.

Coulda. Woulda.

Let's cut the b...:

- Human space transportation has barely advanced since the 1960s: the partly reusable Space Shuttle was more expensive than capsules while its very purpose was to be much cheaper, lunar expeditions while remarkable were one-shot because of their astounding costs, nothing better than 1960s technology has been produced in spite of decades of studying reusable vehicle concepts. As a consequence, the tried-and-proved, robustly and simply engineered (Russian way) and comparatively cheap Soyuz is the best human spaceship to date

- Human space stationing has barely advanced since the 1980s: the Mir space station allowed the longest human stays in space to date, experienced modular space station construction, extended space experimenting... The present ISS is basically the American "Me-Too" version of Mir, with small adjuncts from Europe and Japan. Of course, it's much more expensive than Mir was: again, the most simply engineered (Russian) version is the cheapest

- Since human space technology is blocked to 1960s (transport) / 1980s (station) level, this while umpteen billions have been fruitlessly spent trying to improve on it, since no new technology for human transport to space is being seen, since in addition spending for space travel will in all probability decrease because of a generational economic crisis, there is no realistic possibility for space travel to advance significantly within the next few decades Space travel as presently envisioned is a mature technology, offering little if any room for improvement

"In the long term", yes, humankind will quite certainly travel to planets, even stars. To begin with, Mars will be visited by people

But we who are used to a rapid rate of technological progress tend to forget that such accelerated rates of progress are quite transient phenomenons in human history. It's quite possible that rate of progress will slow to standstill in the coming decades (or even reverse?). And even if some progress does happen, it would be much slower. While even if progress continues quite rapidly during this century, it would not go forward in all directions and might be stagnant in the human transportation field.

Travel to planets may well be centuries, even millenia in the future. Mars will have to wait...
Thank you Very Much for your post, Alexis.

You may be right about the stagnation.

Though IMVVHO all it sadly would take to get a Space going again is for the Chinese to put men/women in orbit or especially on the Moon..............

"In the long term", yes, humankind will quite certainly travel to planets, even stars. To begin with, Mars will be visited by people
I HOPE you are right about this...........

Given our greedy meme driven natures, I worry though.............

Right now we/US luxurious Democrats intent on spreading the democracy meme & Israelis with a "NEVER Again! Masada meme" appear to be getting ready for a fight with some ME types infected with the Madhi Madness & Muslim Memes or at best Persian Resurgence Meme.........

Not a good situation, reminds me a little of a situation in Ancient Greece where something small as a whore house kerfuffle expanded into near total war.......

http://www.historywiz.com/historymakers ... istophanes

Plus who knows when a big rock or comet might try to scour us/the World off the living list.......... **

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potentiall ... s_Asteroid

Given the Gravity :wink: of the situation, this is a reason I am tempted to support Newton :wink: "Newt" "Themistocles" Gingrich when he promises the Moon.......base ...........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Themistocl ... _and_exile

That's why like Admiral Farragut*, I say "Damn the torpedoes oops I mean Fallout, full speed ahead!"

Orion the Nuclear Will Rise!

Orion the Nuclear MUST Rise!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Or ... pulsion%29

Why Worry?

It looks like we/US/the Israelis/Disciples of the Damnable Queer :twisted: Khan of Pakistan ** may be getting ready to use the nukes for less beneficial purposes....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Qadeer_Khan


*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Farr ... _Civil_War

** Another risk is that a lesser hit might set of a nuclear war............ What would have happened if the

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunguska_event

Had occurred 50 years later and maybe over US :shock:

Moonbasing ;) is dangerous but not as dangerous as doing nothing............
Last edited by monster_gardener on Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Moon/Space Colonization Thread

Post by crashtech »

It's shortsighted not to consider human outposts on other worlds as a national security objective; such is my minarchist rationale for public funding of space exploration. Despite all of Alexis' valid objections, I am a firm believer in "learn by doing." I would much rather fund a coherent space exploration program than fund more overseas military escapades. A robust space program might be a good way for the US to channel its restless energy and leave the neighbors alone.
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Re: Moon/Space Colonization Thread

Post by monster_gardener »

crashtech wrote:It's shortsighted not to consider human outposts on other worlds as a national security objective; such is my minarchist rationale for public funding of space exploration. Despite all of Alexis' valid objections, I am a firm believer in "learn by doing." I would much rather fund a coherent space exploration program than fund more overseas military escapades. A robust space program might be a good way for the US to channel its restless energy and leave the neighbors alone.
Thank you VERY MUCH for your post, Crashtech.

Quite.

Seconded in Total!

Good post!
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We/US/World dodged the bullet again Asteroid 2012_BX34

Post by monster_gardener »

We/US/World dodged the bullet again: Asteroid 2012_BX34
An asteroid the size of a bus is set to pass extremely close to Earth today.

