The Spread of the Caliphate: The [Wannabe] Islamic State

This too shall pass.
Post Reply
User avatar
Typhoon
Posts: 27242
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:42 pm
Location: 関西

Re: The Obama Caliphate

Post by Typhoon »

So what should the West do?
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
User avatar
Nonc Hilaire
Posts: 6168
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:28 am

Re: The Obama Caliphate

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

A Reagan era Republican conservative has a different take:
Washington’s strategy in Iraq is in shambles, but not just because America’s spanker-in-chief is really a wimp at heart. The problem is far more generic. To wit, the geographic territory of Iraq is not a nation; it is an arbitrary series of lines on a map drawn 100 years ago by dandies in the foreign offices of two fading empires (the British and the French)—–which lines encircled numerous tribes, ethnicities and religious confessions that had no interest in sharing a common statehood.

In the subsequent century, the warring peoples corralled within the Sykes-Picot boundaries were ram-rodded into a tenuous co-existence by a series of brutal monarchs, generals and dictators, backed up by British and American occupiers. But then the neo-con geniuses in the George W. Bush Administration hung the last dictator and the poll readers in the Obama White House had the good sense to adhere to their campaign pledge and bug out.

They left behind $25 billion in military training and state-of-the-art warfare equipment, but neither a dictator nor a nation. Indeed, under the latter heading they had endeavored to build a nation where there had been none, but ended up liquidating the machinery—–the Republican Guards and the Baathist political party—that in the most recent era had enforced co-existence with machine guns and poison gas canisters.

Foolishly claiming America’s job was done at the end of 2011 when the last GIs boarded transports out of Baghdad, Barack Obama was actually opening the gates of hell without a clue as to the furies that would soon come swarming through. Well, they are all here now with blood soaked hands grasping their weapons and agitated tongues issuing the spittle of revenge and historic enmities.

Yet the foolish man in the White House and his historically illiterate advisors keep banging the same old failed lever. Namely, they are once again attempting to deploy bombs, dollars and hortatory commands to cajole and herd Sunni, Shiite, Kurds and numerous other sectarian and tribal fragments from the time warp of history into a common polity—-a purported nation that would do Washington’s bidding in the ancient lands of Mesopotamia.

So doing, they are attempting to mobilize the alleged Iraqi nation against the freshly minted threat of the Islamic State. But yesterday’s news about the relief of the ISIS siege on the northern town of Amirli underscores how truly senile and clueless the Washington War party has actually become.

Yes, it was American bombers who spared the 17,000 Shiite Turkmen besieged there of the horrible prospect of a Sunni conversion at the sword. Consider, however, the associated and allied forces on the ground which essentially observed and reported the flight of the ISIS fighters from Washington’s aerial onslaught.

There was the Kurdish Peshmerga army that for years occupied a high rank on the State Department’s list of terrorist organizations. And also on hand were various and sundry Shiite militias—–many of which have been aligned, funded or even directed from the headquarters of the Axis of Evil, the allegedly terrorist nation of Iran. Indeed, as one Sunni politician confessed to a Wall Street Journal reporter:

“We don’t really have an army. Maliki just created a sectarian army, working with militias,” said Hamid Al Mutlaq, a prominent Sunni politician. “A lot of criminals, killers and bad people were included.”

Shiite militias such as the Badr Corps, the Hizbullah Brigades, Asaib Ahl Al Haq and the Mehdi Army, have all been accused of abuses against Sunnis.

But the frosting on the cake came from Washington’s former man in charge—outgoing prime minister, Nouri al-Maliki. Making his last hurrah, he showed up at Amirli praising the Shiite militia men for their heroics—-perhaps including those who only weeks earlier wiped out 70 Sunni worshippers in a nearby town—while failing to even mention the American warplanes which had actually done the job or the Peshmerga that have actually carried the fight against ISIS in the north.

He then went on to remind the world that there is actually no such thing as an “Iraqi army” but only the armed Shiite in Iraqi uniforms or their own militia. Accordingly, Maliki called this wholly transient and irrelevant relief of one tiny town among the checkerboard of vestigial religious sects which occupy the upper Tigress-Euphrates Valley “a second Karbala”.

Well, no wonder the Sunni are alienated! That’s the battle of Gettysburg on steroids. Its where the 13-century long schism between the Sunni and Shiite all started.

