Netanyahu critics adopt Netanyahu tactics against ISIS

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Netanyahu critics adopt Netanyahu tactics against ISIS

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:08 am

Moderators, this involves obama, europeans, ISIS and Israel so I put it here but it may belong somewhere else.

Just a few weeks ago, and you can read people from this forum on the topic as well, the left universally condemned Israel for indiscrimant, non proportional bombing against Hamas.

Now the left with obama is using the Likud Netanyahu tactic themselves against ISIS. More children will surely be killed and the proportion of US death to Arab death will be orders of magnitude higher than the Israel War, so perhaps the leftists, particularly the ones who have commented on this forum can explain why they like indiscriminate disproportional killing for themselves but no Israel. I look forward to your comments.

But I also would like to hear from those of you who still seem to think of yourselves as holding the intellectual high ground what you like about obama's strategy or if you don't like it why you aren't protesting like the Israeli action, and perhaps what you would do in this situation.

I am going to weigh in on the topic but will give you all the chance first.

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/ISIS-H ... id/594290/

ISIS is America's Hamas and it is hypocritical to condone the United States' actions to defeat the Islamic State (ISIS) while criticizing Israel for doing the same with Hamas, Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz said Friday on Newsmax TV's "America's Forum."

"ISIS is an extremist Islamist organization that doesn't play by the rules, has prepared to behead Americans, smuggle Americans and Europeans into America with evil intentions on their mind," Dershowitz said. "The only difference is, ISIS is much further away from the United States than Hamas is from Israel, but they use the same tactics."

Soon, he predicted, ISIS will adopt Hamas' strategy of using innocent civilians as shields.

"They have captured a lot of hostages, innocent people, and they are going to start embedding their soldiers, their fighters, among these hostages," said Dershowitz. "Instead of beheading Americans, they are going to take Americans, hold them in front of their soldiers and say you can't get at us unless you're prepared to kill innocent civilians, which is exactly what Hamas has been doing for the last 10 years."
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Re: Netanyahu critics adopt Netanyahu tactics against ISIS

Postby Zack Morris » Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:15 am

How is a ruthless campaign against a pitifully weak militia holed up in an urban ghetto encircled for decades at all comparable to rolling back an orders-of-magnitude more lethal, expansionist terror group that has the support of no one?
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Re: Netanyahu critics adopt Netanyahu tactics against ISIS

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:24 am

Dead children are dead children Zack Morris. Unless you are trying at some racial angle. And the number of dead Iraqis to dead Americans, well...

Perhaps you can tell me why disproportionate indiscriminate killing is ok for you and not for Israel.

And time to apologize for your past lies and false charges.
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Re: Netanyahu critics adopt Netanyahu tactics against ISIS

Postby Zack Morris » Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:55 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:Dead children are dead children Zack Morris. Unless you are trying at some racial angle. And the number of dead Iraqis to dead Americans, well...

Perhaps you can tell me why disproportionate indiscriminate killing is ok for you and not for Israel.

And time to apologize for your past lies and false charges.


Sometimes sacrifices are necessary and sometimes they are not. A muted response to ISIS is already resulting in genocide and the collapse of two nation states. A muted response to Hamas would have done what, exactly?

Israelis have revealed themselves to be unwilling to make peace. As the vastly more powerful entity in this situation, Israel can reasonably be expected to show some restraint, patience, and willingness to work toward a two-state solution, as the West Bank Palestinians have. Instead, this largely unprovoked action and yet another land grab on behalf of Jewish zealots demonstrate that Israel is not serious about peace.
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Re: Netanyahu critics adopt Netanyahu tactics against ISIS

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:26 am

Zack Morris wrote:Sometimes sacrifices are necessary and sometimes they are not.

This should be good. To see where and how the goal posts move around. When the brown children get to be sacrificed and by whom.

A muted response to ISIS is already resulting in genocide and the collapse of two nation states. A muted response to Hamas would have done what, exactly?

Encouraged Hamas to shoot more rockets and escalate further, risking a war that widens into one that threatens the existence of Israel.

Israelis have revealed themselves to be unwilling to make peace.

Of course not. There is a peace right now. Israel earned that peace by beating Hamas fair and square.

As the vastly more powerful entity in this situation, the US can reasonably be expected to show some restraint, patience, and willingness to work towards an accommodation with ISIS, as we have with the Taliban and other parts of Al Qaeda under obama.

Instead, this largely unprovoked action and yet another instance of meddling where the US does not belong which will only create more terror and blowback by Democrat Neocons demonstrates that obama and Democrats are not serious about peace or most of the horse$#!t they spewed when GWB was President.

Fixed. Just as a tip Zack Morris, since you are till apparently way deep in the bunker, Americans are watching what you are saying and doing and running in droves to the Republican Party in all polls, particularly on this issue. Americans prefer the GOP on the issue of terror and national security in record numbers now. So you may want to examine all of your cognitive dissonance and try to resolve it. I know you won't, so it doesn't really matter but I did warn you.

BTW, Israel is surrounded by a billion Muslims/Arabs who nominally all support Palestine, often with rockets and armaments, who almost all want Israel and the Jews erased from where they are. A 2 state solution cannot be worked toward because you can't find any Arabs who want it, not in any significance.

ISIS OTOH has no WMDs, no imminent threat to America nor has crossed any of the thresholds Democrats said had to be passed when GWB went to war in Iraq. You are more likely to killed by falling in the bathtub than by ISIS.

So thanks for the softballs. Anyone else want to try?
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Re: Netanyahu critics adopt Netanyahu tactics against ISIS

Postby Zack Morris » Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:10 pm

Mr. Perfect wrote:This should be good. To see where and how the goal posts move around. When the brown children get to be sacrificed and by whom.


