Zack Morris wrote:As the Colonel pointed out, there are no solutions here. None. You seem to be hinting that we are constrained by ethical principles from engaging in levels of arbitrary cruelty that would bring about defeat but that is highly dubious given the history of the region. There are no examples of civilization being successfully imposed on a people without continuous occupation and near total annihilation of their numbers, which is counter to the objective that Bush/Neocons like yourself set forth during the 2003 invasion: to bring about democracy and stable governance and leave, letting democracy spread organically while the oil flow paid for the invasion.
Lest you bring up Germany or Japan during WWII, consider that Japan already voluntarily mimicked Western governance structures long before the war (indeed, their campaign of aggression was modeled on European imperialism and ideas of racial and cultural superiority), necessitating much smaller post-war changes that were capable of being sustained internally, without direct US occupation. Germany, of course, had far more in common with the Allies to begin with, the war being almost an intracultural power struggle against a particular regime.
The Arabs have demonstrated time and time again that they are not yet capable of adopting or even willing to adopt Western political culture and are capable of enduring decades-long oppression and jihad. People like Assad and Hussein understand/understood this very well. Israel does, too. All three of these maintained internal order through endless occupation and never-ending, limitless reprisals. Unlike them, we have no reason to remain there for eternity, and genocide is not an option.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Zack,
there are no solutions here. None.
False.........
There are solutions.......
Problem is that most of them are NOT Good.....
You seem to be hinting that we are constrained by ethical principles from engaging in levels of arbitrary cruelty that would bring about defeat.....
Yes.
For the moment.....
but that is highly dubious given the history of the region.
It might be a good idea to read Joshua & Judges in the Tanakh/Old Testament......
There are no examples of civilization being successfully imposed on a people without continuous occupation and near total annihilation of their numbers,
Not so much.....
To a large degree, the Japanese, perhaps beginning Prince Shotoku, imposed Chinese/Confucian culture on themselves down to Chinese characters which many say do not work that well for Japanese resulting in Japan having 3 or 4 'alphabets': Kanji (modified meaning Chinese characters), Katakana (Japanese syllabary ), Hiragana (Japanese syllabary ), and perhaps Romanji (Japanese rendered into using Roman/Western letters).....
And there is Russian history with Russian Monarchs who sometimes were to a large degree or totally foreign (Catherine the Great) and imposed foreign customs on the Russians....
And of course what you mentioned which is still imposition of civilization or something like it
that Bush/Hitlerites like yourself
I am neither. BTW Thank You VERY MUCH for the Godwin's Law forfeit!
The Arabs have demonstrated time and time again that they are not yet capable of adopting or even willing to adopt Western political culture
Maybe.....
Might depend on how Arab/Muslim is defined..... Are the Turks, Arabs, or at least quasi Arabs given that the Muslim Meme tends to inflict much of 7th Century Arabian Culture
on those who adopt Islam..
If so, someone like Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, might be able of imposing a Constitutional Republic with a Bill of Rights on Arabs/quasi Arab Muslims..... Would have been interesting
to see what would have have happened if Ataturk had not drank so much
and lived long enough to achieve his goal of effectively sending religion in Turkey on a Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea
Unlike them, we have no reason to remain there for eternity,
I hope you are correct.
Don't want to do that.....
Would like to see things like nuclear power with which one can make oil from virtually anything organic make Middle Eastern oil superfluous......
But the problem is larger than that.......
Not just US & Westerners there.........
Also them, the traditional/Jihadi Muslims here....
From the Invasion of Spain to the Gates of Vienna to the Barbary Pirates to 911 & the Tsarnev Brothers, the attitude of the traditional/Jihadi Muslims is well summarized below:
When they enquired "concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury", the ambassador replied:
It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise.
and genocide is not an option.
Perhaps not yet for US......
But I have read of Traditional/Jihadi Muslims describing Israel as a One Nuke Nation that only one atomic bomb could destroy.....
And I have read that Israel has Salted Nukes/Cobalt Bombs or similar ready for retaliation.....
Which could effectively make much/all of the Northern Hemisphere or more uninhabitable.....
They are channeling Samson who destroyed more at his death than during his life....
Determined to make genocide work both ways.....
And perhaps more as collateral damage....
The Bell May Toll for US too
Good reasons to invest in both the Space Program & Southern Hemisphere Real Estate.....
Though very good fallout shelters may be an option....