As for the retreating ISIS warriors, never mind that their ranks were formed during the US engineered “surge” in Anbar province in 2007-2008 and the CIA training camps for Syrian rebels in Jordan during more recent months. At least the American bombers did destroy a few more American Humvees.

And that’s actually the point. American bombers can destroy the equipment left behind from the Bush occupation, but that’s about all. The second battle of Karbala! Please, can Washington possibly get a more poignant reminder that it cannot bomb or bribe an Iraqi nation into existence?

Indeed, it is time for Washington to learn to celebrate the letter “P”. It stands for partition. Let the Kurds have their nation in the northeast and make their political and economic arrangements—already well advanced–with Turkey. Let the south of Iraq congeal into a Shiite province—-loosely or otherwise affiliated with Iran, which together might form an effective barrier to the expansionary ambitions of the Islamic State.

And finally, let ISIS try to govern 8 million people in the dusty villages and impoverished desert expanse of the Euphrates Valley by means of the sword and medieval precepts of Sharia law. The resulting “blowback” from the bestirred people of the ISIS occupied lands will do more for the safety and security of the American people than all the drones and bombers that Washington could send to forge a puppet nation within borders that have already been deposited in the dustbin of history.
http://davidstockmanscontracorner.com/m ... -build-it/
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

Teresa of Ávila
User avatar
monster_gardener
Posts: 5334
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:36 am
Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........

What Should the Non-Muslim World Do....

Post by monster_gardener »

Typhoon wrote:So what should the West do?
Thank YOU VERY MUCH for Your Post and For Maintaining the Forum, Typhoon.

It's not just the West......

Recalling that Japanese have been killed both in the Middle East AND in Japan itself by Jihadis.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitoshi_Igarashi

And that China has a Muslim problem too......

As does Africa with Boko Harum.....

As does India with Pakistan.....

Really, it's all non-Muslims unwilling to convert or get slapped around while submitting to Islam's crap control freak rules and paying extorted protection money IF the Caliphate even offers that option...

Conquering the Entire World is the Agenda for the Islamists/Caliphate....

For the moment, I'd say that making sure the Caliphate Commandos don't come to non Muslim lands and do damage as in 911 or Belsan or London should be a high priority..... :idea:

And stopping any that are here already.....

Otherwise mostly killing as many Caliphate Commandos and supporters as quickly as possible by whatever means most appropriate, effective and practical......

Hopefully faster than the Commandos expand and kill non-Muslims....

So that Muslims tempted to go feral/jihadi decide that is not such a smart idea even if that means they don't get to do cool things :roll: like cut off the heads of Infidels with a small dull knife..... :twisted: :evil:

This may mean giving support to the Kurds and at least not hassling President Dr. Bashir Assad of Syria for the time being....

And staying out of the way if Iran's general Ghassem ;) decides to Ghassem ;) :twisted:

All the while remembering that while Kurds are the not so bad guys right now, they can be VERY BAD as seen in the Armenian Holocaust and with the Kurdish Mullah Krekar who also aims at Muslim domination....

And that President Dr. Assad not so long ago was building nukes till the Israelis knocked out the operation....

And that Iran wants to do a SHIiTe version of conquering the World with the Mad Mahdi.....

Might be nice if non-Muslims started seriously cooperating on stopping Islamists instead of hassling each over the Ukraine (Hint: Obama) and little islands in the South China Sea (Hint: China).....

And of course there is the Milo Doctrine......

And that possibility that all of this could build into a civilization destroying war or worse, so it is way past time to have sustainable colonies off planet just in case things get really screwed on Earth with WMDs: nukes, bioplague etc....

Success is not guaranteed..... Imagining what might happen if the Caliphate got nukes from Pakistan or elsewhere.....

What do you think should be done?....
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
User avatar
Doc
Posts: 12562
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:10 pm

Re: The Obama Caliphate

Post by Doc »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:A Reagan era Republican conservative has a different take:
Washington’s strategy in Iraq is in shambles, but not just because America’s spanker-in-chief is really a wimp at heart. The problem is far more generic. To wit, the geographic territory of Iraq is not a nation; it is an arbitrary series of lines on a map drawn 100 years ago by dandies in the foreign offices of two fading empires (the British and the French)—–which lines encircled numerous tribes, ethnicities and religious confessions that had no interest in sharing a common statehood.