A sensible way to calibrate the goal posts is to look for causes that unite disparate groups like Sunni, Shia, and the Kurds in pursuit of some notion of a greater good. It's night and day different than what happens between Israel and Gaza.

Encouraged Hamas to shoot more rockets and escalate further, risking a war that widens into one that threatens the existence of Israel.


Of course that is utter nonsense. There had been no major military action in years and countless sporadic tit-for-tat exchanges (sometimes provoked by the Israelis) without any impact on the overall picture. The 2014 war in Gaza was prompted by an abduction in the West Bank that was never linked to Hamas. Israel decided to retaliate militarily against an entire population for what should have been handled as a civilian police matter. Israel was also upset about a reconciliation between Hamas and Fatah (something Israel indirectly facilitated, of course). This does not meet the standard of a "just war". It was never about rockets. It's about the fantasy that suffering will breed a people more willing to accept an unfair deal rather than generations of resentful and angry people.

As the vastly more powerful entity in this situation, the US can reasonably be expected to show some restraint, patience, and willingness to work towards an accommodation with ISIS, as we have with the Taliban and other parts of Al Qaeda under obama.



These situations are totally incomparable.

BTW, Israel is surrounded by a billion Muslims/Arabs who nominally all support Palestine, often with rockets and armaments, who almost all want Israel and the Jews erased from where they are. A 2 state solution cannot be worked toward because you can't find any Arabs who want it, not in any significance.


More nonsense. Hamas in Gaza has lost the support of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and others. There is plenty of willingness to move the peace process forward but Israel is the primary obstacle at this point. The West Bank has conducted itself with civility for years now, something Israeli shills like yourself have always said would need to happen first in order for a peaceful settlement to the conflict, but Israel has responded only with provocations and abuse. They continue to ethnically cleanse remaining Palestinian territories with illegal land grabs and have an official policy of extrajudicial demolition of Palestinian homes in retaliation for crimes allegedly committed by relatives.

Israel is deceiving the Palestinians and the world intentionally. It has no desire to to limit its expansion and accommodate a two state solution.

ISIS OTOH has no WMDs, no imminent threat to America nor has crossed any of the thresholds Democrats said had to be passed when GWB went to war in Iraq. You are more likely to killed by falling in the bathtub than by ISIS.
[/quote]

Not only is ISIS guilty of crimes against humanity, it poses an enormous threat to regional stability and has orders-of-magnitude better financing than any terror group has ever had. We've been bombing Yemen for years to keep its famous bomb designers in check, so some sort of response (especially one involving Arab and Kurdish ground troops) is warranted. Even if ISIS does not end up being a direct terror risk to the US and Europe (and that's unlikely given that it has explicitly stated it will strike Western interests), the long-term effects of the political instability they are certain to cause in the region are worth addressing. How best to address them has not been resolved yet. Nobody has put forth a credible plan that takes into account the complicated realities of the region.
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Re: Netanyahu critics adopt Netanyahu tactics against ISIS

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:27 pm

Zack Morris wrote:A sensible way to calibrate the goal posts is to look for causes that unite disparate groups like Sunni, Shia, and the Kurds in pursuit of some notion of a greater good.

After nearly 6 years in office why do you think obama or any other Democrat have never lifted a finger in this direction.

It's night and day different than what happens between Israel and Gaza.

Not really, there are two sides shooting at each other. It's not that complicated.

Of course that is utter nonsense. There had been no major military action in years

There was no major military action in years in Europe right up to WWI.

and countless sporadic tit-for-tat exchanges (sometimes provoked by the Israelis) without any impact on the overall picture. The 2014 war in Gaza was prompted by an abduction in the West Bank that was never linked to Hamas. Israel decided to retaliate militarily against an entire population for what should have been handled as a civilian police matter. Israel was also upset about a reconciliation between Hamas and Fatah (something Israel indirectly facilitated, of course). This does not meet the standard of a "just war". It was never about rockets. It's about the fantasy that suffering will breed a people more willing to accept an unfair deal rather than generations of resentful and angry people.

Israel has a history of warfare with many of it's neighbors, most of whom do not even recognize it's right to exist and of course the nation of Iran continually calls for the destruction of their country while pursuing nuclear weapons and providing material support to Hamas (one of many nations who do that). I think based on your lack of comprehending of this basic calculus of the region jews everywhere will agree that you have no ability to judge what is best for Israel in any way shape or form, so thanks for the ignorance display again.

These situations are totally incomparable.

True, Israel is under existential threat from their neighbors while we are under almost no threat from ISIS. So the comparison is not very good I admit. Israel has much greater cause to bomb brown children than you do. By orders of magnitude.

More nonsense. Hamas in Gaza has lost the support of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and others.

None of those people support a 2 state solution. You cannot find Arabs willing to sign for a 2 state solution.

There is plenty of willingness to move the peace process forward but Israel is the primary obstacle at this point.

Citation needed. Earlier you defined peace as a 2 state solution, there are no Arab coalitions seeking or willing to accept a 2 state solution.

The West Bank has conducted itself with civility for years now, something Israeli shills like yourself have always said would need to happen first in order for a peaceful settlement to the conflict, but Israel has responded only with provocations and abuse.

There is no indication that Arabs will support a 2 state solution.

They continue to ethnically cleanse remaining Palestinian territories with illegal land grabs and have an official policy of extrajudicial demolition of Palestinian homes in retaliation for crimes allegedly committed by relatives.

If you get to occupy AFG then you have to let Israel occupy the Palestinians.

Israel is deceiving the Palestinians and the world intentionally.

So are you. So is obama. So are the Arabs.

It has no desire to to limit its expansion and accommodate a two state solution.

Neither do the Arabs.

Not only is Saddam Hussein guilty of crimes against humanity, he poses an enormous threat to regional stability and has orders-of-magnitude better financing than any terror group has ever had.

Fixed. Neocons in action.

