Evolution

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Re: Evolution

Postby noddy » Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:13 pm

Goalposts moved.

Explain how new species is new information and progress rather than just variation.
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Re: Evolution

Postby Yukon Cornelius » Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:01 pm

noddy wrote:Goalposts moved.

Explain how new species is new information and progress rather than just variation.

No, that was part of the original question -- a sufficient observable mechanism. We can observe cyclical variations all over the place; same for broken chemical pathways...
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Re: Evolution

Postby Typhoon » Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:57 am

Yukon Cornelius wrote:Right all around.

But I really, really, really really -- really -- don't want to argue inference here.

I'm looking for a sufficient observable mechanism to do the amount of work/information generation that Evolution needs.


Speciation has been observed:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html
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Re: Evolution

Postby noddy » Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:00 am

:) round and round in circles - i cant be arsed refreshing myself on creationist stuff which cant explain the gondwanaland animals or observable reality for me, you cant be arsed digging into the evolution stuff for the different types of variation and only want to talk about the negative ones from the lets attack evolution pamphlet.

tis a fine basis for an argument, cough discussion, cough.

nice part of a subject like evolution is you can pretty much believe anything, barring some social circles like the creationists and new atheists, their is no penalty for being wrong.

in my mind the aggregated variations over millenia are plenty enough mechanism for creating new species from existing ones, the only part of the story thats less fleshed out and harder to see is the soup to first critter aspect, however that is a god of the gaps argument and of no concern.
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Re: Evolution

Postby Yukon Cornelius » Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:01 am

Typhoon wrote:
Yukon Cornelius wrote:Right all around.

But I really, really, really really -- really -- don't want to argue inference here.

I'm looking for a sufficient observable mechanism to do the amount of work/information generation that Evolution needs.


Speciation has been observed:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html

Yes, it happens quite a bit -- I'm not arguing this at all.
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Re: Evolution

Postby Yukon Cornelius » Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:02 am

noddy wrote:...in my mind the aggregated variations over millenia are plenty enough mechanism...

No inferences allowed!! Shame! Shame!!
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Re: Evolution

Postby noddy » Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:33 am

if anyone comes up with a story that matches the evidence better than evolution i will then consider it the best explanation yet (tm)
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Re: Evolution

Postby Nonc Hilaire » Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:25 pm

Amazingly cool piece for July 4 about Thomas Jefferson, his interminable search for extant mammoths, and his Mr. P like capacity for fussbudgetry with equally fussbudgetish colleagues.
http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/th ... -mastodons
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Re: Evolution

Postby Typhoon » Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:28 pm

Yukon Cornelius wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Yukon Cornelius wrote:Right all around.

But I really, really, really really -- really -- don't want to argue inference here.

I'm looking for a sufficient observable mechanism to do the amount of work/information generation that Evolution needs.


Speciation has been observed:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html

Yes, it happens quite a bit -- I'm not arguing this at all.


The arguments from the creationist/intelligent design camp re the 2nd law of thermodynamics are "not even wrong".
The only time a living thing is in state of thermodynamic equilibrium is once it is dead.
ID is not a credible alternative hypothesis which accounts for all of the observed data.
At best it is a no-go hypothesis which has been shown to be incorrect.

Speciation in evolution has been observed.

So what exactly are you arguing?
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Re: Evolution

Postby Yukon Cornelius » Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:59 pm

You guys.

We Know:
Any fist semester biology student can tell you there are plenty of software packages out that that can model alleles, fitness, and so on in populations. We can observe speciation, adaptation. This isn't arguable because we can predict it and test -- observe -- those predictions.

What we don't know/have:
An observable model that shows that Darwinian processes are sufficient in building new information (and quite a bit of it) in the genome.

That's it. The best I can tell this is still in the realm of inference.
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Re: Evolution

Postby Doc » Fri Jul 03, 2015 1:05 am

Evolution: The science is proven

Image
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Re: Evolution

Postby Typhoon » Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:51 am

Doc wrote:Evolution: The science is proven

Image


Do you really want to go there . . . ?

Christianity. The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-to-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree... yeah, makes perfect sense.


Anyways, this is the sci + tech section, so let's stick to sci and tech arguments.
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Re: Evolution

Postby noddy » Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:08 am

its always nice when science needs to be a moral fable with a wholesome message.
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Re: Evolution

Postby Doc » Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:19 pm

noddy wrote:its always nice when science needs to be a moral fable with a wholesome message.


:lol:
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Re: Evolution

Postby Doc » Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:24 pm

Typhoon wrote:
Doc wrote:Evolution: The science is proven

Image


Do you really want to go there . . . ?

Christianity. The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-to-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree... yeah, makes perfect sense.


Anyways, this is the sci + tech section, so let's stick to sci and tech arguments.