http://davidstockmanscontracorner.com/m ... -build-it/
James baker said the same thing. It was up to the Iraqi people. We could pave the way, and did until Obama came along, by adding stability but they have to start acting democratic. IE we got the bear in the cabin for them for them to kill it. They were doing much better when Bush left office. It was the pull out of troops that left the power vacuum. That facts say that is true. The amount of violence had gone way done from its peak. Down to where it was before the invasion. Malaki knew Obama was going to pull out. That pushed him even closer to the militias Iran and corruption to stay in power, out of a sense of personal survival. That is why he did not want to resign. He figured he would be dead soon after.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
User avatar
Doc
Posts: 12562
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:10 pm

Re: The Obama Caliphate

Post by Doc »

Typhoon wrote:So what should the West do?
The only thing the West can do is convince the Jihadis and their supporters that the fight is so terrible and/or so unwinnable that they don't want to fight anymore. Leave them alone and the roosters will come home.....

http://news.siteintelgroup.com/blog/ind ... Itemid=122
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
User avatar
YMix
Posts: 4631
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:53 am
Location: Department of Congruity - Report any outliers here

Re: The Obama Caliphate

Post by YMix »

Doc wrote:The only thing the West can do is convince the Jihadis and their supporters that the fight is so terrible and/or so unwinnable that they don't want to fight anymore.
Not possible.
Leave them alone and the roosters will come home.....
Deservedly so.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
User avatar
Doc
Posts: 12562
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:10 pm

Re: The Obama Caliphate

Post by Doc »

YMix wrote:
Doc wrote:The only thing the West can do is convince the Jihadis and their supporters that the fight is so terrible and/or so unwinnable that they don't want to fight anymore.
Not possible.
Oh it is quite possible Though I lot of them would have to die for Allah first.
Leave them alone and the roosters will come home.....
Deservedly so.
Why "deservedly so"?

Another article on Jihadi recruitment:

http://news.siteintelgroup.com/blog/ind ... Itemid=122
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
User avatar
YMix
Posts: 4631
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:53 am
Location: Department of Congruity - Report any outliers here

Re: The Obama Caliphate

Post by YMix »

Doc wrote:Oh it is quite possible Though I lot of them would have to die for Allah first.
That will only weed out the weak and the careless. The more impossible the dream, the harder some people strive to achieve it. You'd think people noticed that.
Why "deservedly so"?
Take a wild guess.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
User avatar
Doc
Posts: 12562
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:10 pm

Re: The Obama Caliphate

Post by Doc »

YMix wrote:
Doc wrote:Oh it is quite possible Though I lot of them would have to die for Allah first.
That will only weed out the weak and the careless. The more impossible the dream, the harder some people strive to achieve it. You'd think people noticed that.
Why "deservedly so"?
Take a wild guess.
You tell me

BTW did you know that 16% of French citizens support ISIS? Why do you think that is true?


http://www.newsweek.com/16-french-citiz ... ?piano_t=1
16% of French Citizens Support ISIS, Poll Finds
By Madeline Grant
Filed: 8/26/14 at 12:49 PM | Updated: 8/27/14 at 11:25 AM
Islamic State
A resident of Tabqa city touring the streets on a motorcycle waves an Islamist flag in celebration after Islamic State militants took over Tabqa air base, in nearby Raqqa city August 24, 2014. Stringer/Reuters

AA

Filed Under: World, ISIS, Islamic State, France, Britain

One in six French citizens sympathises with the Islamist militant group ISIS, also known as Islamic State, a poll released this week found.

The poll of European attitudes towards the group, carried out by ICM for Russian news agency Rossiya Segodnya, revealed that 16% of French citizens have a positive opinion of ISIS. This percentage increases among younger respondents, spiking at 27% for those aged 18-24.

A recent Ifop poll placed French president Francois Hollande’s approval rating at just 18%.

Newsweek Magazine is Back In Print

The survey also tested attitudes in Britain and Germany and found that 7% of British citizens responded favourably to ISIS. However, UK polling showed an inverse demographic trend to that of France, with support for ISIS rising with age. 4% of 18-24-year-olds saying they either strongly or somewhat support ISIS, compared to 6% of 24-35-year-olds surveyed and 11% of 35-44-year-olds. Positive attitudes to ISIS in Germany showed less divergence, remaining between 3% and 4% for all age groups.