Look, if you get to bomb brown people you have to let other people bomb brown people.

We've been bombing Yemen for years to keep its famous bomb designers in check, so some sort of response (especially one involving Arab and Kurdish ground troops) is warranted. Even if ISIS does not end up being a direct terror risk to the US and Europe (and that's unlikely given that it has explicitly stated it will strike Western interests), the long-term effects of the political instability they are certain to cause in the region are worth addressing. How best to address them has not been resolved yet. Nobody has put forth a credible plan that takes into account the complicated realities of the region.

Spoken like Cheney/Wolfowitz/Perle/Scowcroft. How ironic when people become what they hate.
Last edited by Mr. Perfect on Sun Sep 14, 2014 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Netanyahu critics adopt Netanyahu tactics against ISIS

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:29 pm

Zack Morris, when Bush was President, Democrats to a man and woman said meddling in the ME was the root cause of terror.

Why do you want to create more terror against the United States?
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Re: Netanyahu critics adopt Netanyahu tactics against ISIS

Postby Doc » Sun Sep 14, 2014 12:15 am

Zack Morris wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:This should be good. To see where and how the goal posts move around. When the brown children get to be sacrificed and by whom.


A sensible way to calibrate the goal posts is to look for causes that unite disparate groups like Sunni, Shia, and the Kurds in pursuit of some notion of a greater good. It's night and day different than what happens between Israel and Gaza.



Really?? Back in the 1990's a summer camp was set up in New England for Palestinian and Israeli youth to spent time away from the conflict together so they could better understand one another. It was a big success... Maybe too successful as Massar Arafat canceled it as incompatible with Palestinian goals. .
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Re: Netanyahu critics adopt Netanyahu tactics against ISIS

Postby Zack Morris » Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:40 am

Doc wrote:
Zack Morris wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:This should be good. To see where and how the goal posts move around. When the brown children get to be sacrificed and by whom.


A sensible way to calibrate the goal posts is to look for causes that unite disparate groups like Sunni, Shia, and the Kurds in pursuit of some notion of a greater good. It's night and day different than what happens between Israel and Gaza.



Really?? Back in the 1990's a summer camp was set up in New England for Palestinian and Israeli youth to spent time away from the conflict together so they could better understand one another. It was a big success... Maybe too successful as Massar Arafat canceled it as incompatible with Palestinian goals. .


That sounds made up. There are numerous programs like this and they've been around forever.
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Re: Netanyahu critics adopt Netanyahu tactics against ISIS

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:59 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:Zack Morris, when Bush was President, Democrats to a man and woman said meddling in the ME was the root cause of terror.

Why do you want to create more terror against the United States?
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Re: Netanyahu critics adopt Netanyahu tactics against ISIS

Postby Zack Morris » Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:09 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:
Zack Morris wrote:A sensible way to calibrate the goal posts is to look for causes that unite disparate groups like Sunni, Shia, and the Kurds in pursuit of some notion of a greater good.

After nearly 6 years in office why do you think obama or any other Democrat have never lifted a finger in this direction.


We had to give Bush's "democracy" a chance first.

It's night and day different than what happens between Israel and Gaza.

Not really, there are two sides shooting at each other. It's not that complicated.


But there are more than two sides in Iraq/Syria. Why do you know so little?

Of course that is utter nonsense. There had been no major military action in years

There was no major military action in years in Europe right up to WWI.


Non sequitur.

Israel has a history of warfare with many of it's neighbors,


Yeah, when it was the new kid on the block. Not anymore. This isn't the 1960's. Pan-Arabism is dead. The US had a history of warfare with Britain, and then suddenly it didn't anymore. Likewise, virtually any European nature can cite a history of warfare with many of its neighbors. It's irrelevant because nobody is mobilizing to fight a war with Israel.

most of whom do not even recognize it's right to exist and of course the nation of Iran continually calls for the destruction of their country while pursuing nuclear weapons and providing material support to Hamas (one of many nations who do that).


Hamas and Hezbollah are not existential threats to Israel. The idea that Iran is actually intent on destroying Israel (or ever going to war with it) is as credible as suggesting the neighborhood kids who egg your house are plotting to burn it down.

Americans and their comic book reality. So naive. So childish.

I think based on your lack of comprehending of this basic calculus of the region jews everywhere will agree that you have no ability to judge what is best for Israel in any way shape or form, so thanks for the ignorance display again.


Just a hypothetical: why should we trouble ourselves with Israel? Why align with the Jews over the Arabs? What is your basis for picking one side over the other?

True, Israel is under existential threat from their neighbors while we are under almost no threat from ISIS. So the comparison is not very good I admit. Israel has much greater cause to bomb brown children than you do. By orders of magnitude.


Israel is not under any existential threat. It's possible to imagine a scenario that they could end up facing an existential threat if ISIS achieved what it claims it wants to: an Islamic State stretching from the Levant to Saudi Arabia. But ISIS does not factor into the calculus of Palestine.

None of those people support a 2 state solution. You cannot find Arabs willing to sign for a 2 state solution.


They support a peaceful resolution to the conflict. There's no reason to believe they would not be content with a fair, two state solution. They routinely say one thing and do another. Politics and diplomacy. The PA has definitely been amenable to taking steps toward a two step solution. When talks break down, it's often Israel that demands unconditional agreement to all of its unilateral demands without sensitivity for the political realities faced by the Palestinians. That's no way to conduct a negotiation with an honor and revenge-minded culture and the Israelis know it (they aren't that culturally dissimilar after all).

Citation needed. Earlier you defined peace as a 2 state solution, there are no Arab coalitions seeking or willing to accept a 2 state solution.


The PA has agreed to such a thing. The PLO was amenable to the idea decades ago. And the Arab League is willing to accept it, too. It's more convenient for Zionists to keep pretending that Hamas speaks for all Arabs so they can continue their land grabs, reducing the potential scope of such a state.