The asteroid 2012 BX34, will pass within 36,750 miles of Earth at about 3:30 p.m GMT/10:30am EST Friday, tweeted astronomers with NASA's Asteroid Watch program.

Even though this is more than five times closer than the moon, at 11 meters wide, the rock won’t be any threat to Earth
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... z1l8GSYDuL


Or rather a BB ;) ................this one was too small to do much if any damage..........

but the point is how little warning we/US/World had: discovered on the 25th, close pass on the 27th.........

Hopefully we MIGHT have more/enough warning if a dangerous one heads our way...............

but not guaranteed............ some are much darker than others............ and somebody has to be watching/looking the right way for long enough to notice its movement.........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_BX34
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Re: Moon/Space Colonization Thread

Post by Alexis »

monster_gardener wrote:Though IMVVHO all it sadly would take to get a Space going again is for the Chinese to put men/women in orbit or especially on the Moon..............
The "Gagarin + Kennedy" model of starting a Space race.

The issue is that while Chinese have already put people in orbit -eliciting no measurable reaction by the US-, puting people on the Moon is incompably more expensive, it needs giant launchers similar to Saturn V / Energya and other specialized hardware developed for that purpose only:
- Why would China spend so much resources over many years, just to try humiliate America with in-your-eye such as "We can repeat the remarkable feats of your ancestors, while you have declined too much for that"
- Assuming China would do that, what more could be expected than a US reaction of pride "We'll show you that we still can", leading to 2 modernized Apollo programs instead of one, leading to... stopping the flights a few years after because on Chinese as well as on American side the point would have been made, and those flights are just as incredibly expensive as in 1969?
"In the long term", yes, humankind will quite certainly travel to planets, even stars. To begin with, Mars will be visited by people
I HOPE you are right about this...........

Given our greedy meme driven natures, I worry though.............
Travel to planets is in my view almost inevitable because it's clearly physically possible, and end of humankind is not planned anytime soon. However, "long term" might be... really long.

Europeans or Africans crossing the Atlantics was inevitable given the ability to build large ships and continuous improvement of same. That reasoning was already valid at the time of the Peloponnesian War. It's just that so much time elapsed that when the crossing eventually happened, the people performing it were from nations (Spain & Portugal) which did not even exist at the time of Ancient Greece, speaking languages which were not spoken for more than a millenium after the time of Ancient Greeks!

The first humans to set foot on Mars might very well hail from nations presently not existent, speaking languages nobody will understand before the fourth millenium!

Who knows?
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Re: Moon/Space Colonization Thread

Post by Aferim »

see also:

Hypersonic bolus
Launch Loop
Orbital Ring
Rotovator
Skyhook
Space fountain

Note that Terra's gravity well is too deep for most of of these methods with current material tech.
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Enki
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Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:04 pm

Re: Moon/Space Colonization Thread

Post by Enki »

Alexis wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:Though IMVVHO all it sadly would take to get a Space going again is for the Chinese to put men/women in orbit or especially on the Moon..............
The "Gagarin + Kennedy" model of starting a Space race.

The issue is that while Chinese have already put people in orbit -eliciting no measurable reaction by the US-, puting people on the Moon is incompably more expensive, it needs giant launchers similar to Saturn V / Energya and other specialized hardware developed for that purpose only:
- Why would China spend so much resources over many years, just to try humiliate America with in-your-eye such as "We can repeat the remarkable feats of your ancestors, while you have declined too much for that"
- Assuming China would do that, what more could be expected than a US reaction of pride "We'll show you that we still can", leading to 2 modernized Apollo programs instead of one, leading to... stopping the flights a few years after because on Chinese as well as on American side the point would have been made, and those flights are just as incredibly expensive as in 1969?
"In the long term", yes, humankind will quite certainly travel to planets, even stars. To begin with, Mars will be visited by people
I HOPE you are right about this...........

Given our greedy meme driven natures, I worry though.............
Travel to planets is in my view almost inevitable because it's clearly physically possible, and end of humankind is not planned anytime soon. However, "long term" might be... really long.

Europeans or Africans crossing the Atlantics was inevitable given the ability to build large ships and continuous improvement of same. That reasoning was already valid at the time of the Peloponnesian War. It's just that so much time elapsed that when the crossing eventually happened, the people performing it were from nations (Spain & Portugal) which did not even exist at the time of Ancient Greece, speaking languages which were not spoken for more than a millenium after the time of Ancient Greeks!

The first humans to set foot on Mars might very well hail from nations presently not existent, speaking languages nobody will understand before the fourth millenium!

Who knows?
I don't think nations as such will make it out of the twenty-first century.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
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