Newsweek’s France Correspondent, Anne-Elizabeth Moutet, was unsurprised by the news. “This is the ideology of young French Muslims from immigrant backgrounds,” she said, “unemployed to the tune of 40%, who’ve been deluged by satellite TV and internet propaganda.” She pointed to a correlation between support for ISIS and rising anti-Semitism in France, adding that “these are the same people who torch synagogues”.

France is home to an estimated 5 million Muslims, largely of North African descent, who arrived from the 1950s onwards in the wake of France’s decolonisation and the 1970s 'regroupement familiale' policy, which welcomed the families of migrant workers from ex-colonies.

ICM interviewed 3,007 respondents in Britain (1,000), France (1,006) and Germany (1,001) by telephone between 11th and 21st July this year, before the group released a video of an apparently British jihadist executing American journalist James Foley.

Last week a British MP claimed that as many as 1,500 British Muslims may have travelled to the Middle East to fight for ISIS, putting the figure at more than twice the number that fight for the British armed forces
.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
User avatar
YMix
Posts: 4631
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:53 am
Location: Department of Congruity - Report any outliers here

Re: The Obama Caliphate

Post by YMix »

Doc wrote:BTW did you know that 16% of French citizens support ISIS? Why do you think that is true?
<shrug> Muslims supporting their own.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
User avatar
Doc
Posts: 12562
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:10 pm

Re: The Obama Caliphate

Post by Doc »

YMix wrote:
Doc wrote:BTW did you know that 16% of French citizens support ISIS? Why do you think that is true?
<shrug> Muslims supporting their own.
The question is who do they consider "their own" and why?

Hint: In the US the important things when search for a job is What do you know and How hard do you work? In Europe it is more who are you related too? and what interest group are you a member of?

Not to say the latter does not happen in the US Just that it is far less common than Europe.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
User avatar
YMix
Posts: 4631
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:53 am
Location: Department of Congruity - Report any outliers here

Re: The Obama Caliphate

Post by YMix »

Doc wrote:Hint: In the US the important things when search for a job is What do you know and How hard do you work? In Europe it is more who are you related too? and what interest group are you a member of?
Is that so? How much experience do you have with European hiring policies?
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
User avatar
Doc
Posts: 12562
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:10 pm

Re: The Obama Caliphate

Post by Doc »

YMix wrote:
Doc wrote:Hint: In the US the important things when search for a job is What do you know and How hard do you work? In Europe it is more who are you related too? and what interest group are you a member of?
Is that so? How much experience do you have with European hiring policies?
Enough to know that there is a 40% unemployment rate among young French Muslims Which means more time on the Internet and sitting in front of sat TV. Instead of building a life making them vested French citizens.
“unemployed to the tune of 40%, who’ve been deluged by satellite TV and internet propaganda.”
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
User avatar
YMix
Posts: 4631
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:53 am
Location: Department of Congruity - Report any outliers here

Re: The Obama Caliphate

Post by YMix »

Doc wrote:Enough to know that there is a 40% unemployment rate among young French Muslims Which means more time on the Internet and sitting in front of sat TV. Instead of building a life making them vested French citizens.
And that's the fault of interest groups?
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
User avatar
Nonc Hilaire
Posts: 6168
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:28 am

Re: The Obama Caliphate

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Doc, ISIS does not appear to be Islamic at all. They are pretending.

A. Every Islamic organization condemns them. Even the Vatican agrees. ISIS are not Muslim. http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/08/ ... -isis.html

B. The number one rule for Muslims is do not harm other Muslims. Mega fail.

C. Not one, but two faked and bloodless " beheadings".

D. Muslims do not allow interest, but the first act of ISIS was to seize the Iraqi Central Bank. They aren't copying Willie Sutton. They want to control interest-based lending. If they were Muslim every bond in the place would be in a burn barrel.

Either ISIS is an old school IMF/NWO stunt, or they are a new school BRICS/NWO stunt. BRICS is not a challenge to globalization, it is a back-up plan. Just like the Bolshevik/Capitalist conflict, the same group controls both sides. ISIS is simply demagoguery 101 - find a mutual enemy to unite the population behind your agenda.

Anytime someone can point to a single source for a SNAFU this immense, they are lying. And ISIS is a lie.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

Teresa of Ávila
User avatar
monster_gardener
Posts: 5334
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:36 am
Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........

ISIS the Caliphate is Islamic....

Post by monster_gardener »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:Doc, ISIS does not appear to be Islamic at all. They are pretending.