There is no indication that Arabs will support a 2 state solution.


False. But the very thought has Jews tearing their curls out!

If you get to occupy AFG then you have to let Israel occupy the Palestinians.


We're leaving Afghanistan.

Look, if you get to bomb brown people you have to let other people bomb brown people.


False equivalence.
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Re: Netanyahu critics adopt Netanyahu tactics against ISIS

Postby Zack Morris » Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:16 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:Zack Morris, when Bush was President, Democrats to a man and woman said meddling in the ME was the root cause of terror.

Why do you want to create more terror against the United States?


We have to clean up the mess you've created.

But I haven't stated what my preferred solution is. All I've said is that it is reasonable for the US to become involved militarily to some degree. Alas, I'm skeptical the hastily-prepared intervention being planned now will go as intended. A better solution would require a degree of courage, vision, and political savvy that Americans lack. Both the neo-cons and the liberals are in agreement that Iraq must not be fragmented, with Joe Biden being the curious exception. That's probably as good a sign as any that Iraq should be allowed to split apart. It also means we probably have to accommodate Iran and its regional ambitions.
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Re: Netanyahu critics adopt Netanyahu tactics against ISIS

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:52 am

Zack Morris wrote:We have to clean up the mess you've created.

How does creating more terrorism clean anything up.

But I haven't stated what my preferred solution is. All I've said is that it is reasonable for the US to become involved militarily to some degree. Alas, I'm skeptical the hastily-prepared intervention being planned now will go as intended. A better solution would require a degree of courage, vision, and political savvy that Americans lack. Both the neo-cons and the liberals are in agreement that Iraq must not be fragmented, with Joe Biden being the curious exception. That's probably as good a sign as any that Iraq should be allowed to split apart. It also means we probably have to accommodate Iran and its regional ambitions.

You expressed support earlier in the thread. Perhaps the power of my intellect has persuaded you somewhat. That's good.

We can agree that this will end in yet another obama failure, like almost everything he set out to do. No wonder Republicans score so high now in polls compared to Democrats and obama, record levels. Getting close to ash heap time for liberals.

It won't matter one way or the other if Iraq splits or remains the same.
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Re: Netanyahu critics adopt Netanyahu tactics against ISIS

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:39 am

Zack Morris wrote:We had to give Bush's "democracy" a chance first.

That doesn't explain Democrat inaction. You probably don't know this of course but obama undertook an aggressive Israel/Pali "peace" process early in the 1st term and gave up because it was in obama's words "hard".

But there are more than two sides in Iraq/Syria. Why do you know so little?

Sorry, when speaking of Arabs it goes without saying that more than two sides are involved. Just a figure of speech. Point being people shooting at each other isn't complex, especially in terms of how you win or lose.

Non sequitur.

Completely dead on the money. A lack of hostility now has no bearing on a a lack of hostility in the future. Dead on the money.

Yeah, when it was the new kid on the block. Not anymore. This isn't the 1960's. Pan-Arabism is dead. The US had a history of warfare with Britain, and then suddenly it didn't anymore. Likewise, virtually any European nature can cite a history of warfare with many of its neighbors. It's irrelevant because nobody is mobilizing to fight a war with Israel.

That Arabs have been humiliated over and over by a handful of jews in a very small space, true, but that has no bearing whatsoever on the fact that Arabs and Persians supply Pali terrorist with whatever they want and most do not recognize Israel as a nation, and one nation explicitly calls for the destruction of Israel while it seeks nuclear weapons. Odds are if a successful campaign began against Israel most or all the Muslim nations would join in.

The detente Israel has earned was hard fought and fragile, and any show of weakness or lack of resolve puts that security in jeopardy. If you get to bomb children over the risk of Isis, you have to let the Israelis bomb children according to their risk assessment.

These are basic realities of the region. Your ignorance of them disqualifies you from the conversation. If you get to bomb brown children you have to let other people bomb brown children.

Hamas and Hezbollah are not existential threats to Israel. The idea that Iran is actually intent on destroying Israel (or ever going to war with it) is as credible as suggesting the neighborhood kids who egg your house are plotting to burn it down.

Americans and their comic book reality. So naive. So childish.

The comic book children in this instance are those who think this is about Hamas or Hezbollah. They are merely puppets for other Muslim powers.

The Arabs are infinitely more an existential threat to Israel than Isis is to America. If America gets to kill children over Isis then you have to let the Israelis do it. Children understand this concept. It's basic comic book level morality. You have to let other people do what you get to do. Otherwise you are morally and intellectually a bankrupt hypocrite.

Just a hypothetical: why should we trouble ourselves with Israel? Why align with the Jews over the Arabs? What is your basis for picking one side over the other?

A topic for another time. The topic at hand is why you get to kill brown children over an infinitely smaller threat than the threat Israel faces.

Israel is not under any existential threat. It's possible to imagine a scenario that they could end up facing an existential threat if ISIS achieved what it claims it wants to: an Islamic State stretching from the Levant to Saudi Arabia. But ISIS does not factor into the calculus of Palestine.

You have no qualification to determine existential threats to Israel. What we can be sure of is if you get to kill brown children over theoretical risks you have to let other people kill brown children over theoretical risks.

They support a peaceful resolution to the conflict.

Nobody knows what that means. I've seen polling and statements from Arabs/Muslims that they want jews driven into the sea (slaughtered). I guess when they finish that they can say it is peace afterward. After all the slaughter and mass death.

There is every reason to believe that.

They routinely say one thing and do another. Politics and diplomacy. The PA has definitely been amenable to taking steps toward a two step solution. When talks break down, it's often Israel that demands unconditional agreement to all of its unilateral demands without sensitivity for the political realities faced by the Palestinians. That's no way to conduct a negotiation with an honor and revenge-minded culture and the Israelis know it (they aren't that culturally dissimilar after all).