OK Then What is the evolutionary niche of the transgendered? Or is Transgender like a disease one catches? While the theory of evolution I not perfect it is certainly close enough to reality that it can not be faulted with lack of an explanation Therefore the answer must be elsewhere.
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Re: Evolution

Postby Typhoon » Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:30 pm

Doc wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Doc wrote:Evolution: The science is proven

Image


Do you really want to go there . . . ?

Christianity. The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-to-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree... yeah, makes perfect sense.


Anyways, this is the sci + tech section, so let's stick to sci and tech arguments.


OK Then What is the evolutionary niche of the transgendered? Or is Transgender like a disease one catches? While the theory of evolution I not perfect it is certainly close enough to reality that it can not be faulted with lack of an explanation Therefore the answer must be elsewhere.


Nope. The cause is not established so it a god of the gaps issue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of ... d_theories

However, people are born with all kinds of differences/issues/defects due to genetics and/or gestation. Nature is both imperfect and subtle in execution.
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Re: Evolution

Postby Typhoon » Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:33 pm

Yukon Cornelius wrote:You guys.

We Know:
Any fist semester biology student can tell you there are plenty of software packages out that that can model alleles, fitness, and so on in populations. We can observe speciation, adaptation. This isn't arguable because we can predict it and test -- observe -- those predictions.

What we don't know/have:
An observable model that shows that Darwinian processes are sufficient in building new information (and quite a bit of it) in the genome.

That's it. The best I can tell this is still in the realm of inference.


What is the evidence that Darwinian processes are insufficient?
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Re: Evolution

Postby Doc » Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:12 pm

Typhoon wrote:
Doc wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Doc wrote:Evolution: The science is proven

Image


Do you really want to go there . . . ?

Christianity. The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-to-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree... yeah, makes perfect sense.


Anyways, this is the sci + tech section, so let's stick to sci and tech arguments.


OK Then What is the evolutionary niche of the transgendered? Or is Transgender like a disease one catches? While the theory of evolution I not perfect it is certainly close enough to reality that it can not be faulted with lack of an explanation Therefore the answer must be elsewhere.


Nope. The cause is not established so it a god of the gaps issue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of ... d_theories

However, people are born with all kinds of differences/issues/defects due to genetics and/or gestation. Nature is both imperfect and subtle in execution.


So you are saying the transgenderism is a genetic defect? Otherwise I can think of no possible survival value to transgenderism that would e passed on. Give the evidence (I a not sure how solid it is) that transgendered people have above average intelligence I would suggest that it has something to do with the formation of identity in early child hood.

At any rate have a good weekend CS and al.
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Re: Evolution

Postby noddy » Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:28 am

the only explanation ive heard is that the non alpha type males are an evolutionary advantage in helping raise the family and many australian birds also do this.

evolution is working within the context of a group of offspring rather than per offspring and the variations in the personality spectrum suit different roles in the family group.

not everyone is going to fight for new territory and start a new breeding colony, some just help out with the existing one and then raise the chances for success of alphas forming from that group.
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Re: Evolution

Postby Typhoon » Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:15 pm

Doc wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Doc wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Doc wrote:Evolution: The science is proven

Image


Do you really want to go there . . . ?

Christianity. The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-to-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree... yeah, makes perfect sense.


Anyways, this is the sci + tech section, so let's stick to sci and tech arguments.


OK Then What is the evolutionary niche of the transgendered? Or is Transgender like a disease one catches? While the theory of evolution I not perfect it is certainly close enough to reality that it can not be faulted with lack of an explanation Therefore the answer must be elsewhere.


Nope. The cause is not established so it a god of the gaps issue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of ... d_theories

However, people are born with all kinds of differences/issues/defects due to genetics and/or gestation. Nature is both imperfect and subtle in execution.


So you are saying the transgenderism is a genetic defect? Otherwise I can think of no possible survival value to transgenderism that would e passed on. Give the evidence (I a not sure how solid it is) that transgendered people have above average intelligence I would suggest that it has something to do with the formation of identity in early child hood.



I doubt that gender identity is a tabula rasa and is a purely social construct.

There are case histories of boys who had had circumcision accidents and the decision was made to raise them as girls including hormone therapy and gender reassignment surgery.

Some agenda driven psychologists did very well claiming that such cases demonstrated that gender identity was a purely social construct whereas the reality was that such individuals did not accept their assigned gender and, in one infamous case, this lead to suicide.

Doc wrote:At any rate have a good weekend CS and al.


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Re: Evolution

Postby Doc » Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:02 pm

Typhoon wrote:
Doc wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Doc wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Doc wrote:Evolution: The science is proven

Image


Do you really want to go there . . . ?

Christianity. The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-to-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree... yeah, makes perfect sense.


Anyways, this is the sci + tech section, so let's stick to sci and tech arguments.