A. Every Islamic organization condemns them. Even the Vatican agrees. ISIS are not Muslim. http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/08/ ... -isis.html

B. The number one rule for Muslims is do not harm other Muslims. Mega fail.

C. Not one, but two faked and bloodless " beheadings".

D. Muslims do not allow interest, but the first act of ISIS was to seize the Iraqi Central Bank. They aren't copying Willie Sutton. They want to control interest-based lending. If they were Muslim every bond in the place would be in a burn barrel.

Either ISIS is an old school IMF/NWO stunt, or they are a new school BRICS/NWO stunt. BRICS is not a challenge to globalization, it is a back-up plan. Just like the Bolshevik/Capitalist conflict, the same group controls both sides. ISIS is simply demagoguery 101 - find a mutual enemy to unite the population behind your agenda.

Anytime someone can point to a single source for a SNAFU this immense, they are lying. And ISIS is a lie.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Nonc Hilaire.
A. Every Islamic organization condemns them. Even the Vatican agrees. ISIS are not Muslim.
FWIW, that's not what I am hearing.... That the Taliban and others are considering to join up if they determine that ISIS/IS is a true Caliphate...
Commander Mirwais Commander Mirwais says Muslims around the world are "thirsty for an Islamic caliphate"

Fighters from a militant Islamic group in Afghanistan, allied to the Taliban, have told the BBC they are considering joining forces with Islamic State (IS).

Their commander also said they would still fight the Afghan government, even after Nato forces left in 2014.

Commander Mirwais said that if IS, which he called by its Arabic acronym Daish, proved a true Islamic caliphate, they would link up with it.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-29009125

Regarding what the Vatican thinks about who is a Muslim..... Am tempted to say "Who cares" but instead will say that unless the Vatican is back in the business ;) of opposing Muslims as it was at the Battle of Lepanto :D or if it is, Heaven forfend, in the business of aiding them as it sometimes has been as when a Villainous Vatican official aided Muslim terrorists in a murderous attempt to assassinate Golda Meier by missile :evil:, then IMVHO it really doesn't matter that much who the Vatican says is or is not a Muslim except perhaps when determining if a convert has truly renounced Islam :D for Roman Catholic Christianity... :idea:

B. The number one rule for Muslims is do not harm other Muslims. Mega fail.
Not really....

Definitions matter: Who is a TRUE Muslim..... For example: Is an Alawite considered to be a TRUE Muslim by an orthodox Sunni Muslim... I don't think so....

Plus Muslims have killed each other quite frequently over religious or other reasons.....

Another example: the ancient Loony Sunni vs. SHIiTe feud....

C. Not one, but two faked and bloodless " beheadings".
Perhaps you MAY be correct here....

Given James Foley's political blather on Twitter :roll: before he allegedly died, I can quite imagine him converting to Islam and being groomed for some other ISIS operation, perhaps as a Caliphate Commando himself.... Announcing during an attack that he had converted to Islam.... :evil:

I am NOT saying that this happened..... Just that I can quite imagine it....

D. Muslims do not allow interest,
Muslims have approved ways to get around this alleged prohibition. For example: a Muslim needs the equivalent of a mortgage for a house he wants to buy. Goes to an Islamic/Islamic Compliant Bank. Banker buy the house at the sellers price. The Banker then sells the house to the Muslim for a higher price which includes what would have been the interest charged to a non-Muslim and allow the Muslim buyer to make monthly payments until the debt is paid. :idea:


Otherwise, ISIS/IS/The Caliphate seems to misbehaving as traditional/Jihadi Muslims often/almost always have when not restrained by fear of superior power going back to the time of vile Mohammed & his evil Companions... :evil:
Anytime someone can point to a single source for a SNAFU this immense, they are lying.
IMHO not at all..... Single mistakes can be quite disastrous....

But you are correct that there is not a single source for the SNAFU known as ISIS....


I'll start with just two....

obama the Lazy LYING Son of a Bitch Eating Globalist POS POTUS & GOLFTUS who was determined to get all the way out of Iraq so he could brag about it never mind the danger....

And his bigoted wacky Iraqi counterpart, that Iranian dominated POS SHIiTe ;) :twisted: Full of Malarkey Maliki who as soon as he took power went after his Sunni second in line and stopped paying the salaries of Sunni soldiers in the Iraqi army who then deserted with some going to ISIS/the Caliphate...

Lot's of other sources going back to Bad Old Mohammed himself... :idea:
And ISIS is a lie.
As part of Islam, IMO ISIS is based on delusions & lies....