The PA has agreed to such a thing. The PLO was amenable to the idea decades ago. And the Arab League is willing to accept it, too. It's more convenient for Zionists to keep pretending that Hamas speaks for all Arabs so they can continue their land grabs, reducing the potential scope of such a state.

False. But the very thought has Jews tearing their curls out!

I'll try to do all the above in one deal, but since you are brand new to ME politics, you should be aware that Arab leaders, although almost all do not recognize Israel's right to exist and fund terrorism against Israel, say all kinds of things in English but they all say the same thing in Arabic, which is death to the jews. Some people call this taqiya or jizya, but either way the immovable goalpost is nothing they say in English matters unless they also say it in Arabic. When the Arabs start advocating 2 states in Arabic then we can move forward. I stress move forward, because Israel would still need really strong guarantees for her security. (If you want I can provide you some youtubes of things they say in Arabic, to raise your information level.)

But not until then.

These are fixed and immovable goal posts.

We're leaving Afghanistan.

You occupied it as long as you wanted to. Well beyond Bush timelines. And nobody really knows if and when we are leaving, as obama rarely follows through on anything he says.

If you get to occupy a country as long as you want you have to let other people do it to. Comic book, child level morality.

False equivalence.

Dead on the money. Notice nobody coming to your side.

Israel's enemies are orders of magnitude more capable of damaging Israel than ISIS is of damaging us. If you get to kill brown children you have to let other people do it to, particularly if they face far higher dangers than we do.

ISIS has fired zero rockets into the United States.
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Re: Netanyahu critics adopt Netanyahu tactics against ISIS

Postby Mr. Perfect » Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:24 am

The administration doesn't even consider this a "war" on "terror". It's just killing brown kids for fun I guess.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/ ... d_use.html

REPORTER: Marie, help me with this term, “war on terrorism.” Is that --

MARIE HARF, STATE DEPARTMENT: Well, I don’t think I’ve ever used that term from here.

QUESTION: No, no, I’m just – Said it used it earlier. Thirteen years on, he said this “war on terrorism.” Is that something that’s out of the lexicon now of the U.S. Government’s comments on what’s happening?

MS. HARF: Well, it’s certainly not how I would refer to our efforts.

QUESTION: Okay. The second thing is that surely, this direct U.S. bombing of Syria is really back into – without UN sanction or being involved with this – is back into the doctrine of preemption.

MS. HARF: Do – is there a question?

QUESTION: Yeah, it’s a question.

MS. HARF: Or was that just a statement?

QUESTION: Is that the road that we’re traveling on now?

MS. HARF: Well, I wouldn’t use that term either. When we talk about how you degrade and defeat terrorist organizations, it’s not exactly, I think, how you’re probably using the term, and it’s not one that I’m using. Our goal is to prevent terrorist organizations from being able to attack the United States or our interests, to degrade their capabilities to do so. Obviously, that’s – those are the kind of terms I would use when it comes to this current effort.


Look how the administration falls all over itself not to sound like George Bush while following his strategies but in a worse way. So much unnecessary death to come.
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Re: Netanyahu critics adopt Netanyahu tactics against ISIS

Postby Mr. Perfect » Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:17 am

obama the massive hypocrite.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... ow-used-t/

Obama sought repeal of Bush resolution now used to justify Islamic State strikes

White House employs 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force Resolution to evade Congress

President Obama’s first initiated war against an Islamic terrorist group is authorized, the White House says, by George W. Bush-signed legislation that Mr. Obama has criticized and wanted to repeal since last year.

Since beginning airstrikes last month against the Islamic State, also known by the acronyms ISIS and ISIL, the White House has said it does not need congressional approval to carry out such missions.
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obama's Low Quality Henchmen & Henchwomen.....

Postby monster_gardener » Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:53 pm

Mr. Perfect wrote:The administration doesn't even consider this a "war" on "terror". It's just killing brown kids for fun I guess.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/ ... d_use.html

REPORTER: Marie, help me with this term, “war on terrorism.” Is that --

MARIE HARF, STATE DEPARTMENT: Well, I don’t think I’ve ever used that term from here.

QUESTION: No, no, I’m just – Said it used it earlier. Thirteen years on, he said this “war on terrorism.” Is that something that’s out of the lexicon now of the U.S. Government’s comments on what’s happening?

MS. HARF: Well, it’s certainly not how I would refer to our efforts.

QUESTION: Okay. The second thing is that surely, this direct U.S. bombing of Syria is really back into – without UN sanction or being involved with this – is back into the doctrine of preemption.

MS. HARF: Do – is there a question?

QUESTION: Yeah, it’s a question.

MS. HARF: Or was that just a statement?

QUESTION: Is that the road that we’re traveling on now?

MS. HARF: Well, I wouldn’t use that term either. When we talk about how you degrade and defeat terrorist organizations, it’s not exactly, I think, how you’re probably using the term, and it’s not one that I’m using. Our goal is to prevent terrorist organizations from being able to attack the United States or our interests, to degrade their capabilities to do so. Obviously, that’s – those are the kind of terms I would use when it comes to this current effort.


Look how the administration falls all over itself not to sound like George Bush while following his strategies but in a worse way. So much unnecessary death to come.


Thank You VERY MUCH for your post, Mr. Perfect.

Melanie Harf
Makes me want to Barf....

Really the State Dept. needs another spokes person.....

Or at least get Harf to dye here hair some color other than blonde.....

She seems so stupid that she promotes the unfortunate "Dumb Blonde" stereotype.... :roll:

To be fair, maybe Harf is just an unfortunate forced to blather the bilge coming from the top: Hoof in Mouth Heinz Kerry & obama the POS POTUS....

But still.....