OK Then What is the evolutionary niche of the transgendered? Or is Transgender like a disease one catches? While the theory of evolution I not perfect it is certainly close enough to reality that it can not be faulted with lack of an explanation Therefore the answer must be elsewhere.


Nope. The cause is not established so it a god of the gaps issue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of ... d_theories

However, people are born with all kinds of differences/issues/defects due to genetics and/or gestation. Nature is both imperfect and subtle in execution.


So you are saying the transgenderism is a genetic defect? Otherwise I can think of no possible survival value to transgenderism that would e passed on. Give the evidence (I a not sure how solid it is) that transgendered people have above average intelligence I would suggest that it has something to do with the formation of identity in early child hood.



I doubt that gender identity is a tabula rasa and is a purely social construct.

There are case histories of boys who had had circumcision accidents and the decision was made to raise them as girls including hormone therapy and gender reassignment surgery.

Some agenda driven psychologists did very well claiming that such cases demonstrated that gender identity was a purely social construct whereas the reality was that such individuals did not accept their assigned gender and, in one infamous case, this lead to suicide.


And quite often in countries like Afghanistan boys are groomed to behave like women that turns into life long behavior. This is much more common than sex reassignment of young boys and even babies

Doc wrote:At any rate have a good weekend CS and al.


Thanks I did. See the Astronomy thread.

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Re: Evolution

Postby Typhoon » Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:04 pm

Doc wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Doc wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Doc wrote: . . .

Anyways, this is the sci + tech section, so let's stick to sci and tech arguments.


OK Then What is the evolutionary niche of the transgendered? Or is Transgender like a disease one catches? While the theory of evolution I not perfect it is certainly close enough to reality that it can not be faulted with lack of an explanation Therefore the answer must be elsewhere.


Nope. The cause is not established so it a god of the gaps issue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of ... d_theories

However, people are born with all kinds of differences/issues/defects due to genetics and/or gestation. Nature is both imperfect and subtle in execution.


So you are saying the transgenderism is a genetic defect? Otherwise I can think of no possible survival value to transgenderism that would e passed on. Give the evidence (I a not sure how solid it is) that transgendered people have above average intelligence I would suggest that it has something to do with the formation of identity in early child hood.



I doubt that gender identity is a tabula rasa and is a purely social construct.

There are case histories of boys who had had circumcision accidents and the decision was made to raise them as girls including hormone therapy and gender reassignment surgery.

Some agenda driven psychologists did very well claiming that such cases demonstrated that gender identity was a purely social construct whereas the reality was that such individuals did not accept their assigned gender and, in one infamous case, this lead to suicide.


And quite often in countries like Afghanistan boys are groomed to behave like women that turns into life long behavior. This is much more common than sex reassignment of young boys and even babies


No. Bacha bazi is slavery, pederasty, and rape.
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Re: Evolution

Postby Doc » Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:23 am

Typhoon wrote:
Doc wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Doc wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Doc wrote: . . .

Anyways, this is the sci + tech section, so let's stick to sci and tech arguments.


OK Then What is the evolutionary niche of the transgendered? Or is Transgender like a disease one catches? While the theory of evolution I not perfect it is certainly close enough to reality that it can not be faulted with lack of an explanation Therefore the answer must be elsewhere.


Nope. The cause is not established so it a god of the gaps issue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of ... d_theories

However, people are born with all kinds of differences/issues/defects due to genetics and/or gestation. Nature is both imperfect and subtle in execution.


So you are saying the transgenderism is a genetic defect? Otherwise I can think of no possible survival value to transgenderism that would e passed on. Give the evidence (I a not sure how solid it is) that transgendered people have above average intelligence I would suggest that it has something to do with the formation of identity in early child hood.



I doubt that gender identity is a tabula rasa and is a purely social construct.

There are case histories of boys who had had circumcision accidents and the decision was made to raise them as girls including hormone therapy and gender reassignment surgery.

Some agenda driven psychologists did very well claiming that such cases demonstrated that gender identity was a purely social construct whereas the reality was that such individuals did not accept their assigned gender and, in one infamous case, this lead to suicide.


And quite often in countries like Afghanistan boys are groomed to behave like women that turns into life long behavior. This is much more common than sex reassignment of young boys and even babies


No. Bacha bazi is slavery, pederasty, and rape.


Not from what I understand. Often when the boys are older they inherit money from their former predators and then become the predators.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 11529.html



Many “chai boys” are now semi-formal apprentices to their powerful male companions. Military officials have observed that Afghan families with an abundance of children are often keen to provide a son to a warlord or government official — with full knowledge of the sexual ramifications — in order to gain familial prestige and monetary compensation. Whereas bacha bazi is now largely consensual and non-violent, its evolution into an institutionalized practice within rural Pashtun and Tajik society is deeply disturbing.