But nevertheless, those who get too close to it find it to be murderously real... :idea:
Last edited by monster_gardener on Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
User avatar
Doc
Posts: 12562
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:10 pm

Re: The Obama Caliphate

Post by Doc »

YMix wrote:
Doc wrote:Enough to know that there is a 40% unemployment rate among young French Muslims Which means more time on the Internet and sitting in front of sat TV. Instead of building a life making them vested French citizens.
And that's the fault of interest groups?
There is a large difference between native French and even second and third generation Immigrant Muslim French. That is hardly a coincidence. In France where you are from or even where your father's father was from matters a lot. The thing is the Muslim French are not assimilated enough. They don't have a vested interest in being French first because of it. At one point French Police had higher causality rates fighting Muslims in the streets of Paris then US troops had in Iraq. Not that they were killed in higher number but that they were injured in higher numbers.

It is "us vs them" in a quite violent way. Throw in lots of spare time on their hands and that spells real trouble. In the American revolution it only took 30% of the population to overthrow the British. While another 30% supported the status quo.The rest were neutral.

I imagine this has come about because the french insisted too much on assimilation without an end point. That the Muslims of France look at it as if they will never be French enough to be considered real French.They may well have spoken nice words about the Muslims but not followed through with deeds. So the Muslims want extreme change. So now it may well be too late for France. So yes it is the fault of interest groups.

Did you know that it is either illegal or highly discourage in France to take ethnic data? At least for the government to do that? They may or may not have done that to deny proof of lack of acceptance of immigrants. But now they are blind to what appears to me to be wide spread discrimination against Muslims and are therefore clueless on what to do to reverse the trend. They did not even seem to have a clue there was a problem until the Muslim riots.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
User avatar
YMix
Posts: 4631
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:53 am
Location: Department of Congruity - Report any outliers here

Re: The Obama Caliphate

Post by YMix »

Doc wrote:There is a large difference between native French and even second and third generation Immigrant Muslim French. That is hardly a coincidence. In France where you are from or even where your father's father was from matters a lot.
But you generalized this situation to include all European countries.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
User avatar
Doc
Posts: 12562
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:10 pm

Re: The Obama Caliphate

Post by Doc »

YMix wrote:
Doc wrote:There is a large difference between native French and even second and third generation Immigrant Muslim French. That is hardly a coincidence. In France where you are from or even where your father's father was from matters a lot.
But you generalized this situation to include all European countries.

Tell me, how do the Germans treat Turkish immigrants? How about the Swiss? How do they treat immigrants from the ME?

On the other hand how do the Dutch treat Muslim immigrants? Seems like Multicuturalism in, at least many places in Europe, is a fiction to be held to at any cost.

It does not work if there is no assimilation.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
noddy
Posts: 11318
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:09 pm

Re: The Obama Caliphate

Post by noddy »

tolerant multiracial monoculture != multiculture.
ultracrepidarian
User avatar
YMix
Posts: 4631
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:53 am
Location: Department of Congruity - Report any outliers here

Re: The Obama Caliphate

Post by YMix »

Doc wrote:It does not work if there is no assimilation.
There is little assimilation of poor Muslims.

EDIT: Come to think of it, there's little assimilation of poor people in general. When the Daily Mail talks about the Romanian problem in England, it's not Romanian businessmen they complain about. If you're working class and above, your language and customs are just one more problem to be overcome at work or during business negotiations. If you're poor... god help you.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
noddy
Posts: 11318
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:09 pm

Re: The Obama Caliphate

Post by noddy »

YMix wrote:
Doc wrote:It does not work if there is no assimilation.
There is little assimilation of poor Muslims.

EDIT: Come to think of it, there's little assimilation of poor people in general. When the Daily Mail talks about the Romanian problem in England, it's not Romanian businessmen they complain about. If you're working class and above, your language and customs are just one more problem to be overcome at work or during business negotiations. If you're poor... god help you.
most people come with a pre-existing group of friends and family so they will only extend that group if its advantageous to them, a poor person would have to be extra charismatic/ interesting to break through that barrier.

doubly so with rural conservatives, any laughing you see at white rednecks applies to the foreign versions aswell.
ultracrepidarian
User avatar
Doc
Posts: 12562
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:10 pm

Re: The Obama Caliphate

Post by Doc »

YMix wrote:
Doc wrote:It does not work if there is no assimilation.
There is little assimilation of poor Muslims.