The quality of obama's henchmen and henchwomen seems to be dropping.... For example, Jay the Carny Barker was a more adroit Liar for obama than the current klown serving as Press Secretary....
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Re: Netanyahu critics adopt Netanyahu tactics against ISIS

Postby Mr. Perfect » Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:48 pm

Also, expect obama's baby deaths to be completely unreported in the MSM. Compared to baby deaths involving jews.
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Re: Netanyahu critics adopt Netanyahu tactics against ISIS

Postby Zack Morris » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:54 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:
But there are more than two sides in Iraq/Syria. Why do you know so little?

Sorry, when speaking of Arabs it goes without saying that more than two sides are involved. Just a figure of speech. Point being people shooting at each other isn't complex, especially in terms of how you win or lose.


How do you identify who's doing the shooting? This is a problem that has confounded many a great army brought to its knees by insurgents. This used to happen in the good old days when wars were supposed to be won with overwhelming force on the battlefield. It's even messier today.

Completely dead on the money. A lack of hostility now has no bearing on a a lack of hostility in the future. Dead on the money.


The lack of intent certainly has a bearing on this matter. The Arab states agreed to peace decades ago and in some cases have even aligned with Israel against the Palestinians. Pan-Arabism is dead and the original context of the wars has been lost. The pattern that has emerged now is endless diplomatic wrangling, not a build-up to war.

That Arabs have been humiliated over and over by a handful of jews in a very small space, true, but that has no bearing whatsoever on the fact that Arabs and Persians supply Pali terrorist with whatever they want and most do not recognize Israel as a nation, and one nation explicitly calls for the destruction of Israel while it seeks nuclear weapons. Odds are if a successful campaign began against Israel most or all the Muslim nations would join in.


Arabs in Egypt have been trying to suppress the flow of arms and aid to Gaza because they realize that Hamas is ultimately their enemy, too. That's quite a sea change from the days that Egypt under its Pan-Arabist leader took the lead in waging war on Israel.

The detente Israel has earned was hard fought and fragile, and any show of weakness or lack of resolve puts that security in jeopardy. If you get to bomb children over the risk of Isis, you have to let the Israelis bomb children according to their risk assessment.


Having withstood 30 years and numerous violent internal conflicts, any of which would have been reason enough for Arabs concerned about the fate of Palestinians to take advantage of, it's hardly as fragile as you make it out to be. That's just Israeli propaganda designed that is so transparent that I have to marvel at the gullibility of anyone who believes it.

These are basic realities of the region. Your ignorance of them disqualifies you from the conversation. If you get to bomb brown children you have to let other people bomb brown children.


False. This is an illogical statement. We are not bombing brown children for the sake of bombing brown children, we are pursuing a specific enemy. That he happens to hide among brown children, too, is not why we choose to bomb him.

The comic book children in this instance are those who think this is about Hamas or Hezbollah. They are merely puppets for other Muslim powers.


I think Hamas and Hezbollah are the puppets designed to distract Iranians from their internal problems. But the Iranian people have no appetite for direct confrontation with Israel.

The Arabs are infinitely more an existential threat to Israel than Isis is to America. If America gets to kill children over Isis then you have to let the Israelis do it. Children understand this concept. It's basic comic book level morality. You have to let other people do what you get to do. Otherwise you are morally and intellectually a bankrupt hypocrite.


If this is true, neither stalling the peace process nor bombing Palestinians helps. Making an earnest effort to meet the Palestinians halfway after the Arab nations have agreed to recognize an Israeli state, on the other hand, has almost no downside potential. The worst case scenario is a return to the current situation armed with a clear moral upper hand.

You have no qualification to determine existential threats to Israel. What we can be sure of is if you get to kill brown children over theoretical risks you have to let other people kill brown children over theoretical risks.


Of course we do. It is the duty of civilized nations to speak out and intervene against abuse. Plus, we subsidize their defense, so we have every right and reason to be skeptical of their threat assessments.

Nobody knows what that means. I've seen polling and statements from Arabs/Muslims that they want jews driven into the sea (slaughtered). I guess when they finish that they can say it is peace afterward. After all the slaughter and mass death.


Protocols of the Elders of Arabia.

I'll try to do all the above in one deal, but since you are brand new to ME politics, you should be aware that Arab leaders, although almost all do not recognize Israel's right to exist and fund terrorism against Israel, say all kinds of things in English but they all say the same thing in Arabic, which is death to the jews. Some people call this taqiya or jizya, but either way the immovable goalpost is nothing they say in English matters unless they also say it in Arabic. When the Arabs start advocating 2 states in Arabic then we can move forward. I stress move forward, because Israel would still need really strong guarantees for her security. (If you want I can provide you some youtubes of things they say in Arabic, to raise your information level.)


Who says these things and to whom? You can't believe everything you see on Youtube, especially when supplied by Israeli sources. One could piece together a really interesting view of the Western world and its intentions by misappropriating material from fundamentalists and fringe whackos.

Anyway, the Arabs have long been advocating a 2-state solution in Arabic. In what language do you think Arab League summits are conducted?

Taqiya and jizya are two different things and I think you've only learned about them through conservative radio. It's preposterous that you would think all Arabs -- all Muslims, in fact -- are part of some unified hive-mind, all engaged in a religious conspiracy and always speaking in coded terms in the presence of infidel outsiders. Most Americans do not hold passports and have little experience with foreigners. Conservatives in particular are especially sheltered. They don't realize that in many cultures -- including Arabic -- it is difficult for people to openly disagree or say "no". This is often misinterpreted as duplicitous behavior. East Asians have also been portrayed this way. The Jews also acquired this same reputation throughout all of Europe.
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Re: Netanyahu critics adopt Netanyahu tactics against ISIS

Postby Mr. Perfect » Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:02 am

Zack Morris wrote:How do you identify who's doing the shooting? This is a problem that has confounded many a great army brought to its knees by insurgents. This used to happen in the good old days when wars were supposed to be won with overwhelming force on the battlefield. It's even messier today.