Pedophilia and Islam

The fact that bacha bazi, which has normalized sodomy and child abuse in rural Afghan society, developed within a deeply fundamentalist Islamic region of the world is mystifying. According to a 2009 Human Terrain Team study titled “Pashtun Sexuality,” Pashtun social norms dictate that bacha bazi is not un-Islamic or homosexual at all — if the man does not love the boy, the sexual act is not reprehensible, and is far more ethical than defiling a woman.

Sheltered by their pastoral setting and unable to speak Arabic — the language of all Islamic texts — many Afghans allow social customs to trump religious values, including those Quranic verses eschewing homosexuality and promiscuity. Warlords who have exploited Islam for political or personal means have also promulgated tolerance for bacha bazi. The mujahideen commanders are a perfect example of this — they fought communism in the name of jihad and mobilized thousands of men by promoting Islam, while sexually abusing boys and remaining relatively secular themselves.

Tragic Consequences

The rampant paedophilia has a number of far-reaching detrimental consequences on Afghanistan's development into a functional nation. The first — and most obvious — consequence of bacha bazi is the irreparable abuse inflicted on its thousands of victims.

Because it is so common, a significant percentage of the country's male population bears the deep psychological scars of sexual abuse from childhood. Some estimates say that as many as 50 percent of the men in the Pashtun tribal areas of southern Afghanistan take boy lovers, making it clear that paedophilia is a pervasive issue affecting entire rural communities. Many of the prominent Pashtun men who currently engage in bacha bazi were likely abused as children; in turn, many of today's adolescent victims will likely become powerful warlords or government-affiliated leaders with boy lovers of their own, perpetuating the cycle of abuse.

A second corrupting, and perhaps surprising, consequence of bacha bazi is its negative impact on women's rights in Afghanistan. It has become a commonly accepted notion among Afghanistan's latent homosexual male population that “women are for children, and boys are for pleasure.” Passed down through many generations and spurred by the vicious cycle created by the pedophile-victim relationship, many Afghan men have lost their attraction towards the opposite gender. Although social and religious customs still heavily dictate that all men must marry one or more women and have children, these marriages are often devoid of love and affection, and are treated as practical, mandated arrangements.

While the Afghan environment has grown more conducive to improving women's social statuses, the continued normalization of bacha bazi will perpetuate the traditional view of women as second-class citizens — household fixtures meant for child-rearing and menial labor, and undeserving of male attraction and affection.

The third unfortunate consequence of bacha bazi is its detrimental bearing on the perpetual state of conflict in Afghanistan, especially in the southern Pashtun-dominated countryside. Because paedophilia and sodomy were, and remain, a main point of contention between the Islamist Taliban and traditional Pashtun warlords, the widespread nature of bacha bazi likely continues to fuel the Taliban's desire to reassert sharia law. The adolescent victims are vulnerable to Taliban intimidation and may be used to infiltrate the Afghan government and security forces.


[Mod. Science unrelated comment moved to the LGBT thread.]
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Re: Evolution

Postby Typhoon » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:26 am

Because it is so common, a significant percentage of the country's male population bears the deep psychological scars of sexual abuse from childhood. Some estimates say that as many as 50 percent of the men in the Pashtun tribal areas of southern Afghanistan take boy lovers, making it clear that paedophilia is a pervasive issue affecting entire rural communities. Many of the prominent Pashtun men who currently engage in bacha bazi were likely abused as children; in turn, many of today's adolescent victims will likely become powerful warlords or government-affiliated leaders with boy lovers of their own, perpetuating the cycle of abuse.


A cycle of non-consensual pederasty, sexual abuse, and rape.

Anyone can be brutalized into anything. That does not make it their nature.

The same could just as easily be done to you.
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Re: Evolution

Postby Doc » Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:18 am

Typhoon wrote:
Because it is so common, a significant percentage of the country's male population bears the deep psychological scars of sexual abuse from childhood. Some estimates say that as many as 50 percent of the men in the Pashtun tribal areas of southern Afghanistan take boy lovers, making it clear that paedophilia is a pervasive issue affecting entire rural communities. Many of the prominent Pashtun men who currently engage in bacha bazi were likely abused as children; in turn, many of today's adolescent victims will likely become powerful warlords or government-affiliated leaders with boy lovers of their own, perpetuating the cycle of abuse.


A cycle of non-consensual pederasty, sexual abuse, and rape.

Anyone can be brutalized into anything. That does not make it their nature.

The same could just as easily be done to you.


My point is that it can be done. I can imagine someone gay saying they were born gay. But perhaps they weren't and it is learned behavior that was not from them being brutalized. Hard to prove one way or another with out doing extremely unethical studies. We will know in a few years just the same.
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