EDIT: Come to think of it, there's little assimilation of poor people in general. When the Daily Mail talks about the Romanian problem in England, it's not Romanian businessmen they complain about. If you're working class and above, your language and customs are just one more problem to be overcome at work or during business negotiations. If you're poor... god help you.
Poor yes that is true. I knew a pair of Mexican Brother. They came with a group of us to a science museum. One of the play thing display was a magnet with Iron filings inside a acrylic box. Both were amazed like it was magic. They had never seen anything like it They grew up poor and drop out of school at a young age. The difference between them was that one really showed his amazement and the other hide it fairly well. Guess which one stayed in the US and which one went back to Mexico?

As for Arab Muslims. They and Pakistani Muslims are the only immigrant groups in the US that consistently want to go back to where they are from. They quite literally think all the women here are whores except for some of those that are married to one. Once they are here for a while generally that changes. I mean for a long number of years. I think it is that their kids become Americans and then they adapt to America better. And as Noddy wrote they do tend to be socially much more conservative. But that is not the only reason for the difficulties.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
User avatar
kmich
Posts: 1087
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:46 am

Re: The Obama Caliphate

Post by kmich »

I grew up in an immigrant family that was constantly under suspicion by various authorities because of my parents' status as Russian refugees and particularly my father’s service in the Red Army. Suspicion was a serious barrier to my father’s employment as a plumber and we were always being visited by FBI and assorted INS doofuses. Paycheck to paycheck. I was constantly taunted and bullied at school for being a Russian “commie” until my father taught me how to box like he did in the army.

So, the endless talk about the “problem” with the “Muslims” really gets on my nerves. If they are legally admitted into your country, obey your laws, and can support themselves, they are not a “problem,” unless you want to make them one with your ignorant stereotypes. Immigrants, regardless of religion or nation of origin, come to your country because the opportunities you offer. So you are best off making sure your immigrant populations have a stake in the success of your society by using and rewarding their contributions regardless of their station in life. If you don’t, they could give up and go off the rails to find a stake in something else like various destructive radical groups, particularly if they are high spirited and inadequately socialized young men. But that is not just the problem of a particular immigrant community, it is your society’s failure at inclusion.
User avatar
Doc
Posts: 12562
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:10 pm

Re: The Obama Caliphate

Post by Doc »

kmich wrote:I grew up in an immigrant family that was constantly under suspicion by various authorities because of my parents' status as Russian refugees and particularly my father’s service in the Red Army. Suspicion was a serious barrier to my father’s employment as a plumber and we were always being visited by FBI and assorted INS doofuses. Paycheck to paycheck. I was constantly taunted and bullied at school for being a Russian “commie” until my father taught me how to box like he did in the army.

So, the endless talk about the “problem” with the “Muslims” really gets on my nerves. If they are legally admitted into your country, obey your laws, and can support themselves, they are not a “problem,” unless you want to make them one with your ignorant stereotypes. Immigrants, regardless of religion or nation of origin, come to your country because the opportunities you offer. So you are best off making sure your immigrant populations have a stake in the success of your society by using and rewarding their contributions regardless of their station in life. If you don’t, they could give up and go off the rails to find a stake in something else like various destructive radical groups, particularly if they are high spirited and inadequately socialized young men. But that is not just the problem of a particular immigrant community, it is your society’s failure at inclusion.
How "PC" of you...First my "Stero Types" Are not out of ignorance they are first hand. SECONDLY THEY tell me HAVE BEEN telling me for years well BEFORE 911 that there is a problem. They complain about the books being sold at the mosques. The ones married to Americans complain that they are always having to defend American women against the others. Your experience is not the same thing.

As for having a stake ===> Did you not read what I have been writing over and over again?

Further more if you go back and read what I said I clearly stated that as Muslim Immigrants live in the US, over time they become more assimilated

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_t ... ntegration
Integration

According to a 2004 telephone survey of a sample of 1846 Muslims conducted by the polling organization Zogby, the respondents were more educated and affluent than the national average, with 59% of them holding at least an undergraduate college degree.[116] Citing the Zogby survey, a 2005 Wall Street Journal editorial by Bret Stephens and Joseph Rago expressed the tendency of American Muslims to report employment in professional fields, with one in three having an income over $75,000 a year.[117] The editorial also characterized American Muslims as "role models both as Americans and as Muslims".