That you have to ask is a big part of the reason why I am the heavy favorite to handle these issues over you by the American people.

The lack of intent certainly has a bearing on this matter. The Arab states agreed to peace decades ago

SUre. That explains all the weapons the Palis are always getting their hands on.

and in some cases have even aligned with Israel against the Palestinians.

Yup. And we were aligned with ISIS at one point, and against them now. We were aligned with Syria then against Syria. Aligned with Qaddafi then against Qaddafi. Aligned with Hussein then against Hussein. Aligned against the Taliban now with the Taliban.

People brand new to the region should not offer their opinions on the region Zack Morris.

Pan-Arabism is dead and the original context of the wars has been lost. The pattern that has emerged now is endless diplomatic wrangling, not a build-up to war.

Launching rockets is war. Anti Zionism hasn't dwindled one iota in the region.

The Arabs got beat. There is small contingent of crazy Palis willing to do stupid stuff, and I say let them, they get 72 virgins, everyone is happy. But we won't pretend that Israel wouldn't be surrounded by Arab armies if they sensed even a whiff of possibility of defeating Israel.

Arabs in Egypt have been trying to suppress the flow of arms and aid to Gaza because they realize that Hamas is ultimately their enemy, too. That's quite a sea change from the days that Egypt under its Pan-Arabist leader took the lead in waging war on Israel.

Haha. That's so funny. Did Azari hack this account. Palis have no shortage of Muslims willing to provide them with any weaponry they wish to obtain.

Odd how those people won't give money to help their lives out though. Odd how that is.

Having withstood 30 years and numerous violent internal conflicts, any of which would have been reason enough for Arabs concerned about the fate of Palestinians to take advantage of, it's hardly as fragile as you make it out to be. That's just Israeli propaganda designed that is so transparent that I have to marvel at the gullibility of anyone who believes it.

I dunno, obama says he's worried about a nuke in NYC. obama shredded the constitution (TSA/NSA) to prevent this threat, a nuke in Tel Aviv is orders of magnitude more plausible and not survivable by Israel.

False. This is an illogical statement. We are not bombing brown children for the sake of bombing brown children, we are pursuing a specific enemy. That he happens to hide among brown children, too, is not why we choose to bomb him.

Word for word what the Israeli government says in defense of their actions.

If you get to bomb brown children you have to let them bomb brown children.

If you use Netanyahu's tactics you have to let Netanyahu use his tactics. If you use Netanyahu's justification for it you must let Netanyahu use the same justification. Child level morality.

I think Hamas and Hezbollah are the puppets designed to distract Iranians from their internal problems. But the Iranian people have no appetite for direct confrontation with Israel.

Either way if you get to bomb brown people you have to let other people do it too.

If this is true, neither stalling the peace process nor bombing Palestinians helps. Making an earnest effort to meet the Palestinians halfway after the Arab nations have agreed to recognize an Israeli state, on the other hand, has almost no downside potential. The worst case scenario is a return to the current situation armed with a clear moral upper hand.

The bottom line is that if you get to bomb brown people you have to let Israel bomb brown children.

Of course we do. It is the duty of civilized nations to speak out and intervene against abuse. Plus, we subsidize their defense, so we have every right and reason to be skeptical of their threat assessments.

Ok. No problem. But if you get to bomb and kill brown children then you have to let Israel do it also.

Protocols of the Elders of Arabia.

Actually you misnamed it. Here is the real deal.



It's very popular among Arabs and Muslims. And I hear more and more Europeans. Even among Muslim heads of state.



Who says these things and to whom? You can't believe everything you see on Youtube, especially when supplied by Israeli sources. One could piece together a really interesting view of the Western world and its intentions by misappropriating material from fundamentalists and fringe whackos.

Anyway, the Arabs have long been advocating a 2-state solution in Arabic.

No they haven't.

In what language do you think Arab League summits are conducted?

The press conference you get is in English what is transmitted through the mosques and their "media" is in Arabic.

Taqiya and jizya are two different things and I think you've only learned about them through conservative radio. It's preposterous that you would think all Arabs -- all Muslims, in fact -- are part of some unified hive-mind, all engaged in a religious conspiracy and always speaking in coded terms in the presence of infidel outsiders. Most Americans do not hold passports and have little experience with foreigners. Conservatives in particular are especially sheltered. They don't realize that in many cultures -- including Arabic -- it is difficult for people to openly disagree or say "no". This is often misinterpreted as duplicitous behavior. East Asians have also been portrayed this way. The Jews also acquired this same reputation throughout all of Europe.

Whatever you say. Odd though that you know less about the region than the uncultured conservative.

The bottom line is, if you get to kill brown children then you have to let other people kill brown children too.
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Re: Netanyahu critics adopt Netanyahu tactics against ISIS

Postby Zack Morris » Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:05 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:
Zack Morris wrote:How do you identify who's doing the shooting? This is a problem that has confounded many a great army brought to its knees by insurgents. This used to happen in the good old days when wars were supposed to be won with overwhelming force on the battlefield. It's even messier today.

That you have to ask is a big part of the reason why I am the heavy favorite to handle these issues over you by the American people.


Nice dodge. But this is the crux of the problem and you've been caught flatfooted. This is still an unsolved problem. It's what kept us in Afghanistan for a decade and a half and will keep us in Iraq for just about as long.

SUre. That explains all the weapons the Palis are always getting their hands on.


What weapons? In the latest action, the rockets were indigenous and hardly very sophisticated.

Pan-Arabism is dead and the original context of the wars has been lost. The pattern that has emerged now is endless diplomatic wrangling, not a build-up to war.

Launching rockets is war. Anti Zionism hasn't dwindled one iota in the region.


The only rockets being launched are from a narrow strip of land where the population has been besieged for decades. Combating Hamas and taking meaningful steps toward a lasting peace with the PLA in the West Bank are not mutually exclusive. And nothing in this picture justifies the extremely antagonistic policy of building new Jewish settlements.

The Arabs got beat. There is small contingent of crazy Palis willing to do stupid stuff, and I say let them, they get 72 virgins, everyone is happy.


Exactly, a small contingent of crazy Palis is no evidence that the peace process cannot move forward.

Haha. That's so funny. Did Azari hack this account. Palis have no shortage of Muslims willing to provide them with any weaponry they wish to obtain.


False. Palestinians would certainly prefer far more than the pathetic arsenal they have, if you can even call it that.

Odd how those people won't give money to help their lives out though. Odd how that is.


False. Arab states are a major source of foreign aid to Palestine. Delivering aid money to Palestinians is, of course, made very difficult by Israel's attempts to block aid and investment.

I dunno, obama says he's worried about a nuke in NYC. obama shredded the constitution (TSA/NSA) to prevent this threat, a nuke in Tel Aviv is orders of magnitude more plausible and not survivable by Israel.


Israel is the only state in the region with nukes.

False. This is an illogical statement. We are not bombing brown children for the sake of bombing brown children, we are pursuing a specific enemy. That he happens to hide among brown children, too, is not why we choose to bomb him.

Word for word what the Israeli government says in defense of their actions.


Their foot dragging and deliberate provocations speak otherwise.

Ok. No problem. But if you get to bomb and kill brown children then you have to let Israel do it also.


Israel needs to do more than simply bomb brown children if they want to regain the moral high ground.

In what language do you think Arab League summits are conducted?

The press conference you get is in English what is transmitted through the mosques and their "media" is in Arabic.


There are an awful lot of mosques in the region. And probably none of them have a direct cable to Arab League governments telling them to foment war with Israel. Cherry picking Zionist propaganda is no more credible here than if I were to use China's widespread anti-Japanese propaganda as evidence that Japan needs to prepare for imminent war with their neighbor.

Whatever you say. Odd though that you know less about the region than the uncultured conservative.


I think the large number of false claims I've caught you making speak for themselves: you're ignorant of the realities of the region. It is you who are living in the bunker, on guard against things that don't really exist in the real world.
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Re: Netanyahu critics adopt Netanyahu tactics against ISIS

Postby Mr. Perfect » Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:26 am

Zack Morris wrote:Nice dodge. But this is the crux of the problem and you've been caught flatfooted. This is still an unsolved problem. It's what kept us in Afghanistan for a decade and a half and will keep us in Iraq for just about as long.

We are there by choice and no other reason. No other reason at all. obama made choices. It was purely elective.

No dodge required.

What weapons? In the latest action, the rockets were indigenous and hardly very sophisticated.

The rockets being launched are from a narrow strip of land where the population has been besieged for decades.

Qaddafi didn't even launch any rockets at us and we killed him. If you get to kill brown people on the thinnest of remote security pretexts you have to let other people do it.

Combating Hamas and taking meaningful steps toward a lasting peace with the PLA in the West Bank are not mutually exclusive. And nothing in this picture justifies the extremely antagonistic policy of building new Jewish settlements.

But we're not talking about that. We're talking about how you have adopted Netanyahu tactics for yourself, while denying Netanyahu the right to use tactics you now use. That's what we're talking about. It's morally bankrupt.

Exactly, a small contingent of crazy Palis is no evidence that the peace process cannot move forward.

I didn't say it did. It's a large contingents of other Arabs and Muslims that is the root problem. The Palis are just puppets their masters don't even consider human. If every anti-Zionist in the world donated $5 you could make every Gazan a millionaire, and of course none of you will do it.

False. Palestinians would certainly prefer far more than the pathetic arsenal they have, if you can even call it that.

WILLING

False. Arab states are a major source of foreign aid to Palestine.

But they don't provide major aid. They provide a trickle. Do you know why.

Delivering aid money to Palestinians is, of course, made very difficult by Israel's attempts to block aid and investment.

No it isn't.

Israel is the only state in the region with nukes.

Pakistan. And where do you think the NYC nuke obama is worried about is going to come from. The "American region"? Ha ha, you crack me up, no wonder America has given up on you. Nukes can only come from your "region". Ha ha ha. Zack Morris.

Their foot dragging and deliberate provocations speak otherwise.

Arabs say the same thing about the United States. If you get to kill brown people Zack Morris then you have to let other people do the same. Zack Morris.

Israel needs to do more than simply bomb brown children if they want to regain the moral high ground.

So would you. Hard to criticize someone for not holding the moral high ground when you don't either. You are morally and intellectually bankrupt on just about every issue.

There are an awful lot of mosques in the region. And probably none of them have a direct cable to Arab League governments telling them to foment war with Israel. Cherry picking Zionist propaganda is no more credible here than if I were to use China's widespread anti-Japanese propaganda as evidence that Japan needs to prepare for imminent war with their neighbor.

As I said, just find me someone promoting a 2 state solution in Arabic. Easy immovable goal posts Zack Morris. Why are you not punting the ball through the uprights.

And if I was Japan I would certainly be taking precautions.
I think the large number of false claims I've caught you making

Name one.

speak for themselves: you're ignorant of the realities of the region. It is you who are living in the bunker, on guard against things that don't really exist in the real world.

You are the one bombing Qaddafi and ISIS Zack Morris, you are the one in the bunker waving at imaginary flies.

And you have a histoyr of lying and making false charges, about me, and so it is far past time for you to apologize for them. They are solidly documented and I can pull them up at any time.

But the bottom line is that if you get to use Netanyahu tactics then you have to let Netanyahy use those tactics. If you get to butcher brown children you have to let other people do it to. Zack Morris.
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