Unlike many Muslims in Europe, American Muslims overall do not tend to feel marginalized or isolated from political participation and have often adopted a politically proactive stance. Several organizations were formed by the American Muslim community to serve as 'critical consultants' on U.S. policy regarding Iraq and Afghanistan. Other groups have worked with law enforcement agencies to point out Muslims within the United States that they suspect of fostering 'intolerant attitudes'. Still others have worked to invite interfaith dialogue and improved relations between Muslim and non-Muslim Americans.[118]

Growing Muslim populations have caused public agencies to adapt to their religious practices. Airports such as the Indianapolis International Airport, Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport[119][not in citation given], Kansas City International Airport have installed foot-baths to allow Muslims, particularly taxicab drivers who service the airports, to perform their religious ablutions in a safe and sanitary manner.[120] and Denver International Airport included a mosque as part of its Interfaith Chapel when opened in 1996[121] although such developments have not been without criticism.[122]

As of May 30, 2005, over 15,000 Muslims were serving in the United States Armed Forces.[123]

A Pew report released in 2009 noted that nearly six-in-ten American adults see Muslims as being subject to discrimination, more than Mormons, Atheists, or Jews.[124] While Muslims comprise less than one percent of the American population, they accounted for approximately one quarter of the religious discrimination claims filed with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission during 2009.[125] According to FBI statistics, hate crimes against Muslims are rare, at 6.0 per 100,000, compared to blacks at 6.7, homosexuals and bisexuals at 11.5, and Jews at 14.8.[126][127]
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/20 ... pe-ghettos
In the U.S., Immigrants Find Acceptance; in Europe, Ghettos
Ed Husain

Ed Husain is a senior fellow for Middle Eastern studies at the Council on Foreign Relations. He is on Twitter.

Updated June 5, 2013, 5:33 PM

I am a product of immigration and multiculturalism. I was born and raised in England to Indian parents. I have lived and worked in Syria and Saudi Arabia, and now New York is my home. I am grateful to Europe for all that it has given me, but it continues to fail to provide a “sense of belonging” to its immigrants and their children.

In the United States, immigrants are accepted; in most of Europe, they are just tolerated. Unlike France and Germany, Britain has been experimenting with multiculturalism for three decades now. The British are ahead of mainland Europe, having fostered greater diversity in business, media and politics. But we’ve also helped create monocultural ghettos in northern cities where entire communities can survive without speaking English or making any contact with “white Britain.” Physically they are in Britain, mentally in Pakistan. Germany and Denmark refer to second- and third-generation “immigrants” as “guest workers” in a “host country”; they are seen as Turks, not Germans, despite birth and upbringing in Deutschland.

In Europe, millions of Muslims and people of color do not feel 'European.'


When multiculturalism creates communal segregation and sectarianism and sows the seeds for future conflicts, we have a civic duty to take our heads out of the sand. In Europe, millions of Muslims and people of color do not feel “European.” They are mostly perceived as and therefore behave as “outsiders.” Granted, some feel British or French, but I am not sure whether “host countries” and their upper classes see them that way. (Class structure, of course, is another barrier to integration in Europe.) At lower rungs of society, the rise of right-wing parties confirms my suspicions of Europe.

Europe itself lacks an identity. How can it welcome newcomers? In contrast, America is confident in itself: multiculturalism here is different, and broadly successful. The Statue of Liberty (ironic: a French gift) continues to call toward constitutional guarantees of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. In President Obama’s America, minorities, women and youth are presidential kingmakers. Multiculturalism thrives when there is a framework of national identity underpinning it. Europe lacks that; America cherishes it every day as children from all backgrounds swear allegiance to the Stars and Stripes.

Finally, the ultimate test of when members of an immigrant community stop being “outsiders” is when its sons and daughters offer the ultimate sacrifice by joining a nation’s armed forces. American Muslims and members of other minority communities serve in the U.S. military and in law enforcement, and they do so with communal pride and support from elders. I have met American Muslims who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan. Some have been laid to rest as heroes at Arlington cemetery. In Europe, such dedication remains taboo and is still seen as betrayal by fellow Muslims who see a false choice between Islam and the West. To fight for a western country is to oppose Islam, they argue. American Muslims defy that false narrative.

Multiculturalism in Europe needs desperate mending, not ending. And the United States offers instructive insights on how Europe can perhaps heal.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
Post Reply